So I have been looking over the rules to try and find a way for non-decker runners to protect themselves from getting their gear bricked. Though after looking at the rules I feel like a decker isn't going to do much more damage in a combat turn than a guy with a gun.

Anyways, my idea:

The rules say that if a decker is trying to find icons that are running silently she makes a Matrix Perception test to see if there are devices running silent. The decker can then identify the device through an opposed check. But the rules say that if there are multiple devices running silent the decker needs to choose which one to identify.

So if you spend, say 500 on 50 sealth RFID tags, the decker is going to have to choose from the say 60 hidden icons he finds with only a 1 in 6 chance of finding something worth bricking.

I can't find anything that says this WON'T work, but expect either an errata or something in the Matrix sourcebook whenever it drops addressing it. And if you play in my game, I'd give you one free pass and that's it (find one RFID tag, you find them all). It just feels cheesier than a 10 kilo block of Velveeta.

Fuck that. I think it's a brilliant plan given RAW. Sucks to be a decker ^_^

That won't work. If you know some detail about what hidden icon you're looking for, you get to look for it specifically (don't recall the page reference off the top of my head). So if there's one Ingram Smartgun and fifty shades of hidden RFID tags, the hacker will be able to look for (and probably spot) the weapon.

I thought so too and specifically read the section on noticing devices (p234-236). You ask if there's anything running silent. You are told by the GM yes or no. If yes, you then can make an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Logic + Sleaze test. If there are more than one icons running silent, you choose randomly which one you make the test against. Not the one you're looking for, try again.

Except...hang on, going to check something...may have found a flaw...

Frankly, I like it. Use the idiocy of the matrix's design to hide in the noise.

Slightly less cheesy but still just as effective is having the entire team carry a half dozen or so Meta Link commlinks each.

Okay, not a DIRECT contradiction of the plan, but something you can use as a GM to counter-rules-lawyer against this tactic. The definition of Running Silent on p. 235 states basically you can switch any device you own to Running Silent including your commlink, deck, or living persona. To do so, however, it would need to be part of your PAN or else you wouldn't have access to it. So you can set it to Running Silent all you want, but unless it's slaved to your commlink/deck, you can't keep it going (and if you do, you run up against your slave limit). Again, it's as flexible a reading as the one that generated this tactic, but always remember Rule Zero.

If you find the flaw, please let me know. I also agree that this is a very sleazy way of winning against deckers, but according to RAW it works.

The only question I have about it is what action is it to identify icons. The rules say that a Matrix Perception is a Complex action, which includes both scanning for a device running silent and spotting it. But assuming I have found multiple hidden devices, how many can I identify within one IP (either the first time round or one my second IP).

With the rules right now, only one. You decide randomly which icon you identify. If you don't win or you tie, the icon stays hidden. The first net hit gets you what the icon is, and each additional hit gets you more information about it (type, rating, any files it's carrying, what grid it's on, what marks it has on it). I'd expect the Matrix book to boost that so you can split the hits among multiple icons either on the same grid or within the 100m range of your antenna, but that's not in the rules yet.

As far as the flaw, what I have above is the closest I've got. It's not much, but it's enough wiggle room for you to invoke Rule Zero as a GM to shut it down.

Looks plausible, but easily defeated. If this becomes common practice, a relatively cheap jammer will provide enough noise to shut down pesky RFIDs and let you get at the chewy commlink center.

EDIT: Also if 150 unknown hidden devices suddenly show up when a spider runs a sweep, he might shit a brick and send for the army.

"Stealth tags: A stealth tag always runs silent (p. 235)
and has a Sleaze rating equal to its Device Rating."

you don't need to slave a stealth tag. it keeps itself running silent.

Page 235 specifies in the Matrix Perception sidebar that:


The "below" then refers to making the proper Computer + Int vs. Logic + Sleaze test. The point is that you can spot (try to spot, really) that ONE icon.

Hence, it's between you and the GM what he defines as a "feature" but "a Persona, not a RFID" might be good enough.

I can see how that could be an answer. I had thought that line meant that if you spot an icon then the owner switches it to running silent and you lose it (as per the Spotting Duration section on the same page). Then when you scan for hidden devices you can tell which hidden icon is the one you just lost.

But you could then just buy the cheapest deck and the Wrapper program and make all the stealth tags and devices look like credsticks. Though I feel like the Wrapper program only works on devices slaved to the deck which would mean the decker wouldn't need to try to find a useful device in the mess.

But it does come down to what the book means by a "feature" and how the decker knows that feature.

Stick the tags in gel rounds and shoot them at your enemies.

