Due to the new recoil rules and the burst fire nerfing, is there any question that Single Shot-capable weapons are a "better" choice? Like Semi-Auto, you can only Single Shot once per combat round and still have a non-combat simple action, but recoil is not cumulative between rounds/phases. As far as I can tell the only benefit to Automatics is full-auto suppression fire. I suppose this makes shotguns and rifles far more viable than they used to be, but reduces the effectiveness of pistols and all automatics.

Oddly enough, a bolt action can be superior to a semi-auto even if you're doing exactly the same things with them (firing one shot per phase).

Yep, that struck me as odd too.
Guess we'll be seeing even more Super Warhawks in SR5.

Only thing that might be an issue is the increased evasion-pool (namely RE + INT instead of just RE). Maybe burst and autofire might become important, just to keep the target from evading your shots.
(Yeah i'm looking at you MysAd with Combat Sense 6, RE 10 and INT 10 (Increased Attribute Spell) )

yeah, being able to shut down someone's defensive dice pool is enough to make burst and full auto worth something, especially if you don't plan on shooting every single time your action comes up. for example, if you burst something, and then throw a grenade the next round (note: you'll probably actually want to keep your burst to a simple action in this specific example, due to the number of actions involved in taking a grenade from non-wireless and stowed to wireless, thrown, and detonated.

If you fire a Semi-Auto gun in single-shot every round, there's no recoil (recoil is de-facto reset as soon as you don't shoot with a complex action).
So an SS weapon is almost never superior to an SA weapon, except is one fringe scenario: you've accumulated recoil in previous passes and you lead the current pass with a single shot simple action, instead of making it the second simple action of that pass.

The benefit of burst fire and full-auto is that recoil compensation is plenty and these firing modes remove a lot of dice from the opponent's defense pool, which can be quite large, especially if that opponent sacrifices 5 or 10 initiative.

Recoil keeps on accumulating until you spend a full round not shooting.

Only Single Shot gets an exception to this rule.

Or am i missing something?


As stated above: a full phase suffices.

Do you get to apply recoil compensation every action phase or only once per turn?

I've already asked, and I've already had the Word of God (as in, freelancers): what this means is that if you do something else than "shoot for a full action", then you cancel recoil. That is, if you shoot for a simple action and do something else for another simple action, then recoil is reset.

Neither. You apply recoil compensation only after a recoil reset.

No, that isn't what the rule says.

That would be really strange (and not what i have gathered from the rules). You apply your recoil-compensation every time you fire.

Otherwise it would be like: (SMG with total RC 4 as an example)
1. Phase: Long Burst on BF (6 bullets): - 2 recoil-modfier
2. Phase: next Long Burst: -12 recoil-modifier (-8 would be correct imo)

No, you don't. Look at the example p 177.

The rule says that you only get recoil compensation "when you start firing" - which in this case means when you start a series of recoil-generating actions.

Did you even read what i quoted, i used "round" because that what to other poster used.

And werewindlefr the rules say quite explicitly that you have to spend full action phase doing something other then shooting.

On page 175, under the heading "Progressive Recoil", it says, "Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase." Now, as far as I understand the rules, you get one action phase per Initiative Pass. So then, you have to spend one whole pass not shooting to reset your recoil. Thus, you can't shoot with a simple action, reset your recoil with a take aim simple action, then next pass have a clean recoil slate. How are you interpreting the rules differently, Werewindlefr? Or did the freelancer you talk to clarify something I'm not getting here?

This is quite clear in the rules, p.177


1) Recoil compensation only works for the first bullets.
2) Simple actions on the same turn you fire DO NOT reset recoil penalty. A full action phase spent not shooting does.

Then p.175:


Clearly, RC (recoil compensation) DOES NOT apply for every shot.

And there is more from the same page:


Again, "every bullet fired" no matter over how many times you shot the weapon, it just keeps going up and up and up. And "for an entire Action Phase", not a simple action.

Just re-read the p.177-example.

-Wombat has RC3
-he shoots a semi-auto-burst (no recoil)
-then shoots a single shot (-1 recoil or in other words RC 3 minus 4 bullets) and takes cover in the same phase
-next phase he takes an aim-action (resetting the recoild) and shoots another SA-burst for zero total recoil

So:
-RC is applied for every shooting-action
-a non-shooting action resets recoil (why wasn't it mentioned on the 'take cover'-action though?)

The question is really, "why would they do this"? If it was to balance SS weapons, they actually made them superior in nearly every way. Now everyone will be running around with a Warhawk/T-250/Remington 950. If balance was really needed they could have simply removed SS altogether and folded these weapons into SA, logical or not, instead of taking the exact opposite stance and devaluing 90% of the guns in the book.

This is wrong, according to the freelancers who made the rules, sorry. I thought exactly like you, but I have official word that I was wrong (and as a consequence, so are you). Simple actions DO reset recoil.

The discussion that clarified this is somewhere on the forum and a couple weeks old.
This is, according to some people who participated in creating these rules in the first place, a wrong interpretation of this sentence.

It is not, or Wombat wouldn't get a -1 on his second action phase. Also, see the next example.

