Well, the launchers/non-launchers split makes more sense than the original longarms/automatics/pistols. What is about the Firearms skills group?

You could take it, I guess but there's not much point when there's only two skills that would qualify for it.

Um, yes, yes they most definitely are quite different. IRL, I mean. And I speak from (limited, but nonzero) first-hand experience.


Here's what my houserule for firearms skills is/was:

Firearms Skills There is no such skill as “Automatics”; that is instead a specialisation of other skills. Skills in the Firearms Group include Pistols (Holdouts, Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols, SMGs), Longarms (SMGs, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Battle Rifles, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles), and Heavy Weapons (Grenade launchers, Assault Cannons, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs).

Yes, that means SMGs can be fired using either Pistols or Longarms. Knock yourselves out.

Well, i only have experience with the MG74 (a MG 42 clone), which weights a ton (actually 12kg without ammo or tripod). The only thing that is really different to operating a (battle-)rifle is the belt-feed*, and the employed tactics. But the firearms skill is about pulling the trigger and hitting stuff, not about the decision when (and where) to use supressive fire or precision fire.

*when the MG is used with the bipod. Tripod shooting a MG42/MG3/MG74 is actually really different - no (felt) recoil, and very accurate with 4x optics. It is much easier to hit something with the tripod.

Why did you feel there was a need for a change?
I mean admittedly Automatics is by far the best and Pistols the worst but it balances out the firearms vs close combat group to equal number of skills.
and while in practice most heavy weapons is not that different from a normal firearm I think that keeping heavy weapons excempt on the group is good for the same reason that the exotic weapon skill exist, balance.
beats me why throwing and archery is special snowflakes although... Archaic weapon group?

Same as ours, basically, except firearms group doesn't exist (since HW isn't under it) and we split HW for some reason.

It's also a nice change since it makes certain archetypes easier to take into an infiltration. Your sniper (unless he invests as heavily in automatics or pistols) isn't going to be good at awkward ranges (shotgun vs sniper rifle). By consolidating, you give the sniper SMG, assault rifles, and battle rifles for the infiltration which lets him provide similar longer ranged fire support in the internal environment.

It gives the pistol user a bit of a heavier option with the SMG (yes it has lower damage/ap but you make up for it with fire rate).

--



Us personally? We have a much smaller group (three characters) and all characters are combat heavies in their own right. Consolidating the skills made it a bit easier to play our archetypes while allowing a bit more diversity in non-combat skills. There's other reasons why it's a good change that I and others have listed out but I think that was the motivating factor.

How you hold the weapon also factors in. Otherwise, if you reduce it to the point in the quoted snippet above? There's no difference between a pistol, a crossbow, and an over-the-shoulder missile launcher.

Only if you run in a jungle or in deep africa (or just look at the mechanics). The Pistols skill is the most used combat skill in my group, at least 60% of all PC attack rolls is pistols. The rest of the rolls are divided by automatics (one player has an ares executive protector SMG), spellcasting and exotic ranged: monofilament bolas (yes, one player is crazy). 2 players own sniper rifles, but neither got a chance to use it yes.

Because unless you have a hard-on for shotguns, or are making a sniper, or want a "gunslinger" ... there's absolutely zero reason not to have Automatics, and very little reason to have anything but Automatics.

I don't mind there beign a go-to skill for something. But I do mind there being a "go-to-or-you're-stupid" skill, for anything.


If I could find a third skill to put in with those two, that wasn't too much of a stretch? I would, and yes, "Archaic Missile Weapons Group" would sound just fine to me.

Sure. But is holding an LMG that different from holding a rifle? On a MG74, it is not that different if you can manage the 13kg (unless tripod-mounted, ofc). And that thing is a 7.62x51 GPMG.

Automatics includes Machine Pistols.

So one skill can cover "small and easily concealed" (the Izom Armaments RP-63A Machine Pistol, SA/BF/BF-L/BF-Lx2, 5P and AP-1) ... and also "big loud and powerful" (any battle rifle), and several points in between.