Just for clarification, switching to Silent does not break spotting. Only the Hide Action will break a spot (whether you were running silent to begin with or not). If it's not running silent, a Matrix Perception test will spot it again. If it is, since you already had access to the icon being hidden, you probably determined some feature and should be allowed to immediately roll on Computer+Int again to spot it.

Concerning Wrapper, be aware that it only changes the icon of a device. You could make your weapon look like a tripod, for example. It does not require slaving and just states "your icons" which includes files and pretty much anything you want. Some mad fun can be had with that as you should be able to wrap any of your icons (that you own Marks 4). However, the "look" of an icon is only one feature. If you make all your icons look like a Cyberdeck or Commlink, the GM could rule that "I sort by icons that have XYZ rating or higher" could be a feature. Otherwise, I currently don't see how that's not massively abusable. /shrug

See that feels extremely wrong.

If the look for icons is that minor, why does it take an illegal program to override the matrix protocols to change the icons look.

And the idea that, having found a few dozen hidden icons, you can sort them by details about the devices the icons represent seems like it completely bypasses the point of silent running. You need to get a net hit on a matrix perception check to know the rating of a device, so being able to sort all the hidden icons by rating feels very outside the rules.

The idea of the Wrapper program, to me seemed to be to hidden illegal programs and devices when they are running wireless. You don't want a passing Knight Errant officer to see you walking down the street with a duffle bag and you have an icon for a Panther assault cannon following you in AR. So assuming that a decker can pick out a specific device from a list of hidden icons, the wrapper program should be capable of editing that information at least to the point that the decker needs to make another matrix perception check to see through it.

Why is your panther assault cannon online? Why is it even accessing the Martrix while you are travelling? Easiest way to hide is to not enable the wireless; then, no matter what the decker rolls, it still will not be found. *shrug*

My thoughts exactly. Any equipment should be turned 'WiFi disabled' at all times and only switched on for the short duration it's actually needed. Of course, if you are in the middle of a run against your neighborhood Generic Corp, INC. building, there's some things you might want to keep on, just in case of trouble (primary weapon, certain 'ware, and related gear), but that would most likely be a manageable amount of items you could slave to a high-rating commlink.

If I take Build/Repair in the appropriate skills, what is it going to take threshold wise to completely disable/remove the wifi capacity in these weapons?

Am just seeing a thriving black market for 'blanked' weapons/gear. You can even solder on a small slot so you can slot in a dummy RFID chips to broadcast whatever you want it to appear as for those times when you don't want to run completely dark. So you could have a Rugar Warhawk that has a slotted chip broadcasting its a Yahama Taser or something innocuous. Won't stand up to a visual inspection but for items under the jacket or bag it won't give you away either and will waste a decker's time hacking a dummy item.

Yes it means giving up wireless bonuses, but I can think a few folk who would rather just have the thing off radar entirely with no chance of remote/nanite activation

The Ruger Super Warhawk doesn't have a WiFi option. As far as I see it you don't need to remove the WiFi option. If WiFi is off, the only one who can activate it again is you (I am assuming that turning the WiFi bonus off completely turns off WiFi on the device, meaning you have to push a button to start up WiFi on the device again). Nice touch and idea with the chip, though, very cool food for thought.

Yes, meant to say Predator (with smartgun system)

Running dark with wifi off is simplest of course, but there are nanites that can turn 'on' your wireless and a few sneaky ways wifi could be reactivated so was looking at total removal.

This option would not be for everyone, but for some really paranoid sorts I can see them paying for this and the customer is always right (so long as they can pay the bill)

That's a fair question. The answer is that the look of icons isn't actually all that minor. In SR4, when anything was allowed to look like anything, you had to make a Matrix Perception Test every time you encountered a new icon, just to figure out whether you were looking at a tiny text file or a gigantic social node. We added the "sumptuary laws" to make game play smoother, and in the bargain we got a little something extra that sets hackers apart from normal users in the Wrapper program.

As far as in-universe reasoning goes, the answer is simple. GOD is imposing a draconian version of the W3C standards. Think of it as a distopian dress code (”no hats, no spaghetti straps, pants and skirts must fall below the knee, children”).

pg 424 "Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital ammunition counter... All firearms have the following wireless bonuses on each model:"

Looks like the Ruger does come with wireless straight out of the box.

Actually, in one of the examples they state that the Super Warhawk's icon is a tomahawk.

Wow, I totally missed that. Thanks.

I think I found way around this, so bare with me:

Matrix Action "Hide" (pg. 240) states you cannot hide from an icon that has a mark on you.

