Karmagen has always been in my opinion the "best" chargen system since it uses the same character advancement rules as you would see in-game. I'm sorry Trolls get the short end of the stick, but that's up to the developers of this game to fix if they truly see it as a problem. Instead they give us a system even more restrictive than BP and tell us on these very forums how wrong we are to want to specialize our characters. As it stands, SR5 is totally unplayable to me since in my personal mindset I can't willingly take an attribute at 3 when I would be "losing" X karma by not taking it at 6 and formulating other dump stats. I also can't make the kind of characters I like (attribute focused, lots of low skills) since I am locked into the point totals of the priority ranks and, again, am punished for taking any attribute or skill below the max allowed.

So, they hauled Jensen in and decided to rip out his other ware and stuff a bunch of cyberparts on him. Without asking, of course.

Suddenly he went down to the Normal rules, but that's okay for this test.





Moral of the Story: Cyberparts freakin' rock in this.

In your writeup of the Normal level Adept your write (emphasis mine).

Unless I missed a statement from the Devs in the Errata thread, what you want is no longer possible as Critical Strike now doesn't have a rating anymore, it gives a flat +1DV in the chosen skill (can be taken once per skill where applicable, though).

The book adept has 2 levels of Unarmed Strike Critical Strike. I actually assumed it was the way you mentioned as well, until I saw that the archetype had 2 levels of it. Now it may have been a misprint and those two levels were Unarmed and something else. I'm actually not too sure.

A Dev stated that Critical Strike changed somewhere late in the process, where Critical Strike became a +1DV per choice per skill, once per skill. So the Archetype example is wrong.

Cool with me-makes the decision to only give him 1 level of it in the first place good. I'll make sure when I put my next article up I'll include that in. (I can't say I mind the new Critical Strike with only 1 per skill, actually.)

We're discussing this Critical Strike thing too, over in this thread. Looks like there is some ambiguity and errata needed one way or t'other.

Here's the aforementioned Dev I mentioned talking about the issue: Here. And the reasoning behind the change.

I do think, all in all, it's positive. While the Ork/Troll thing doesn't much apply(I tend to play them against stereotype and use them for thinky or social roles), what actually I like about it is that it makes *weapon adepts* more viable again. Before, Critical Strike adepts were too easily surpassing people with big stabby things. Now, Stabby adepts surpass them in sheer base damage(as well they should, and I say this as a fan of unarmed), but Unarmed adepts have the edge of not needing to invest in a pretty expensive Foci to hit stuff with immunity to normal weapons, as well as not having to rely on their weapon's Accuracy.

The fella I made hits for 11P. He's not even got his Foci yet to take his strength to 11(thanks to Exceptional Attribute he can get that), which will net him 13P after that and his knucks(for the record, at our table, knucks stack with critical strike, whether or not that's in the book.)

(I do admit, I hope to see Penetrating Strike back. You could only stack that to 3 as it was, so it wasn't overpowered, but gave a nice little edge.) I imagine we'll see some Martial Arts rules, though I actually wonder if Bonus DV will be making an appearance again. (I didn't have a problem with it, but I feel that bonus DV should be limited to +1, for any sort of attack. That will keep blades ahead but let people get a little something if they want-then again, perhaps martial arts should be more about maneuvers and other benefits, like bonus Reach and stuff like that. Downfall wants Kick Attack.)

Much obliged

I think this kind of statement deserves a little sarcasm: except for chargen, initiative, attacks, defense, recoil, the entire Matrix, magic drain, direct and indirect combat spells, riggers, vehicles, and most cyberware and gear, they're the same.



And I think this is better for making characters -- strengths and weaknesses rather than averages.



Different philosophy. Should characters be able to mitigate all their weaknesses at chargen? Should tech-based Awakened easily be able to slip around the majority of negatives that mixing tech and magic create?

There is a difference between GLARING weaknesses and ALL OF THEIR Weeknesses.

There's a difference between 'glaring' weaknesses and 'just not as good at stuff' as well. Maybe the tech adept can only start with a very tightly-focused range of skills. Maybe he can only afford one really decent piece of 'ware to start. Maybe his attributes are pretty average compared to people who have more points to specialize. Maybe his Magic is really low compared to other adepts.

Why exactly is any of this a bad thing?

Epicedion, why do you insist on telling us how we should play the game? We had perfectly usable karma and bp gen in SR4A that they have decided to neglect until the Companion book in favor of an IMO bad new restrictive method. Why do we have to like the same thing you do?

What? You're free to complain about Priority and how bad-awful-terrible-gameruining it is, but rebuttal is considered "telling you how to play the game?" How bizarre.

I went and developed up a Karmagen system. It has not gone through extensive testing yet, but I plan on fixing it up onto one document and then giving it a post up here. It seems about right where I can see a Karmagen system being at the moment.

I decided to run some numbers on the priority generation, mostly focused on magic/resonance.

Looking at Priority B, it seems pretty obvious that adepts and aspected magicians are valued equally; they both get the same side benefits right?

