I feel slightly less bad about the difficulty of creating a Force 6 focus, but requiring a 24 dice pool is grim.

Now calculate how easy it is to create a Force 9 formula (extended test 81), even burning 6-8 points of Edge along the way. I'd assume that not only are Force 6 foci very rare, the few that are out there all look the same because they're based on the same handful of high Force foci that hot shit researchers managed to bash out with some freak luck.

You do not exactly require a dicepool of 24, that is "merely" an obtainable level in the game world.

Don´t forget about teamwork, getting a magical group or paid helpers and the Leadership skill is worth it.

Build your starting mage with Magic 6, Edge 3, Artificing 4 (+spec), power focus 4. With Leadership 4, two helpers should be able to provide limit+2/pool+4. That should be able to pull of the trick (at least F8).

All they have to do is clarify that every applicable source of the penalty stacks. So I'm casting a power bolt in a BGC 2 I'm at -2 dice, I'm also using a power focus 4 to supplement my spell now I'm at -4 dice.

How do you see Leadership mattering here? I only see the p. 142 Direct use, which is intended as a sort of inspirational pick-me-up before a skill test on their next Action Phase. I don't know that I'd allow it to help an ongoing multiday effort.

But the teamwork rules on p. 49 seem to work fine: plus one limit per assisting team member just using the same skill, no leadership required. The extra dice are just gravy, since the limit is the real killer here.

Incidentally, the leadership skill would be something nice to put on spotter working with a sniper.

Does anyone have suggestions for partially reversing the Counterspelling nerf? I like that you can team up on a mage to overwhelm his Counterspelling + Shielding, but only allowing the pool to refresh once per combat turn seems too harsh. I'm thinking it refreshes on your next action, which lets you go toe to toe with a guy who has the same number of multiple actions per turn, but you can still get curb stomped by three guys with one phase all casting at the beginning of the turn.

Until (if) this gets changed in errata, Watchers are not viable in the field. Fine for leg-work before you leave your hide-out but once you are in the field or on a long mission they are useless. A lot of the missions we tend to do are far and away from home, our one summoner will be using spirits for all his search needs from now on since watchers are nearly impossible to use once away from your lodge.

*Emphasis added by me.

Well, that certainly puts paid to watchers for most cases, doesn't it?

Watchers can be used in the field if you just take 5 minutes to summon one before leaving the lodge. They last for a number of hours and are pretty efficient. Just don't decide you need one in the middle of a run.

Spending 5 minutes before you leave for your mission works well, you’ll get on average a watcher with 6 dice in its pool to do most things and you’ll only have to resist 3DV of drain. Of course if you are away from your Lodge due to the mission requirements for more than a day or so, no watchers for you.

On the other hand, you can spend a complex action and summon an actual spirit. A Force 5 spirit of (anything in the book) has (or can have) the Search power. The spirit doesn’t require a Lodge to summon and will only roll 5 dice to oppose you leading to 1.66 DV of drain. The Force 5 spirit will have 10 (more or less) dice to complete any task that the Watcher could have done, and will be able to provide more options.

Watchers have never been the best choice for most things, but they were cheap, fast to summon and in groups could actually be useful in a pinch. After the abuse that they have seen in 5th edition, I doubt anyone will use them for anything more than flavor because they are simply not worth the effort. Everything a watcher can do a spirit can do faster and better with less drain.

Watcher
Pros:
Long duration
Unlimited services
Doesn’t count against total available spirits

Cons:
Requires lodge
Higher drain than similar force spirit
Lower stats than similar force spirit
Lower skills than similar force spirit

Spirit
Pros:
Lower drain than similar force watcher
No lodge required
Complex action to summon
Higher skills than watcher
Higher attributes than watcher
More powers and capability than watcher

Cons:
Max 1 unbound spirit at a time
Limited services
Lasts until sunrise/set

Overall in my opinion Watchers just don’t measure up any more. The really dumb little twits of SR4 were much more useful than the now poorly implemented Watchers of SR5. Changing one small item would drop them back into the realm of usability. Make the Watcher Ritual not require a Lodge. With everything else that has been done to them, this by itself would bring them back into usability. Other tweaks might make them better, but just removing the Lodge requirement would make them okay to use.

The biggest advantage Watchers have is that they can talk, so they can do the following, which a spirit can't do:

Go patrol the area around the facility entrance and if anyone that's not in this room right now enters, assense them and then come find me. Then tell me how many of them there are, what they're carrying, and if there are any magic users in the bunch.

Actually a Spirit can do that without even coming back... It has a mental link with the summoner and can simply report what it sees. Now it may not be able to come back and manifest and tell the Street Sam what it saw, but as long as it can notify the summoner, it's all good.

