First, sorry if that came across a little sharper than I intended.

What I meant to infer was to stop at that point in the paragraph. That AR is interactive, not just a "I look at the AR". Here is a paradigm I think might help give an example why AR is not just a "read-only" thing.
1. Install Firefox. Add the "No Script" ad-on.
2. Sure the web. Notice how many sites seem broken.
3. Disable "No Script".
4. Surf the web and notice how everything looks now.

Scripts are being pushed to your browser, and by extension your PC, to give the feature rich web environment. Those same scripts put you at risk. AR is like that. You either turn it on, or you don't. If its off, you miss lots of stuff. If its only, you get the feature rich AR, but you are not vulnerable.

If you turn off AR, you miss A LOT OF STUFF. You can't just "go dark". If you do, you disconnect from society.

But nothing is stopping you from having a commmlink and contacts for AR that does not, in any way, connect to your other gear? If the link is hacked, you hard reset it, dumpshocking the hacker with some luck, and toss it in the bin and buy a new one, and that's that.

Similarily, nothing says a work station where you do your digital work has to be the same computer you surf the web with.

Smart phones are still IP connected. There are still attack vectors there. Not exploited that much yet, but increasingly.

Given the billions of comlinks and nodes, the number actually getting hacked are very, if not infinitesimally, small as a percentage. Just like the computers getting hacked today or convenience stores getting held up.

Computers today get hacked relatively rarely because usually users bother to install enough security to ward off common hack attacks.Still, there are millions of slaved or invaded computers in every country, used for botnets ect. It's not just the good old fashioned grief hacking; today unnoticed infiltration and appropriation of computer ressources for a wide variety of uses, from mining bitcoin to use in a botnet, is much mroe important.

Correct. Nothing says we should dump our land lines and only use mobile, but people are increasingly doing it. Nothing says we should start using tablets as not only readers and entertainment centers, but as primary computing devices, but people are. Why? less cost with one device, less to keep track of. Consumer ease. Consumer demand drives these trends.

You are right. Nothing says you have to, but again, if you are having this fancy set up with a runner who has no skill ranks in electronic group skills, I challenge that as metagaming.

No worries. I don't take offense easily.

I do understand the analogy, Redjack. And yes, AR is constantly updating. My point is that I do not need ANY OTHER devices (other than a pair of glasses) to connect to that comlink to get that data. There is no rationale I can think of that will make sense when you force that into the Internal Ware debate, though. There is no reason that Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers should EVER link to the Matrix to cooperaste with each other. None whatsoever, because that can all be easily accomplished via a DNI connection.

If the argument then becomes that I need regular maintenance and updates, that is also easily accomplished via Datajack and a chip. Assuming that you want to force SOTA shennanigans. And even still, no Matrix Connection is required for that.

As far as Going Dark being a disconnect form society, I disagree. I have yet to see a need to be connected 24/7/365 via a Smartphone, Tablet, or other perpetually linked device IRL (as a result, I STILL do not own any of those pieces of technology). I connect with society just fine.

Are you supposing that consumers will suddenly stop being lazy or uninformed (as a generalization)?
I assume that a good deal of Dumpshock users are FAR more computer savvy than the average user. I also assume that most characters are more like average people in their knowledge of electronics (given a glance at the skills they take).

That is not the case here either. Every piece of equipment has a baseline functionality. Activating the matrix allows it to do more than the baseline. That is a bonus by definition.
What seems to getting to some people is the fact that the baseline is not what they think it should be. Often that opinion is based on comparison to older editions which adds another level of subjective assessment to the equation. The only objective thing that can be said about the matrix rules is that connecting gives items a bonus.

However, as of SR5, even a 'Runner with those skills is still vulnerable, because of fiat. And that is what pisses people off.

Aside from considering at least a modicum in computer skills essential for a character, I'd like to point out that there are certain cultural differences in acceptance of unsafe technology like tablets. Also, since SR suffered a global computer meltdown twice now, cataclysms that killed millions, I'd recon people would treat Matrix security a little more seriously than some users today treat privacy matters. More like nuclear power, or untested medication. It has benefits but also drawbacks.

Then again, the same people also shrugged off devastating pandemics like VITAS.


If the recognised threat is high enough, yes, consumers can change their minds.


And who are those Gold-standard 'average people'?