IOW, the Automatics skill literally does it all.

Most of the time? Yes, IMO and IMLE.

Pistols requires the situation to be pliable to them for usage. Longarms is in the same boat. The problem for longarms is that the only suitable infiltration weapon in the group is shotguns which come with their own issue.

I'm a fan of consolidating weapon skills wherever it makes sense.

I would almost prefer the following for weapon skills.... Unarmed, Melee, Throwing, Pistols, Longarms, Heavy Weapons, Drawn (Archery/Crossbows). Then include a two tier specialization. The first tier includes a weapon group and the 2nd tier includes a specific weapon. Certain groups would not work as well due to a lack of options in them (most notably unarmed). I think that could be fixed by subdividing out weapon groups a bit more, especially among melee weapons (1 handed blade, 2 handed blade, etc).

If you consider a concealment rating of +2 small, then yes. I do not. Also, that Izom monster costs a ton, and my players tend to ditch weapons after a fight - could get really expensive over time with that thing.

Possibly if the only thing you do is crunch numbers. If one is making a soldier, then they should have the entire group, and generally--at least from my experience--most civilians would go through something of a "progression" when learning to shoot. In terms of the skills, it'd probably go from Longarms (BB/Pellet guns and Shotguns) to Pistols to Automatics (and generally pretty rare getting all the way to that point).

What das IMLE stand for? Well, looks like we disagree about this matter and we both have some experience with MGs (i was 4yrs in the Austrian Army, but i have only basic MG training).

Knocking that down to a -3 is trivial and there's other options to inflict at least another -2 penalty on the perception check to find it. Add on top that's it's a check palming + agility opposed against intuition + perception (what gun character doesn't have an amped up agility score) and it's pretty easy to conceal.

That's all ignoring that other perception modifiers will apply so if you're going about in poorly illuminated areas you'll get even more penalties stacked onto the foe.

Also depending on the country you learn to shoot - in Austria, most male civilians > 18yrs (~60-70%) have (limited) experience with automatics (assault rifle), and some with heavy weapons (mostly MG, some rocket launchers) and pistols (Medics, Machine Gunners, AFV Crewman, sports marksmenship), a few have longarms (snipers, hunters, sports marksmanship) or gunnery (AFV gunners) -> Compulsory military service, and a low rate of civilian owned firearms.

Such we discovered why the Lined coat is one of the best armors in the basebook.

Nothing you can't fix with a Barrel Reduction, a concealable holster, and a long coat (or equivalent).


So, go with Izom's RP-71. 4P, AP-1, FA capable, base price is only 750¥.

Add a personalised grip, auto-adjusting underbarrel weight, and that barrel reduction I mentioend. Then go with an Accessory GasVent 3. All told, you've got 4 points of RComp. Load it with Ex-ex, and you're rocking 5P/AP-2 attacks, BF for 8P, FA for 11P. Concealability is only 1 worse than a Heavy Pistol.

And, you can fire that, an SMG, an AR, and a BR all with the exact same skill. Which means you're likely to have that single skill higher, than the two skills you need if you actually go with a heavy pistol instead.

Also, not everyone throws their guns away after every run. My characters tend to go with Caseless ammo ..... and buy (or make) new barrels after every run. More than sufficient to throw the police off (or whoever), and allows them to play with much nicer, more-capable toys as well.

IMLE = "in my limited experience". I've less experience with live weaposn than, say, Tymaeus. But I've more experience than most typical civilians here in the U.S.

Absoltuely, positively not true.

I enlisted int he U.S. Army, remember. Picked the Combat Engineer (12B) MOS. And you know, there's only two weapons they train CEs with: grenades, and assault rifles. Everything else is optional.

Well, okay, "grenades, assault rifles, and blowing bridges up while the other unlucky S.O.B.'s are halfway across" ... ha!


Honestly, that's the biggest thing I miss from SR3 and earlier: the Skill Web, for figuring defaults.

