Full Version: TM help please
Hey, I wanted to make a Technomancer 750 karma build, 1 submersion / initiation allowed. I would like some advice, complex forms mostly, what do I need to get at start? what rating? whats the "b est" first echo. any other ways to boost my DPs in the skills dept.? just general help and info would be nice.
There are a few threads about this, lemme try to dig them up:
Techno help 1
...well ok seems I only have one to offer
As for my advice, the only thing I can say is that Registering/Compiling sprites can be hella broken. For mages, Binding a spirit costs a lot of money. For technos, Registering a sprite is free. So your techno should have the max number of sprites registered, and they should all have infinity services available since you can keep rebinding and rebinding the sprites. The only thing it costs is time.
Techno help 1
...well ok seems I only have one to offer
As for my advice, the only thing I can say is that Registering/Compiling sprites can be hella broken. For mages, Binding a spirit costs a lot of money. For technos, Registering a sprite is free. So your techno should have the max number of sprites registered, and they should all have infinity services available since you can keep rebinding and rebinding the sprites. The only thing it costs is time.
Yeah, incredibly broken. Had a TM thread an Exploit form to bolster it, then called on a rating 6 sprite to add to it further. I know part of this next bit is luck, but with a DP of 19 for Hacking On The Fly he scored 9 hits followed by 7 hits to get an admin account in a DR 9 server node.
Otherwise there's the Widget Crafting or Biowire echos. Widget Crafting can take a lot of hours for a smaller and short term gain (they only last for a fixed 8 hours), but there are some widgets that bolster skills directly; the Debugger widget adds its rating to all Software tests, which does include threading, and Cheat adds to all Hacking tests. Biowire is for meat space, letting you take a copy of a skillsoft and thread a complex form for yourself to use.
Otherwise there's the Widget Crafting or Biowire echos. Widget Crafting can take a lot of hours for a smaller and short term gain (they only last for a fixed 8 hours), but there are some widgets that bolster skills directly; the Debugger widget adds its rating to all Software tests, which does include threading, and Cheat adds to all Hacking tests. Biowire is for meat space, letting you take a copy of a skillsoft and thread a complex form for yourself to use.
OK, so now I just want to ask, what is the "better" stream sprite wise, and what would a good paragon be, I was thinking 01 or black hat.
Another good echo is Multiprocessing. Observe in Detail is a free action plus it grants an extra free action. If you build a dronomancer, combine this and the advantage (more than metahuman?) that lets you jump in and out of drones as a free action.
I personally also like the idea of the Skinlink echo. Maybe not as useful as other echoes, but in my mind it's just cool for the techno to be able to touch anything and hack it
I personally also like the idea of the Skinlink echo. Maybe not as useful as other echoes, but in my mind it's just cool for the techno to be able to touch anything and hack it
ugh... after debats we are now starting with 600 karma or 320 BP, no submersions... HALP!. lol here is what I have so far.
[ Spoiler ]
still has 15 bp left. lemme know your thoughts, 5 bp are going to a paragon, either black hat or 01.
Dumpstatting not one, not two, but three stats? That's a bold move
I think if you read that thread I linked above, some of your questions would be answered.
I think if you read that thread I linked above, some of your questions would be answered.
I did, it help a lot. lol. and yes, the GM is ok with that I asked. 
. just want any tips for helping out with a 320bp build :/
. just want any tips for helping out with a 320bp build :/
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Jul 3 2013, 12:44 AM) 
Dumpstatting not one, not two, but three stats? That's a bold move
I think if you read that thread I linked above, some of your questions would be answered.
I think if you read that thread I linked above, some of your questions would be answered.