Assuming that the manufacturers simply don't start saying, "We no longer support firmware upgrades/etc, without a wireless connection to insure that (1) the firmware/hardware has not been tampered with (2) protect our interest as far as liabilities towards malfunctions/out-dated firmware."

As an informed consumer, I agree with you. My Chevy truck has a transmission limiter that cuts out at 97mph. I do not like this. I do not want this. I was NOT informed about this before I bought the truck. It did not stop the company from doing what they wanted. I do not like the upcoming phone-home to start the game feature of Shadowrun Returns. I was NOT told about this before the Kick Starter. I do NOT like this. This does NOTHING for the function of the game and only serves to limit my ability to play. It appears I, as the consumer, have been insulted and have little choice.

Come on. Really?

At least in your Chevy, if you had the necessary skill, you could remove that transmission limiter. Which is analagous to a Shadowrunner (or a Street Doc, or a Hacker, etc) removing the requirement to have a Matrix connection to get the bonus (especially for things that should never need to be on the matrix in the first place).

The issue is that SR5 does not apparently allow such things (as it is counter to the developers intent of having Hackers able to do something in combat), even for the Corps who make that stuff. So their People have the same limitations, though in-game that would never happen.

Depends on what AR you are talking about, since SR rolls different stuff into that term. First you have something of an "internet of things" concept, where everything broadcasts something. Your commlink broadcasts a SIN and social networking info, a doorbell your name, and a bar table the menu. On the other hand you have AR access to the matrix, which is not bound to your physical location, because matrix layout does not necessarily mirror geographical features.
Since there has never been an actual explanation how location-based AR broadcasts interact with the matrix as a whole, there is no real answer to how much AR you can see or even use while "going dark" matrix-wise.

My personal but decidedly non-canon explanation is to divide AROs and matrix access:
- AROs are only received by devices in direct signal range (retransmitting the AR icon of every traffic sign would soon overload the infrastructure, and for no gain). Broadcasting, receiving, and interacting with AROs has nothing directly to do with the matrix, although some actions you take may of course require matrix access (say online payments). So if you want to see that girl's social profile or the spectacular AR sculpting in a bar, you have to physically get there.
- AR matrix access means you move your persona through the matrix just like your player model in an FPS, the difference being that controls and monitor are AR objects your commlink projects into your vision...basically, the turtle users of old editions.
- VR users therefore can interact with an AR matrix user as normal (they might be a bit slow, though), but see nothing generated by AROs and AR sculpting.

No the fraking problem is that the base line isn't at all what the piece of gear actually does ingame, but a completely differed think.
In other word the games crunch no longer matches the fluff in lot of cases.

Another problem is that many pieces of gear aren't even worth getting anymore unless your willing to be matrix raped as the base line bonuses are pretty much useless, witch is quite shitty on a core book that is so much over word count that important rules had to be left out .

I agree with you here, Sengir. I also believe that ARO's do not necessarily access the Matrix itself. Though they could, I guess. No real need for it, though.

Ok now Deep breath. so what you are saying is that the gear does not do what you think it should do. The gear does what it does. It then does something more when connected. You are asserting that it should do something different based on something else (opinion, old edition, flawed fluff text, etc.)
Additionally you ascertain that the gear is no longer worth taking. Is this based on a balanced analysis of the origins book, or another source? If you have the book can you please give me some concrete examples so I can understand your POV. You may be right, but at this point none of us can or have made concrete arguments based on empirical fact. all of this uproar is based solely on conjecture and nothing more.
I would also argue that fluff should match crunch not the other way around, but again we get into a personal opinion argument that is unwinnable and pointless.

Smartlink basic function is supposed to be making hitting a target easier(just a simple practice target at shooting range for example), but now it doesn't actually do that(unless you connect it to matrix ) instead it now only makes it so that you can hit more well. In other words having a dot in your field of vision that show where your bullets is gonna land does not in any way help you to hit a target, but if your master smarksman it enables you to hit the bulls-eye.
It has been stated that other similar pieces of gear for other skill now work the same way.

Unless your a very good at shooting raising guns accuracy by 2 does absolutely nothing as your not hitting even the base limit except very rarely, so there's no point in getting a smartlinked gun. Same goes for the other similar limit boosting items.

Not entirely true. It's not *very* useful, but a slightly experienced runner with good cyberware and smartlink's wireless and an aim action can reach 16-18 dice. Then the base limit of 5 (for most guns used by sammies) can become a problem.