Well, yeah, okay, it can go find and tell Bob the Troll instead. Getting a spirit to do that would require a number of remote services, which would require binding.

Being a messanger is the only thing that a Watcher is better at than a spirit. The Spirit is faster to summon and cheaper to summon (both in physical cost and drain).

Isn't a comm-unit supposed to provide 2-way (or more) communication (without drain or needing a lodge)?

I find this very weird, to put it kindly - if a player wants to create a F3 focus, why would they think they could use a F4 formula? The formula tells the mage how to create a F4 focus, not a F3 focus. It's supposed to be a very precise recipe - what with all the flavor text about different traditions and form/force/function and making "that specific focus".

You can hand-wave it a little bit, but it's still really, really counter-intuitive in my book.

In SR5 all Enchanter are Vamps?

I must be missing something, because I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing.

What I read is this, on page 307 of the 5th Edition core rulebook: Crafting a focus is Artificing + Magic [Formula Force] v. formula Force + telesma's Object Resistance, no edge allowed, net hits are the focus's Force. Takes a number of days equal to the Force in the focus formula. Seems like something easily accomplished if you're specced for it and have a week or two of downtime.

ok.

so take a force 6 focus formula and see how often you actually get a force 6 focus as the result.

It's easily accomplished if you have a moderately high formula, if you use an unprocessed telesma, if you have a decent dice pool, and if you only want a Force 1-2. If you want a Force 3-4 you need some luck and a highish end formula. If you want a Force 5-6, well. See preceding.

If you want a processed telesma with a high OR just shoot yourself in the head.

i.e. you need the recipe for a Force 9 to get a Force 6.

Think about that for a second.

To get a 6 layer chocolate cake, you need to follow the recipe that makes 9 cherry pies.

I think maybe, instead of thinking of it as a "Formula for [Force X] Focus", rather it is a "[Force X] Formula for Focus".

Subtle yet distinctive difference. Semantics and all that.

That's not the description given in the rulebook though. The rulebook goes out of it's way to talk about how specific a formula is, how it's a very precise recipe and all that (plus how it's worked in SR4, can't remember previous versions).

Again, it's possible to wrap your mind around it, it's just that you shouldn't have to according to current and previous editions descriptions of formulas.

Is a Force 9 focus formula even obtainable? You'd need 81 hits on an extended Arcana + Magic [Astral] test.

Assuming Magic 6, Arcana 6, Focus Design specialization, and average hits:

Total hits: 35

So you'd need to get a little bit lucky for a Force 6 formula. You might be able to get there by using Edge. Of if you're an UberArcanist with 26 dice. Oooh, or if you've got like 12 mages working on it together; I bet an Arcana professor at Texas A&M&M with all of his grad students assisting him could make one.

Oh. Right. So you need a specialist, likely with assistants helping her, to create a Force 6 focus successfully.
*ponders*
Probably helps to have a Power Focus. Probably *really* helps to have a Force 6 power focus.

... yo dawg, I heard you liked making focuses, so I made a focus that you have to make before you can effectively make a focus.

I assume they screwed this up, and still intend mundanes to be able to design formulas, so I'd use Logic instead of Magic since that's the linked ability in the Skills chapter. So your uber formula researchers have 9-11 Logic dice (assuming Cerebral Booster or a quickened Increase Logic) and 10-12 Arcana dice, plus speciality and Edge.

Yeah, to get seriously powerful formulas you'll need a team of badasses doing a teamwork test. I imagine a magical Manhattan Project trying to create a Force 12 formula.

Why would you need a Force 9 focus? Isn't that just going to unnecessarily raise your difficulty and give dice to the opposing side of the roll? Wouldn't it be better to try to max out your dice for achieving a Force 6 focus, needing 3 fewer hits for yourself and giving the opposition 3 fewer dice to roll?

For that matter, why the assumption that every hit on the opposing side removes 1 from the maximum power of your artifact, when the actual rule is that your net hits are the power of the focus? Assume 9 dice on the opposing side (virgin telesma, force 6 focus). Average dice will give them 3 hits. If you can manipulate your dicepool such that you can gain 9 hits on the roll, would that not give you a reasonable shot at crafting your 6 force focus successfully?

Or is it Astral Limit that is the issue? Assuming you need an Astral limit higher than the fairly easy to achieve 8 at chargen, take a few levels of 'Focused Concentration' and hang an 'Increased Logic' spell on yourself, or quicken said spell, and your mental and astral limits will jump immediately. Alternately, you can take Indomitable at chargen. Three times. +1 limit each time.