If recoil compensation only resets when recoil resets: why didn't Wombat get a -4 recoil-modifier for his single shot in the second phase?

Okay, but if you have two simple actions and you shoot on one action, are you saying the other action can be used to reset the recoil... sort of like call it a Steady the Weapon Simple action for convenience sake or just passing on the simple action will reset?

Using aim, reckless casting, etc. count as recoil-resetting action.

That directly contradicts what the rules say, and also makes the entire progressive recoil concept essentially useless unless you're spending Complex Actions to fire Full Auto or Long Bursts. It also makes the SS weapon recoil exemption entirely pointless. I can't imagine they went to the trouble of describing all of this only to have it only apply in 2 specific corner cases. If the Errata comes out and says "ignore all that crap we wrote about how recoil works, this is what we actually meant", then great. That hasn't happened yet.

No, it doesn't.


That's correct, I agree with you. But : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1236986
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1237740

Okay, though this does seem weird since it means that really only using complex actions will really build Recoil.

Or are there specific Simple Actions that will NOT act as recoil resetting according to the testers you spoke with?

In that same example on page 177, it says in the last sentence on the Burst Fire example "The accumulated recoil is starting to stack up, so he may want to think about not attacking in the next Action Phase." Thus leading me to think that you have to not fire for an entire action phase to reset your recoil, not just do a simple action. Or else there would be no point to cumulative recoil. Everyone would just take aim, then shoot, then take aim, then shoot. Every action phase and as long as they don't fire more bullets than they have recoil comp, they'd never take recoil penalties.

There are no "recoil resetting actions". There is only "did I generate more recoil this Action Phase?", with the answer being "yes" or "no". If the answer is "yes", more recoil accumulates. If the answer is "no", you get reset. While the example is clumsily worded, it does agree with the text of the rules.

Check out the example. In the first action phase, he shoots and accumulates recoil. In the second he shoots and accumulates recoil. In the third, he doesn't shoot so his recoil resets. In the fourth, he shoots and gets a fresh set of recoil.

Edit: you're wrong, see posts I've linked before.

The example is confusing because in Wombat's third action phase he only takes on Simple Action (Take Aim).

Wombat is plugging away at some obnoxious gangers who insulted his street name. He starts with 1 free point and has a Strength of 3, giving him 2 points of compensation. He’s using
a Colt Manhunter with 1 point of recoil compensation, which brings his compensation total to 3. On his first Action Phase he fires a Semi-Auto Burst, which is 3 bullets. That takes his compensation down to 0, meaning he has no penalty on this shot. On the next Action Phase he fires only one shot. That moves his recoil penalty down one more point, making it –1. He has to take a single die away from his dice pool before rolling his attack. He then uses his other Simple Action to Take Cover. In the following Action Phase, he uses a Simple Action to Take Aim, which removes the effects of progressive recoil and resets his recoil compensation back to its initial 3 points. (He also has the option of increasing his dice pool by 1 or increasing his applicable limit on the next shot by 1.)
On the fourth Action Phase

This isn't as wierd as it might appear at first glance: It effectively means you only build progressive recoil if you end the phase shooting (i.e. complex action or second simple action).

It always happens if you just keep pressing/pulling the trigger:
-continous use of SA-burst
-continous use of BF-long burst
-continous full-bursts (FA)

As soon as you take your finger (or mental command) off the trigger (e.g. use at least a simple action to do something else) recoil resets.

The examples are wrong at one point or another either way.

That's correct, according to Aaron and the SR5 crew.

I think Werewindlefr and Skynet are trying to say the same thing, but are misunderstanding what each other means by "applying compensation with every shot".

Werewindlefr, you're imagining it as, "This is my third shot. My current recoil is -2. I don't apply compensation again."

Skynet, you're imagining it as, "This is my third shot. My total recoil is 6. My compensation is 4. My total penalty is -2 after I apply compensation."

It's the same thing. I tend to think like Skynet does, keeping track of total recoil and re-applying compensation each round. But there is nothing wrong with only tracking the current state of recoil.

Yes, that's correct.

Alright, so everyone will now spend their two Simple Actions first Taking Aim and then firing? How is that any different at all from SS?

Recoil compensation is cheap and plenty* (so SA-burst and Long Bursts are viable options), and SS doesn't give penalty to defense rolls.

*A 10 strength character has 5 (10/3 rounded up, +1) points of natural compensation. If you add a gyromount, gas-vent, folding stock with shock pad, you can probably reach 15.

And completely wrong according the book they wrote. I'll wait for the Errata to start ignoring the clearly written parts of the book.

You can use SA to make a semi-auto-burst.

For example:
1. Phase: 1st simple action: draw your gun, 2nd action: fire a single shot
2. Phase: Because your target has a high evasion-dice-pool and your accuracy limits you, you decide to fire some more bullets to increase the chance of one actually hitting the target. Complex action: SA-burst for a total of 4 recoil (1 bullet from the last phase + 3 bullets now)

The example is confusing, but according to Aaron, it's our reading of the sentence (in the rule section) that's wrong (see the link I've posted).

