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Pepsi Jedi
I always thought the bandersnatchii didn't 'exist' very long at all (From infection to violent death, or starvation). When they got infected it was a very very short count down to termination. As pointed out there's just not enough 'food' for them. When you look at their size, that compounds the problem. They're not house cats. It's going to take ALOT of meat to feed those things. And once Sasquatches start showing up, ripped apart and mostly eaten the 'suspect list' is going to be VERY VERY Short. The 'infection' of sasquatch into Bandersnatchii is likely a food source that got away/survived before said psycho big foot was slain, either by it's own people (Where in infection could happen again) Or those turning out for the bounty.

As for the clothing to hide.. ehhhhh. I'm not really buying that one for the Wendigo. If you're 8 to 9 feet tall you're going to stand out no matter what you wear, and unless you're covered head to toe in a bio suit, the white fur is going to stand out even more, along with their faces, claws and fangs. The more you cover up, the more you LOOK like you're trying to cover up. Add in that that fur is going to make clothing look funny (( Like putting a sweater on a dog with lots of fur. lol)). Both draw attention. If you're all decked out in pants, shoes, (Do Wendigo get feet claws as well as hand claws?)) A shirt, jacket or cloak, and hat or hood. You're going to look like..... a wendigo trying to hide that he's a Wendigo.

Even at distance people will think you're some type of troll trying to hide his identity, which raises the very scary question of "Why is that 8 to 9 foot metahuman trying to cover up? And do I want to be around him?"

And before anyone says 'Just shave it" these things are 8 to 9 feet tall. That's ALOT of fur, and it's going to grow back, probably PDQ. And while you're shaved you're going to look even worse. Like a long haired cat that's shaved. lol. Which will in and of itself draw attention.

Lots of interesting thoughts here though.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 7 2013, 07:02 AM) *
There are untold numbers of poor and desperate, and if they're SINless it isn't even considered a crime.

~Umi


I don't agree with that - an SINLess is still a metahuman (at least in most cases) and doing nasty things to them remains sillegal. But since they'e usually far short on money, have no legal rights and almost nil influence, investigation on what happens to them is very far down the priority list. Do something drastic enough to get some media attention in the crime and the cops will get involved. But as long as it's scum killing scum in the Barrens without 'real peoples' (SINners) involved, it's till a crime, but so far down the cop's priority list it might as well be legal.

Say you drag some SINless hobo to the tow ncenter and put a bullet into his head - you're gong to be arrested and prosecuted for murder, not for littering ((oh well, maybe murder AND littering)
Umidori
You probably wouldn't actually be guilty of murder, as I understand it. You'd be guilty of discharging a weapon in a public place, of disturbing the peace, and all that jazz, and you'd be in a lot of trouble if you let yourself get caught. But there's all sorts of fluff in the books to the effect that killing SINless isn't a crime, or even if it technically is, that it effectively isn't.

~Umi
Pepsi Jedi
No, killing SINless is still a crime, it's just not one that is investigated as deeply as killing a SINner. They'll still get you. I think the fluff just shows that of all the things Shadowrunners do all the time, that killing a 'SINless' person is down the list for the Corps and what not (( after all their wage slaves have corp SINs).

It's still illegal and they'll still lock you up if you're caught. Shadowrunners just usually do other things the corps and stuff care about 'more'.
Umidori
I've yet to actually see it spelled out anywhere exactly. Most of what I've found just says the SINless have very few and limited rights, but not what those rights are. And then there is stuff like this...

QUOTE ("GH2 @ p. 40")
> Seattle Metroplex Guard just seized a shipment of these coming in from Portland. They had a tip that the rifles were heading to the Ork Underground. I guess they figured letting the residents arm up before Proposition 23 is voted on was a bad thing.
>Glitch

> It is a bad thing. If we start shooting people that live aboveground, they’ll seal us in and pump in nerve gas. The bummer is that since we’re all SINless, technically that wouldn’t be a crime.
> Bull

Is that just hyperbole?

Being SINless means you don't legally exist. How can killing someone who doesn't exist be a crime?

~Umi
Lionhearted
No one is going to push prosecution of the murder of a SINless, get an off the rack lawyer and you're off the fence, because the defense sure as hell ain't going to have one... Who would pay for it? the state? *snicker*
Sure...
Umidori
I can easily see the corps locking you up for shooting someone in broad daylight in a crowded street, but they'd lock you up for causing a panic, damaging property (when the bullet overpenetrates into the sidewalk), that sort of thing.

But you could abduct a SINless, torture and kill them with a knife in your bathroom, and then go confess your crime to the nearest KE officer and they'd probably give you a thumbs up and send you on your way.

~Umi
Lionhearted
Why do you want to make your landlord miserable? That's just inconsiderate, blood stains are hard to get out you know!
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 7 2013, 04:04 PM) *
I've yet to actually see it spelled out anywhere exactly. Most of what I've found just says the SINless have very few and limited rights, but not what those rights are. And then there is stuff like this...


Is that just hyperbole?

Being SINless means you don't legally exist. How can killing someone who doesn't exist be a crime?

