With the release of Shadowrun Returns and the general moddability of it, I found myself adding (and fixing) guns to that game, going back to as many gun-books as I could find (I'm talking ALL the way back), and just looking at the way that guns in the Shadowrun world have evolved over time. And then I found Gun Heaven 2, which blew my mind.

You see, Gun Heaven 2 went ahead and presented the guns according to which AAA "mega" produced them: Saeder-Krupp, Renraku, or Shiawase. Ares wasn't listed, as the stats for their guns are scattered across a bunch of books, and the 6 others weren't mentioned at all. And because the weapons were laid out in such a manner, I got thinking about things I hadn't ever rally thought about before.

I guess because the Fichetti Security is described as being "the handgun of choice for security companies" or some such, that I always just assumed that everybody (except Ares) used Fichetti equipment. But that wouldn't be the case, would it? I mean, we're talking about GIANT corporations here. The rules are different for them than they are for the smaller guys. They would almost have to, every single one of them, have their own armaments divisions. Here are a couple of reasons why:

1) Security. In the age of wireless and matrix 2 and 3 and bricking, there's always the possibility that purchasing your weapons from a 3rd-party could cause a gaping security hole. What happens if Ares (I doubt they would, but it's possible. And not just Ares, but anybody) leaves a backdoor in their smartlinks? You know, just in case? And then open conflict (or the right information passed to a certain shadowrunning outfit because this job is just THAT important) erupts? BOOM, that mega suffered a serious strategic setback.

2) Branding. In the age of extraterritorial mega-corporations, everything that an employee does or wears or eats reflects on the employer. I highly doubt that a AAA (especially one as public-conscious as Horizon) wants their security personnel seen in public sporting a gun made by a competitor. And let's face it, when a company is that big, they are definitely all in competition with each other, even if their main focuses might be in divergent areas.

So, looking at Gun Heaven 2, as I mentioned, Shiawase, Saeder-Krupp, and Renraku are represented. Ares is obviously represented in all the books. In Corporate Guide I found a listing saying that Cavalier Arms is owned by NeoNet (which is in itself interesting, because Cavalier Arms is presented in the "Mom and Pops" section of Gun Heaven 2). Aztechnology has Armamentos Murreta (of which I can find ONE gun in all the books I've looked at, the AM-884 Mondragon Battle Rifle from the War! sourcebook). And Monobe (not a AAA) owns both Weapons World (the WalMart of guns) and FN Herstal (which in turn, IRL, owns Browning and Winchester). So 6 of the ten are represented.

I myself can definitely see Horizon leaning towards the Morrissey line of things (security for the fashion-conscious, natch), and in Gun Heaven 1? Jianshi is mentioned in connection with Wuxing, but that's a correlation, and doesn't necessarily mean ownership. Nowhere can I find any mention of security armaments for EVO/Yamatetsu or Mitsuhama.

So I guess my question is, have you guys thought about these things? Are there other references that I'm missing?

ps - I really do hope that Catalyst, in 5e, continues to move away from "variants of real-life guns" and more towards the world/setting-specific weapons like those presented in Gun Heaven 2.

Saeder-Krupp and Aztechnology both make launchers. The Aztechnology Striker and the Onotari Interceptor (Designed by S-K). I believe Aztechnology also makes some heavy, tank level weapons.

IRL people are still buying 1911s and AR-15s and they aren't historical re-inactors or history buffs. the m23 and colt 2066 is in there but theres going to be more like that. I don't know about you but i embrace the stuck in the 80's retro-futurism of cyberpunk (ares predator, assault canons just like Robocop). Now i'm playing a game called Iron Kingdoms that's likewise retro-futuristic, basically Jules Verne's idea of Shadowrun. The shadowrun 2050 sourcebook sold okay didn't it? (honestly i don't know, i haven't posted here in years). Mike Pondsmith did something terrible to cyberpunk 2020 when he tried to evolve it.

While I agree with your line of reasoning that most mega corps probably do make their own weapons, it is possible to find a reason why they wouldn't.

1. The Security question. These corporations sell their weapons to shadowrunners. Sure, they could put a backdoor to disable it for shadowrunner's attacking their facilities, but that's why they pay their security for. However, they also pay shadowrunners to do jobs for them, and they need to make sure that the runner's can do their job. So if they build security vulnerabilities in to their own weapons, they'd be hurting their own corporate espionage interests. They also would prefer it if their guns didn't directly tie back to themselves. So the whole point of why they'd try to make sure there aren't any major security holes is to make sure their deniable ops are plenty deniable and can still get the op done.

