I'm not opposed to the idea of giving Wireless Bonuses to certain pieces of gear if they are connected to the Matrix. As a pure concept, it makes sense. Where it falls apart is in applying it to things which have no logical reason to require a Wireless Connection, such as the now infamous Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers.

So, in that spirit, I've gone through the vast majority of different pieces of cyberware available in SR4, and evaluated each to see if I believe it can or should logically benefit from a Wireless connection. So without further ado, "Should This Have A Wireless Bonus?"

Headware

Attention Coprocessor: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Commlink: A wireless device by nature, but a matrix connection is only required for Matrix Actions, NO.
Control Rig: Used via full VR, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Cranial Bomb: Can be remotely triggered, but doesn't have to be, and not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Data Filter: Can be remotely triggered, but doesn't have to be, and not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Data Lock: An upgraded Data Jack, this is wired-only device, NO.
Data Jack: This is a wired-only device, NO.
Encephalon: DNI, has no need for connectivity, already benefits Matrix Actions passively, NO.
Invoked Memory Stimulator: Can be remotely triggered, but doesn't have to be, and not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Math SPU: DNI, has no need for connectivity, already benefits Matrix Actions passively, NO.
Olfactory Booster: Has no need for connectivity, however can be connected to PAN "to create an even more thorough AR experience", could see this giving bonuses for AR, so YES.
Orientation System: Can operate somewhat without connectivity, but integrated GPS and map-downloading are obvious Matrix connected bonuses, YES.
Radar Sensor: A sensor system, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Sim Module: The equivalent of a VCR or a Disc Drive, receives it's data either from a Data Storage Device or from the Matrix, not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Simsense Booster: DNI, has no need for connectivity, already benefits Matrix Actions passively, NO.
Taste Booster: Has no need for connectivity, however can be connected to PAN "to create an even more thorough AR experience", could see this giving bonuses for AR, so YES.
Tooth Compartment: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Ultrasound Sensor: A sensor system, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Voice Mask: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Voice Modulator: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.

Eyeware

Cybereyes: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Eye Laser System: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Eyeband: Operates as Cybereyes, NO.
Eye Recording Unit: Can deliver data to other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO
Flare Compensation: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Image Link: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Low-Light Vision: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Microscopic Vision: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Ocular Drone: Operates as per Cybereyes while implanted, as a Drone while not, connectivity issues already handled as a Drone, NO.
Protective Covers: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Retinal Duplication: Has no need for connectivity, NO.
Single Cybereye: Operates as Cybereyes, NO.
Smartlink: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Thermographic Vision: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Vision Enhancement: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Vision Magnification: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.

Earware

Audio Enhancement: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Balance Augmenter: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Cyberears: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Damper: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Ear Recording Unit: Can deliver data to other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Increased Sensitivity: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Select Sound Filter: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Sound Link: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Spatial Recognizer: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.

Bodyware

Auto-Injector: Can be remotely triggered, but doesn't have to be, and not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Balance Tail: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Biomonitor: Can deliver data to other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Bone Lacing: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Blood Circuit Control System: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Cyberfins: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Cyber Safety: An RFID that is paired to a firearm's safety RFID, technically wireless, but not Matrix connected, renders cyber-smartlinks hacking immune, NO.
Dermal Plating: Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Dermal Sheath: Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Fingertip Compartment: Manual operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Flex Hands: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Foot Anchor: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Gastric Neurostimulator: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Grapple Gun: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Grip Feet: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Internal Air Tank: DNI/Manual operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Magnetic System: DNI, has no need for connectivity, and in fact inhibits Wireless communications, NO.
Move-by-Wire System: DNI, can receive data (Skillsofts) from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Muscle Replacement: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
OXSYS Cybergill: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Reaction Enhancers: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Retractable Climbing Claws: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Simrig: An upgraded Sim Module, receives it's data either from a Data Storage Device or from the Matrix, not the sort of device that should have bonuses, NO.
Skillwire Expert System: DNI/Passive operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Skillwires: DNI, can receive data (Skillsofts) from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Skinlink: Adaptation for other devices, this results in a "wired" device, N/A.
Smart Articulation: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Smuggling Compartment: Manual operation, has no need for connectivity, NO.
Touch Link: I'm not even sure what this thing actually does, but... Can receive data from other sources, but merely requires a device connection, not a matrix connection, NO.
Wired Reflexes: DNI, has no need for connectivity, NO.

Other types of cyberware not included in this list are Cyberlimbs (which I'm told don't get Wireless Bonuses anyway), Cyberlimb Enhancements, Cyberlimb Accessories, Cyberweapons, Biodrone Control devices (which are highly out of the ordinary), Cosmetic 'Ware (which is cosmetic), and Nanocybernetics (also exotic, not to be confused with Nanoware, and I'm not entirely certain if they are controlled via wireless, or DNI, or what, exactly).

~~~~~~~

As you can see, the vast majority of cyberware is DNI controlled or operates passively, so a Wireless Connection is neither needed nor makes any sense.

There are a number of devices which can be remotely triggered via Wireless Command, but this merely involves their "listening" for an appropriate command (and because of this they are already hackable), so Wireless Bonuses make no sense.