Joe the Hunter, who at least has good skill with a sporting rifle and a shotgun, should do better than his identical twin, Bob the Accountant, who's never touched any sort of firearm in his life, when both of them pick up assault rifles to try and fight off a pack of ravenous ghouls down at the stuffer shack ...

I don't for the simple reason of the KISS principle. It is much better to just default to the attribute than to have to either memorize or look up what skill defaults to what skill and which ones go to the attribute.

Well, we play a very black trenchcoat campaign in Manhatten. Using Ex-Ex or non-silenced fire gets a NYPD drone to them in less than 30s (unless in security Zone C or less). Also, this thing costs 4-5 times of an Ares Predator, and has 6 points of RC, not 4. You forgot to calculate the underbarrel weight.

I don't see what prevents them from shooting the drone out of the sky, which is easier to do with a bigger gun.

Well, if the drone is flying then it just needs to hover at an altitude of 63m and they can't hit it with their pistols. 70m and the drone will be safe from anyone who put a barrel extension on their pistol.

Exactly! More dakka is the answer!

Depending on the location, this is an option - not so much in most parts of manhatten, ofc. Every ***** thing in manhatten is monitored, and if you walk around without broadcasting your SIN, you get a police response. With combat drone backup, including a blimp sniper drone if heavy armament or resistance is detected.

If you want subtle instead, the RP-71 is still suitable. For 2800¥, you can get an RP-71 with Electronic firing, an integral Suppressor, and a Reduced Barrel. Load it with SnS, and you're doing 6S(e) versus half their impact armor. Silently. With the option of going full-auto. And still using the same skill that drives your SMG (small, subtle, high ROF, reasonable damage), your AR (larger, louder, high ROF, good damage), and your BR (double-duty as an AR, and a Sport or Sniper rifle).

I fail to see how more dakka wouldn't solve that...

Sure, SnS. Want an MRSI Trollbow that shoots emotitoys? (I know that this makes no sense, but should show what my group thinks about SnS).

Also, a taser does exactly the same damage, but more silent. For 250nY incl. the laser sight, without the hassle of having a right license.

Detecting the sniper drone before it kills you is the problem. Or before you are sprayed with various stun gas grenades. More dakka does not help with seeing stuff, it only motivates the other side to bring more dakka. And the other side has more dakka than you.

KE is eagerly to take the policing contract for Manhatten, if NYPD screws up by letting a terrorist attack happen in the city the Corporate Court resides in. NYPD has a reputation to loose, and unresolved terrorist attacks could prove fatal for them, especially if they are convicted of using less force as neccessary.

(a) Tasers have a much lower ammunition capacity - generally 4(m). The RP-71 has a capacity of 25©
(b) Reloading the RP-71 takes only two simple actions (one free and oen simple, if you get a smartgun). Reloading a Taser takes a simple and at least one complex action, IIRC.
© Tasers are _not_ more silent than a suppressed, electronic-firing gun.
(d) the RP-71 can fire SnS, or it can fire capsule rounds, or it can fire RFID Tag rounds, or it can fire Ex-Ex, or ... well, you get the idea. Tasers fire ONLY Taser darts.
(e) If needed, sticking the barrel of a machine pistol in someone's face, is going to be MUCH more intimidating than sticking the business end of a taser in the same person's face.

a: true
b: Reloading a taser takes 1 complex action if you have AGI 4+, else 2.
c: actutally, thats GM fiat.
d: true
e: sticking a Defiance EX-Shocker into someones face inflicts 8-12S(e) (called shot)
f: getting your licenses checked: not with a taser
g: 150nY vs ?
h: the right tool for the right task

c: no, it's RAW. An electronic firing, integral-suppressor MP imposes a -7 penalty to the perception pools of anyone trying to notice the firing of the gun; -9 if you go to the length of using subsonic ammunition. Tasers, lacking any of those options, universally impose a -0 penalty. Ergo, sensible or not? A fully-suppressed machine pistol is quieter than any taser ever made - even when firing Ex-Ex! (Note, btw: Ex-Ex isn't "microgrenades"; they're no louder hitting someone than a normal bullet. They just do nastier things to whatever they hit.)

