So, I'm making a cheat sheet for a new Shadowrun group, and suddenly noticed that old thing, the Gymnastic Dodge. I would like my players to able to use it (it is flavorful, if nothing else), but the wording confuses me. It simply states that a character may add her Gymnastics skill to any dodge POOL she makes - does this not imply that Gymnastics is automatically added to any dodge attempt? Rea+Gymnastics without dropping an action, Rea+Dodge+Gym on full dodge, and Gym added to any dodge pool in melee? It must be a woolly wording, otherwise all characters could just up their gymnastics for astronomic dodge pools.

When, and how, is the Gymnastic Dodge modifier applied?

Gymnastics Dodge is an undercategory of Full Defense. You can either use Full Dodge, Full Parry or Gymnastics Dodge.

Correct. Gymnastics Dodge is listed under Full Defense on page 160 of SR4A. The actual wording of Gymnastics Dodge is that it is added to the "dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks," not the "dodge pool."

As a House-Rule you can allow Gymnastics Dodge to be used in melee attacks as well (instead of Weaponskill [Parry] or Dodge).

All right, thanks a lot!

This sentence makes no sense, as you (and the rulebook) already stated that gymnastics dodge can be used in melee

I meant as part of the normal defense. It can be used as part of a Full Defense, giving up your next action, but I was referring to the normal defense roll you are entitled to when attacked in melee.

You only add your gymnastics skill rating to the check right?
As in Reaction+Gymnastics not Reaction+Gymnastics+Agility

Yes - and because the book says skill rating, and not skill, i wonder if the boni from synthacardium and enhanced articulation would apply.

I would allow any dicepool modifiers for Gymnastics to add to Gymnastics Dodge. For example, Adept's abilities and Reflex Recorders.

I have heard of groups that do allow this. Defense pool can get insane.

Synthacardium 3, Enhanced Articulation, Neo-Epo and Reflex Recorder - thats a +6 Bonus, nice ^^

Yup, and unless you're in melee combat you're giving up a IP for it. Nice trade-off in my opinion.

In all the games I've played I don't think I've ever gone on Full Defense.

"How did you do that?"
"Do what?"
"You moved like they do, I've never seen anyone move that fast"
"Not fast enough"

The book actually says "Skill", not skill rating.


So yeah. Anything that enhances the skill, enhances the dodge. Doesn't matter, IMO.
Allowing it in normal close combat instead of full defense is a house rule, though one I've seen used commonly. Still doesn't matter, IMO

Giving up an IP is no difference to the dodge skill, btw, or what did you mean by that, Neraph?

Firstly the rule aren't cut and dried as to whether you can add synthacardium and other dice pool modifiers to these. Some say it's not an athletics test it's a ranged defense test which only happens to use the skill. I tend to fall in favor of allowing it though as it is using an athletics skill in a test, but some GM's might not agree. That said, skill modifiers which augment the skill value directly (like reflex records) would always apply here though. That's an important distinction to make... SR has dice pool modifiers which are added to the entire pool... and skill modifiers which change the value of the skill you add.


Also it's a lousy house rule to allow it for normal mundane melee defense. The gymnastics option only pertains to full defense. The pools which result make melee even LESS desirable. A bad outcome, melee is reasonably good now... in the don't bring a knife to a gunfight mold... but it doesn't need gymnastics non-combat skill cheese destroying it even more without forcing the target to go on full defense as per the rules.


Page 156 of the rules makes this very clear... under defending against melee combat. Gymnastics is not listed at all as an option. It's the reason why people only recommend gymnastics dodge if you already have a melee skill. Because unlike the dodge skill you can't add 2x your dodge to the melee defense test, you can only add melee + gymnastics to a full defense.

RAW is:
Normal attack:
Ranged: Reaction
Melee: Reaction (+ melee/dodge)

Full defense options choose to use one:
Full dodge
Ranged: reaction + dodge
Melee: Reaction + melee/dodge + dodge (you can add your dodge twice if its better than your melee skill)

Full parry
Ranged: no bonus... Reaction only
Melee: Reaction + melee + melee (you get twice your melee)

Full gymnastics:
Ranged: Reaction + gymnastics
melee: Reaction + melee + gymnastics

Well, for me a test using an attribute (reaction) and a skill (dodge or gymnastics) is a skill test. Hence I allow it
I don't allow it in close combat except for full defense, for the reasons you've stated falconer, and the recommendation is also valid.

Well, it is more or less necessary if you don't have magical/surgical IP bonuses, and are out of Edge.

'Course, people rarely get to that point, but some people do play 1 IP characters

Actually it also works nicely going the other way... street sam dodge monkey kicks door down... charges in on full defense. Draws a lot of fire... does it maybe one more round if the mooks have a 2nd pass... then proceeds to use his 3rd and 4th pass to demolish targets after they've blown their wad.

Full defense works when you have an initiative advantage.

Also full defense doesn't stop movement.... so it's a great way to spend one IP getting to cover without getting shot to pieces. It's also a great tactic for a melee type... full defense for a round while you close range.