There are a number of devices (such as Image Links or Sound Links) which can receive data from other devices, but said data can be received through a "wired" connection such as a fiberoptic cable or a skinlink and need not be received from the Matrix, so Wireless Bonuses again make no sense.

There are a number of devices (such as Eye Recording Units or Ear Recording Units) which can deliver data to other devices, but said data can be delivered through a "wired" connection such as a fiberoptic cable or a skinlink and need not be sent via the Matrix, so Wireless Bonuses again make no sense.

I personally identified only 3 pieces of cyberware that have remotely compelling reasons to grant bonuses when connected to the Matrix.

The Orientation System does not function at full capacity without it's GPS triangulation, and likewise cannot download and update maps without a Matrix Connection. The Olfactory Booster and Taste Booster both explicitly mention their usage in regards to AR experiences, so if you want to be able to "smell" and "taste" AR data that isn't preprogrammed on your commlink or other storage device, you will need a Matrix Connection.

If you disagree with my assessments on any individual pieces of 'ware, please feel free to post an organized, logical rebuttal.

~Umi

Hard to agree or disagree with some without seeing what the Bonuses are for some of the bits of cyberware. Totally with the big list of no's for functionality a'la the last 4 iterations of devices, but some of them i can see having Bonuses from being hooked into the all pervasive Matrix (I can see things like Math SPU's, Some Cybereye functions etc getting some valid boosts, the key word being Boosts, from being logged in).

Only 2 weeks and a couple of days till the PDF. Until then debating this is really hard (except of course the now massively overdone Smartlink and Wired+RE discussions.)

The specific bonuses themselves aren't what I'm arguing, here. I'm arguing the logic behind granting a bonus, per the nature of each implant. If you don't want to involve yourself in that discussion, you don't have to. Those of us who wish to discuss this topic have every right to do so unimpeded.

That said, I would like to invite you to explain your view on potential avenues for bonuses for those items you specifically mentioned, namely Math SPU's and Cybereye systems.

In the case of the Math SPU, it is a device implanted in the brain that interfaces via DNI and which provides electronic mathematical computation power. It allows you to devote computing power to math-based brain functions - essentially it's an implanted calculator. Now, I could see some potential for boosting this device's bonuses beyond normal by increasing the amount of computing power available to it, but the question then becomes where does this extra computing power come from? If you connect to the Matrix, where exactly on the Matrix will this extra computing be done?

The ever nebulous "cloud-computing" is fine in theory, but the specific details should match up and make some degree of sense too. Do you access some sort of decentralized computational service website? Do you need to have an account and sign in in order to use this service? Is it private, public, anonymous, not? Who controls it? Is it encrypted? And how much of a gain can reasonably be made via cloud computing the sorts of math problems that you'll be working out in your head to begin with? It's all well and good to use cloud computing to crunch very complex, high order mathematical constructs and problems, but anything of the sort that you can be figuring it out in your own head unaided can't really be all that complex in nature, can it? At what point does more computing power simply not help the meatbrain to perform any faster?

And then there's the question of, "If you can gain boosts to your Math SPU's performance by connecting to extra computational power via the Matrix, why can't you also connect to extra computational power via a commlink on your person?" Why does this bonus specifically only apply to Matrix connections, and not just additional device connections? If I can connect to the cloud to figure out a math problem faster, why can't I connect via cable to my buddy's Deck for a minute instead?

Now, how about Cybereyes? I'm having trouble figuring out how this could work. So yeah, Cybereyes have an Image Link, which allows you to display digital data in your field of view. Typically, this data comes through your PAN. If your PAN isn't connected to the Matrix, you quite obviously won't be receiving any Matrix-based data to feed into your Cybereyes. But receiving such data is not a bonus - that's simply basic operations for this sort of device. If you want to see AROs in your Image Link, you need to be able to receive their data from the Matrix. Unless, of course, you have a downloaded AR program in your commlink, such as an AR blueprint for assembling an electronic device, or similar. Those you could use at any time without a Matrix connection - just pipe it through your PAN into your Cybereyes.

That said, I can't quite think of anything information you could get from the local Matrix to display in your Image Link that would really provide any sort of tangible bonus. Most everything relevant to your local surroundings can be picked up via sensors and a TacNet along secure wired transmissions - what sort of additional useful data could you possibly find on the Matrix, I wonder?

~Umi

Now I understand where you're coming from Umidori (also not familiar very much with TacNets so had forgotten about them) as that's the kind of thing I was thinking for the Eyes. MathSPU (and possibly) Enchaphalon was also along similar lines in my head, I;m seeing the Matrix bonuses as a game mechanic effect of having a more GitS application with the ware (which is mostly the Headwear, Data-process, projectivity and Visual update and Information stuff). I was applying the logic of things that can work better with the Information Data of the Matrix applied. Not as you mean just the Bonus.

Carry on.

I'd like clarification on two points:

1) Orientation System
The item explicitly includes both a miniature gyroscope for intertial navigation and mapmaking software. I really can't see connectivity making a difference in its operation. At most, downloading a map of a target facility beforehand would be more convenient than mapping it on the fly, but what kind of crunch bonus would that offer, over and above the +2 to Navigation tests that is the explicit effect?

