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eidolon
I'm not even a resident firearms nut, but for fuck's sake, how have we come five editions and we're calling magazines "clips." It's not nitpicking. It's not splitting hairs. One term is correct. The other is not.

It's a simple Find & Replace, guys. Just because it has been wrong for so long is not a good reason for it to continue to be wrong.
Lionhearted
Maybe by the year 20xx the vocabulary has diluted to the point that they're one and the same! *smirks*
craftomega
Don't mix jargon with general language; clip and magazine are synonymous in English sorry if that bothers you.
DrZaius
QUOTE (eidolon @ Aug 6 2013, 04:13 PM) *
I'm not even a resident firearms nut, but for fuck's sake, how have we come five editions and we're calling magazines "clips." It's not nitpicking. It's not splitting hairs. One term is correct. The other is not.

It's a simple Find & Replace, guys. Just because it has been wrong for so long is not a good reason for it to continue to be wrong.


"Spare clip: A spare clip comes unloaded but can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon. Each clip is specific to the weapon you buy it for, but they all cost the same. And yes, its technically a detachable box magazine, but the Cityspeak word for it is so popular these days that even the catalogs call them clips."

Emphasis mine. Sorry chummer; they know it's wrong, they don't care- 2075 street lingo trumps your pedanticism.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Aug 6 2013, 12:25 PM) *
"Spare clip: A spare clip comes unloaded but can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon. Each clip is specific to the weapon you buy it for, but they all cost the same. And yes, its technically a detachable box magazine, but the Cityspeak word for it is so popular these days that even the catalogs call them clips."

Emphasis mine. Sorry chummer; they know it's wrong, they don't care- 2075 street lingo trumps your pedanticism.


He beat me to it. I also had a good little chuckle with the last line in the book too. A proper tip of the hat, so to speak.
Flaser
QUOTE (eidolon @ Aug 6 2013, 10:13 PM) *
I'm not even a resident firearms nut, but for fuck's sake, how have we come five editions and we're calling magazines "clips." It's not nitpicking. It's not splitting hairs. One term is correct. The other is not.

It's a simple Find & Replace, guys. Just because it has been wrong for so long is not a good reason for it to continue to be wrong.


The average gamer doesn't give a damn. The devs are on our (gun nuts) side, there is even a snide remark in the book about how it's wrong to call 'em clips; I assume they kept it 'cause to the average gamer "clip" makes sense.... if you wanna blame something, blame mainstream media that has spread the wrong terminology, from games through movies to books.
Wakshaani
As a nod to this, there's a Mount Magazine in Arkansas that was renamed Mount Clips. Chalk it up to Ares Multimedia ... they've got some *great* marketing tricks. Until Horizon came around, only Aztechnology and MCT could rival Ares for advertising.
Mx
It's a very simple case of general use trumping specifig and really anyone other then most obtuse gun nut knows what is ment whit the word clip.

Ofcource it would be nice if the writers remembered that c is detachable box magazine not m witch is internal magazine biggrin.gif
FuelDrop
On a completely unrelated topic: Is there a magazine related to shadowrun published by catalyst or at least given their seal of approval?

Cos let's face it, that would be fantastic. even if it's just a quarterly thing with new guns, new armour, new vehicles, short stories, adept powers, spells, gaming advice... I'd buy it. So would you. come on, admit it. It'd be a great way of publishing all the guns from gun haven 1/2 for 5th edition.
Umidori
So you want to be able to read "FASA Power"?

~Umi
Sendaz
I do not know of any canon/CGL approved magazine or e-zine, but it could be out there.

I do miss the Mags like Ka*Ge and Shadowland.


WorkOver
QUOTE (craftomega @ Aug 6 2013, 04:20 PM) *
Don't mix jargon with general language; clip and magazine are synonymous in English sorry if that bothers you.


No there are not.
RHat
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 6 2013, 05:46 PM) *
No there are not.


In jargon no, but in general modern English they are. The dichotomy is even noted by the core book.
Umidori
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 6 2013, 06:46 PM) *
No they are not.

Sure they are, just like "begging the question" means something evokes or leads into a question.

Usage is king. English is as pure as a cribhouse whore.

~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 6 2013, 07:04 PM) *
Sure they are, just like "begging the question" means something evokes or leads into a question.

Usage is king. English is as pure as a cribhouse whore.

