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Wakshaani
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 04:23 PM) *
Wow, I'm gonna have to go digging in the boxes of old books for that one. Short version, what is it?


Imagine skillwires that had only a single skill implanted in them that couldn't be changed. They'd essentially weld wires to the outside of your bod (ow!), program them for, say, "Assemble Ford Americar 3", and send you on your way. *vastly* cheaper than traditional skillwires, but they fell by the wayside long before 3rd edition came around. Might not be a bad time for a return.
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 14 2013, 02:50 PM) *
Imagine skillwires that had only a single skill implanted in them that couldn't be changed. They'd essentially weld wires to the outside of your bod (ow!), program them for, say, "Assemble Ford Americar 3", and send you on your way. *vastly* cheaper than traditional skillwires, but they fell by the wayside long before 3rd edition came around. Might not be a bad time for a return.


Two questions,

1. Was there an essence cost? I am guessing yes, but that would just be a guess.
2. Is it possible to reprogram the wires... Ford is completely re-tooling the Americar.

As a business model, the 5e pricing is ridiculous. Is there and Dev explanation/rational to these changes?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 03:59 PM) *
As a business model, the 5e pricing is ridiculous. Is there and Dev explanation/rational to these changes?


SR3 Nostalgia? Seems to work for everything else. wobble.gif
Tzeentch
Ok. Here's basically how they would look in SR5 using the SR2 costs.

Skill Hardwires: A Skill Hardware can replicate any Active skill (see SR5, p. 128). Each Skill Hardwire is good for one skill, and can not be altered, upgraded, or modified. Skill specializations are not permitted. They do not require a skilljack (SR5, p. 452) to function.

BODYWARE
Devices Essence Capacity Availability Cost
Skill Hardwire (Rating 1-10)
Rating 1-4 Rating x 0.2 - 6 Rating x 5,000
Rating 5-8 Rating x 0.25 - 12 Rating x 50,000
Rating 9-10 Rating x 0.3 - 12 Rating x 500,000


(Those are the SR2 stats. No, I don't think they are particularly viable at the high-end and probably need to be rejiggered.)
Wakshaani
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 03:59 PM) *
Two questions,

1. Was there an essence cost? I am guessing yes, but that would just be a guess.
2. Is it possible to reprogram the wires... Ford is completely re-tooling the Americar.

As a business model, the 5e pricing is ridiculous. Is there and Dev explanation/rational to these changes?


1) Yes, but it was low. IIRC, 0.1 X rating.
2) Nope. One skill only. Need a new one, you could rip off the old ones and install a new one into the "Essence hole", but the one added only does the one thing, ever. They were dead-end tech, but for what they did, they were great.
BigGreenSquid
A little while back the guy who was GMing our game got sick and wasn't going to be able to play, so I volunteered to run on very short notice. Since I am the only one in our group who played SR3, I went and grabbed a mission from season 1 (Demolition Run), raped it for ideas and ported to SR4A.

One thing about it made it work better SR4 than it ever did in SR3, skillwires. Since it was a small facility, the maintenance workers also doubled as the security guards. Rather than the corp spending a bunch of money on a trained workforce, they get a group of young guys out of the barons with no marketable skills (the only skill they actually had was the Athletics Group at 3). Slap some skill wires and datajack on 'em (which are leased to the new employee and will come out of their pay of course) and put them in ***really nice*** (see below) company housing, and a company job where they can do different things throughout their shift and you have a set of loyal/grateful wage-slaves. Moreover, should they decide to leave your employ, they know nothing more of how you run your operation than when they first came to work. Additionally, you recover your skillwires and datajack as they leave your employ and implant them into any one of the hordes of SINless who would love to have that job.

As they go throughout their shift, they load up the appropriate active soft (chemistry, computer, hardware or Industrial Mechanic) for the task at hand, combined with the applicable knowsoft (Biotech Background, Electronics Background and DocWagon Operational Procedures). From the company perspective, you never have a need to brief your employees on safety procedures or changes in company protocol, update the knowsoft, push it out to your facilities, and your employees have been 100% covered. Since your a corp, you don't have to pay for individual copies of these skillsofts, make them all server side software to cover your entire workforce. When it is time for your employees to take over the security detail, they load up their security & weapon skillsofts and you have a veteran workforce for dirt cheap. Should the facility be attacked, your maintenance workers can very quickly become skilled veteran fighters.