Net hits:
My hits minus its hits.

This is equivalent to each one of its hits subtracting from maximum power, because my hits are capped at the [Force] of the formula. If I'm regularly capping out the number of hits I can get (i.e. rolling 14 dice against a limit of 4) then each hit the focus gets on the other side of the roll reduces the maximum power of the focus.

Aah, OK, I understand. Thanks for explaining.

It seems all of this nonsense is the result of the limit being set on the wrong value. Instead it should be something like the (primary) mage's Magic. (if using limits at all...I would entirely throw 'em out myself).

Hmm. I don't think Limit should apply here at all, and the game should just content itself with saying, "net hits in excess of the Force of the Focus formula are lost."

Yeah, or change the amount of time it takes to make the focus or something.

Or maybe in the magic splatbook, have some "quirks" that can be chosen based on how many net hits exceeded the threshold. A magic sword weapon focus that glows in the presence of enemies and so on...

your hits are capped at the force of recipe you're using.

your net hits are used to determine the rating of focus you actually get.

so yes, every hit on the other side of the equation does reduce the force of the focus. that is exactly what is happening. because you are capped at 6 hits on a force 6 focus formula, and you will only be able to get 6 net hits on that if the opposing side of the equation has 0 hits, period.

A much cleaner rule would be:

Choose a Force to work at, must be equal to or greater than the formula Force.

Make an Artificing + Magic [Force] (Formula Force) test.

Succeeding with no net hits takes double time, net hits can be divided into the base (formula force days) time.

Hits (after applying the limit) above your Magic make the drain physical.

Drain is Force + OR.

Drain values based on working Force rather than the formula force.

So we did a bit of playing around with the rules tonight.

Limits in magic are kind of weird.

Other than artificing that is.

I noticed it first when someone summoned a spirit. They were limited by the Force.

It actually puts spirits into the category where the higher the Force of the spirit is, the more services you can get out of them. 2 spirits, Force 4 and force 8. Sure, drain is going to suck on that Force 8 spirit, but you're also likely to have say, 5 services with it, compared to the 2-3 with the Force 4.

It just seems odd to me that the more powerful it is, the more services you're going to get out of it potentially (maybe its just the 3rd Edition player in me where I'm used to the more powerful summonings having fewer services).

Spell limits seem fine to me, though we were just messing around with them and I didn't get to see them in action too much. Reagents seem different. I want to say they're abusable by upping the limit on Force 1 or 2 spells, but then I consider that the effects of alot of spells are probably limited by the force. Though it may be an expensive work around for Direct Combat spells.

If we take an extreme example, summoning a F1 spirit results in no services 33% of the time and only 1 service 66% of the time, no matter how powerful a mage you are.

And now someone will interject with "but reagents!"...

Reagents are the canned answer to every problem with magic that might be caused by the badly implemented limit rules. Sure it doesn't make sense that you'll get more services from a higher Force spirit, but reagents! I feel like the spirit of Billy Mays needs to be hawking these things.

I extremely like the idea and would solve all limit related silly issues.

( Artificing + Magic [MAGIC] vs Force + Object resistance ) [Force]

You might say I am overdoing on the Limit front, but that's SR5 is about.

This would solve
- the silly example I was able to put together couple of pages back.
- resolve situation where you have to use a higher focus formula to get the intended focus.
- the teamwork bonus would still make sense as top notch focus 6+ can be only made by groups or with specialized equipment.

I am guessing they used Magic instead of Logic because they wanted shamans not to suck at it.

While I like the idea of a Manhattan Project to create a high-Force focus formula (I mean, that's the basis of several runs right there), with RAW the way it is, you are way better off using a Force 1 focus formula and like 20 guys doing teamwork tests to bump the limit up when you create the focus.

One thing that might make crafting at least somewhat more viable if you simply take the Limit as the Cap for your net successes, but still base the comparative roll against all your hits regardless of Limit.

i.e. somebody has 9 hits with a Limit of 6 and the Focus has 2 hits. This takes away 2 from his 9 total hits (down to 7) and leaves him with 6 net hits (because his Limit is 6).

This also solves at least some of the problems with high and low end Forces. (Eventhough it still means you can never get more than 1 Service from a Force 1 Spirit)

This of course, breaks down when it hits the rest of the rules.

6 net hits maximum for most weapons (+2 with smartlink)? Means that you might as well not dodge any more, 'cause there's no chance that your reaction is going to reduce nethits below the Limit.