~Umi


Especially since English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary... smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
This is like bitching about a BBQ not being grilling up hot dogs on the 4th of july because a BBQ is a indirect cooking method. Sorry but the English and I assume most other languages evolve, its been clip since before lethal weapon 1.
Neurosis
I initially thought this thread was about like, the kind of magazines you read. And it wasn't, but then in a strange self-fulfilling prophecy, it was.

QUOTE
"Spare clip: A spare clip comes unloaded but can hold the maximum rounds for the weapon. Each clip is specific to the weapon you buy it for, but they all cost the same. And yes, it’s technically a detachable box magazine, but the Cityspeak word for it is so popular these days that even the catalogs call them clips."


I wrote this line, and the initial draft was probably less polite than what made into the final book. Something like "And yes, it's technically a detachable box magazine, but shut the fuck up." was what I originally wrote for the game text, IIRC. Possibly it was "...but nobody gives a fuck".

*checks*

Ah, here it is.

QUOTE (Gear Chapter, 1st Draft)
And yes, it's technically a detachable box magazine, but only an out-of-touch drekhead would actually call it that these days.

Jason Hardy went and politened (neologism, son) it up as is his wont.

Also from the same draft, in the terminology sidebar, and this may have made it into final (can't be arsed to check atm, I ostensibly should be working and have spent way too much time on this silly post)...

QUOTE (Gear Chapter, 1st Draft)
Ammo: Refers to the amount of ammunition a ranged weapon can hold, followed by the method of reloading in parentheses: (b) means break action, means detachable external box magazine, or "clip" in modern street parlance, (d) means drum, (ml) means muzzle-loader, (m) means internal magazine, (cy) means cylinder, and (belt) means belt-fed.


***

In summation, Craftomega, RHat, Shinobi Killfist and Umidori are all 100% correct here. In actual Modern English, clip actually means "a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm". Like, that is from an ACTUAL DICTIONARY. This is a bandaids/bandages thing, evolving language.

Technically speaking, "mags" would be both more technically correct while being believably brief and functional street slang, but it would fly in the face of four editions of Shadowrun slang and functionally constitute a micro-retcon in and of itself. I'm a bigger gun nerd than anybody, and not even I care about proper jargon that much.

Even people who are around and handle firearms all the time, even professionally, refer to "detachable box magazines" as clips not infrequently. Someone who has actually for real shot more actual human beings than I care to think about has said "toss me a fresh clip" or whatever, even if that is not precisely accurate. Not everyone cares about using the precisely correct jargon all that much.
Shortstraw
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 7 2013, 11:46 AM) *
I wrote this line...

If you wrote about the guns and ammo does this mean it is your fault I have no elephant rifle?
Critias
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 6 2013, 08:57 PM) *
If you wrote about the guns and ammo does this mean it is your fault I have no elephant rifle?

Sorry, rifles big enough to fire elephants are just going to have to wait until a splat book, buddy.
Umidori
Pfft. Only unoriginal powergaming munchkins would want a rifle that big.

*much grumbling and gnashing of teeth* wink.gif

~Umi
WorkOver
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 6 2013, 09:04 PM) *
Sure they are, just like "begging the question" means something evokes or leads into a question.

Usage is king. English is as pure as a cribhouse whore.

~Umi


You caught that sarcasm? LOL!! I am glad someone did!!
Umidori
I'm afraid I didn't catch any sarcasm, and even now, knowing to look for some, I can't manage to find any. frown.gif

My post was in complete earnesty, and I assumed yours was as well.

~Umi
Sendaz
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 6 2013, 10:29 PM) *
Sorry, rifles big enough to fire elephants are just going to have to wait until a splat book, buddy.

I did hear something about the New Panther Cannon II firing heavily cybered cougars/panthers/leopards is currently being field tested in the CAS.

Takes a troll to wield it, and its SS only requiring a reload each time (the cats don't want to stay in a magazine very well), but for sheer fun it looks to be the perfect Xmas gift this season.
Umidori
...

Sendaz, you brilliant, beautiful fool! You've gone and inspired me to recreate... The "Chuck-Shot".

And the disturbing thing is, I already know exactly how to, and it's completely RAW legal.

~Umi
Sendaz
QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 7 2013, 08:15 AM) *
...