Finally, corporate housing. You take a large general steel building (or the SR equivalent), slap a nice looking faux brick facade on the outside with fake windows, and a few shrubs and a nice drive through portico for dropping off your employees. Immediately inside is a very nice looking lobby with a series of what look like private phone rooms on the sides. Your employee comes home, goes into one of the rooms, sits down in a very comfortable chair and goes full VR to be “taken to his room.” For the next 15 hours or so (give or take time to sleep) your employee has a very wonderful VR experience complete with his own lavish pen-house suite. In the world of meat, your employee is link locked into his VR environment until it is time for his next shift. His body is moved to a small cubical and placed into a harness with his appendages connected to cables (think bowflex), a biomonitor, feeding/drinking tube and an external catheter are hooked up by a drone. At this point the movement inhibitor is disabled so his body can flail around. The resistance on the cables are adjusted by the biomonitor so your employee gets a good workout. The biomonitor also provides a balanced diet (think of the mush in the first Matrix movie, it may taste horrible, but your employee will never know that, he's eating awesome VR steak) and proper hydration. As it is close to your employee's work shift, a hygiene drone cleans him up, puts him in a clean uniform, and deposits him into the private room he started in, ready to go back to work.

Now you have a maintenance/fighting force that is in good health and excellent physical condition, all at a cost lower than a low lifestyle. Moreover, your employee thinks he has things great and can blow the remainder of his check on virtual things that cost you next to nothing.
Backgammon
I don't think I could have painted a better picture of the Wired Workforce.

Except, this scenario is comparatively rosy if you go back to the 1980s mentality. Once upon a time, which most younger players may not ever have heard of, it's was an Employer's market. The employer could afford to treat you like shit, because if you didn't like it, you could quit. You'd never find another job, and there's 10 guys that want your job.

Cyberpunk was born in that model. Nowadays you have Google has a model, which goes out of its way to let employee reach their top-level Maslow's pyramid. That's not the environment cyberpunk came from, and sometimes I think that's one of the reason it's so hard to get the new generation to really understand the idea of the corporate yoke.

In your scenario, the corporations make an effort, easy as it may be, to provide a healthy and emotionally satisfying enviroment. They really don't have to. They could make the employees go back to those little booths, but no VR. Don't like it? Fuck off. Ten guys are waiting for your job.

Anyway, both visions are two side of the same coin IMO. What's better: the gilded cage, or the iron cage? Both are cages.
Wakshaani
Horizon taps into these things, by the by, with a workforce that's almost entirely Skillwire'd up, capped off by the SIngularity system, which allows you to wirelessly access the database and pluck whatever skills are needed at the time. Due to this, people are interchangable cogs, providing intangibles, such as leadership, a winning personality, or a good head for angles, who can be shifted form one department or another as needed, secure in the knowledge that whatever skillset they need to execute the job will be waiting for them. Crunch time fo rthe new product line? Move the art department to the warehouse, download what they need, and you'll get that shipment out on time. Tax season? Everyone gets accounting software and goes to have a look ove rthe books to make sure that no one missed anything. Time for a team-building retreat? EVeryone gets loaded with athletics skills so they can go hiking, ziplining, play water polo, whatever. EVen international borders aren't an issue, since you can slot in whatever Linguasofts you need, letting you move a workforce from La to New Deli to Italy to Suadia Arabia without missing a beat.

Of course, the factories in China and Africa don't get that kind of high-end wire... that's what Skill Hardwires are for. Now, go assemble those new Commlinks!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Aug 14 2013, 04:59 PM) *
I don't think I could have painted a better picture of the Wired Workforce.


Indeed... Well done BigGreenSquid. smile.gif
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Aug 14 2013, 04:59 PM) *
the corporations make an effort, easy as it may be, to provide a healthy and emotionally satisfying enviroment. They really don't have to. They could make the employees go back to those little booths, but no VR. Don't like it? Fuck off. Ten guys are waiting for your job.