2. Branding cuts both ways. Ares wants all the top security to own an Ares gun, so might sell them cheap to Horizon to make sure that the big simsense star's bodyguards are seen with an Ares Predator. Horizon wants to make sure their guard looks that part and since most bodyguards are sporting the Predator, so figure they'd get some credit for having him sport one while picking one up on the cheap to do advertising for Ares. Branding is weird like that.

You have to keep in mind. Corps always have multiple agendas that conflict with themselves, even within the same corporation. The left hand rarely knows what the right hand is doing.

On the reverse side, branding can be used against a line... The Evulz Shadowrunner Terrorists are always using Predators and Ares Alphas while the brave Federales always use the latest from Aztechnology.

As far as the built in vulnerability, I'm active duty and we're pretty much banned from using USB thumbdrives on government computers because they found out that a lot of them had built in viruses or Trojans or some such nonsense. That's not the only reason they're banned but it's a big part. God forbid the DOD contracts out some thumbsticks for us. I'm kind of in favor of the idea that mega-corps would almost exclusively use homegrown. Besides the benefits you mentioned there is also the insider trading, buddy-buddy aspect of it. Head of acquisitions at subsidiary B hooks up sales rep at subsidiary C in exchange for a favor down the line/good standing and parent company A is happy because the money all stays in house. They get to up sales reports even though they're just shuffling the money around in their pockets.

In thinking about it, my response to #1 would have to be that it isn't so much whether or not a corp. WOULD do it (build a back-door) as that they COULD do it, and the purchaser would probably never know, at least not until it's too late. Security pros are paid to be paranoid, and the megas have some insane security. Or at least they do in all the books I've read.

As far as the branding point goes, yes you're right that branding is strange. But at the same time, wouldn't it be better for a company's long-term profits if they could (and they can) promote a line of guns in all the trids? Therefore making more money for themselves, because guess what Jonny-down-the-street just saw Mr. Cool in "I Killed Your Grandmother No Wait I Am Your Grandmother" and now he just HAS to have that new Morrissey (or whatever gun Mr. Cool used)? Hell, that's the entire reason the Ruger Super Warhawk is in Shadowrun. It's not because it's the most powerful handgun in the world (which it isn't. The Taurus Raging Bull .454 Casull, IMI Desert Eagle .50AE and Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum are all more powerful). It's because Dirty Harry used the Ruger Redhawk, and we can all quote the line.

edit: I meant to say that those 3 are more powerful than the Ruger Super Redhawk, which is what the Warhawk is based on. Let's not be comparing RL guns to fantasy ones, eh?

Dirty harry used a smith model 29
The ruger super warhawk fire modes make it seem like it would be based on the single action ruger blackhawk.

I agree with some of your points. like how Glock sold to police departments with really low prices so they could be seen as more professional and elite when they had little reputation and smith and wesson had a strong police market share.

Yeah, Ruger Redhawk or Ruger Blackhawk was NOT the Dirty Harry gun.

It makes me all misty eyed and nostalgic about how when the FBI was going to run with 10mm and we all thought that was going to be the cartridge of the future.

We were all going to be real men with gigantic powerful handgun cartridges being used in real life. We were all going to train forearm and wrist strength and do pushups on our knuckles and train for rapid follow up shots with the 10mm. We were going to put "accelerator pedals" on our 10mm Glocks so we could ride them just like on 1911s.

And instead somehow we ended up with .40 S&W.

Symbolic on how our society has become metro?

Or just hates the metric system.

Your post was funny, but it made me sad that the legend has perhaps been forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm

Read on the glories of yesteryear and the neon, glimmering heights of the 80s. Proof that society lost masculinity at the end of the 80s.

when you think about subsequent developments like .45 GAP I think it has a lot to do with manufacturers not wanting to support longer cartridges that need larger magwells. .40 works in many guns designed for 9mm. Can't find a modern gun that shoots the longer 7.62x25mm Tokarev either which would be a good cartridge for a shadowrunner in pistol or PDW. The smith and wesson .40 was a cartridge that worked better for the FBI and manufacturers. Jeff Cooper even distanced himself from 10mm later on as a flawed concept potentially a good carbine cartridge but not offering more than .45acp in a pistol really.

I spent a while trying to get a newly manufactured TT-33 from Norinco. That's how I found out about the Norinco ban in the US.