Jumping up to Priority C however, magicians and adepts have the equivalent of 50 and 51 karma of benefits respectively, but aspected magician only has 40, so for some inexplicable reason aspected magician is now considered more valuable than either adept or a full magician by ~10 karma, and gets less benefits to compensate.

Now at Priority B, magicians and adepts are again equal at 120 karma of value, but aspected magicians are suddenly at 145 karma value, so in the exact opposite of C, both adepts and magicians are 25 karma more valuable than aspected, instead of less valuable.*

Technomancers at Priority C, B, and A have 26, 93, and 168 karma of benefits respectively, so the technomancer quality is apparently considered considerably more valuable than any of the magical qualities, but not by a consistent amount.


I have been increasingly viewing the Magic/Resonance category as a whole a problem, in regards to how it basically says awakened characters use Priority E while mundanes are on a 4-category system. It should have been handled the same way metatype was - if you want to play a human, you are not locked at priority E, you can do so at higher priorities to get additional benefits.

On the subject of high priority humans and mundanes, did you realize the system allows you to play a human at A, and mundane at E? While doing so, you have an Edge attribute of 7, and four additional points for special attributes that you are quite literally unable to use (well, you could take Lucky and only have 3 unused points...)

The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced priority is a piece of shit.



I am also having progressively worse issues with the layout of the book, particularly where the examples will interrupt rules text for pages at a time, mid sentence.


Edit: Apparently a number was added randomly in my calculation for priority B aspected magicians, and the actual value of their 'bonuses' is 120 - the same as adept and magician/mystic adept. While this means the problem is far less extreme, it's still there - aspected magician has the same cost as a full magician, for no apparent reason.

or, alternately, you could solve your problems by not choosing human at priority A when you already know it's going to be way more than you need.

Jaid, as a mundane human, your choices for metatype priority is literally C or lower. B, even with lucky, will waste points, and so will A. Which seems like a problem to me, because all priority matches should be mostly viable.

the only way for them to have possibly managed that is to make sure never to add more points than someone could use... ie, priority A human could be 5.

but that would suck. instead, they made it scale to a point where it's a potentially good investment for someone who is awakened or... err... emerged? resonating? whatever technomancers consider themselves.

i mean, are you going to try to tell me that resources A isn't a terrible investment for a magician? sure, they *could* spend it all, but it's *waaaaay* beyond what you need to make an effective magician.

the high end is generally only useful to people that need it, in any category. being able to waste the stuff that goes way beyond what you're ever likely to need doesn't make it good.

just pick something else for priority A and B other than human. that's the advantage of being a mundane human. it gives you a useful bonus, in that it leaves you more points to spend elsewhere.

i mean, really what do you want? you could let someone spend those excess points on attributes. but wait, there's already a category that lets you put lots of points in attributes at priority A.

what possible area do you imagine you could invest it in that isn't already covered by just not picking priority A for human in the first place?

Or, they could have changed the 'Magic/Resonance' category to 'Special Attributes', and tiered it with adept/magician/etc, and points to special attributes. Then change the 'Metatype' category to cover how much Karma you receive.

You know, something along the lines of making a 5-category system actually five categories for everyone involved.

Something like E gives 1 point, D gives 3 points OR adept/aspected and 1 point, C gives 6 points OR adept/aspected and 4 points OR magician/mystic/technomancer and 2 points.


Edit: Oh, and there's a huge difference between having resources you don't really need, and resources you can't use.

When you lose unspent karma/ nuyen at the end of character generation, it really is exactly the same thing.

What next? People complaining because they take magic at C on a mundane character concept?

Heaven forbid you should have to stop and think about what priority you choose.

So I went to my doctor and said, "Hey, doc, my wrist hurts when I turn it like this."

My doctor said, "Stop turning it like that, then."

No, it's not the same thing. If you take resources A, it's a failure of YOUR imagination if you can't spend all the resources. If you take Human A, it's a failure of THE SYSTEM that you can't spend all the resources.

However there are ways that you can use Human A that don't waste points. It's not rocket science to simply not choose Human A if you don't fit the criteria for making it useful.

fine, here's your solution: in games you play, from now on human priority A is 5 attribute points. it gains 1 point per priority rating, since it starts with 1 at D.

now priority A human sucks for everyone equally. problem solved.

this is seriously stupid. the advantage is that you pick something else for priority A.

but here, since you're all completely incapable of figuring this out, here's a new system:

if you choose priority A human and priority E for magic/resonance, you get a bonus to whatever your priority C is.

if your priority C is resources, add 310,000 nuyen.
if your priority C is skills, add 18/8 to your skills.
if your priority C is attributes, add 8.

now, you may look at that and say, "hey, that's exactly the same as just choosing priority C for human and priority A for whatever i put into priority C" to which i would respond: yes. yes it is. it is, in fact, exactly the same in every way except that i'm calling it something different. and it's a pretty large bonus, so stop complaining about stupid choices being a stupid choice, and stop making the stupid choice.

if you can actually legitimately think of something that is not covered by a different priority choice that you would like to select, then go ahead and speak up. otherwise, just figure out which damn category will improve the thing you'd like to enhance instead, and pick that.

seriously, this is ridiculous.

it's like having a choice between punching yourself in the head, or getting 5 dollars, and then watching people refuse to make the choice because punching themselves in the head is such an obviously bad option... you don't have to take the bad option that sucks. there are good options available, and it doesn't take a super genius to figure out what they are. just pick the good option in the first place, and there is no problem.