I absolutely agree, and I don't think this is how every or even most corps would do it. It is all about ROI. I ask myself as a corp, if I can provide the perception of goodies, at a reduction in cost, or even at a very minimal cost and I get a great deal of secondary benefits, what will I do. In this case, where the maintenance folks are also the security, I thought it important to build in a sense of loyalty to the corp. There is a very good face in our group and I wanted to limit the bribery angle and his ability to flip the employees against the corp. Also as a general rule, disgruntled employees make lousy security guards. These employees rightly perceived that their ***luxury*** lifestyle was tied to the operation and security of the facility, and fought admirably for their corp, using their TacNet to great effect.

== Lifestyles ==
DocWagon Housing 1100¥/month
Comforts: Squatter
Entertainment: Middle
Necessities: Squatter
Neighborhood: Low
Security: Middle
Qualities: Corporate Owned [-3LP]

Doing it this way, costs almost half of what a Low lifestyle runs and there are several benefits.
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Aug 14 2013, 04:59 PM) *
Once upon a time, which most younger players may not ever have heard of, it's was an Employer's market. The employer could afford to treat you like shit, because if you didn't like it, you could quit. You'd never find another job, and there's 10 guys that want your job.

Cyberpunk was born in that model.


I couldn't agree more and there absolutely is a place for the employers market in the spectrum of the wired workforce. One thing that I think most people miss though (and this is just my opinion) is the Corps are not evil for the sake of being evil. For the most part they are amoral, morality is not a column on the spreadsheet. They care for the bottom line. Public image and marketing also play into this equation. They might not give a rats ass about the SINless, but they sure want his ¥¥¥. Also, kinda like the Stuffer Shack, DocWagon has clinics in the sprawl and where the reality of their logo might be "DocWagon Cares for the Little Guy's Nuyen" if they can sell the "DocWagon Cares for the Little Guy" part to the great unwashed masses by grabbing a few of 'em up and letting them think they are high on the hog... It don't get any better than that.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 06:35 PM) *
I absolutely agree, and I don't think this is how every or even most corps would do it. It is all about ROI. I ask myself as a corp, if I can provide the perception of goodies, at a reduction in cost, or even at a very minimal cost and I get a great deal of secondary benefits, what will I do. In this case, where the maintenance folks are also the security, I thought it important to build in a sense of loyalty to the corp. There is a very good face in our group and I wanted to limit the bribery angle and his ability to flip the employees against the corp. Also as a general rule, disgruntled employees make lousy security guards. These employees rightly perceived that their ***luxury*** lifestyle was tied to the operation and security of the facility, and fought admirably for their corp, using their TacNet to great effect.

== Lifestyles ==
DocWagon Housing 1100¥/month
Comforts: Squatter
Entertainment: Middle
Necessities: Squatter
Neighborhood: Low
Security: Middle
Qualities: Corporate Owned [-3LP]

Doing it this way, costs almost half of what a Low lifestyle runs and there are several benefits.


Technically, what you described is a Part-time Full Immersion Lifestyle, which is 30,000 Nuyen/Month per person.

QUOTE (Unwired, Full Immersion Lifestyle)
This lifestyle is for those who wish to live in a virtual environment all their waking lives. These people have literally left the meat behind and exist only as their digital personae. They trust the care of their bodies to medical professionals, who keep them on elective life support. Hydration, oxygenation, nutrition, excretion, muscle toning, and every other aspect of long-term care are handled by drones or trained personnel, all while the client interacts with the rest of the world via VR or by jumping into drones. A character with this lifestyle also enjoys the benefits of the Hospitalized lifestyle, but must still cover extra costs for treatment or surgery.


It will have a significant cost savings, to be sure, since it is only utilized for 15 hours/day (per your description), so I would reduce it to 20,000 Nuyen and then adjust for the Corporate Owned Negative Quality. This results in a Cost per Employee of 9,000 Nuyen. Pretty steep, if you ask me. You could reduce it a bit further by hot-swapping (and reducing to 12 Hours occupancy each. At that point, I would give a base of 15,000 Nuyen, -3 levels for Corporate Owned (8,000 Nuyen) and then increased by 10% for the extra occupant on the hot swap (8,800 Nuyen) and then split between the two Hot Swaps, resulting in 4,400 Nuyen per person/Month, billed to the Employee as part of his package, and recouping the expenditure by the Corp, and providing no real money to the Employee. At that point, all of his "concerns" are handled in VR, and the real world uniform/equipment is all provided by the Mother Corporation for his on-duty time. He gets a per diem for meals while "Awake" and he feels fulfilled.