2) Olfactory and Taste Boosters
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here. The book mentions linking it to the user's PAN, but doesn't give any details about this "more thorough AR experience." If you have the 'ware, you're getting the data; maybe linking it to the PAN gives you a little window in your field of vision that identifies what you're smelling or tasting (if you don't already know). I'm also fuzzy about "smelling and tasting AR data that isn't preprogrammed." Olfactory and taste data would be a standardized format, like MPEG and JPEG. If your PAN is feeding you OSEG and TSEG data, your 'ware already knows how to interpret that. If it isn't, you just don't get anything. You might need to update the firmware every few months, but that's not something that should give you a bonus in the middle of a run.

Why wouldn't any device be able to work better with access to more computing power and data than it has itself?

Why should it need to?

And even if it did need to, why should Matrix computing power work but not other kinds of computing power?

~Umi

Indeed...

I would like you to continue your argument after you have disconnected from the Matrix. The quality of your position may change.

Wait what? Are you saying that my use of mathematica (or any other computing intensive but locally-run software) benefits from my posting on Dumpshock? Because it's the argument you've just made: "Your use of dumpshock makes every sort of computing improved by Internet use".

There are Some things that do indeed require a matrix (or direct) connection, and I have no beef with those things. I do, however, have a beef with things connected for absolutely not other reason than to provide a playground for Hackers. When it comes to Cyberware, that list oif things needing a Matrix connection is very, very small. Thought I was pretty up front about that one. Which is what this particular topic is entirely about.

Yes, a Comlink needs a Matrix Connection (or Direct Connection) to communicate with someone else...
No, your Chemsuit does not need such a connection to enact its seal, and in fact is just silly otherwise. That is ludicrous.
Same with Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes.

That is what we are commenting upon here.
Direct Connections should trump Matrix Connections every time, because they are better, faster, and much more secure.

I admit, it's kind of a mixed bag. GPS is useful for determining your exact current location. Inertial Navigation is useful for determining how far you've traveled in a given direction. When you can't access GPS, you can use Inertial Navigation for small scale travel without much risk of getting too far misaligned, but ideally you should update your actual location with a GPS location afterwards. Preloading a reasonably up to date map should work fine for most situations, but you may not always have access to accurate area maps and may have to make your own.

As for the mapmaking software, it appears to not be an automatic sort of thing. You have to manually provide input to make a map with it. Now, it's expressly stated that if you have a Radar Sensor you can use it in combination with the Orientation System to automatically map an area as you travel through it. But without a Radar Sensor, you have to build the map yourself via the software, which presumably takes some level of time and focus. Remember, all this device contains is a GPS (which gives you lattitude and longitude) and the Inertial Navigation (which gives you distance traveled in a relative direction). It can't determine anything about the terrain itself, unless you're using a sensor system like the Radar Sensor to provide that data as you go.

Ultimately? It could go either way. It doesn't seem unreasonable to say that if you have a Matrix Connection, you could better update your maps on the fly, download new ones, or even triangulate your position based on wireless signals from nearby nodes and Matrix Connected Devices. I could see a small bonus here making enough sense to not be offensive to basic logic.


I simply assumed that a "more thorough AR experience" meant being able to "smell" or "taste" AROs and other AR features in the world around you. If you walk by a fudge shop, their AR advertisement window might pop up and activate your Olfactory and Taste Boosters, making you smell and taste fresh fudge. If you're not connected to the Matrix, obviously you can't receive that information.

That said, if you had a recording of your favorite Thai curry smells on a datachip in your pocket, you could slot that into your commlink and patch it through your pan to your Olfactory Booster without ever having an active Matrix Connection.

That's all I really meant about the boosters, and I honestly don't think it's a very strong candidate for Matrix Connection bonuses, but I admit it could be, potentially.

~Umi

Interestingly enough, in another thread, it was confirmed that Alphaware costs 1.2 cost instead of the old 2x cost. Deltaware costs something like 2.5x cost, instead of 10x cost. Perhaps some of you should consider a house ruling that gear purchased at the rating of the old cost retains its Non-Wifi functionality at all times.

That would certainly follow the 'distributed computing' reasoning of matrix aware gear having a bonus, as huge arrays of logic have instead been removed from the local device. Reintroducing that equipment locally could be accomplished, but at a premium cost.

That's probably a fairly lightweight, non-intrusive solution. Afterall, you were already used to paying 2x the cost for Alphaware. Or x10 the cost for Deltaware.

You could rule that you can, and you retain the 'bonus you should have gotten', along with 'the price you should have paid'.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I'm sure many of us will be giving fair consideration to house ruling, don't worry.

That said, do you have any particular input on pieces of ware you think should have wireless bonuses? I'd actually like to be proven overly negative in this case.

~Umi

Well... Here's the issue I have. It's about 60 years, today, from 2075. So the perspective I have on the technology of 2075 is about sixty years behind the curve. Listening to speculation on technology that exists in 2075 would be like listening to speculation from 1955 about technology today. To put that in perspective, the transistor (the building block of modern computing) was built in the 1950s. Early 1950s.

So to hear someone explain why one thing should work one way, or another, in futuristic technology seems a little... Mmmm. Well. It seems a little niave, frankly.