One thing I was thinking when I was half asleep last night, and I don't know if it will work, and it doesn't really fit into the whole SR5 structure, but for spirits, why not make magic your limit, and the force of the spirit a negative dice pool modifier?

So you're a starting mage with 6 Magic and 6 Summoning. You want to summon a spirit.

At Force 1, you'd be rolling 11 dice (12-1) with a limit of 6. 3-4 hits on average.
At Force 3, you'd be rolling 9 dice (12-3) so 3 hits on average.
At Force 6, you'd be rolling 6 dice (12-6) for 2 hits.
At Force 9, you'd be rolling 3 dice for a single hit.

It seems like it sort of works. Of course, I don't think it works for anything but summoning, and sort of screws with the entire system, but its just an insomnia addled thought.

A couple of questions on Mentor Spirits.

Take the cat spirit for example. The Magician bonus is +2 dice for Illusion Spells, preparations and rituals. Is this bonus for casting and drain? Is it just for casting? Can I split the dice?

The other question is the drawback. "Unless you pass X test, you cannot make an attack that incapacitates your target."

How the heck am I supposed to know this? So can I cast a combat spell, and just hope that it doesn't incapacitate them? (like last night I cast clout, which pretty much knocked my target out). Can I not cast combat spells because it might incapacitate them? What exactly does incapacitate mean? Can I cast a direct Combat spell because I'm likely to only get 4 hits on the target, but not a indirect spell because I'm looking at perhaps 6 damage?

Obviously, you do not cast incapacitating magic (Combat spells and some Illusion, Manipulation Spells) unless you pass the required test.
Cat likes to play with its prey, after all.

You can't cast a spell that incapacitates the target without passing the test. So yes, that very much limits the options for combat spells to low force or not at all and so on. The +2 Dice reads just like Totems used to, so that's for Casting not Drain.

I'm also going to interject the "But Reagents" that phlapjack77 was anticipating. Why? Well that's why they are part of the system, the more I play through things in my head the more they are the new Expendable Foci or Fetishes of editions past. These are also the things that have always, flavour wise, made up the stock carried in those magic stores that gets mentioned on other threads. They are the new tool for magic and having them makes you just That much more effective, especially in a pinch. It's also the meeting between Hermatic and Shamanic traditions that we are told will be expanded in the magic book. Don't forget Shaman used to summon as a complex action but the spirit was gone at sunrise/set, foci and fetishes (depending on rules) could help with this. Hermatic required an elemental circle and Force x 1,000nuyen in summoning materials to summon elemental and then could put that elemental on standby. What you see in SR5 is a bonding of those 2 systems.

Example A non maxed starting Mage : magic 6, summoning 4. Summoning a Force 1 spirit, well you're all but guaranteed to hit your limit of 1 and there is indeed a 33% chance that it won't work. That's with nothing but the skill and an act of will. Now you add some tools to the mix, say a Force 2 Summoning focus and a pouch full of Reagents. Now you're on 12 dice and for 80nuyen you can set that limit to 4, which is an average roll. Now you have a 33% chance of only loosing one service instead of nothing happening.

What the system Does encourage is the mid range of Spirits Force (without Reagents). Low force means low number of services. High Force spirits mean its unlikely you'll summon them at all as the Force creeps towards your dice pool and drawing you closer towards an even roll off for physical drain. Mid range Force however, well you stand a moderate chance with a good dice pool of hitting that limit with a good chance of only loosing a 3rd of those hits leaving you with 2-3 services. Obviously those numbers creep upwards as karma gets spent. Reagents are a tool that makes the differance.

The other way to look at it too is that a Low force spirit has real trouble existing away from the MetaPlanes to conduct those services and high force spirits will resist being drawn (note how most Free Spirits used to be High force). Mid force spirits however lack the strength to ignore the draw and are strong enough to act without dissipating.

You really want those dice, because the last tests one is allowed to take carry a high risk of glitches. IF you are going for max. rating despite the changed BC rules AND want to design the focus yourself.

What about magical groups providing a list of shared designs? Gets style into the rules part without providing even more power. Every member has the skull ring, but how strong?



(Read the Kingkiller Chronicle books by Patrick Rothfuss, they have cool artificing inbetween tons of other stories. Great times.)

Just read those - the main character is too Mary Sue-ish by a ton.

Guilty pleasure and all that... besides there being little signs of a happy ending.

Yup only shamans get advantages based on their stat choice hermetics can suck eggs.

I have no problem with a but reagents answer for some things but I'm sorry a weak force spirit should just be easier to get a crap ton of hits without reagents.

Agreed, that is the strength of low force spirits. *sigh*

Perhaps Magic+Summoning[Astral], if indeed there must be a limit?