I have a Romanian TT-33 that I love to death and I'd love nothing more than a modern one in good condition, with rifling in good condition, and updated to modern standards of safety.

thought you could still get new production tokarevs from zastava. old design but a new tokarev. not sure who the importer is now. the cz52 is a really interesting gun too. the look is right for shadowrun too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_52

Dammit, you're right. Why'd I think the Warhawk was Dirty Harry's gun? Oh yeah, because it says it is in the 4A book: "Feeling lucky, punk?" p.317.

As for backdoors, the flipside being that pissed off Runners could reveal the backdoor to the general populace and potentially result in consumer backlash.

There's a lot I'd love to do in regards to the firearms, and I'm glad that someone else liked the way Guns 2 broke things down by maker... there were a baillion complaints about it, since it didn't do the usual "Light pistols here, heavy pistols there," style breakdown, but I vastly prefer it, personally. I want to get more brand love in the mix. Not just for guns, mind you ... I'm an absolute sucker for brand name avalanches. Weird, since I don't wear any, but hey. (Insert hipster joke here.)

As for Cavalier Arms? Novatech had shares, but wasn't a majority owner. That used to be Patrick Goodman, the character, before he was killed off. Lots in of-universe conspiracy theories about that. Regardless, Cavalier Arms has a new CEO and in '74 won the rights to manufacture Lone Star's pistol, the Thunderbolt. (Formerly the Ruger Thunderbolt). I look forward to what they might make in the future.

Right about here is where people can talk about weapon manufacturing companies from Shadowrun and who makes what. Somebody's bound to have a list of "These are things Ares makes, these are things Aztechnology makes" and so on.

I always found the Shiawase weapons in GH1 and 2 to be my favorites of the bunch. Such sleek, futuristic, believable designs. The "Riot Guard" in particular wins out as my favorite weapon in all of Shadowrun in terms of pure looks. (And the very nice stats it has help too.)

On the topic of 10mm weapons, though, I gotta say, I'd never seen or heard of the Bren Ten before, but dang that's a nice looking weapon.

~Umi

I really don't know. What I do know is that in the 4E book Corporate Guide, on p. 122, which is the beginning of the NeoNET section, under "Major Divisions and Subsidiaries", Cavalier Arms Ltd. is listed.

Which sort of implies that NeoNet is at least majority shareholder.

Real men use .45 Long.

Love my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Long Colt.

Bastards the lot of you.

Don't feel too bad, Canray. I can't afford to shoot any guns except my .22 target pistol, and I can't find ammunition (or the time) for that one. *sigh*

EVO runs Yamatetsu Naval Technologies (YNT) so anything with that on it is EVO (YNT softweave, YNT Cuttlefish, etc) and aren't they in pretty close with the Russians? So perhaps EVO is now making the fine AK line of weapons.

I don't think I know a single person that even owns a gun... Melee weapons? Sure I got a couple knives and swords myself...
But guns... Pretty much only big game hunters and criminals have those here...

Not that you'll be very effective at either big game hunting or criminality with a mere .22 target pistol.

~Umi

Cavalier Arms status is somewhat updated in a comment posted on page 127, as having been "snatched away" by Reality, Inc. This is also mentioned on page 199, in the Lone Star section.

Of course, in Shadowrun, corporations are somehow able to steal subsidiaries, while in real life, this is just impossible in all but the most exotic shareholding structures and management carelessness. Subsidiary status requires ownership of a majority of the voting stock. It's an integral part of subsidiary definition that no one else can achieve control without buying shares from the parent company. And you cannot buy what isn't for sale.

Depends upon the Big Game, I guess. Humans fall pretty easily to a .22, if you know what you are doing with it. I also knew a man (an Old-Timer whose only gun was a .22 bolt action rifle) who only ever hunted with a .22. Took Mountain Lion, Deer, and Boar (this was in Texas, on the Edwards Plateau) with it, along with smaller game.

If you're good enough to hit a vital spot with the first shot, then yeah you don't need anything heavier. I wouldn't hunt a bear or a moose with a .22, though. Not enough stopping power.

That said, a bolt-action rifle is innately more powerful than a .22 target pistol, even if both are chambered for identical .22 LR rounds, and cougars, deer, and boars are more "medium" game than big game.

~Umi

Yep, Very True... I know he took a few Mule Deer with it, but there really is a lack of Really Big Game, like what you find North of Texas.