I think these are called "trap options" in character generation and shouldn't be allowed to exist. Aren't these rules supposed to be geared more towards new players? Having trap options that only more experienced players know about is bad.

In general, (to me) this just again shows a failure of the devs to really look at details. Whether or not you say "it's not rocket science" to not to choose mundane Human A and therefore have unusable resources, the basic fact is that the system shouldn't give you the choice in the first place.

hyperbole...just say no

I too feel like you crossed the line from "rebuttal" to the other one.

No, a 'trap' option is a choice that unexpectedly disadvantages your character, but it wasn't obvious until you get into play and it's too late to change.

The only drawback with choosing Priority 'A' for a mundane human is that you waste ten minutes during character creation going back and choosing a more sensible priority for Race, which gives you more points in something else.

Which is absolutely no different to juggling points/karma in other systems. If anything, it's simpler.

The same quote out of context again? Nice. Especially when the guy I was specifically responding to seemed to take it in the spirit it was intended, while you seem to have been highly offended for some indiscernible reason. You know, about the point you started ripping into me for saying how my take on the Priority system didn't count because I was using it for NPCs.

Apparently I was doing it wrong...

Highly offended? No. There's your hyperbole yet again. Sarcasm? "Ripping in to you"? You sound highly offended here, not me.

And it's too bad you misunderstood, I wasn't saying your take on the Priority system didn't count, I was saying that your attempt at a rebuttal was wrong for specific reasons.

Yeah, thinking about it some more, you're probably right, that's not the correct term for what this is.

Theoretically, in the older systems, you could shove Human on a higher Priority line. You didn't *get* anything for doing this, mind you.

Now, I'm going to go on both sides of the argument here. On the side 'for'-well, if you're not Magically Active, you don't take Human as Priority A. If you are a Street Sam, you don't take Resources as Priority E. There's stuff you just don't do. If you're building a sam under ANY system, you don't take 6,000 Nuyen. If you're playing a mundane human, pick another row. Simple. It's *meant* for Magically Active humans who want a high Edge.

Now, to jump on the other side, I can understand frustrations. I understand that some think there should be sorta viability for all levels of Priority. I can then understand that 'there is no reason to take Priority A human as a mundane' is a bugbear(or, well, I can also understand Priority systems in general-a lot of people have been using Karmagen now for a very long time, and then get swapped out of it.)

I do stand by I like the layout though-I LIKE being able to see rules while I read, as it helps me understand them better, but that is, IMO, very much a YMMV area since everyone reads differently.

Almost finished I think tweaking the first draft of Karmagen. It has a bit of a controversial swing to it, I'd use it at our table, since I know it wouldn't really be a problem. It won't be a problem with some, but possibly others(however, in a couple of tests already, it works fine). It does, however, take away all the freebies, which was a sad loss, but it gives complete Karma control. Will probably post draft 1 today.

Maybe we should increase the max Edge for human to 12. That should fix things.

*cough*

On a more serious front, if you want to add in some fiddlin', give humans that take B or A for race some extra "slush fund" karma instead of more freebie points for allocation. Say 25 more Karma for B and 60 for A (To pull numbers out of thin air). You'll want to come up with more exact numbers than a sleepy Wak at 2 AM will, of course, but if you want to make a houserule, feel free. Bull's not going to drive over to your house and steal your supply of knees, honest.

CanRay maybe, but only if he's hopped up on maple syrup.

Shadowrun players are smart, smart cookies. I have full faith that you'll be able to figure out something fitting for your games.

If you want to choose a couple of B's instead of an A and a B, and choose two D's instead of a D and an E as a bonus for that, once again, I don't exect anyone will really complain. You lose way more than you gain, but, I have one player in my D&D game who goes ballistic at the idea of having an 8 "forced" on him by chargen and happily trades his 15 and 8 in for a 14 and a 10, despite how much it'll cost him down the road. He just loathes the idea of being penalized, ever.

It's all good, yo. Ain't no wrong way to play Shadowrun, as long as, you know, you *play*. High energy million-nuyen-stealing master criminals with a timing and plan that makes the Oceans Eleven crew look like the Three Stooges, street-dwelling guys who munch charred rat-on-a-stick and suffer in teh rain but will never work for The Man, transhuman body-hopping digitals and cybernetic brains, space jumpers, an all-magic group that patrols CHinatown fighting hopping vampire, an erotic furry adventure, whatever you enjoy.

With Shadowrun 5, you get a bunch of colors and a blank canvas. Feel free to paint anything you want.

I can't take that chance. I need my knees; I keep my most important walking joints there!

EDIT: Gave it it's own thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39214

Doesnt that deserve its own thread?

Hmm, I figured I'd drop it here since there was a lot of priority discussion going on, but perhaps it might be better in a thread of it's own.