At 600 karma/320BP, he's up against the wall. I'd drop Resonance from 6 to 4 and bolster those stats, but that's just me. At minimum, I say buy another point of Agility; with Agi 1 you can't default on any combat skill, or a lot of physical skills, or most of the stealth skills. 320BP hurts. Out of curiosity, what was the debate?
people wanting to try a ganger style, or, I mean, wanting to start at ganger levels, like completley new, I think I an going to drop res to 5, though that hurts so many ares >.< for that extra~30bp.
after some more number crunching and ideas here is what I have with the 600 karma.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (Raiden @ Jul 3 2013, 09:03 AM)
people wanting to try a ganger style, or, I mean, wanting to start at ganger levels, like completley new, I think I an going to drop res to 5, though that hurts so many ares >.< for that extra~30bp.
You may want to raise the point with your GM that 320BP doesn't give you gangers as much as it gives you scrubs. IMO, the main difference between a runner and a ganger is gear: the runner has all the wiz toys, while the ganger has to make do with stuff he's scrounged or that "fell off the back of a truck."
he capped nuyen at 50k lol. :3
*fascinating eyebrow* Well, if your GM's goal is to have characters that are competent (not awesome, but competent) at one thing and sucky-to-marginally-capable at everything else, I think your character shows that he's on the right track. Try to not die.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 2 2013, 08:02 PM)
Yeah, incredibly broken. Had a TM thread an Exploit form to bolster it, then called on a rating 6 sprite to add to it further. I know part of this next bit is luck, but with a DP of 19 for Hacking On The Fly he scored 9 hits followed by 7 hits to get an admin account in a DR 9 server node.
This doesn't actaully work. If you thread a form, its rating is limited to twice resonance.
That limit still applies if you increase the CF rating in other ways, such as sprite assistance.
That being said, my group has houseruled it down a bit anyway
I'm curious to where it is stated. Threading is quite clear about the limit as applied to threading a complex form to improve it, but Assist Operation calls it a boost and doesn't mention any limitation on how high a complex form's rating can go from it. Now if the sprite's boost was done first, then threading, I can see the Resonance x2 limit, but to me it's like First Aid & Healing. It's a matter of order of application.
If you're threading, you still have to follow all the rules for threading.
Nothing in Assist Operation negates the limit imposed by threading. Assist operation raises the rating - if it provided a dice pool bonus instead, this wouldn't be an issue - and makes it bump against the ceiling. Or gets cut off by the ceiling. Either way, order of operations doesn't matter since there's no way to undo the 2x resonance limit.
Nothing in Assist Operation negates the limit imposed by threading. Assist operation raises the rating - if it provided a dice pool bonus instead, this wouldn't be an issue - and makes it bump against the ceiling. Or gets cut off by the ceiling. Either way, order of operations doesn't matter since there's no way to undo the 2x resonance limit.
And what if a TM doesn't thread a maximized complex form and the rating of a sprite for an Assist Operation is greater than the TM's Resonance attribute? Would you say that the threading limit still applies when the complex form isn't even threaded?
Honestly I'd say that if there was a single line in Assist Operation to specify one way or another that it too is limited to improving a complex form's rating to Resonance x2 or not, there'd be nothing further to discuss about.
Honestly I'd say that if there was a single line in Assist Operation to specify one way or another that it too is limited to improving a complex form's rating to Resonance x2 or not, there'd be nothing further to discuss about.
If its pure Assist Operation, then I have no problem with it. Rating 6+ sprites are still pretty taxing to register.
However, again, we play under house rules where Resonance has an Augmented Max that servers as a cap for all CF's. so 9 would be the limit no matter how it was being increased. CF's are WAAAY cheaper though.
However, again, we play under house rules where Resonance has an Augmented Max that servers as a cap for all CF's. so 9 would be the limit no matter how it was being increased. CF's are WAAAY cheaper though.
Hey, no worries. I'm still gonna do my own thing with sprites and threading in my own games and such. I'm already sure we're not the only ones doing things these ways anyway.
For Raiden, I'd suggest checking with your GM on his/her decision on this matter. It'll likely have an influence on what you do in the game.
For Raiden, I'd suggest checking with your GM on his/her decision on this matter. It'll likely have an influence on what you do in the game.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 3 2013, 06:52 PM)
I'm still gonna do my own thing with sprites and threading in my own games and such.