If I understand Marks correctly, you could mark the master and the slave would get a mark as well. If true, then you should see all slaved devices on that master.

EDIT:

Also, Matrix Perception notes that if you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot it. Would running Smartgun software be considered a feature?

Who knows? It's not written anywhere!

I think it's the other way around. If you getamarkonthe slave, you also get a mark on the master.


I'd say yes, but that would make it a guessing game among al hidden smartguns within 100 meters. Your GM might have a different opinion, though.

@Aaron: Can you potentially define what is meant by "feature" in the Matrix Perception table on p.235? I am growing concerned that running with 50 RFIDs and a Wrapper program negates Decking quite a lot.

If my group finds a group of enemies that has their equipment run silent and also has 100+ silent RFIDs in their pockets, what's the point for me to even try at that point?

And, on the contrary, if I bring 50 Wrapped RFIDs with me, all running silent and just run Attack actions (as described on p.236) whether I fail or not, the target does not automatically spot me. It has to run Matrix Perceptions to find me which gets almost impossible as it runs into 50+ silent icons to choose from. Isn't that also broken?

I can tell you what the author (me¹) intended as the definition of the term feature: an important or main item. So if your target has an Ingram Smartgun and fifty shades of stealth RFIDs, all in hidden mode, you can narrow your search to "that Ingram Smartgun right there" and you don't have to worry about the tags. Of course, if there are other hidden Ingram Smartguns in the vicinity, your GM is quite justified, I think, in making you select from them at random.

Hope that helps.

¹Just because I wrote the chapter doesn't make me the Grand Arbiter of the Matrix Rules; there are only a couple-three people who get to make word-is-law pronouncements about the official Shadowrun rules, and I'm not one of 'em. That's especially true at your table, so check with your GM.

That seems fair enough to me, Aaron. I would think it safer for a Sam who wants to run at full capacity might find himself a bit safer slaving to a high device rating commlink and throwing IC in it. Although I've only given the matrix chapter a glance so far.

IC can only run on hosts in SR5.

I'm going to put smartgun systems on my stealth FRID tags.

Because I can.

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It's actually a lot easier to run the Wrapper cyberprogram then you'd think. Cyberdecks aren't the only device that can run it. You can also use an RCC (Rigger Control Console), the cheapest of which "Scratch Built-Junk" is only $1600 and can run a single cyberprogram. While a Control Rig is needed to be a rigger, as it is required to jump into a drone, no such restriction is required to own and operate an RCC. As noted on page 269, RCCs can use the Wrapper program, although it's a riggers variant version so no borrowing the decker's copy. That's an outlay of $1,825 to be able to change the icon on any device you own. Of course the RCC is about the size of a briefcase instead of a large phone, so it has a downside.

Also note that the Matrix Perception list on page 235 lists "if it is using a non-standard (or even illegal) look." Which means if you are running Wrapper and have successfully taken the Change Icon action on an RFID, you can make it look like gun, and unless the Decker spends one of hits from a perception check on verifying Icon, they will likely fall for it. This is especially likely if they didn't need to make the Perception roll to see the icon, say because it's within 100 meters?

The plan: Buy some standard RFID tags and attach them to your gear. Change those RFID Icons to look like the gear they are attached to: The Tomahawk icon on your Rugger Warhawk, etc. Run your actual gear in silent mode. Should you run into an enemy decker or security spider, they will most likely target the obvious Icon which they can automatically see if within 100 meters, rather than spending a complex action to make a Matrix Perception check on it see if it's actually the legal Icon for the device, or to try and spot stealth devices, which they can do if they can see the device. When a Street Sam is firing a gun at you, and you target the weapon icon floating in matrix space near his gun, not check to see if his gun icon is a cunning decoy.

Of course once they gain access to the icon, or just brick the RFID, they may realize something is going on, but hopefully you've shot him by then with the gun he thought he hacked.

BRILLIANT

Having thought about this some more, it appears that it would just be a huge liability and get you caught and located really easily on a run.

The local security decker would probably be doing regular scans for hidden icons, and Stealth Tags only get 6 dice to resist identification and tracing. So if you're carrying around a bag of tags, odds are the decker would notice the spike in hidden targets, then easily identify and trace at least one of the tags, and send a security squad to intercept.

Since you can't slave all those chips to the decker, you won't be able to take advantage of a "stealth mode" decker running Sneak and Stealth (and with a good deck, that's worth 8 Sleaze and +2 versus Trace) for Logic +10, so conceivably 16 or 18 dice once you consider bioware, etc.

