So the reviews of SR5 starts to come, and actual reviews based on the whole book, not just on previews and rumors.

Her are the links to the first two:

http://throatpunchgames.com/2013/07/04/rin...un-5th-edition/
(which can also be read here: http://rpggeek.com/thread/1001288/my-review-of-shadowrun-5e)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1...gaCorp-Near-You

......aaaand accusations of being yes-men or being paid off in 3...2...1...

obviously these "reviewers"are being bought, one of them has the not jet released pdf Version of the book.

Also everybody who claims that 400BP Chargen is too complicated, obviously is not able to think independently.

Well that didn't take long...

It's not that it's too complicated, it's that it takes too fucking long with players agonizing over squeezing every bit of BP they can and get EVERYTHING they want.

These "reviews" don't actually say much. If they were bought and paid for, they didn't get a lot for the investment.

You were so wrong. It took nearly 18 minutes, and even 6 minutes after you wrote this

Load of reviewers have been given the PDF for free, so their review can come out just before the final release day. There was even a call for reviewers a few days ago, and they would all be given the PDF for free.

And the other reviewer has bought the Origins edition himself (or at least that's how I read it).

I used to do reviews for Danish gaming magazine, and even though I got all my review material for free, I was honest and thrashed things that need thrashing. You can't be expected to do reviews if you are not honest.

The only thing you consistently prove is your distinct lack of insight in matters big and small.

Indeed. Got a bit of an impression that they were clearly reviews by people who aren't really that familiar with the system, and only read the book real fast for the review rather than playing with it. Such is life.

Aye, sort of short. But then they may be breaking it into sections for more indepth later.

Will have to see what the Cannibal Halfling says.....

I think these reviews address what I'm hoping the new system has added.

1) Priority system at the expense of customization
I have a feeling that Dumpshockers in general play a somewhat different game from the general public. This is an unofficial fan forum, which lends itself to people who are *really* into Shadowrun. As I mentioned before, while I appreciate the customization available through the BP or Karma chargen, it is a HUGE obstacle to new players. A game system should not require an entire session to create characters; you should be able to come to the table with a concept and an hour later be ready to play. This addresses that.

2) Quality of the Materials
This I'm really glad to hear. As many of you who are only familiar with 4th may not know, Shadowrun has a checkered past with book quality. I think I own 2-3 copies of SR3 (I have one on my bookshelf that is rebound with office spirel). I am really glad to hear that SR5 is a quality, hefty book; basically just that they haven't reverted to SR3 quality.

3) Limits, 1 attack per round, etc.
I think I am going to like these changes. One of my friends who ran a game basically did this for SR4, because there was an abundance of cyberzombies who were also extremely persausive. I love the concept of a cheap gun being inherently less accurate than a $1,000 nuyen rifle. In addition, anything they have added to streamline the game without taking too much away (combining the class 2 SA attacks into a short burst, new hacker rules) will be a welcome addition to my table.

Again, I'm extremely pumped. I know there are things that people don't like for whatever reason, but I'm confident that this new edition will solve a lot of the headaches I've had as a GM, and give me a new system to work with that is less cumbersome than it's predecessors.

-DrZ

EDIT: Another note on the priority system. This can also help the new players just get started without making someone too unplayable. I know that it's taken me a while to figure out how I want to chunk out that 400 BP, and I've been playing SR4 since it came out. To someone brand new to the game, that inherent knowledge isn't hardwired. If they come to the table wanting to play a Troll, they can see now that there is a significant cost associated, and plan accordingly. It's significantly more idiot proof, and I think that's a great change (or in this case, reversion to a previous system).

Both reviewers tackled the game from the perspective of transitioning from 4th to 5th.

I'm curious if there are any reviewers who are either new to Shadowrun or transitioning from an older edition.

I'm more interested in actual play reports. Production values I expected to be excellent (CGL is good at putting out shiny products), but actual playability is something that often gets missed.

I have actually play(test)ed SR5, but not the final version that was released.

It was pretty fun. During a pitched gun battle at the Fort Lewis Zoo, an elven decker PC wirelessly hacked a Chimera assassin's cortex bomb and detonated it. It was awesome.

Guess that is one way to get a head

doubtful. the head was probably in a rather unusable condition, and you'd likely need a vacuum cleaner if you don't want to miss any of it

What I find _slightly_ amusing is the second author's notion that priority gen will stop munchkin builds

Probably just a case of "everything was better in the past" bias, though...

Yeah pretty meaningless previews, the second one especially was apparently fully based on just reading the book.
And not a single mention of the wireless bonuses BS in either preview, so much fail.

Examples of posts that can get Warnings.

I am the only person in my group that posts to DS although we have another that lurks from time to time. Not one of us has touched the 4th ed priority system with a 10' troll.

Which is kinda understandable when you know that 10' trolls no longer existed in 4th edition, the average size dropping from 9'2" to mere 8'2".

Guess it was some sort of trollback

ArcMart
Saving you nuyen, every day.

Reviews catering to the casual gamer. Since 5E *does* fix a couple things that need fixing, the wifi boni and other problems I personally have are not at the surface of the system, so they were about what I expected. Visual quality seems outstanding, going by the previews; personally, I really like the black-red-white layout, and the return of tables so far, by and large.

Come jul 11, I'll just compose my own review.

Ditto Hermit...