The real problem though is that edge can lift the limits. I think this is a very bad idea, because cases when limits really hurt are going to be rare and *should* sting.

The key difference being that his description wasn't a perfect analog for Wifi Bonuses, though it does illustrate the point.

A better illustration would be running the simulation of an ink drop being ejected from a print head, and mapping each molecule-by-molecule.

You can do that on your personal computer. Or you can do it distributed across your local super computer network. The former will not complete the calculations in your lifetime. The latter will.

What's missing from this discussion isn't what one person wants, or another person doesn't -- It's A + B. A: Old Bonuses have been retconned. They never existed, so in 2065, your Smartlink didn't actually give you In Character Bonus Dice. There's no bonus to miss to begin with. There. Is. No. Spoon. B: It's that in 2075, the Matrix is so Awesome that if you could see it today, you'd pee your pants because you can't appreciate the improved functionality you get just from connecting to it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

16-18 is a very solid dice pool and definedly on main combatant range, i was talking about all the other character types.

A dedicated main combatant with 2-3 runs behind him can actually hit 18-20 (Firearms 8-9 with the reflex recorder, 8-9 agility with the appropriate cyberware, +2 from smartlink...). In fact, an elf with exceptional attribute and the skill equivalent, with good bioware and a couple runs behind him, will reach 23-24 dice. I agree that it's an extreme case. But the idea is that a limit of 5 is an marginal issue starting at 12 dice and a moderate nuisance at 14 dice, which is in the "solid regular combatant" range.

In the spirit of injecting math whenever possible, with 20 dice:

70% of the time, you will run into your limit of 5. 18% by 1 success. 18% by two successes. 14% by three successes. And 19% by 4 or more successes.

Against a Limit of 7, you'll hit the following:

34% of the time, you will run into your limit of 7. 14% of the time by 1 success. 10% of the time by 2 success. 5% by 3 successes. And 3% by 4 or more successes.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

As I said you are comparing an old (SR3-4) edition to the new (SR5) when making that assessment. In no way does that effectively assess the usefulness in the SR5 ruleset. Listen you MAY be right. Neither of us have enough information to make that assessment yet. My point is not about balance, it is about concept. I believe the rule mechanic concept is sound (I make no assessment or claim about fluff or justification). It has holes, but how many? I don't count the smartlink as one of them. I might buy the reflex thing as a hole, but I'm not ready to say that until I see the core design model of SR5. If it fits that model it is not a hole. It may fall apart in play or upon full analysis, but until we get the rules in front of us we cannot say.

Don't forget that penalties apply. Throw in movement, range, cover, concealment, and recoil and you're down at least 4 or 5 dice, which puts that 18 down to a place where a limit of 5 doesn't matter. Take away those penalties and suddenly tht boost in limit matters.

By the way, the best holographics on the market won't help someone who anticipates recoil, jerks the trigger, has a bad cheek weld, or can't stop tea-cupping. I can see a tool like a smart link actually making mechanically bad shooters worse, or at best not offering any benefit.

You make some assumptions here that do not hold up all that well when applied to me. I am not all that impressed with what we have now (all that social networking going on), what makes you think that I will be so overwhelmed were I to see what is available then?

True. That's why I said "in one shot" before.

Diminishing the value of my opinion because I'm "sore" is an insult. As Biggie would say, "If you don't know, now you know." If you want to steer the conversation in another direction, you could have done it without the "We get it" condescension.

So all the posturing, complaining and boo-hooing aside, from what we know of the RAW SR5 universe, how does one protect oneself from being hacked other than "turn it all off"?

No. I fully accept what you have said.

I, in no way, want to convey to you that I believe that you would in anyway be impressed with technology that exists in the future.



Sounds like the most practical advice is: Buy an expensive Commlink And/Or build a trust based relationship with a decker and slave your stuff to his deck (Which has advantages based on his attributes + sleaze rating).

I think it's worth repeating that paying attention to your 'check engine light' while running is probably important. And it sounds like a full zero-to-sixty hack in a single round isn't going to be common. So you may see it coming.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Range is almost never an issue, especially for someone with a smartlink (because cybereyes and vision magnification), and cover adds to defender dice pools.

So it's just concealement and recoil. The first one is occasional, and the second more common but not systematical either. So most of the time you roll your dice pool, and sometimes 2-4 fewer dice.