What have you fixed/altered, by the way?
My major surprise was learning the various sprite types often lack skills they need to use their software - particularly when it comes to decryption, that base action was changed in the transition to anniversary.
Honestly, nothing of note with sprites; didn't really get deep into TMs until after SR4a was printed. Was really referring to our discussion on Threading/Assist Operation. If I had noticed any skill discrepancies to the CFs, then I would've just said that the sprite had the necessary skill to use the CF as intended anyway.
But if it ever came down to it, I have mulled the thought of having sprites be able to perform an Assist Operation only for complex forms that they too possess. For the above TM I mentioned (technically a story character), it was a crack sprite that did the Assist Operation.
But if it ever came down to it, I have mulled the thought of having sprites be able to perform an Assist Operation only for complex forms that they too possess. For the above TM I mentioned (technically a story character), it was a crack sprite that did the Assist Operation.
In my experience, the best first echo a TM can get is the skinlink echo.
Suddenly, literally nothing is safe from hacking as long as you can touch it. Not even ancient Soviet ICBM hardware or whatever.
Suddenly, literally nothing is safe from hacking as long as you can touch it. Not even ancient Soviet ICBM hardware or whatever.
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jul 4 2013, 11:03 PM)
In my experience, the best first echo a TM can get is the skinlink echo.
Suddenly, literally nothing is safe from hacking as long as you can touch it. Not even ancient Soviet ICBM hardware or whatever.
Suddenly, literally nothing is safe from hacking as long as you can touch it. Not even ancient Soviet ICBM hardware or whatever.
It is also part of the Resonance Trodes/Mesh Reality/Acceleration combo, which takes quite a few echoes but can be wonderfully powerful.
resonance trodes?
Unwired, page 148 - they're kind of awesome.
awesomeness
A lot of the echoes there are pretty sweet, though way to expensive considering a lot of them duplicate functionality hackers just get.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 5 2013, 01:48 AM)
A lot of the echoes there are pretty sweet, though way to expensive considering a lot of them duplicate functionality hackers just get.
when you say get, you means actual skills or programs/hardware?
If the later that means it can be taken away, TM are never unarmed matrix wise
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 5 2013, 12:48 AM)
A lot of the echoes there are pretty sweet, though way to expensive considering a lot of them duplicate functionality hackers just get.
I'm not sure I know which ones you're referring to there...
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 01:34 PM)
It is also part of the Resonance Trodes/Mesh Reality/Acceleration combo, which takes quite a few echoes but can be wonderfully powerful.
Totally. If only the Resonance Trodes were explained in more detail - the rules leave a lot unknown about what exactly it does.
I think TMs, more than mages, have a lot of really interesting abilities with their echoes. I wish the TM rules would have changed to make echoes more a normal part of the TMs skillset rather than basing them on the slog of submerging. More like a techno-adept.
could try making a house ruling for it
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 4 2013, 11:51 PM)
when you say get, you means actual skills or programs/hardware?
If the later that means it can be taken away, TM are never unarmed matrix wise
If the later that means it can be taken away, TM are never unarmed matrix wise
Hardware.
There's an echo to use medic on yourself.
Medic, ffs.
That's worth a 0.25 adept power equivalent in price, not at 13 karma initiation or 15 karma echo.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 5 2013, 02:15 AM)
Hardware.
There's an echo to use medic on yourself.
Medic, ffs.
That's worth a 0.25 adept power equivalent in price, not at 13 karma initiation or 15 karma echo.
There's an echo to use medic on yourself.
Medic, ffs.
That's worth a 0.25 adept power equivalent in price, not at 13 karma initiation or 15 karma echo.
That one's valid. Stuff like getting 5 Matrix passes, 4 meat passes, and/or being able to run activesofts without needing to burn any Essence, though...
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 01:36 AM)
That one's valid. Stuff like getting 5 Matrix passes, 4 meat passes, and/or being able to run activesofts without needing to burn any Essence, though...
... still is way overpriced.