Sendaz, you brilliant, beautiful fool!
Oh stop.... actually no.. go on. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
You've gone and inspired me to recreate... The "Chuck-Shot".

And the disturbing thing is, I already know exactly how to, and it's completely RAW legal.

~Umi

Well if you need some field testing for it, send over a prototype (or I can just have a team slip over and pick it up themselves after midnight wink.gif )
Umidori
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 7 2013, 05:56 AM) *
Well if you need some field testing for it, send over a prototype (or I can just have a team slip over and pick it up themselves after midnight wink.gif )

Well, I'll admit I like my vital organs where they are, and I don't lose anything by sharing the design documents with you, so even if you did send over a team, they wouldn't face any trouble - really, you'd be wasting their time.

That said, I don't take kindly to threats. You can have the prototype, but so can the rest of the world, because it's already hit the Matrix, buddy! Enjoy the competition. ork.gif

Still, I'll save you the trouble of hunting down the information yourself. After all, we wouldn't want to unduly tax you, would we? rotfl.gif

Figure A1
Figure A2
Figure A3
Figure A4

Figure B1
Figure B2
Figure B3
Figure B4
Figure B5
Figure B6
Figure B7
Figure B8

Figure ??

⌁END OF TRANSMISSION

~Umi
psychophipps
Jumped threads somehow...
Patrick Goodman
Not to mention a shark or two....
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Feb 12 2014, 07:13 AM) *
Not to mention a shark or two....


Those damned Sharks...
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 12 2014, 06:33 AM) *
Those damned Sharks...


You can use them as weapons in Saints Row 4 anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Feb 12 2014, 03:11 PM) *
You can use them as weapons in Saints Row 4 anyway.


Been considering a Black Project to give them the ability to breath out of Water (Blue Goo Maybe?), with a levitate effect. My boys in Ares Magical R&D tell me it is possible.
Love the Image. Especially if using Hammerhead sharks for the project. May even consider adding Redlines for some ranged ability.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 13 2014, 06:16 AM) *
Been considering a Black Project to give them the ability to breath out of Water (Blue Goo Maybe?), with a levitate effect. My boys in Ares Magical R&D tell me it is possible.
Love the Image. Especially if using Hammerhead sharks for the project. May even consider adding Redlines for some ranged ability.

EG
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Feb 12 2014, 03:27 PM) *


That's Funny. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Feb 12 2014, 03:27 PM) *


Though I was thinking more of a ground effect image, rather than an Actual FLYING/Falling image. smile.gif. smile.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 6 2013, 09:46 PM) *
I initially thought this thread was about like, the kind of magazines you read. And it wasn't, but then in a strange self-fulfilling prophecy, it was.



I wrote this line, and the initial draft was probably less polite than what made into the final book. Something like "And yes, it's technically a detachable box magazine, but shut the fuck up." was what I originally wrote for the game text, IIRC. Possibly it was "...but nobody gives a fuck".

*checks*

Ah, here it is.


Jason Hardy went and politened (neologism, son) it up as is his wont.

Also from the same draft, in the terminology sidebar, and this may have made it into final (can't be arsed to check atm, I ostensibly should be working and have spent way too much time on this silly post)...



***

In summation, Craftomega, RHat, Shinobi Killfist and Umidori are all 100% correct here. In actual Modern English, clip actually means "a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm". Like, that is from an ACTUAL DICTIONARY. This is a bandaids/bandages thing, evolving language.

Technically speaking, "mags" would be both more technically correct while being believably brief and functional street slang, but it would fly in the face of four editions of Shadowrun slang and functionally constitute a micro-retcon in and of itself. I'm a bigger gun nerd than anybody, and not even I care about proper jargon that much.

Even people who are around and handle firearms all the time, even professionally, refer to "detachable box magazines" as clips not infrequently. Someone who has actually for real shot more actual human beings than I care to think about has said "toss me a fresh clip" or whatever, even if that is not precisely accurate. Not everyone cares about using the precisely correct jargon all that much.


I think this is completely confusing. What if we are reloading a M1 Garand or SKS and are actually using a clip? Inserting an external magazine is probably a simpler action than operating a stripper clip of some kind. Also, older rifles may be more difficult to tactically reload when fed by stripper clips.

So I think the distinction is important. How can you be a holistic, proud, and socially nurturing firearms user unless you also have a working knowledge of archaic weapon systems and lore?