Not too shabby, really. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 07:51 PM) *
For the most part they are amoral, morality is not a column on the spreadsheet. They care for the bottom line. Public image and marketing also play into this equation.


So lets say you know this guy. He pinches pennies everywhere, always telling the cashier he doesn't have the 0.03 cents extra that it costs him to buy coffee. She just shrugs it off and lets him go. He always fills up his gas tank to $20 and then squeezes out a few extra drops, but not enough to make it $20.01
He always stays at work 4 minutes and 59 seconds after he should clock out and gets in early, clocking in 4 minutes 59 seconds early (that's 49 extra minutes worked a week! At $20 an hour that's $16.61!). Any time he borrows money he's a day late paying it back and never pays interest. Overpays his taxes and then charges the government money to get a rebate check, all because it gets him back that extra $1 in deductions and avoids late fees. He never donates to charity, he never helps old ladies cross the street, all because that would cost him money, money he doesn't want to spend (not that he doesn't have money, he just refuses to spend it).

You'd call him greedy and otherwise a total asshole wouldn't you?

Guess what.

His name is Target. Exon. Mobile. Microsoft. Apple. Toshiba. United Airlines. GlaxoSmithKline. Wells Fargo. JP Morgan Chase.

He is every corporation there ever was.

Corporations are not amoral, they're greed bastards that will do anything for money. And we, their stockholders, make sure of this, because God Damn it, if it takes $1 out of our stock dividend, we raise hell to the board of directors. Same is going to be true in 2070, only probably even more so, as the only people with stock are going to be the rich and powerful, as stock options will be out of reach for the SINless and likely too expensive for the wageslave.
Shinobi Killfist
Not to digress form the cyberpunk future discussion but game mechanic wise I like super expensive skill wires but dirt cheap programs, and hey we are 1/2 way there in 5e. I'd charge a flat fee for programs, it just works up to your skill wire rating or if I felt the need to have it by rating it would be something like 200 nuyen x rating. Programs can be pirated, make the cost reasonable for them so people don't feel the need to pirate them or if they do it does not change the balance of the game. Make the actual ware the balancing factor.
Flaser
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 15 2013, 03:01 AM) *
So lets say you know this guy. He pinches pennies everywhere, always telling the cashier he doesn't have the 0.03 cents extra that it costs him to buy coffee. She just shrugs it off and lets him go. He always fills up his gas tank to $20 and then squeezes out a few extra drops, but not enough to make it $20.01
He always stays at work 4 minutes and 59 seconds after he should clock out and gets in early, clocking in 4 minutes 59 seconds early (that's 49 extra minutes worked a week! At $20 an hour that's $16.61!). Any time he borrows money he's a day late paying it back and never pays interest. Overpays his taxes and then charges the government money to get a rebate check, all because it gets him back that extra $1 in deductions and avoids late fees. He never donates to charity, he never helps old ladies cross the street, all because that would cost him money, money he doesn't want to spend (not that he doesn't have money, he just refuses to spend it).

You'd call him greedy and otherwise a total asshole wouldn't you?

Guess what.

His name is Target. Exon. Mobile. Microsoft. Apple. Toshiba. United Airlines. GlaxoSmithKline. Wells Fargo. JP Morgan Chase.

He is every corporation there ever was.

Corporations are not amoral, they're greed bastards that will do anything for money. And we, their stockholders, make sure of this, because God Damn it, if it takes $1 out of our stock dividend, we raise hell to the board of directors. Same is going to be true in 2070, only probably even more so, as the only people with stock are going to be the rich and powerful, as stock options will be out of reach for the SINless and likely too expensive for the wageslave.


...and we haven't even touched that toxic wasteland that is the ego of your average Ayn Rand worshiping CEO/manager.

The fucked up thing about these people is that they believe that they deserve every penny they squeeze out of the system by natural right and that doing so makes them a "good person".