Rating 4 resonance wires = 70 karma.
Bad example, though. Most of the echoes are COOL, but the price is too high.
More accurately, the opportunity cost is so high you're not allowed to indulge in the things that make a technomancer neat.
Nobody wants to have to get 3-5 initiations to be on par with the samurai - in JUST the IP department.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 5 2013, 03:44 AM)
... still is way overpriced.
Rating 4 resonance wires = 70 karma.
Bad example, though. Most of the echoes are COOL, but the price is too high.
More accurately, the opportunity cost is so high you're not allowed to indulge in the things that make a technomancer neat.
Nobody wants to have to get 3-5 initiations to be on par with the samurai - in JUST the IP department.
Rating 4 resonance wires = 70 karma.
Bad example, though. Most of the echoes are COOL, but the price is too high.
More accurately, the opportunity cost is so high you're not allowed to indulge in the things that make a technomancer neat.
Nobody wants to have to get 3-5 initiations to be on par with the samurai - in JUST the IP department.
Quote for truth. The biggest problem I had with technomancers is the glacial pace of advancement combined with the crushing karma costs associated with them. Awakened characters couldn't even come close to the karmic black hole that technomancers are.
That much is true. The combination is awesome (Biowire>Acceleration*2>Overclocking+Advanced>Multiprocessing>Mesh Reality), but DAMN is it expensive - 7 submersions to get 5 passes to split between Meat and Matrix along with rating 7 Skillwires. I really hope they're not so horribly Karma expensive in SR5, but the fact that you have to submerge to be able to rig at all does not leave me very confident.
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 5 2013, 03:50 AM)
....the fact that you have to submerge to be able to rig at all does not leave me very confident.
I think that is pretty shit in and of itself. I love technomancers, but damn if it doesn't sound like the devs aren't "fixing" them so much as they're making their lives even harder in some ways. I wonder if the karma costs have been reigned in at all.
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 5 2013, 02:58 AM)
I think that is pretty shit in and of itself. I love technomancers, but damn if it doesn't sound like the devs aren't "fixing" them so much as they're making their lives even harder in some ways. I wonder if the karma costs have been reigned in at all.
I'd really prefer that they'd done something like "Here's Cyberadepts - they're technomancer hackers, and get a biodeck; here's the rules for biodecks. Here's Dronomancers. They're technomancer riggers, and get a Bio Control Rig; here's the rules for BCR's. Here's a way to manage to do both, if you're willing to invest properly.". It would have taken some figuring, but it should have been doable.
how do i handle machine sprites when jumped into my drones. do they increase the responce and system and the like to there rating? as well as young thier rating for targeting?
QUOTE (Raiden @ Jul 6 2013, 05:24 PM)
how do i handle machine sprites when jumped into my drones. do they increase the responce and system and the like to there rating? as well as young thier rating for targeting?
1: No
2: I'm not sure what you're even trying to say here. Youth and targeting have nothing to do with other.
There are two ways to handle machine sprites.
A drone is, regardless of controlling it, a computer system with users logged into it. Whether you are jumped in or not, the machine sprite is(potentially) running on the drone's processor and can take actions - such as Diagnostics - to affect the drone, or even control it itself.
Another possibility is what occurs when a technomancer wants to have a machine sprite control a drone directly. If the GM rules it can replace the Pilot(because it has a Pilot rating itself and can already use Autosofts), then its simply a method of using a new Pilot rating - though response will most likely be unaffected.
Sorry, not sure why I said that... aaanyway I mean if I had a machine sprite directly control the drone itself, (along the lines of jumped in) would It use its response,autosofts and the like. IE for targeting (shooting) it would be the autosoft 6, (R6 sprite) + the new pilot rating of 6. or would it be the autosoft of 6 + the old pilot rating. I can't find anything covering this.
Machine Sprites fall in to the Matrix Rules Dark Zone, where the rules are rather undefined. It's a bit unclear how Machine Sprites are meant to interact with drones.
I agree with Rhat.