Also, when I was living in Nevada, NO ONE said clip. Not a single person. Every single person I ever knew who attended tactical shooting competitions and events studiously used the word "magazine".

Tanegar
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Feb 12 2014, 09:57 PM) *
So I think the distinction is important. How can you be a holistic, proud, and socially nurturing firearms user unless you also have a working knowledge of archaic weapon systems and lore?

I am honestly not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not.

QUOTE
Also, when I was living in Nevada, NO ONE said clip. Not a single person. Every single person I ever knew who attended tactical shooting competitions and events studiously used the word "magazine".

Geeks in general, be they gamers, trainspotters, or gun nuts, tend to be more precise in their diction than the general usage. It doesn't change the fact that to the average joe, clip = magazine.
KarmaInferno
Language evolves over time.

That's all.





-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 13 2014, 09:05 AM) *
Language evolves over time.

That's all.





-k


English doesn't Evolve... It Thugs other Languages and takes what it wants. smile.gif
X-Kalibur
Clips is so out of fad, all the cool kids call them mags.
psychophipps
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Feb 13 2014, 11:34 AM) *
Clips is so out of fad, all the cool kids call them mags.


Agreed. I haven't even heard anyone but one completely clueless older woman with about as much interest in guns as she does in having breast cancer call a magazine a "clip" in over a decade. The high capacity magazine debate fairly recently (even the liberal news got it right this time), and again 20 years ago, should have pretty well beat the words "clip" out of the parlance of everyone but the apparent retards they hire to write Shadowrun books.
Critias
Shadowrun has called them clips for longer than many Shadowrun players have been alive. We stuck with that distinction and the basic first edition definitions of each type of firearm's loading mechanism, for tradition alone.

As a means of compromising, we snuck in a line of text to make it clear that we know it's not the "right" term (believe or not, several of us are fairly active at our local gun ranges), but that we're using it anyways out of edition after edition of momentum...and...yeah. This is still the response we get. Awesome. Sometimes there's just no winning.
Bigity
If your character shoots an M1, they actually are clips nyahnyah.gif
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2014, 12:48 PM) *
Shadowrun has called them clips for longer than many Shadowrun players have been alive. We stuck with that distinction and the basic first edition definitions of each type of firearm's loading mechanism, for tradition alone.

As a means of compromising, we snuck in a line of text to make it clear that we know it's not the "right" term (believe or not, several of us are fairly active at our local gun ranges), but that we're using it anyways out of edition after edition of momentum...and...yeah. This is still the response we get. Awesome. Sometimes there's just no winning.


I got a good chuckle out of the line in question. It was pretty clever.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Bigity @ Feb 13 2014, 02:53 PM) *
If your character shoots an M1, they actually are clips nyahnyah.gif


Unless it's an M1 Carbine.
Sendaz
Which is why we need to push Ares to switch over to all energy weapons so we can change it again to Battery or Power pack. nyahnyah.gif
psychophipps
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2014, 02:48 PM) *
Shadowrun has called them clips for longer than many Shadowrun players have been alive. We stuck with that distinction and the basic first edition definitions of each type of firearm's loading mechanism, for tradition alone.

As a means of compromising, we snuck in a line of text to make it clear that we know it's not the "right" term (believe or not, several of us are fairly active at our local gun ranges), but that we're using it anyways out of edition after edition of momentum...and...yeah. This is still the response we get. Awesome. Sometimes there's just no winning.


I see your point. It would completely ruin everything if the gun parlance in the game evolved beyond the 25+ year old action movies it came from. Well said, sir!
Bigity
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Feb 13 2014, 02:57 PM) *
Unless it's an M1 Carbine.


Shush you! biggrin.gif
Critias
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Feb 13 2014, 03:00 PM) *
I see your point. It would completely ruin everything if the gun parlance in the game evolved beyond the 25+ year old action movies it came from. Well said, sir!

I'm certain it's precisely your intent, but you're not making it very easy to have a conversation with you that doesn't swiftly devolve into a startling display of profanity. It'd be pretty cool if you'd just turn your snark-o-meter down to a six or a seven, instead of having it cranked all the way up to ten.
Jack VII
QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 13 2014, 03:32 PM) *
...instead of having it cranked all the way up to ten.


This is dumpshock. These go to 11...

grinbig.gif
Brazilian_Shinobi
Or over 9000... rotfl.gif
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