~Umi


Ehh.. not 100% hyperbole. You gotta remember "Bull" is one of the "old" orcs, from the 'first gen' of Shadowrun. he remembers goblinization and the riots and killings after that went down. He's a supporter of the Orc Underground. He's got some old scars from decades of racism aimed at him and his own people. The humanist types are like KKK on Crack and Viagra at the same time. in Shadowrun, atrocities towards the disenfranchised happen all the time by governments or corps. In 2021 all the orcs and trolls were rounded up and put into interment camps. Didn't let them out for a year after it was determined not to be contagious.
After the crash they basicly walled off Redmond. Then the "Night of Rage" in 2038. After which seattle rounded up the orcs and trolls again. Put them in werehouses at the waterfront, which racists set on fire, killing 100s, and riots engulf the city. etc etc etc.

So.... atrocities do happen. Especially to orcs and trolls and what not, but it doesn't mean they're 'legal' and noone would care. If you kill someone infront of a cop you're going to jail. If you're killing lots of people even SINless the cops will eventually come after you. There's just a priority list. Murder is still murder, but you have to prioritize. A Tir prince's murder is going to get alot more cops and work done on it than a ork SINless squatter in the barrens. It's still illegal. Just like now days... robbing someone in south Central LA is still illegal, but the cops when they come aren't going to put in 1000s of work hours trying to find the thief.

So... the post by Bull is pointed, it's from decades of anti Orc and troll prejudice, and.... it might just happen ((Seattle has a HOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRIBLE History with it's metas)) but it's not just a 'given'.

I only got Dirty Tricks last night so I haven't read how the Orc underground thing played out, but they've got an Orc Underground book coming out so I don't think they're all dead
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 7 2013, 04:08 PM) *
I can easily see the corps locking you up for shooting someone in broad daylight in a crowded street, but they'd lock you up for causing a panic, damaging property (when the bullet overpenetrates into the sidewalk), that sort of thing.

But you could abduct a SINless, torture and kill them with a knife in your bathroom, and then go confess your crime to the nearest KE officer and they'd probably give you a thumbs up and send you on your way.

~Umi


Just not true. People are still people. Some just mean more to some than others. If you're stupid enough to kill infront of the cops or in a way that's easy to track down you'll still get arrested. There's no 'Kill all the sinless you want" Crap.

Now.. if you have a WEAK excuse, you MIGHT get away with more. One of the books mentions a human mother getting praised for using a gun to shoot some 'gangsters' in defence of her family. One of the shadow posts says the 'gangsters' where the neighbor orc kids cutting through her yard.

It depends on where you are and who you are, but it's still 'illegal'.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Feb 7 2013, 02:22 PM) *
It depends on where you are and who you are, but it's still 'illegal'.


As is not having a SIN... smile.gif
Umidori
So I stumbled across something I previously was unaware of, that I might work into my Wendigo build.

QUOTE ("Digital Grimoire @ p. 17")
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1

Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1

These spells create illusions designed to feed false information to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic, the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

If I'm reading this right, a mage who casts and sustains Manascape on themselves can make themselves magically appear as whatever they wish?

What are the limits? I know that the Masking metamagic allows you to make yourself look mundane, look more or less magically powerful than you are, or even look like a different kind of astral creature. Does this work the same way?

It seems to operate on roughly the same mechanical basis. Instead of an Opposed Test of Assensing + Intuition vs. Intuition + Magic + Initiation Grade, you have an Opposed Test of Willpower + Counterspelling vs. Spellcasting + Magic, but in either case, unless the other party beats your roll, the "illusion" is complete and convincing.

False Impression and Manascape seem to have some additional benefits, though. Firstly, they're not metamagic - you don't need to be Initiated and don't need to use up an Initiate Power slot. Secondly, it's not limited only to your own aura - you can cast it on pretty much any astral form, and even multiple auras at once, so you can "mask" not only yourself, but all active spells and foci on your person, the background count of the area you're in, and any other auras within that range you might want to tinker with as well.

This almost seems too good to be true, especially for a Wendigo.

I can make my aura look mundane? I can also have most any number of foci active on my person, sustaining other spells for me such as Physical Mask or Improved Reflexes or Combat Sense, and I can hide the auras of those foci and their respective spells as well? I can even hide the aura of the sustained Manascape spell itself, so long as the region I'm masking contains myself or the focus that the Manascape spell is anchored to? And no matter how good someone is at Assensing, no matter if they're using "auto-detection" powers like Magic Sense, so long as they don't penetrate the illusion, they'll never be able to detect my true aura or the foci and spell auras I'm masking?

I could cast Manascape at the highest Force I can manage, perhaps spending edge to help me get an absurd number of hits, casting into a sustaining focus, and in essence mask myself and all my spells and foci including the one sustaining the Manascape spell itself from outside detection/recognition, such that they can ONLY be found out (and subsequently dispelled, et cetera) if people exceed the threshold set by the number of hits on my spellcasting test? And so long as I don't have to pass through wards, I can just let the ward continue to make me look magically normal indefinitely?