Today, cloud computing is a major buzzword for a reason. The possibilities of interconnectivity are huge. It is literally reinventing some business models, throwing people out of their comfort zone. The idea that the PC, the bedrock of the last twenty years, could be on its way to the tar pits is really shaking up the industry. So to, with a straight face, try to build a case about why a piece of futuristic equipment has no reason for connectivity into a networked, computer infrastructure with more data processing, and logic matrices than I can imagine is a difficult proposition.

It seems much easier to build a case for why that Wifi connectivity exists along with a bonus. And the most obvious, lowest hanging fruit of them all is simply that the Matrix is so vast, so powerful, so incredibly mind blowingly radical, so HUGE in its expansive nature, that simply connecting to it makes you instantly capable of getting a date with the prom queen...

...Except, since everyone else is connected to it, we're back to being a geek by comparison.

...Unless you disconnect. In which case you're an uber geek. Best to hide under a rock because just lurking nearby makes them uncomfortable.

Regardless...

...No, I have a hard time shutting down thoughts about the benefits of interconnectivity. And at the very least, it offers an excellent explanation for the drop in gear prices. Additionally, it's not beneficial to compare "how things worked in a different edition" to "how things work now". Such is the nature of a retcon. It's the cool bonus that we never knew we had, so we'll never, ever miss it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Thank you for posting this Umi!

@Wired_SR_AEGIS

The problem is that the technology of today is not fundamentally that different than (to use your own example) the technology of 1955. We still communicate via electrical signals sent via wires and radio waves.

Sure, there have been changes. Our data storage mediums have become far more efficient. Our data transfer rates are far better. Our processing power is remarkably superior. We've miniaturized and we've refined and we've come up with a far more capable system of telecommunications. But the fundamental principles remain unaffected.

Let's take a CCTV setup from 1955. You've got a camera capturing video, and it sends that video to a monitor via cables. Now imagine someone were to tell you that you could get a sharper picture by taking the video feed, piping it into an antenna, sending out a radio transmission to a distant receiver, having it bounce several times between numerous further receivers, and then ultimately having it come back to your original antenna to then be piped via cable to the monitor. You'd call them an idiot, because it doesn't make any goddamn sense.

Now let's assume that it's 2075. You've got a cybernetic implant that's hooked up to, and is directly controlled by, your brain. It is entirely self contained, receives no inputs from any other sources, and operates entirely on its own. Now imagine someone were to tell you that you could make the implant work better by taking your mental inputs, broadcasting them wirelessly to other computer systems, having them travel around the Matrix for awhile, then get filtered back into your wireless receiver, and then finally get piped into your implant. What.

Now let's work with cloud computing and the Math SPU. Cloud computing doesn't just happen. First, you need to have individual devices that can perform the computation. Then you need to have some way of having them communicate with each other and organize the collective. Then they need to divvy up the workload, compute all the individual components, and then recombine them into a cohesive whole. Then you send the end result back to the point of origin.

In the world of today, all of this is chiefly accomplished through privately owned servers located in massive server farms. You can't just cloud-compute whatever you want. As the effort is innately collaborative, you can only make use of cloud computing for tasks that the owners of the involved computing sources agree to allow. You can't, for a somewhat simplistic example, just send a request to Google to have their systems bruteforce a root password for an NSA mainframe. Now, maybe you can find some private organization who just lets anyone at all use their computational power for any purpose. I doubt it, but it's possible.

Now put this in the context of Shadowrun. Who the hell is going to offer you these cloud computing services? Sure, the AAAs will do a bunch of cloud computing for everyday purposes like banking and recordkeeping and advertising for the masses, but Joe Blow off the street can't just patch into AresCompute.net and have them run his smartgun system's ballistics calculations for him. (At least not without raising a bunch of red flags and having his connection traced, et cetera, or alternatively having the clearance to do so because they work for Ares, or whatever.) The Matrix belongs to the Corps, and to GOD. They aren't going to be giving away any useful data if they can help it. So who, exactly, are you going to get your extra computing power from?

And in contrast, why would you even bother with cloud computing, instead of just buying a more powerful source of computing power for your own personal device? Why rely on someone else doing the computing for you over the Matrix when you can do it yourself on your own person?

~Umi

@Umidori

I'm not going to be dismissive of your objections because I think that they have been well reasoned. I think the root cause is that we are standing on different fundamental assumptions about the world that Shadowrun takes place in.

I am willing to accept that the Matrix exists in such a way that merely being connected to it is a massive benefit, unfathomable by my current understanding of technology. You are not.

In defense of my position, however, I can offer numerous real world examples of "the way things used to work" being fundamentally dumepd on their head. For instance, cloud computing is in many respects a return to the distributed server/terminal architecture of yesteryear. In 1992, if we had proposed this 'new thing called server/terminal architecture that would revolutionize computing', we'd be laughed at. In 2002, we'd be visionaries. And in 2012, we'd be scrambling to keep up.

Additionally, I would argue that a camera capturing video CAN have a sharper picture by taking the video feed and sending it off into the wild world of the matrix...

...In fact, upconverting standard defintion DVD into 1080p relies on the ability of computing to enhance the original signal in such a way that it appears sharper and thus it tangentially touches exactly your example. Now take that same low-fi camera input, and feed it into the matrix with its billions of distributed image sharpening services, and what pops out? In 2075, what pops out is an image sharper than that camera was capable of producing, simply by nature of its connectivity.