Then there's the melee specialist types with 2 weapon defense who are always on full defense against melee...

Of course many people go for peace through superior firepower instead... which has it's advantages they just potentially take more damage in the process.

First, chill-pill. Second, note that I clearly stated using Gymnastics was a House-Rule. Third, also note that I said I personally would allow modifiers to be added. Anyone remotely familiar with how I operate on this board would know that I always give book, page, section, and usually paragraph and even sentence notation when I quote rules.

Gymnastics as a dodge is kind of odd. gymnastics aren't something you do in one place, it takes you over distances doing flips, and cart wheels.
Personally I would require them to move a minimum distance before they can use gymnastics to dodge.

I'm also considering a house rule that allows you to make a gymnastics check when moving as a simple action. how ever many hits you get, get added to any defense pools that turn

so if you run, and use a simple action to do gymnastics, you roll your gymnastics skill. if you get 5 hits, then whenever you have to roll a defense then you add 5 dice to the pool.

Nevertheless, it's RAW and in the book. I like it as it doesn't mean, everyone has to buy the dodge skill. Alternatives are good.

Your houserule is intriguing, but keep in mind, that it usually takes a full complex action to use a skill.

it would be like sprint.
to sprint is a simple action and you make a run check to go faster
for this it's a simple action, and you make a gymnastics check to be a harder target.

I make a habit of never bringing "reality works this way, therefore..." Into rule discussions. Because movement in SR is decoupled from all but the most basic actions you can't really draw parallels to a system like D&D where movement is a major investment.
As I see it, when you use gymnastics dodge you don't necessarily stay in the same 1m/1m area, but rather cartwheel, drops/stands and acrobat your way out of danger in the same general area meaning you end up in the same location, unless ofcourse you stay at one of the locations you winded up at (free action to move there)
If you look at melee combat it's described as a series of exchanges rather then "hit guy, wait around to get punched".

PS Heeey you got a face Bannock

Yeh. The old dwarf needed one

To keep ontopic: Yeah, in tight surroundings I sometimes slap players who want to gymnastics dodge with a penalty, when it seems appropriate.

I sometimes do the "reality works this way". It depends on the game and the situation.
Shooting a crossbow like ten times as an attack (it's a 4.0 rogue power), I call BS on. That's not how crossbows work.

But I don't mind being able to reload a wind-lass crossbow in 6 seconds vs. a minute or more. I also don't mind the fast reload feat that lets you load lighter crossbows as a free action. It all depends.
I'll buy loading a crossbow fast, but I don't buy firing one off like a machine gun (repeating crossbows are the exception, and they are cool).

doesn't bother me as much, but I don't buy how daily powers work in 4.0.
"I already swung my sword that way today, I can't do it again!"

In shadowrun, I tend to use a variation; "movies work this way"
The rules for vehicle combat make it so anyone with 1 ip can't do anything. the drivers all lose 1 ip just for driving. maaaaaybe this is realistic. I don't know, Haven't rode a motorcycle while shooting off handguns to find out.
I don't like it because it makes combat less cinematic. you don't get that guy on the motorcycle driving with one hand and spraying lead with the other. and if you want to just throw a lot of un-augmented grunts at them, then they can only drive up and look at them funny.
So next time vehicles come up i'm house ruling that controlling the vehicle is a simple , and any uncompensated recoil becomes a penalty to your driving check
more cinematic that way,

That would really inflate full dodge, which is basically the same, but costs a complex action.

Actually, the rules do not MANDATE that you use an IP for control rolls, they just provide a consequence if you do not. *shrug*

@Tiberius. As the driver you do the driving. Your passengers can do the shooting, it's called riding shotgun for a reason.
However if you really need to drive and shoot. You could tell the car "take the wheels!" and if his pilot and manuveur autosoft is decent you should be fine (works with MCs to, just need a gyro upgrade) or you could install a turret in your gun and give the car some targetting autosoft. Then you could tell the car "Shoot for me!". Alternatively you could do both (turret needs his own pilot then although) and take a fag while your car drives and shoots for you.
Technology! gotta love it...
You could also have a spirit use movement to move the vehicle I think

You both need to watch more Jackie Chan movies then.


Pretty much.

Good advice for anyone, really.

Gymnastics are as much about fine control over your body movement as they are about large, sweeping moves. We just tend to find the intricate large maneuvers more fun to watch. I could easily argue that if you wanted to use dodge against a burst or shotgun you have to take some movement with it as well, because you can't simply sidestep it.

Jackie Chan <3

Keep in mind that mr. Lung has been training since the age of four, so his Gymnastics is probably through the roof. Still, high dice pools does not allow you to ignore modifiers. Perhaps we need a Jackie Chan positive quality..!

Jackie is probably just a Gymnastics 5 (maybe 6) spec'd for Gymnastics Dodge. There are people in this world better in gymnastics than him, but he's focused on the dodging aspect.

Jackie Chan from drunken master = Adept with condition geas?

The condition being that he has to do silly things while engaged in combat?