They do come with Command, so that's certainly a possibility.
I would say that if the gm let them jump in, they would use the drone's response, same as every other rigger.
They do come with Command, so that's certainly a possibility.
I would say that if the gm let them jump in, they would use the drone's response, same as every other rigger.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 7 2013, 09:39 AM)
I agree with Rhat.
They do come with Command, so that's certainly a possibility.
I would say that if the gm let them jump in, they would use the drone's response, same as every other rigger.
They do come with Command, so that's certainly a possibility.
I would say that if the gm let them jump in, they would use the drone's response, same as every other rigger.
As a Resonance Entity the attributes of the hardware are completely and utterly irrelevant to them in all other contexts. Why should this be the one exclusion?
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 7 2013, 05:02 PM)
As a Resonance Entity the attributes of the hardware are completely and utterly irrelevant to them in all other contexts. Why should this be the one exclusion?
Because a jumped in rigger never uses their own matrix stats.
If a machine sprite is jumpin in, they use the same rules.
IE, a machine sprite has no sensor rating.
Its essentially the same as a rigger controlling a drone, and a machine sprite(if the gm allows it to jump in) isn't required to be on the drone's node anyway. It can forge remote connections like any other user. If a jumped in rigger uses the drone hardware's response, the jumped in sprite uses the drone hardware's response.
The only case I can see for changing this is another Gray Rules Area, if the gm allows a sprite to replace a pilot program.
A rigger is still relying on the attributes of hardware - his commlink, or the drone if he jumps in. A sprite does not ever rely on any node's Response. It is a gray area, and allowing a Sprite to replace the pilot program is certainly an option - an elegant one, in a way, since sprites work like smarter agents, and pilots are classed as agents...
Just remember: Sprites are OP. If you want to be OP, build your character around Sprites.
QUOTE (RHat @ Jul 7 2013, 08:20 PM)
A rigger is still relying on the attributes of hardware - his commlink, or the drone if he jumps in. A sprite does not ever rely on any node's Response. It is a gray area, and allowing a Sprite to replace the pilot program is certainly an option - an elegant one, in a way, since sprites work like smarter agents, and pilots are classed as agents...
Then imagine the sprite as a rigger with a built-in commlink. It relies on its pieces of faux-hardware - his matrix stats, or the drones it jumps into.
Its still a matrix user, only seperated from a physical hardware. Essentailly it carries the cpu with it, but the cpu is still there and used in all the normal ways in the same way an AI doesn't get to use its own response rating, but has to use the one of the node it's on. So that sets a precedent for how digital-only entities handle rigging.
QUOTE (4a 245)
Jumping in
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition)
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition)
Just because sprites are 'wierd and made of resonance' doesn't give them any sort of rules text that invalidates that.
Edit: haha derp finishing that sentence
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 7 2013, 09:24 PM)
Then imagine the sprite as a rigger with a built-in commlink. It relies on its pieces of faux-hardware - his matrix stats, or the drones it jumps into.
Its still a matrix user, only seperated from a
Just because sprites are 'wierd and made of resonance' doesn't give them any sort of rules text that invalidates that.
Its still a matrix user, only seperated from a
Just because sprites are 'wierd and made of resonance' doesn't give them any sort of rules text that invalidates that.
QUOTE
In game terms, sprites are very similar to agents (p. 234). Each sprite has a rating that
is equivalent to the Pilot rating of an agent and determines its other Matrix attributes. A
sprite’s Matrix attributes are independent of the attributes of any node in which it is running ;
it runs on other, inexplicable resources
is equivalent to the Pilot rating of an agent and determines its other Matrix attributes. A
sprite’s Matrix attributes are independent of the attributes of any node in which it is running ;
it runs on other, inexplicable resources
I suppose it doesn't directly invalidate it, though perhaps this is actually a point in favour - as, by RAW, a jumped-in sprite would have to use the drone's attributes, and this is completely nonsensical given the nature of sprites, perhaps RAI is that instead they replace the pilot.
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