You can't make any shit up as crazy as objectivists.
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 14 2013, 06:01 PM) *
You'd call him greedy and otherwise a total asshole wouldn't you?


This is exactly where I want the majority of corps in my game. If every corp acts like MCT, when I do hit them with the truly horrific it looses its punch. On the other end of the wired workforce, that they are just beginning to encounter are my wired BTL/Personafix + Data filter workforce that do run 20 hours a day and are willing to murder anyone who "unplugs" them. If everything is dark and evil, the real thing just doesn't sting that bad.
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 14 2013, 06:01 PM) *
You'd call him greedy and otherwise a total asshole wouldn't you?


This is exactly where I want the majority of corps in my game. If every corp acts like MCT, when I do hit them with the truly horrific it looses its punch. On the other end of the wired workforce, that they are just beginning to encounter are my wired BTL/Personafix + Data filter workforce that do run 20 hours a day and are willing to murder anyone who "unplugs" them. If everything is dark and evil, the real thing just doesn't sting that bad.
Draco18s
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 14 2013, 10:48 PM) *
This is exactly where I want the majority of corps in my game.


Oh I didn't say it wasn't appropriate for a good Shadowrun game. I completely agree.

I was just saying that they're not amoral ("greed" is a deadly sin, no?)
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 15 2013, 06:07 AM) *
Oh I didn't say it wasn't appropriate for a good Shadowrun game. I completely agree.

I was just saying that they're not amoral ("greed" is a deadly sin, no?)


If you are going the theological route (which by requisite, any discussion of morality in the end requires theology), yes they are, for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Yet by secular standards, for most people there isn't any obligation to help... anyone. Sure, a cop or medic may under certain circumstances have some obligation, but they are the exception, not the rule.

As for the skillwire economy, as I see it 5e has rendered it untenable. A drone workforce is now a better option and as for any obsolete piece of corporate property, the once useful wired workforce still has organs which have value once re-purposed.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 16 2013, 04:12 PM) *
If you are going the theological route (which by requisite, any discussion of morality in the end requires theology), yes they are, for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Yet by secular standards, for most people there isn't any obligation to help... anyone. Sure, a cop or medic may under certain circumstances have some obligation, but they are the exception, not the rule.

As for the skillwire economy, as I see it 5e has rendered it untenable. A drone workforce is now a better option and as for any obsolete piece of corporate property, the once useful wired workforce still has organs which have value once re-purposed.

But the wired workforce was also a big chunk of your consumer base. If you replace all your workers with drones then no-one has a job, which means that no-one can buy your stuff.
Mainly a problem for the corps who had massive numbers of skillwired workers (like Horizon), but still something to keep in mind.
RHat
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 16 2013, 01:12 AM) *
If you are going the theological route (which by requisite, any discussion of morality in the end requires theology), yes they are, for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Yet by secular standards, for most people there isn't any obligation to help... anyone. Sure, a cop or medic may under certain circumstances have some obligation, but they are the exception, not the rule.


... WOW. Just wow. Let me just say two things and leave it there:

1) You're proceeding from a false premise (that morality requires theology) in a way that can be taken as being ignorant and highly insulting. It's a discussion I won't get into here, because as I recall that's against the rules of these boards, but I'd be more than happy to take it up via PM if you like.

2) By at least some secular standards of morality, there is an obligation to help in that you're morally responsible for the consequences of your choices. By choosing the course of inaction, you're responsible for any harm that stems from the choice not to act (or, some would argue, any harm you could have predicted).
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 16 2013, 01:10 AM) *
... WOW. Just wow. Let me just say two things and leave it there:

1) You're proceeding from a false premise (that morality requires theology) in a way that can be taken as being ignorant and highly insulting. It's a discussion I won't get into here, because as I recall that's against the rules of these boards, but I'd be more than happy to take it up via PM if you like.

2) By at least some secular standards of morality, there is an obligation to help in that you're morally responsible for the consequences of your choices. By choosing the course of inaction, you're responsible for any harm that stems from the choice not to act (or, some would argue, any harm you could have predicted).