Some of that has to do with teh legal action of Cavalier's being inherited by the current CEO ... it was tied up in courts for years and things got complicated. (See also Harmony Gold and the Robotech franchise)

Otherwise, chunks get sold now and then to generate cash for needed stuff. The new Matrix, for example, cost NeoNET and MCT huge volumes of capital, which they had to generate by selling off assets and doing some stock finagling. Bit of a gamble that they hope pays off more than what they lose in the sale. This is how, for instance, Renraku got control of GridGuide ™.

.460 Rowland when you want that 1911 frame with the punch of a .44 Magnum.

Better yet, a LAR Grizzly in .45 Winchester Magnum.

Huh. Thanks for that, I'd missed it before. So NeoNet no longer owns Cavalier Arms.

NeoNET's on the board, IIRC. They still have shares, just not a majority. I *ant* to say it was something like "There are a thousand shares of Cavalier. Goodman had 800, but when he died, they fell into legal limbo. NeoNET has the majority of teh 200 that are still operational, so they're the boss." Then the courts finally ruled about teh stock, unlocked everything, and the new guy got control.

Something vaguely along those lines. It's complicated.

At any rate, Cavalier is the new maker of the Thunderbolt. I'm not at all sure what else they'll be making.

They did have some really nice pieces in the supplements - the Sheriff, for example, is really nice. I'm a bit curious as to what the Thunderbolt is gonna look like in SR5...

I saw a few things from them in Arsenal the other day and it reminded me that I don't know what all guns that they make.
Anybody know offhand?

SafeGuard (Taser)
Scout (Holdout)
Deputy (Heavy Pistol, Revolver)
Lancer (Shotgun w/ Underbarrel Grenade Launcher)
Sheriff (Heavy Pistol, Revolver, High Powerer)
Dragoon (Light Pistol, Troll Sized)

That's all I can find for now (checked SR4A, Arsenal, GH1, GH2). Kind of amazed that they don't have a rifle printed, actually.

*scribble scribble* Thank you! And noted about the rifle.

SR5, pages 428-429: Cavalier Arms Crockett EBR

It wouldn't work on existing shares. Even if their ownership is unsure, they still exist and still are counted as voting. The only exception I can think of is if the shares ownership happens to go to the company itself. As strange as it may sound, it is not uncommon for large corporations to own shares in themselves for one reason or another, and state law or corporate by-laws usually have provisions that remove these shares' voting rights in this situation.

You may also pull a similar trick with stock options. The shares stock options entitle to don't exist (and thus do not count as voting) as long as the option is not exercised.

You know the people who wrote SR4A and you still believed it?

Ah, right. Still, seems like they'd produce some sort of old-west-made-modern sport or sniper rifle.

Back in the SR3 days I always felt that there should be a hilariously overpowered troll small arms category, where only a troll can use it and the damage code is a bit higher than what anyone else can get for an analogous weapon system.

I'm thinking something like a gigantic .50 cal submachine gun, or some such. In an emergency if a non-troll grabs it and uses it he or she takes Stun damage per round discharged.

I guess to really deal with that you'd need weapon handling rules, such that those weapons were less effective indoors or harder to use in some ways compared to a normal sized weapon.

Personally I'd make them a bit less reliable too since on some level they'd probably be seen as novelty weapons. Eg. IMI's reputation for unreliable DEs.

Now that I think of it, with the emphasis SR places on initiative and number of action, as well as all the guns, there should be stuff on how your webbing or tac gear speeds or slows your actions.

CCW type stuff could slow you down a bit, and you might be able to be a bit faster with minimal retention competition type stuff, but then have a chance of stuff falling off your belt if you take a spill or something like that.

I can see the difference between MOLLE and ALICE being a slight bonus or malus to initiative if you're going to reload or quick draw something.

Also soon to be among the best selling firearms in the shadowrunning community, especially once that full-auto trigger group and belt feed mechanism become available in Duffel Bag of Guns.

I figure its the future version of the M14. Which was a fave of mine to play with in previous versions (usually had to kitbash it with rules).

The Cavalier Arms Crockett EBR would be greatly helped with the ability to hide it by breaking it down. Let's face it, a "True" sniper rifle isn't used by Shadowrunners often, as a DMR or a Hunting Rifle works for them just fine, and the Crockett is a nice compromise.

The important question has been missed:

Does it come with a gen-u-ine 'coonskin cap with every purchase?

If by "Vat-Grown Fur", yes.