Additionally, yes, today cloud computing is done by powerful server farms and virtualization. Also, today, network architecture emphasizes gateways for communication. It appears that neither are necessary in the future. How is that accomplished? The authors haven't exactly explained that (Well, okay--Aaron mentioned that part of the lack of gateway architecture was for game mechanics purposes)--But is it impossible to imagine? No, it isn't. They were willing to create instantly meshing networks. And since computers alternate being spending their time idling, or sorting data into lists, it isn't like there's not massive amounts of available processing power to borrow.

Can you imagine explaining Xbox live to someone in 1955? "Right, so then I put on these head phones so I can communicate with my team and---No, no. The game hasn't launched yet. Now wait, before the match starts you need to put your headphones down here, so you don't have to listen to all the high pitched racist remarks from the pre-teens before---Okay, now your match is starting. Now run over there and get that... powerup. Yeah, power-up. You know. It powers you up. It... okay, nevermind. You're right, kids should probably just play games outside, forget it"

As far as all this free "cloud based computing"...

...It isn't free. Nothing ever is. Especially not in Shadowrun.

Consider iTunes. You purchase a song and now, forever, you have the right to download that song from them. By their contract they must maintain that song for you forever. In 1992, someone would have laughed forcefully at a business model that required perpetual storage of information for customers who made a single payment. In 2002, the idea wasn't so far fetched. In 2012, the idea of actually paying for music instead of just tolerating periodic commercials is once again flipping business models on their head.

Wait, you mean the things I paid for in 1992 are available for me, largely for free, in 2012? Wait, you mean I get 1G of storage FREE, just for the privelege of letting you mine my user behavior profile into your big user behavior profile profiler?

The point is---You just don't know what the future looks like. If you can't accept that the Matrix, by definition, is so awesome that you have to crap your pants when you connect to it, you're going to have a problem. I think it's entirely possible that it's that big of a deal. In fact, the matrix being a big deal is foundational to the genre.

Personally, I think that's being fairly small minded. Because the nature of the industry is fundamental change. There's some great quotes to that effect that I'm sure someone could slap into this thread for us.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

The device manufacturers?

And if, for some odd reason, a massive conglomerate able to design and manufacture cyberware can't afford cloud computing server farms themselves, they would rent out to a service. The present-day analogy would be Amazon Web Services. In Shadowrun, that might conceivably be Renraku, who are known to be big players in cloud computing.

Now, that being said, many of the wireless bonuses are abstracted to work better by simply sharing information with your PAN. It's not just raw processing power, it's more information entry, as well. You say there's no need for it to be wireless, because it's wired. Kind of the slant we're seeing is that manufacturers aren't making things wired anymore. The idea is your wired reflexes can coordinate with your reaction booster, but the manufacturers put the communication interface wirelessly. Is that inconvenient for security minded folk? Yes. Does my iPad has a USB port? No. Sometimes, you just don't get what you want. When the corps decide wireless is simpler, you can't really argue.

I find it odd when people say "But.. but.. it's [i]inefficient[i]". I think this generation forgot what cyberpunk and dystopia is supposed to be. *sigh*.

Oo, I can answer this one!

So the attention co-processor offers +Rating to Perception tests, right? What if the wireless bonus is that it adds its bonus to your dice pools just before you split them?

The Math SPU adds its rating to mathematics and encryption-based Electronic Warfare tests, right? What if the wireless bonus is that it adds its bonus to all Logic-linked skill tests?

Skillwires can handle their Rating x 2 in skills, right? What if the wireless bonus is that the limit increases to Rating x 3?


Oo, I can get this one, too!

If one computer doing its thing is fast and powerful, does it not stand to reason that when you have available the resources of hundreds if not thousands of similar computers running in parallel, it's even faster and more powerful? If so, there's your answer. If not, why are Pixar's render farms and Fermilab's Condor cluster a thing; shouldn't they have just one computer?

Wired. The problem you're over looking isn't that we don't understand what the future looks like or works like and it's tech. We know what it does because we've had 20+years of being told what the Sixth World does. The problem that people are having isn't based on Edition mechanics as much as that the mechanics do not line up with the Setting material, which is something that Shadowrun always did well (With certain incidents and novels not withstanding). The world presented, the descriptions, the attitudes, the way things are done and the way that people and corporations act, we've been told all this. It creates the Logic and World base reference from which the game operates and the stories are told within and for 20+ years we've had it all explained. Now, in these few areas, we have a Setting that says X does Y and a system that says X does Z and to access Y you have to link to M. It doesnt matter weather thats -2TN, +2dice, works together like it's done in a hundred pieces of fiction scattered across the setting material. It's a break in the self contained Mythos that is the Sixth World. Fixable? certainly. Annoying? yes.

...

Do you have any idea how bizarre and poorly thought out this sounds? Okay, just stick with me for a moment.

On the one hand, Deckers have made a comeback because the only way to get the functionality they want out of the new Matrix is to create custom Decks by cobbling together bits and pieces of hardware and software in custom packages that can do all the things they want to still be able to do.

On the other hand, the entire criminal population of the globe is utterly helpless to modify their devices to transmit electrical signals via wires instead of via radio waves. Johnny Street Sam buys a gun that is built to only transmit via wireless and he just shrugs his shoulders and accepts the vulnerability, because it is literally impossible to stick an adapter onto the damn thing so that you can plug a cable into it.