What you are talking about is the difference between ethics and morality. The two are generally seen as interchangeable, but are philosophically worlds apart. If you look at any college catalog (apart from a religious institution) you will see many philosophy classes on ethics, but it is doubtful you will find a single one on morality.

Ethics are rules created by men for the governance of human behavior (with the notable exception of divine command theory). Morals are rules handed down by some form of higher power/deific figure for the governance of human behavior. Generally you find discussions about correct and incorrect behavior in ethics, you do not find mention of good and evil. There can be and often is a great deal of overlap between morality and ethics, however the two are not necessarily the same.

A very good example on the difference between ethics and morality would be Bushido. It is developed mostly out of Confucianism, which is also not a religion, but is a philosophy and ethical system. Under Bushido there are some situations that would require one to commit murder (although it is a legal killing), even the murder of women and children. Not to do so would be dishonorable and unethical, yet under almost any moral system (including Shinto and Buddhism which do have some influence upon Bushido) the murder of women and children is immoral.
RHat
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 16 2013, 02:10 AM) *
[...]but I'd be more than happy to take it up via PM if you like.

Flaser
QUOTE (BigGreenSquid @ Aug 16 2013, 01:17 PM) *
What you are talking about is the difference between ethics and morality. The two are generally seen as interchangeable, but are philosophically worlds apart. If you look at any college catalog (apart from a religious institution) you will see many philosophy classes on ethics, but it is doubtful you will find a single one on morality.

Ethics are rules created by men for the governance of human behavior (with the notable exception of divine command theory). Morals are rules handed down by some form of higher power/deific figure for the governance of human behavior. Generally you find discussions about correct and incorrect behavior in ethics, you do not find mention of good and evil. There can be and often is a great deal of overlap between morality and ethics, however the two are not necessarily the same.

A very good example on the difference between ethics and morality would be Bushido. It is developed mostly out of Confucianism, which is also not a religion, but is a philosophy and ethical system. Under Bushido there are some situations that would require one to commit murder (although it is a legal killing), even the murder of women and children. Not to do so would be dishonorable and unethical, yet under almost any moral system (including Shinto and Buddhism which do have some influence upon Bushido) the murder of women and children is immoral.


Your initial statement about morals requiring a "God" or another supernatural entity is still wrong. You distinguish ethics vs. morality by saying that one is man-made, another "natural". Even if morals are natural, the requirement of God is not implicit in this statement, unless you subscribe to a theist world-view where *everything* does. I could quote Dawkins and he'd quote research on primates, but I think we're going *very* off-topic. So the gist of what I'm saying: don't be so sure of stuff taught in school, especially the humanities. By its nature these areas of study are riddled with bias. (Cultural, religious, etc... then there's your range of biases that's part of our physiology, like the observer bias, etc).
Sendaz
I shoot, therefore I am. nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 16 2013, 02:17 PM) *
I shoot, therefore I am. nyahnyah.gif


Vos surculus proinde vos es? Hmmmmmmmmmmm... Intersting. wobble.gif
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 16 2013, 12:15 PM) *
Your initial statement about morals requiring a "God" or another supernatural entity is still wrong. You distinguish ethics vs. morality by saying that one is man-made, another "natural". Even if morals are natural, the requirement of God is not implicit in this statement, unless you subscribe to a theist world-view where *everything* does. I could quote Dawkins and he'd quote research on primates, but I think we're going *very* off-topic. So the gist of what I'm saying: don't be so sure of stuff taught in school, especially the humanities. By its nature these areas of study are riddled with bias. (Cultural, religious, etc... then there's your range of biases that's part of our physiology, like the observer bias, etc).


The one area of the catalog with the most overlap to my pre-law degree was philosophy, so with only picking up two classes that didn't overlap I was able to get a philosophy degree as well. Furthermore, I did not go to a religious institution, very far from it.

I am saying that one is man made (think Confucianism) the other would be of super-natural origin. Ethics should for the most part have some logical consistency, there is not the same requirement of morality.

Finally I did not bring theology into this, but I can google well enough to find the appropriate scripture.
Wakshaani
Just be careful with the footsteps, Squid. I'm always down for a philosophical debate (Woo, I get to use a minor!) buuuuut, the site tends to be unhappy with religion or political questions, so, you know... just saying. (Some of the mods are off at GenCon, otherwise they'd probably have wagged a finger already.)