The person who should be running teams cyber defense is the person with the highest intuition and willpower.

And Logic if you want to run silent.

If you slave your devices to the Decker's deck, is it assumed that he has root access to all your equipment/cyber?

Like, my understanding is that because he's the gateway, to get your stuff a hostile decker needs to subvert your friendly hacker's stuff first. But is there any mechanism to protect a malicious decker from tricking you into slaving your gear to her deck, and then launching an attack on your slaved gear?

I would suggest that incorporating the ability to support a zero trust model is an important part of making that architecture believable. Yes, it can operate for streamlined game purposes in a way that allows a compromise of the decker's gear to turn into a compromise of the samurai's cybernetics. HOWEVER. It's a bitter pill to swallow, in the cyberpunk world of paranoia, that you should let someone who undermines electronic systems for a living have implicit trust, and root access.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Would you trust someone who kills people for money to guard your physical body? The game hinges on finding a handful of people to trust and trusting them completely. If you want to not get hacked, you have to trust a hacker to defend your network.

yeah, it's not as if the street samurai who professionally breaks into corporate facilities for a variety of purposes ranging from theft to kidnapping to assisting that "untrustworthy" hacker in getting into a position to be able to perpetrate his heinous crimes is any more inherently trustworthy.

and yet, nobody seems to have a problem with the idea of the hacker or magician essentially leaving their meat body completely defenseless and under the street samurai's care. needing a hacker to defend yourself from a hacker makes sense, if you're going to have things accessible online, that is (i'm still not sold on everything having online bonuses, but that's a whole different argument).

Serious question, how does slaving affect running silent? It's not spelled out (or at least doens't seem to be) but i presume i can have a nice chain of devices running silent to one device that the hacker or whoever makes the test on.

This is one of those in my experience things.

Probably based on the detail that people who play deckers F with players far more often than pretty much every archetype. Its like the thief class in D&D for some reason people think its cool to steal from the party because Thief is in the name of their class. Way to many deckers basically screw the party just as much under the I'm a acker that is what I do excuse.

Given that you'd need to see someone Running Silent before you could do anything to them, you would first need to do a Matrix Perception Test to spot anybody Running Silent.

Matrix Perception
Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] (v. Logic + Sleaze)

The higher your logic the harder you are to spot while Running Silent.

Is that a contested roll, or is it a Threshold?

Contested. I have the book i'm just trying to suss out writer intent. Seems like the best way to protect the team is build a slave chain, have them all run silent, and then hand the master device to the person that hits that sweetspot of high logic, intuition, and willpower as well as a powerful link. That person might very well be the team mage or something. In many ways it could actually be to the benefit of the team to not have the hacker be the run supervising things, because then he won't have to take the running silent penalty on his cyberdeck.

I've said it over an over again, I really like the 5th ed matrix rules, but the way defense is handled just dosn't sit very well.

So the design goal of making more Attributes "useful" was met?

Another way LurkeroutThere is to use a WAN and a high end Host as your Master Device. I am not sure if that option was mentioned yet.

Attributes were the most insanely important thin to a character in SR4, they were far far far too important. You design goal should have been to make attributes far less important overall with maybe strength getting a nundge to be more useful incomparison. Even in the context you mean, none of those stats were dump stats why did they need to become more useful than they already were?

One of your stats mattered to hackers, and that stat only mattered to cybercombat, which good hackers avoided like the plague. Beyond that, hacking was entire gear and skill driven. I could make a hacker wit 1s in all his Mental stats and he would be a vrituso hacker. A Mage with the same array would be worthless. A trigger puller with 1s inall his physical stats is a sad joke. But a hacker could be just shy of a vegetable and still hack his way through anything.

The design goal he was referencing was making Attributes more important for Matrix characters, for whom they were pretty much completely irrelevant.

And exceeded, but the baby went out with the bath water and now skills don't matter as much. I'm really curious why it whould my be attribute + skill capped by matrix attribute like elsewhere rather then matrix attribute plus attribute.

It like having someone taking a certain type of shooting action with accuracy plus agility. It seems odd within the framework.

It may be that they decided that putting it into a skill may have made little sense or overvalued that one skill in comparison to the other Matrix skills.

Sure, but that design goal was met by making it skill+attribute. Intuition handled matrix perception which is damn useful, willpower has always just been a useful stat. How many ways do these stats need to be made useful.

What are the rules for doing that, DireRadiant?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS