I see the point about not wanting holes in the system, and using existing vehicles as a basis for new ones make sense. But it wouldn't be all that hard to at least put together guidelines. I mean, if I want to put a new Heavy Pistol together, I can start with the baseline 5P -1 AP SA ~15©. But it's hard to say, for example, what sort of mods may or may not be stock, and how many. So at least some sort of guideline would be nice.

You got about 30 to 40 pages in Hazard pay on space.

Considering how hard it is to get there and how exacting their measurements are, and how there is an --extremely-- limited number of people up there, you're going to stand out the instant you're there and you're not SUPPOSED to be there. With all that and the fact that even in 2076 there's not THAT much room up there, your options are going to be pretty limited.

Other than purposefully stretching, getting an entire book on a location that something like 00.000000000001% of the population might ever witness, is gonna be a little tough. Yes there are a few people on Mars, but at the top end you're talking what, 200?

I mean you can do it. Sure. Page count could be filled. There's just not that much THERE up there to do stuff in. I'm not sure how much demand there is for such. Especially as they just covered it in a fairly recent supplement. That they just covered it in Hazard Pay tells me that, well they've covered it and are unlikely to suddenly be statting out the Enterprise for us.

I also really like the ground up rules. While the "re-skinning" option works, and I have used it and will continue to use it on occasion, it always feels like a lazy cop out at best. The rigger books have always been used A LOT in my games. Rigger 2 & 3 the most, but I still have a nostalgic love of the original.

You see, yhe one real nice thing about supplemental material is that it's optional. If you still want to use the re-name & re-use option, more power to you. Don't use the supplement. With as many players & GM's as have been requesting this, I think they would easily make their money on it, even if it's a PDF only product.

I've been playing/GM'ing Shadowrun since '89, and while I have not always agreed with everything published I have always had options. Don't want advanced magic? Don't use Grimoire/Street Magic. Basic matrix rules ok for you? Don't use Matrix/Unwired. Want to able to build your own vehicles? Haha, screw you.

Bottom line is, put out a supplement for it. Make money off those that will spend it. Don't like the option? Don't buy it. Don't use it.

Just my 2 nuyen.

Really? Huh. I should pay more attention, never grabbed it. Never knew it was there.



That's entirely likely to be a big part of it. Sure, there's not supposed to be anyone "extra" up there, and anyone "extra" will get noticed - so you don't get noticed as being "extra," by making everything and everyone think you're supposed to be there. Hell, you might even be a SINner with a "normal" job upwell, with a side career in things that would get you airlocked if they knew it was you.

Could be, but the extremely low population, that have no means of 'escape' also makes catching you (Whom ever you are, and what ever you did), very very easy. I mean, your suspect pool is minute, and you gotta think there's a buncha buncha buncha camera's and security. Just to keep people alive. Much less security and camera's and stuff to keep people from doing things they dont' want you to do. Simply not being on camera when what ever goes down will put you at the top of a very small list of people that possibly could have done the shadowrun.

Gotta think the vetting for getting up-well is stupid deep and hard as well.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not going to be easy and when you do what ever it is you did, your gonna get caught, as there's only so many people possibly that could have done it, and it's not like you can just jump out the door and hold your breath to get away. lol The same way up, is the same way down and controlled by the same people you just transgressed against. lol All they gotta do is lock out the shuttle's control codes (( or just not let um dock)) and suss out who did it. Give everyone on the station a Lie detector. The 'new guys' first.

You can get around it with a lenient GM or stretching disbelief a bit further than normal. (( yeah I know. Great Dragons, flesh eating ghouls and Armadillos that can take racks of cluster bombs and growl at you.))

I just question, the long term possibilities are in such an extremely limited environment. Again that minute suspect pool is going to work against you. If by some miracle you get past your first run. Surely you'll be flagged by your second. A lightning run. Fake your way up. Blow up a station or something and hitch a ride on the emergency vehicle and maybe get out. Sure. maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayby with alot of luck and a GM that loves action movies. But long running campaign. *wince* Lots of difficulties to overcome.

So.... we swing back around to 'We just got like 30 pages in Hazard pay to cover the basics'.... is there $$$ in doing an entire supplement hobbled by those limitations?

Edit: Don't get me wrong! I love space and I RP in space pretty regularly. *Points to name* Jedi all the way.
I'm just saying perhaps there's not 'as much' you can do in SR space, as some other games.