Darn shame. Wonder if we could ask for a section to be set aside for metaphysics? Of course, then you open some unhappy meals.
BlackJaw
Back on topic:

I imagine the frequency of Wires over Education/Training among corp employees/citizens says something about the corp. I picture the Transhumanist Evo using a lot more chipped workers than say Ares, with it's quasi-American faux-individualist vibe, although I may be interpreting Ares's style a bit wrong there.

How do you think the big 10 make use of Skill Wires? I seem to recall Unwired talked about this a bit.
Tzeentch
SR5 skillwires are x10 the cost of SR4. And you need more support hardware, as a skilljack is now required, which doubles the cost smile.gif

The cost increase should change the ground rules for a skillsoft workforce smile.gif

Edit:
SR4A:
* Rating 3 Activesoft 30,000¥
* Rating 3 Skillwire 6,000¥ (0.6 Essence)

SR5:
* Rating 3 Activesoft 15,000¥
* Rating 3 Skilljack 60,000¥ (0.3 Essence)
* Rating 3 Skillwire 60,000¥ (0.3 Essence)
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 16 2013, 05:27 PM) *
Just be careful with the footsteps, Squid.


Not trying to step on toes, hell, wasn't even the one who brought religion into the conversation, nor have a made any religious argument one way or another. I have also kept this a purely academic conversation, without whining (how do you know I am not an objectivist as I do think that the Virtue of Selfishness is a must read for any SR GM).

When looking at these corporations, rather than making them one dimensional "evil capitalist" which might work in at a table of middle-schoolers, I do try and develop a general business culture/philosophy for them. How a company hires/treats/trains should reflective of its business culture/philosophy.
quentra
Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well. Maybe Horizon provides subsidized Matrix and trid access to its wageslaves, maybe Ares offers free self-defense training and maybe the Japanacorps might have a *gasp* pension system of some sort. It doesn't change the fact that they're wageslaves.

shinryu
QUOTE (quentra @ Aug 17 2013, 07:25 PM) *
Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well. Maybe Horizon provides subsidized Matrix and trid access to its wageslaves, maybe Ares offers free self-defense training and maybe the Japanacorps might have a *gasp* pension system of some sort. It doesn't change the fact that they're wageslaves.


one thing i've never been 100% clear on is who ends up being a "corporate citizen" (and presumably treated like a human being) and who is a wageslave. is it the sort of thing where a few Ares "citizens" are the managers at a subsidary staffed by UCAS citizens (who are therefore not Ares's problem re: healthcare or minimum wage), or where those UCAS peons are granted "work visas" to work on Ares extraterritorial property (and are again not Ares's problem re: benefits as they are foreign nationals subject to the provisions of the work visa agreements with the UCAS )? or is it more like everybody's a citizen, it's just some animals are more equal than others? if you view megas as much more like countries, the second option seems like the more likely choice. if you see them more as businesses, trends towards outsourcing seem to make the first option more likely. it's probably not an either-or, obviously, but i do wonder what the more dominant model is.

athe whole legal status of extraterritorial properties is fascinating to consider. public places like the renraku arcology mall, that sort of thing, and extradition between rival corporations or countries. i've thought a lot about having a campaign based around a team that takes care of eliminating or extracting those taking refuge with rival megacorps or
countries if the corporate court is just taking too long to get it done. or if it's important that the extradition not happen. i could also see hilarious bidding wars between corporations for fugitives. say somebody absconds with an MCT trade secret to take to Evo, fucks up somehow, ends up taking refuge with Aztechnology. azzies don't give a shit about whatever it is, but they start a bidding war between MCT and Evo for who gets the refugee. good shadowrun opportunity.
BigGreenSquid
QUOTE (quentra @ Aug 17 2013, 11:25 AM) *
Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well.


Very true, it is a dystopia, more so for they players as they have fallen through the societal cracks. It is a dystopia for the SINless for sure, for the wageslave maybe, but probably not as much. This is after all Shadowrun not 1984. To me one of the greatest dystopic elements of Shadowrun is the disparity of treatment between the SINners and the SINless. The SINless can see the good life just on the other-side of that pane of glass, yet it is 1000 leagues away.