Heck, this isn't merely useful for Wendigo and Special Infected - this could be great for finally making proper use of Quickening and Anchoring, which I've always shied away from because the results are always astrally visible. And I'm sure there are other applications too, if only I can think of them.

~Umi
Starmage21
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 19 2013, 11:06 PM) *
So I stumbled across something I previously was unaware of, that I might work into my Wendigo build.


If I'm reading this right, a mage who casts and sustains Manascape on themselves can make themselves magically appear as whatever they wish?

What are the limits? I know that the Masking metamagic allows you to make yourself look mundane, look more or less magically powerful than you are, or even look like a different kind of astral creature. Does this work the same way?

It seems to operate on roughly the same mechanical basis. Instead of an Opposed Test of Assensing + Intuition vs. Intuition + Magic + Initiation Grade, you have an Opposed Test of Willpower + Counterspelling vs. Spellcasting + Magic, but in either case, unless the other party beats your roll, the "illusion" is complete and convincing.

False Impression and Manascape seem to have some additional benefits, though. Firstly, they're not metamagic - you don't need to be Initiated and don't need to use up an Initiate Power slot. Secondly, it's not limited only to your own aura - you can cast it on pretty much any astral form, and even multiple auras at once, so you can "mask" not only yourself, but all active spells and foci on your person, the background count of the area you're in, and any other auras within that range you might want to tinker with as well.

This almost seems too good to be true, especially for a Wendigo.

I can make my aura look mundane? I can also have most any number of foci active on my person, sustaining other spells for me such as Physical Mask or Improved Reflexes or Combat Sense, and I can hide the auras of those foci and their respective spells as well? I can even hide the aura of the sustained Manascape spell itself, so long as the region I'm masking contains myself or the focus that the Manascape spell is anchored to? And no matter how good someone is at Assensing, no matter if they're using "auto-detection" powers like Magic Sense, so long as they don't penetrate the illusion, they'll never be able to detect my true aura or the foci and spell auras I'm masking?

I could cast Manascape at the highest Force I can manage, perhaps spending edge to help me get an absurd number of hits, casting into a sustaining focus, and in essence mask myself and all my spells and foci including the one sustaining the Manascape spell itself from outside detection/recognition, such that they can ONLY be found out (and subsequently dispelled, et cetera) if people exceed the threshold set by the number of hits on my spellcasting test? And so long as I don't have to pass through wards, I can just let the ward continue to make me look magically normal indefinitely?

Heck, this isn't merely useful for Wendigo and Special Infected - this could be great for finally making proper use of Quickening and Anchoring, which I've always shied away from because the results are always astrally visible. And I'm sure there are other applications too, if only I can think of them.

~Umi


If that exists....WHOA
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 20 2013, 07:58 AM) *
If that exists....WHOA


It does...
It is in Digital Grimoire.
Falconer
Masking is far superior. Because it's far harder to pierce masking in SR4. As it's 2 source pool vs 3 source pool. (intuition + assensing vs. initiate grade + magic + intuition). Intuition is hard to pump and any tricks he can use to pump intuition you can as well (pretty much limited to increase attribute spell... outside of some minor qualities like perceptive, and maybe a mentor spirit... there's few ways to add dice to the assensing skill either). After having issues with this a few times we re-read the assensing & perception rules... and figured that the standard perception modifiers applied to assensing as well. (IE: observe in detail if actually doing detailed aura reading on someone, +3, +2 more for aura standing out in some way against the nonliving drab astral shadows on the astral plane).


The only advantage to the spell is the ability to do a blanket area similar to a trid phantasm and things which normally couldn't mask. However, it only works against awakened! The same guys who are going to have counterspelling...

So now you're looking at spellcasting + magic vs. willpower + counterspelling... and it's easy to pump counterspelling through the roof and many players do. (simply take shielding metamagic... and raise your initiate grades to get other necessary goodies as well, as well as some spirit mentors add dice to counterspelling generally or vs that spell type individually as well, spirits on aid sorcery duty also if people have reason to expect this).


A lot of the utility of it could also be handled by some of the advanced wards as well. The ones which are invisible and hard to notice to people outside of them.

The only other thing I could think to do is use both masking and extended masking... plus then don't forget that the spell still has it's own aura on the astral seperate from yours... which you'll want to extended mask on. "Though mana-based illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away to anyone who makes a successful Assensing test (see p191). Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras."

Wow I had that last bit rumbling around in my head... whoever wrote the spells completely ignored the rules. It's a blatantly illegal spell by the rules. As the last sentence clearly states.



Falconer
Sorry... not trying to double post... just putting this separately.

Illusion spells: p208

Whoever wrote the spell completely ignored the last sentence. "Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras".

I'd say the spell as written is patently illegal. And it probably wasn't caught in proofing since it is web enhancement product on an accelerated timeline. I'd say the spell should work as a defense against 'astral window' and some of those because then it's countering and fooling another spell not necessarily futzing with the auras.

Coming out of a web supplement I'd run it by your GM first... and let him know that it does otherwise run contrary to the rules... but if he's cool with it...
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