...

I'll see myself out.

~Umi

What I want to know, preferably from someone that has a book and isn't just guessing, is which pieces of ware actually do have wireless bonuses/must be on the matrix. Is it really everything?

We can save time arguing about how cranial bombs shouldn't need to be wireless connected for there bonuses, once we actually know if they have any.

So could we get a similar list of SR5- requires wireless/doesn't? Maybe even side by side with Umi's?

Wait a second. Let's get those goal posts anchored firmly in the ground.

Is this a discussion about being disoriented from a retcon? Because, yeah, that's one thing.

I'm with you, let's get back to the days when a Smartlink cost .5 essence and could MASSIVELY affect your accuracy with -2 TN. None of this pathetic +2 dice. That does jack all. Preach it.

But I thought this was a discussion about why things, despite the retcon, still shouldn't function? Because that discussion happens in a vaccuum. The past 20 years, while relevent to a number of discussions, doesn't factor into whether or not X, Y, and Z benefit from wireless connectivity.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

From my understanding, you DO - along with every other device in about a kilometer radius, this being simply a part of the new protocol that everything operates on. However much power you can pull from your commlink is always going to be less than what you can pull from 50 commlinks.

Because throwing processing power at a problem doesn't translate into being better. Additionally, it makes less sense to offload computing power instead of building it into a device - server farms are still expensive, and nobody wants their ware to go offline when the parent company goes belly up.
No, its functionally the equivalent of Sony/Ea Always-On DRM.
"It has to be online or our software won't work!" "why" "BECAUSE WE SAY SO!"

Even more so because you have to consider what a device DOES.
Imagine if your calculator 'had' to connect to the internet to function.
Fuck no.
You pick that shit up and punch numbers in and it works. No hassle, no fuss, no worrying about power outages, wi-fi droppage, sunspots interfering with telecomms, MSP's being out of service for upgrades/repairs/because you forgot your bill. Fuck that. It just works. Because its build to do everything it needs to.

In-Fluff-reasoning: Its even worse that the previous generation of everything just released worked offline just fine, and there's no reason to downgrade functionality. At all. You're supposed to make products BETTER, not worse with refinement.
Out-of-character reasoning: This is essentially forcing the matrix down every players throats to keep hackers relevant. Its also REALLY lazy on the writers part to not go through the list of cyberware and think "Does this need to be networked to function? No. Okay, but if it optionally is, what kind of EXTRA bonus could it give?" and then also not making a distinction between Networked and OnTheMatrix. Networking a cybereye, a smartlink, and a math spu makes SENSE for bullet math.

Networking it to an outside computer doesn't. Fucking PING times would ruin shots. Ever run into 'waiting for host' problems, or cross-ocean pings?
That shit is not going to fly when you need to take a shot NOW.

Further compounding the issue is, even under the hypothetical assumption that remote processing could make something better, then there should be a portable server that does it for you without needing to connect to the matrix.
Even worse, is that the new Cyberdecks are kitbashed hardware hacks, homegrown adapters and the like to navigate the new matrix - soon as that shit came out into the open, it should have been applied to cyberware too.

Also, samurais didn't need the nerf.

Dude, just use an abacus. You don't even need batteries.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

So I've taken a breather, feel I can discuss this further without going temporarily insane as before. A few quick thoughts.

Purely for the sake of argument, if we go with the idea that wireless is required because you can't modify the devices to operate through wires, then I assume Skinlink goes out the window entirely, yes? How about Laser communications? How about Datajacks?

If you absolutely require wireless between two devices, what's to stop you from intentionally downgrading their Signal Ratings to 1, giving them a range of 1m? That way you can wirelessly connect your Wired Reflexes to your Reaction Enhancer, but at the same time not be vulnerable to hacks from anything except melee range. Sure, they can't connect to the Matrix, but if the reason for wireless connection is purely based in the method of data transmission, this shouldn't be an issue. And even if you say that the communication protocols require an intermediary step, you can buy a trash commlink at Signal 1 and just connect them both to it.

More and more, this notion doesn't seem to make any sense or hold any water whatsoever. (Unless the real reason is actually something else, like you have to log into Microsoft's EA's Shiawase's verification servers to authenticate your cyberware as legitimate. Wouldn't want people to be pirating Cybershotguns, now would we?)

~Umi

I've slowly been coming around to the idea. Not the justifications - those are pants on head retarded. But quite frankly, I care rather less about them now than I did previously. So all your 'ware is wireless - sigh, I dunno. SCIENCE! Skinlinks and sprites make no sense either. As long as your 'ware being fucked doesn't require major surgery and is something you can fix mid-combat without inviting any more bullets than shooting, fuck it. Sure, you can hack my cyberware, whatever.

That said, I'll almost definitely houserule people being able to buy older ware at an increased price and essence, because my WSoD can only be stretched but so far.

Skinlinks are actually based on real world physics. The human body conducts electricity rather well, without ill effect. It's already possible to send simple electronic signals through the human body, it's not much of a stretch to imagine sending more complex ones as tech progresses.

As for Sprites, those are magical.

~Umi

I can see some wireless bonuses, but I know the wired/reaction enhancer one bugs me.