Who knows, they might just be advancing the timeline to such a point where things in space start to get a little looser? Can always hope.

So I had this idea for Rigger 4, but thought of it about a week too late.

MENTOR SPIRITS

The Stig
Some say that he sleeps inside out, and that he invented November. Some say he's the third member of Daft Punk, and that he has a tattoo of his face on his face. Some say that his left nipple is in the shape of the Nürburgring, and that his breath smells of magnesium. All we know is, he's called the Stig.
Advantages: +2 dice for magic performed on a street or track, +2 to Vehicle Tests.
Disadvantages: Stig magicians are confused by escalators and terrified of ducks.

Some say that he's wanted by Ares Firewatch, and that he sleeps upside down like a bat. Some say that his politics are terrifying, and that all of his legs are hydraulic. Some say that he can swim seven lengths underwater, and that he sucks the moisture from ducks. Some say that he has no understanding of clouds, and that he can open beer bottles with his testes. All we know is, he's called The Stig!
Advantages: Stig magicians gain +1 Initiative Pass whenever operating a wheeled vehicle manually, regardless of how many Initiative Passes they are already receiving, and gain +2 dice any time they're using or benefitting from magic which is in any way tangentially related to vehicles. (Ex. Casting a spell, any spell, while in a car, casting a spell at a car or on a target which is in a car, benefiting from an otherwise non-car related spell, such as Boost Reflexes, whilst making tests to operate a vehicle.) Any magic that a Stig magician uses to erase their identity, such as a memory alteration spell that could normally be reversed, becomes irreversible no matter what means are employed.
Disadvantages: Stig magicians must conceal their identity at all times, except from their closest mates. If their identity becomes known by any other party who survives the scene in which it becomes known to them still in possession of that knowledge and able to convey that knowledge to others, the Stig Magician loses his Mentor Spirit and loses the ability to use Magic altogether until he adopts a new Mentor Spirit or a new Tradition. The Stig magician also gains the Poor Self Control: Compulsive negative quality, requiring a successful Composure (2) test to resist any sort of explicit challenge to their automotive prowess.

When it starts to become Rocket Science, you start realizing that the situation is even worse, and it has become Rocket Surgery.

Rocket surgery is either the process of conducting surgery on a metahuman, whilst aboard a rocket, conducting surgery on a rocket, or conducting surgery with rockets!

So it's either awesome, awesomer, or awesomest.

That tends to happen a lot... But it's more like dissection then surgery...

Vivisection...

You expect them to be alive after that?

They are alive when you start...

One of the harder things for Rigger books is the art, oddly. GOBS of people draw people (Heck, *I* do Super Heroes, and I suck!), but cars are more rare to find artists of, and sci-fi cars even moreso.

Mind you, there's a few DeviantARtists that I'd love to hire for projects, but, I'm a freelance writer, not an art guy, so not for me to do.

That said, I'd probably not make a complete "Build your own!" ruleset, but a "Mod the crap out of it!" rule-set is fine. Start with, I dunno, 20 vehicles and 20 drones, each getting a page to itself for a picture, art, and Shadowtalk (Akin to the first Rigger Black Book) which includes "Counts as", then 16 pages of "Mods! Here's how they work." ... rough estimate, mind you, but 56 pages has always been a neat suppliment size.

The problem, of course, is that there are a LOT of one-offs. I could make some broad car categories, but no matter what I put together, someone with more car knowledge than me (Which isn't hard, as I know bupkis on this) would be, like, "How could you forget this? Or this? Or... gah! This entire FAMILY of things!" ... mrf. Compact, subcompact, yeah yeah yeah, but then there's all manner of weird stuff, like combat segueways ridden by patrol cops, bicycles, gyrocopters, etc etc etc. Trying to make a complete least is a fool's errand because people love things that GO, and are always making new ones.

Well there are systems that solve those problems, bluntly but effectively.
As GURPS Basic Set put it, "if your character is a vehicle"...

Hey, Spock and Bones did it once....

Like I said, awesomer.

McCoy: "We got a heartbeat!"

"Doctor, would you care to assist me in performing surgery on a torpedo?"
"Fascinating!"

- Spock and McCoy

Well, yeah, if you wanted to do some actual, serious development with it. =i)