I would view the difference between various dodge types as:

Dodge, the skill, is about watching your opponents and minimizing your exposure to danger. In the case of melee, you're watching an opponents hips and shoulders to see where a strike is coming from so that you can avoid it. In the case of ranged, you're watching where the opponent is pointing their weapon, and doing your very best to not be standing there. This is the most generalized, and proactive form of defense, which is why Dodge is used for vehicles, guns and fighting.

Parry is about meeting blows with blows. Skill and training vs. skill and training. Sure you're watching how they're moving and responding like with dodge, but in this case you're blocking rather than avoiding. Also, it's very limited, in that it relies on a niche, hence the melee only.

Gymnasitc dodge is significantly different in that it's not reactive but preventative. You're moving your body in ways that are hard to anticipate so that when someone tries to strike you, you're not there. Against ranged attacks, that's not too different than what Dodge is about, but vs. melee, it's not as effective since a strike effects a larger area.

Well... yeah... but I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy being a human shield.

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I've never gone on full defense either, though I do play a sniper. I've more or less eschewed the dodge skill and instead focus my defense through gymnastics dodge, or using unarmed combat/blades in melee if things actually get that bad.

As others have said, you can still move while using full defense so since I do have a cranked up gymnastics pool, it's highly effective for ranged defense.

The GM and I are pretty good about not trying to screw each other over too much. As in, I don't generally be a sniper unless the mission dictates that I must behave like a sniper (instead I actually infiltrator the facility with a slightly heavier weapon loadout) and he doesn't through opposition at me specifically to counter me if I'm being properly careful about my position.

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I don't think we're typically fighting guards in the megacorp using conveniently placed scenery that provides a hilariously awesome combat sequence because all the guards are too stupid to realize they have a gun.

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Some of the stuff you can see in Cirque du Soleil can be very indicative of the fine body control, not all... just some. A lot of these are all very body strength intensive. I saw Mystere in Vegas and there was one part in the show featuring two men moving from one position to another. Purposefully and slowly. You could tell these two guys were ridiculously toned. They concluded that act with one guy lying on his back, supporting the other guy in a handstand. The guy on the ground then contorted his body so he was lying in the opposite direction face down, or something like that. Anyway it was ridiculous.

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Parry is about deflecting blows. Blocking is about stopping the blow. Dodging is the third type of melee defense.

An unarmed block would be using your arms or legs to stop the attack. Let's say your opponent sweeps his leg up to try to kick you in your side. A block would be using your forearms or shin to stop the kick. A parry would be using your arms to push his leg down enough so that he doesn't hit you.

With weapons, a block would be stopping the sword swing with your own sword blade. A parry would be striking the sword with your own so the blade goes wide.

"The shin bone is the hardest bone in the body, now imagine a guy that trained for years perfecting his ability to kick the shit out of people... You don't want to block that kick with your arms, the bones in your arm is softer, it would snap like a twig. When someone kick you with the hardest bone in their body, you either block with the hardest bone in your body or you get the hell out of the way"
- What a kick boxing trainer told me explaining how to block.

The funny thing about shadowrun is, you can block a monowhip with unarmed combat ^^

Just not effectively. Unarmed engaged with an opponent using a melee weapon gives them a -4 (?) on defense tests plus the attacker has the reach bonus of the whip as well.

Where do you get that -4 rule from? It is neither in the SR4A defense modifiers table, nor in the "more ways to die" section in arsenal.

Maybe I'm pulling it from a different ruleset.

Given that the Dodge Skill and the Gymnastics (Dodge) Skill (specialization) are different Skills, to the point of being linked to different Attributes, there must be something different in their behaviour. Therefore, they should operate differently, and in different situations.

Using the Matrix example alluded to earlier, Neo bending over backwards to avoid the bullets shot by an Agent looks to me like a Dodge action. Elsewhere, Neo cartwheeling from one pillar to another to avoid gunfire looks to me like a Gymnastics (Dodge) action. That's how I would run things in my game.

You mean limbo isn't covered by gymnastics, but rather, dodging? I didn't know the whole point was to dodge the bar

Fixed, thank you.


He's wrong though. The temporal bone is the hardest to break, the femur is stronger than concrete, and the mandible deserves special mention also. All of which are stronger than the shin. The kickboxer you talked to was mislead because of the training he's done to his shin bones.

Let's be honest, unless you're a Krogan, how often do you expect to be using your temporal or mandible to injure people by striking them? So of the four bones listed, the shin is the most pliable to striking another.

Limbo is covered by gymnastics, because limbo doesn't have the very strict time requirements that a successful dodge needs.

True, but that's not the claim that was made. From the quote, the kickboxer was asserting that the shin bone was the strongest bone in the body. That is factually inaccurate (ie: wrong).

To be fair, a proper block is not about stopping a blow, but deflecting it. That takes a lot less strength and durability on the part of the limb doing the blocking.

The distinction between a block and parry is a lot easier to define with weapons than unarmed combat if you can even say that there is a distinction for unarmed combat.