Olfactory/taste boosters sure go ahead make the wireless bonus something like when wireless its rating is used as the appropriate knowledge skill to identify the substance smelled/tasted.
Math SPU, make the wireless bonus something that lets you process things that would normally take X passes with one action. It could still take 2 combat turns to get the result, but you fired the query off and don't have to pay attention to it anymore. etc.

Wireless bonuses can work and can make sense but they shouldn't be just slapped on things left and right just so hackers can hacks in combat. More processing power or whatever the excuse of the day is doesn't pan out when there s no reason they would need massive processing power.

Except sprites aren't magical (in the SR sense), because in Shadowrun, magic uses mana, which the Matrix lacks. So SCIENCE! (which yes, is practically the same as MAGIC!) My point is that I can justify the corps forcing complete firmware updates on everything and purposefully making it harder for criminal terrorists for hire to function, because they're, y'know. megacorps. Fucking over Shadowrunners is sort of a security goal.

The issue is matrix connectivity, not wireless capabilities.

It's a binary equation. You're either on the matrix, get the bonuses, and accept the risks... Or you're not, and you don't.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Also, can we have a clarification on the Wired/Reaction Enhancers thing? I keep hearing that pair bounded about and something about them 'not working together', but what does that mean? They don't stack unless you're Matrix-enabled?

Right. Unfortunately technology has been retconned.

The ability to process the billions of stimulii that are processed by the brain, augmented by adrenaline and superconductive alloys, cannot be done locally in such a way to integrate both systems together. To gain a bonus from both systems, a user must rely on the distributed processing capabilities of the New Matrix, which layers the massive complexities together in a way that they don't walk all over one another.

I'm not sure if, themeatically speaking, this represents a difference in In-Character Continuity, or an actual retcon where this is how it always worked. (And we've always been at war with East Asia.)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Of course we've always been at war with East Asia. Big Brother wouldn't lie, would he?

On the actual topic...Wow. I had sort of assumed people were blowing that out of proportion because Wired and RE not stacking was just too much WTF for my brain to believe.

What actually constitutes Matrix connectivity? What is the kernal of being the makes up this vague, nebulous state of "being on the Matrix"? Is it being connected to other computers? Is it being connected to specific Grids or Networks? Is it receiving certain data only available from certain sources? Because depending on the answer, it can almost always be faked.

Right now, in the present day, I could unplug my computer from the internet and fool it into thinking it is connected to the internet. I can provide it with "websites" to visit, infomation to call up and display, or even to "download". Right now, this very moment, I could log into "Dumpshock" without logging into Dumpshock. For all intents and purposes, my computer will "believe" that it is connected to the internet, that it is communicating with other systems, that it is exchanging data with other systems, that it is uploading and downloading. For all practical purposes, the computer cannot tell any difference.

Emulation has long been a reality. You can download a virtual Xbox 360 and play virtual Xbox 360 games on it, if you know where to look. You can play hacked versions of "Always On" DRM controlled games, by supplying a fake authentication server for the client program to contact. You can convince Photoshop that it has been properly authenticated by Adobe's secure servers.

The excuses for this new limitation are drying up pretty quickly. I'm surprised that people keep coming up with new ones. Clearly none of them have been true so far. Maybe the next one will be?

~Umi

I think the core of Aegis' argument isn't that your 'ware needs to verify DRM or anything, is that it needs to take advantage of the distributed computing power of the Matrix as a whole. Not that I completely buy it, but Frank's Ends of the Matrix rules have a pretty good justification for that sort of thing.

now you know why so many people think the wireless bonus thing went a little too far.

i don't think anyone is complaining that your commlink needs to be on the matrix if you want to check the score from the latest seadogs game.

we're upset that you apparently have to route the signal connecting your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes through the matrix in order for them to play nicely together, when it's hard to imagine why that would be necessary, and even harder to imagine that the legitimate customers would tolerate those kinds of shenanigans or that the corporations themselves would tolerate those kinds of shenanigans in the 'ware they use for their own people (and if it exists and is used by their own people, then that means other people can duplicate it... and who do you think is going to sell more cyber, the person who forces all of their extremely paranoid, security-conscious customers to accept vulnerabilities that can negate their very expensive toys, or the person who sells a more secure model that costs a bit more to a bunch of paranoid security-conscious nutjobs because it has extra processing power built-in).

See, that's the only potentially workable idea I've heard yet, and it differs from every official explanation I've heard so far. (Which does not inspire much confidence, but that's another matter...)

As for the argument of distributed computing? I have some problems with that as well, but I'll spell out my thoughts on that in a later post.

~Umi

Okay, so Wired and Enhancers don't stack with Matrix turned off. So what does that mean? Which 'ware takes precedence? Do you get to choose? Or is it the highest init bonus? Or, assuming, RE's only boost reaction as in SR3...you don't get the core functionality of the gear? Or what? I have trouble imagining how they wouldn't stack.

Post removed because I got ninja'd to hell and back while I was rambling.

I'm not sure how they'd stack. You'd probably be best off asking in the rules thread. I'd assume that the "best" single bonus would apply. As far as how they wouldn't stack... Enh. We're all chasing our tail a little here, but just imagine two really awesome devices in today's term that don't work together but provide similar functionality...