e: you know precisely what I meant.

f: nor with a machine pistol if they never find it in the first place.

g: versus "not disposable". Hence, buying or making new barrels every so often, for probably about ... 150¥ a pop. Maybe 300¥.

h: the right tool for multiple tasks, means you have to own, and carry, fewer tools. "Multirole" is an asset, not a flaw.

c: Well, what about a GM setting the threshold to hear a taser at 12? (I know, that is an exaggeration) Boom, its more silent. There is no given threshold for hearing a taser, therefore it is GM fiat. Same with the Ex-Ex (has a threshold 1 with +2 sound stands out in some way in my games).
f: Cyberwarescanner Rtg. 6. Costs less than your weapon, has lower avail of your weapon, works from 15m afar. Needs 1 hit on 6 dice to find your weapon, gets dp boni if you carry more.

Thresholds above 4 for a test would be highly unusual to say the least. The gun is still applying a -7 penalty while the taser is apply a -0. It means that the gun has a much better chance of forcing a longshot roll than the taser would.

"actutally, thats GM fiat."


Have yu actually read the rules? Apparently not, I have to say.

SR4A, page 136. Several tables, one of them has these entries:

"Obvious / Large / Loud", threshold 1 - examples: neon sign, running crowd, yelling, gunfire;

"Normal", threshold 2 - examples: street sign, average pedestrian, conversation, silenced gunfire;

"Obscure / Small / Muffled", threshold 3 - examples: item dropped under table, contact lens, whispering;

"Hidden / Micro / Silent", threshold 4 - examples: secret door, needle in a haystack, subvocal speech.

I have helpfully underlined the exampels related to sound. Now, I might grant Tasers a threshold of 2, the same as a silenced weapon normally gets. But not a 3, and certainly not higher - a taser shot is NOT as quiet as a whisper.

...

So both have that nice threshold of 2. But even with the +2 for "stands out", the silenced machine pistol still imposes a -5 (or greater) penalty to the observers' die pools, and the taser still has no such penalty.

Ergo, RAW? The taser is louder than a fully-suppressed machine pistol rocking full-auto ExEx.


And these are how common in a standard, ordinary Shadowrun game where the GM is not trying to make life unreasonably difficult for anyone with the slightest degree of cybernetic augmentation?

Also, easy way around THAT: Skin Pocket. Or, if you have a cyberlimb, a holster inside it. Millimeter Wave scanners don't penetrate the skin.

Well, if they dont penetrate the skin, how do they detect any internal cyberware? Like, for instance, a cranial commlink? Or a skillwire system?

Either (a) the writer didn't know what they were talking about, or (b) those implants may have some external component. Like a chip-slot for the skillwires, so you can use them without needing a separate datajack.

Personally, I lean towards (a). Millimeter Wave scanners, both passive and active, are right-now real-world technologies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner

And they don't penetrate skin; they aren't even being considered as replacements for X-ray machins in hospitals, for example, despite the very real health hazard exposure to X-ray radiation poses both to patients and technicians/operators.

Absolutely it is very different. This from lots of personal experience.

You are speaking of 2nd Edition here.

I would actually put a threshold of 4 for the Taser. It is a SILENT weapon, not a SILENCED weapon. Still, with the -7 to -9+ of the Silenced SMG, it is likely that they are both nigh impossible to hear for the average person.

If you can't at least level a city on a whim, you're not packing enuff dakka (and if you can, you still need moar dakka)

You can nevah git enuf dakka.

Just in case, of course.

A taser is NOT completely silent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdjVCbD0So0

It makes about as much noise as a suppressed gunshot when fired, and then there's the sound of the capacitor pulsing charges into the target. Certainly, it's not quieter than whispering.