It isn't, but it devalues the SA/BF/FA weapon to SS. There is nothing wrong with that scenario. Assuming, of course, that he weapon is actually CAPABLE of not taking a Complex Action for BF/FA...

When you do that, it fires one, and only one, shot. Which is identical to SS Firing Mode.

Per the example on page 177:
Wombat takes continual recoil penalties in all phases EXCEPT the one phase where he only makes a Take Aim action. Each and every round he fires induces recoil. This may not be a problem for rifles and SMGs that can accept a lot of recoil-reducing gear, but it makes Pistols weak.

Compare this to a SS Defiance T-250; The character can Take Aim and fire a SS shot each and every round with zero penalty. I'm not sure what your examples of SA being better are trying to get at, but by the RAW single shot will NEVER have ANY penalty to recoil.

Now, if you take your Ares Alpha and slap a bunch of RC gear on it with your Strength 10 Troll's cyber gyromount, yeah you won't need to worry about recoil much. I suppose there are points that Automatics could win out, but for most runners Single Shot seems like the obvious choice.

So, Aaron and the SR5 crew say the rules as written and the example are both incorrect in saying that you need to take a complete Action Phase break from shooting to reset your recoil? Can you provide a quote? And did they mention an errata? Because the rules and examples are pretty clear in that you need to take a whole Action Phase of non firing to reset your recoil.

Only the example. The rules, are written, are being misread by us according to Aaron.

There's two links in a previous posts of mine on this thread.

They can say what ever they want, but until an errata comes out to change this, that's not how the rules work.
The actual rule printed on the book is explicit and has absolutely zero wiggle room for any other interreption(also do note that rule isn't necessarily same one that the writer of that chapter wrote)

This wording is problematic, because it is inherently ambiguous. Does it mean "an action - other than shooting - for an entire Action Phase"? Or does it mean "an action other than: shooting for an entire Action Phase"? In the first case, it would be saying that you would have to spend an entire action occupied in actions that are not shooting, whereas in the second case it would be saying you reset so long as you do not spend the entire Action Phase shooting.

Additionally, the example with Wombat is not very clear either. He opens with a 3 round burst, but it doesn't say what he does with his other simple action for this first pass, so I suppose we're to assume that it's his second simple action of the pass. His next pass he fires a single shot without having taken any other actions between firing, so his recoil is not reset and increases by 1. (How does he do this without changing firing modes?)

At this point, he spends his second simple action taking cover. Then he spend the first simple action of his third pass taking aim, at which point his recoil resets. But why? Was it because he spent two simple actions in a row (albeit spread out over two passes) in which he was not firing, thus equalling in sum "an entire action phase"? Or was it because he took any action at all, other than firing, inbetween two different firing actions? Or was it because taking aim specially resets your recoil, as some here seem to think is the case?

It's a darn good thing the first character I built for SR5 is a melee fighter! No recoil worries for me - I can happily wait around for errata.

~Umi

Looking at the links Werewindlefr posted, apparently the freelancer that did the final draft of the recoil rules dropped the ball, and messed up the example. Or, conversely, Aaron is wrong about what the final version of the rules should be, and the freelancer changed the rules intentionally.

According to Aaron's linguistic skills, you're wrong. See his explanations on the link I've given.

I did try to tell them that requiring linguistic training was asking a bit too much from players and GM, especially since a good deal of them aren't native English speakers (like me, for instance).

I do think we should insist on a rule clarification in the errata.

I agree. Even if the wording is unambiguous for people with advanced language skills, it's ambiguous for everyone else, including myself.

In a surprise move to try and resolve the recoil issue, the devs are retconning all weapons back to flintlocks, thus requiring you to then spend a complex action reloading after you fire, thus removing any and all recoil buildup.

If they're reintroducing the arquebus, then it's more like 10 turns.

Considering the confusion that has stretched over multiple threads, that seems like it would make sense. Considering that most people in this thread (as well as you in the older threads you linked to) were of the opinion that the rule would appear to be that one must not engage in any shooting during a phase in order to reset accumulated recoil, there is obviously a difference of opinion.

Having read all of Aaron's posts in that thread, I have to say that Werewindlefr is correct, and that Umidori's second phrasing of the sentence in question in his first paragraph is apparently the correct reading. Good thing I'm on Dumpshock, because I never would have known. Patrick Goodman is apparently aware of the issue for the upcoming errata, so hopefully it gets done soon.

About how he changes firing modes. He doesn't. First its a semi-auto-burst (complex action with SA-firing mode) then a single shot (simple action in SA-firing-mode).

About the not shooting part (misread that part at first myself): In the phase he takes aim he doesn't do anything else. He starts shooting again in the following phase. So technically he qualifies for the "entire phase without shooting"-criteria.

When I first read the section I read it to mean as long as you weren't shooting the whole phase (i.e. complex action) then it resets. Makes sense to me but, boy, that phrase definitely needs some clarification or better punctuation (a comma would have made things much clearer).

Also, as to the example... where is MY Colt Manhunter?

**edit for spelling fail