Overall the reviews seem well done. They focus a lot on the start of things... char gen. I have no issues with chargen & priority... as far as I'm concerned... priority or BP are about the same in their problems only BP is far more complicated and has problems with 'too much choice' for inexperienced players. Karmagen is the best idea (since advancement costs & buid costs are by definition the same... but SR4 made a complete dogs dish of it producing the worst chargen process by the rules by doing it).


The reviews don't really do much more than scratch the surface. Most of the complaints that are coming up in form aren't about the gloss, production value, layout etc. They're about core mechanical problems and editorial decisions by the line developer such as the decision to make attributes even more important than they already are in SR4 and make skills/skillgroups suck more in comparison.

Yes, but theses are the bar that new players to the system use to determine its appeal. New blood is the key to the continued survival of the game we all love. Without a profitable business model the continued growth of the game goes away.

That only works if there's more new blood then there are old blood leaving and even then it's a toss ip.

Gamers always come back.

That is a given. What is also a give is that there WILL be old blood leaving. the challenge is finding this balance. Even if the new players equaled the players leaving it would not be enough to stay in business. Without new blood the game/business is Doomed. A base rule system should strive to draw in these new players. The expansions (the companion in the case of SR) are for advanced CharGen and gameplay options for the old blood. While you cannot be successful ignoring the old blood, the new player must be the priority in the long term.

Really did gamers come back to DnD4 (and DnD5...). No they pretty much jumped whole hog into pathfinder I've found (making core classes something you want to play did a whole lot towards getting rid of the prestige class problem while not eliminating them; much akin to priority vs bp).


I have the book on pre-order at my FLGS. I will get it... I will play it. But then that is the same thing I did with DnD4... I got the starting book... played it a few months went this is garbage and never touched the line again.

If that's the case I'll simply turn about to using the used book rack to fill out my earlier edition SR collection.

Or I might abandon PnP for other ways to get a SR fix... such as the computer games.

Netrunner has been doing a great job of scratching my cyberpunk itch as well.

Your D&D4 story sounds like my SR4 experience. Even with some issues, I still have high hopes SR5 goes better. If not, I have pretty much a complete collection of SR1 and SR2, and a good chunk of SR3 I can turn back to.

I quite look forward to it.

All I can say is that I've seen too many RPGers that sold off their rule books and ended up buying them (or the current edition) back again a few years later.
Shoot I sold my Runequest Pavis and Big Rubble campaign box sets after college and I can look over at my gaming shelf and see the ones I bought (used) to replace them.

I'll grant that DnD4 and 5 may be an example of an EXTREME case.

Keeping fresh blood coming in is more important then keeping all the old blood happy as long as they treat what brought the old blood in to the game with respect.
Cause you can't make everyone happy.

And with both a PC game and an online game coming out over the next few months, there is going to be a ton of fresh blood coming in so this is the time to make the game more friendly to those new to Shadowrun.

Plus it seems like they are trying to bring back the best of 3rd edition in 5th.
So they are going to be bringing some of the Old Old blood back in to the game.



I'm glade that the Lead Designers are not afraid to make big changes to the system.
A few things really needed it.
I just think that in a couple of places we may be getting too much of a good thing.

I like seeing SR3 embraced, but want to see a little less of SR4 erased.
Can we please dial back the Lead Designers just a little

Some more reviews:
http://www.enklave-23.de/wordpress/2013/07...edition-review/
http://www.thewargamingaddict.com/review-o...th-edition-rpg/
http://www.rpgamer.com/savingthrow/reviews/rev-SR5.html
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/63154
http://secondleft.blogspot.ca/2013/07/revi...ion-part-i.html

An interview with JMH:
http://roleplayerschronicle.com/?p=36833

And a podcast:
http://www.allusgeeks.com/2013/07/episode-...h-on-shadowrun/

I haven't read all of them yet and haven't listened to the podcast either. Just aggregated from twitter feed.

The review for Saving throw was kind of funny.

The part where he basically lumped the technomancers as the guys surfing the web with magic made me chuckle, though to be fair if you didn't play and know the history it would look like it.

I think his review of 2 out of 5 was a little harsh, but then he already admitted he was not a fan to start so his point was he didn't see anything making it worth it to him to convert. But that's always going to be a tough one to surmount.

His review was also weird in the sense that he mentioned the limits as limiting the size of dicepools.

Also the wargame addict also lists technomancer as magical
This is ligtly worry some as it implies that the book really doesn't do good enought job at explaining technomancers.

Surprisingly to me, doesn't include any real history. No mention of the Great Ghost Dance, Lone Eagle Incident or the like. It gives brief mention to UGE, date of the Awakening and mentions Dunklezhan was elected president, and then assassinated, but it fails to give real context to these items. I understand that the Shadowrun history has gotten very complex but the exclusion of any real discussion on the Native American uprising resulting in the NAN I'd imagine would leave a new player or GM scratching their head trying to figure how the world works. It's mentioned that Seattle is on its own in a sea of NAN, but no talk as to why.

Having originally gotten into SR because I picked up a the timeline and found it fascinating, I can only say WTF?

Giants are 10' trolls.

Strange. Double post.

Congrats on finding the only two existing errors in the book I am sure all the fans will be relieved that the will not be more errata later on!

Oh, wait!

I also love the hyperbolic "SR4 errata is 20 pages long", even the latest errata is only 5 pages long.

The new writers, as I recall, aren't required to have any real awareness of the history of the gameworld. The people who did mostly quit on account of not being paid. How is this a surprise?