So basically you can hide like crazy with ~16 dice protecting your location, or you can carry a bucket of RFID tags with 6 dice and get spotted and traced quickly. And the worst part about the tags is that without a connection to one, you won't know if anyone's attempting to spot or mark you, or if they've succeeded.

But for a diversion, since Change Icon is a Data Processing job, could you attach the RFID tag 'blanks' along with a cheap commlink to a rat or similiar, set it to change the chips icons and maintain the illusion to include a smartgun, maybe a cyberlimb and a few bits and bobs that would make someone think it was a regular runner. Maybe not best on the run itself, but for having to make a getaway releasing these behind you to scatter the trail so to speak....

Seems sensible to me. You'd see bundles of icons running away in all directions.

No Nanites in SR5 Currently. Maybe later.

Yes, but that is just because of the long gaming tradition of reprinting all the stuff again in a new edition for more sales.


They will be coming and best to start planning countermeasures now because nuyen to donuts it will be retconned to have been around ages.

My solution would be to just not allow stealth RFIDs. An RFID tag is a passive device. If you want something that can run software, and thus have a sleaze rating, you're talking a form of miniature specialized cyberdeck, which should have an appropriate cost.

Of course...

I spend all day at work bandying with Jason about this on his ENWorld post. Every solution he came up with is something that was either covered on this post or I'd already shot down.

I will, however, remind everyone once again of Rule Zero: The GM is ALWAYS right. You try to pull that crap in my game more than once, expect OBB. I'm not the guy that's going to send a combat decker to take out your cyber/gun every single combat, but I damn well will become the guy who points out "You didn't notice that glancing wound from the security guard did you? Blood makes a great ritual sample. Roll Logic + Willpower to resist the overwhelming urge to mow down all your teammates then eat the barrel of your Ares Alpha yourself."

A Commlink can't run the Wrapper cyberprogram, or any other cyberprogram, so it can't be used change an icon in such a way as to disguise what it is. An RFID tag can't look like a smartlink without the wrapper program.

Also, I don't think a commlink can change icons on its own. I think you need an Agent for that, and again, you can't run an agent on a commlink.

You could probably do this with a drone, with the pilot program doing the matrix actions via the Wrapper program. Drones have the ability to run Cyberprograms, and are themselves an icon, so it could run around altering it's own icon to look like all sorts of dangerous things as a distraction. An S-B Microskimmer would work well, but it's $1000 plus the $250 Wrapper cyberprogram for each.

Which really just means you understand the magic rules better than the matrix ones. That's not actually intended as a slight, as the matrix rules tend be quite muddy.

No, I actually understand the Matrix rules far better than the Magic rules. That goes back to post-VR2.0 for me. What it really means is that if you, as a player, pull that kind of crap on me, it means that you're taking a Player vs GM attitude. You're not giving me the benefit of the doubt as the GM that I will challenge you without said challenge being unfair. I've been gaming for over 20 years at this point and I've never TPK'd a group once. But if you start pulling this sort of cheesy defense, I WILL start pulling the same cheesy crap and throwing it right back at you and I'll blindside you from an aspect of the rules you're not aware of.

Or I'll just drop a cow on your head. OBB = Orbital Bovine Bombardment, and was the Shadowrun standard of what has become the TVTropes meme "Rocks fall, everyone dies".

I think it's important that if in essence there is a way to drop chaff and confuse deckers, that the chaff at least be somewhat expensive. (Like 1,000 nuyen drones) I mean, congrats if you managed to break the system, but we've waited 20 years for some Matrix rules that actually work. I'd rather not start my 5th edition SR campaign with the rules broken in this manner.

Also, is it meant for non riggers to get RCC decks and gain access to programs? I thought part of the purpose of all this is to limit most characters to commlinks and thus only common programs.

Again, my current anti-rules-lawyer-justification-for-Rule-Zeroing-this-tactic is "The enemy decker will immediately identify the identical hidden icons as being the same type and thus immediately tag all RFIDs you have on you with the same owner." Which means this trick only works once. The second a decker gets one RFID, he gets them all. And on top of that, any GOD security that may be watching will take special interest in someone walking around with four dozen plus hidden icons on their person (Sleaze is an illegal action BTW, which was argued by Jason Hardy as a way around this tactic by giving the sam in question an Overwatch Score...). It's not RAW, but it's a nasty tactic you can pull on this sort of munchkiny cheese.

For the record, I bolded the most important part of this, only I've personally been waiting 22 years for it.

Stealth tags are Restricted not Forbidden, so having something with a Sleaze program isn't inherently illegal. Or was that a typo for the errata thread?