...like a jet ski and a motorboat. Imagine how awkward it would to tie them together and optimize the thrust vector. Now imagine magic glue that you could slather on them, that would make it not(!)awkward, and optimize their engines to direct thrust along the same vector.

That's the Matrix.

Suddenly two systems that would otherwise trip over one another, don't. This is most believable when there are incredibly large number of complex calculations that must be performed in very short periods of time.



That's the core of it, yes. The nature of the benefit is one that is intrinsic to the awesomeness of The Matrix itself. It has some secret sauce that makes the dogs eat the food.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Two things:

First, to address the calculator example, please convert your car's maximum speed into furlongs per fortnight. Without using Google. Doing it with Google gives you an answer as quickly as you can type "120mph to furlongs per fortnight." That's internet access for you.

Second, I gather that the idea we're trying to get at is that the Wireless Matrix almost literally pervades all space in broadcasting range. That is, instead of walking down the street and seeing Access Point 1 and Access Point 2 that you point your device at, it's more like a separate dimension, a 'layer' of the Matrix over the existing physical space.

Think of it as Astral Space, but technological (and then consider that in terms of the Deep Resonance). Your device doesn't hook up to an access point that routes its traffic, it literally exists in duality (eg Dual Natured in Astral speak) in the physical and in the Matrix layer.

Things that generate Matrix information (like AROs) are like Matrix beacons -- they sit (dual natured) in physical and Matrix space and shine out ripples across the Matrix until the overall noise causes them to fade into the background. Devices pick them up through physical proximity because they're also proximate to the source in the Matrix layer.

Strong devices, like Cyberdecks or other terminals, can actually move themselves through the Matrix space away from their physical device location like a Mage moving through the Astral (while you were out...) and travel to these Matrix beacon areas to access their specific information. Alternately you can send a proxy out (data search) to go retrieve information for you. Like sending a courier out to scan images from a library and bring them back, but at the speed of data.

So physical space actually oozes with the Matrix. Cutting yourself out of it literally involves subdividing the world with a Matrix barrier (much like an Astral barrier) that blocks out the signal (like burying your lab under the Earth to make two spaces: Astral Outside and Astral Inside, that don't lie adjacent anymore).

So this isn't like connecting your phone to wifi. You don't hook up to things and download them. You use your device to peer into the data stream, and your device translates that stream into something comprehensible to you. Going AR is like using Astral Perception. Going VR is like Astral Projection.

But this stuff isn't just bits of information, it's really there. Most people just need technology to see it, and Technomancers have just awakened to it.

Just in case anyone was wondering, 120 mph = 322 560 furlongs per fortnight.

Thank you, Matrix.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

The problem with that analogy is that even a rubbish commlink should be able to operate like google, allowing you to type "convert 120mph to furlongs per fortnight" and get an immediate answer without having to have a Matrix connection.

~Umi

I would like to interject a good reason for why a large amount of gear would exist WITHOUT a need for a matrix connection as is currently required for their full bonuses (i.e. Chemseal suit, etc).

Considering
(1) previous technology, which was widely serviceable, worked without wireless signals through DNI and direct-link cables (not even counting Skinlink),
(2) the technology to create and maintain those devices is readily available, to the point that a non-involved party could manufacture such components and software/firmware required for servicing at an adequate profit;
(3) the technology and standard has already been released. If EVERY triple A megacorp dropped down to a LOWER standard, with less offline functionality, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot, figuratively.

Any military or security firm worth their salary would stick with the reliable, offline, old-standard, granting enhanced abilities instead of merely adequate functionality. This ENSURES a market for such products, whether white, grey, or black market. Megacorps' own security and military forces would, by necessity (to remain competitive in such an environment) be forced to rely on the very same white-to-black market gear that their own employers have chosen to no longer produce and support. Inferior products WILL NOT produce as much profit, especially when the superior product no longer requires such high premiums (i.e. proprietary technology, closed-source soft- and firmware, etc.) to both function and excel.

It will, of course, give me plenty of ammunition for making an Anarchist Black Crescent decker/bio-technician in SR5, providing everything a security professional needs to stay ahead of the regression, at a slight premium. Runners get a discount.

Hold on a minute. Wireless bonuses (boni?) are just that, technically. (Yes, I understand that it's less a bonus and more 'basic functionality' per older editions) but even offline, WR and RE should still provide some sort of effect. Otherwise, if you're offline, you basically have the implanted version of an expensive paperweight, which sounds wrong. From what I've read from the devs, they should still provide some sort of effect. So, assuming the bonuses are actually bonuses (as in you still retain the basic functioning of the device)...

Reaction enhancers provide +1 Rea per rating. Wired provides +1 Rea per rating plus +init per rating. (In SR4, did they change that for 5?) If they weren't to stack (and you take the higher bonus, which for most people would probably still be Wired), then your reaction enhancers do zippy-di-doo-dah. Which sounds wrong, because then being online wouldn't be a bonus, it'd be the only way to use your goddamn 'ware.

So even offline, you should receive the +Reaction from both, and reaction figures into initiative, doesn't it? I really need to re-read those previews...

And this is the core of why its dumb.

It shits all over how it used to work, and the reasons provided for it aren't good enough to justify such a massive backslide.

A retcon is a retcon.