With the wage slave it is different. They do have food, housing, clothing, healthcare and entertainment... All for the low, low price of selling their soul to the company store. Sure they get a paycheck in corpscript, but at the end of the month they don't have anything to show for it.

One element I really wanted to hit my players with was the "house slave" effect. I want wageslaves who do not want to leave their corp. Would fight for it. They do not see the Shadowrunners as street heroes but as the terrorists the trid paints them as. While on their run the little guy is their enemy as sure as the Red Sam is. Everywhere they look are people eager to turn them in, they will find no help, comfort or shelter amongst the wageslaves.
quentra
The only difference I really see between SINned and SINless is that SINners have the chance to obtain a job, housing, credit, and police assistance. It's cyberpunk - the middle class is dead. You're either rich as all hell, a wageslave, or a non-person. Being a wageslave is significantly better than being SINless, but your quality of life is far lower than the middle-class now. (Unless you consider QoL to be higher since you could just plug yourself into VR all the live long day.)

Welfare is gone, the state serves only as a machine to funnel even more money into corporate pockets. Mind, if you're a corporate citizen, things are a bit better - instead of living in a crime-infested C or B-rated zone, you've got a relatively safe arcology. Of course, you can't quit, leave, or otherwise have freedom of movement - but on the plus side, arcologies tend to have lower amounts of thrill gangers aiming to kill and eat you just to see if the ghouls have a point.
Wakshaani
Not sure about Welfare. I'd lay good odds that it's still around in the UCAS, but not so much in the CAS. The governments still exist after all, even if they're *mostly* toothless. The corps keep 'em around to handle the things that they don't want to bother with, like listening to complaints about potholes. Welfare, for SINners only mind you, is something the corps are happy about since it keeps consumers alive. Food stamps = money for Agricorps, after all.

Now, the in-game situation beyond that will differ from table to table. Some love the RObocop world, where everyone's armed, gangs are omni-present, life is cheap, and violence is nearly comedic. Others like a Shadowrun close to modern day, while others an idealic society in a bubble (corp life) that hides the real world (everyone else) from sight.

You can go lots of different ways with it. Hey, YouTube, what've you got for me?

Ooo, Delta CIty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNmMzROLxI4
quentra
I don't see why you can't have both - corporate citizens do live in shielded bubbles, but the gangs really are omni-present on the streets and daily violence is worse than modern-day Caracas. That said, I can't see welfare being a thing - the idea that taxpayer money funds /something useful/ in a corporate feudalist setting seems unrealistic. The reason gangs are omni-present is because of the lack of a social safety net, in many areas, they are the social safety net, SINless or not. I can see some sort of corporate-sponsored 'charity' (funded with taxpayer subsidies), but not state-supported welfare.

I always try to play up what the lack of regulation does to a society - 70+ years of ethically unrestricted neurobiological research means that the corps have subliminal advertising down pat, and it's everywhere. Acid rain is more common than not, and the reason the sprawl goes from super-high tech in a AAA-zone to hell just by crossing into a C-zone is because there's no environmental regulation to keep pollution at bay at all. And that's in legal neighborhoods - you can barely /find/ an intact building in the Barrens. Dystopia is shitty - even where it looks nice, that's just the advertising blitz to keep you from seeing the blood and chrome staining the streets.
shinryu
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 18 2013, 12:17 AM) *
Not sure about Welfare. I'd lay good odds that it's still around in the UCAS, but not so much in the CAS. The governments still exist after all, even if they're *mostly* toothless. The corps keep 'em around to handle the things that they don't want to bother with, like listening to complaints about potholes. Welfare, for SINners only mind you, is something the corps are happy about since it keeps consumers alive. Food stamps = money for Agricorps, after all.

Now, the in-game situation beyond that will differ from table to table. Some love the RObocop world, where everyone's armed, gangs are omni-present, life is cheap, and violence is nearly comedic. Others like a Shadowrun close to modern day, while others an idealic society in a bubble (corp life) that hides the real world (everyone else) from sight.

You can go lots of different ways with it. Hey, YouTube, what've you got for me?

Ooo, Delta CIty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNmMzROLxI4


the idea of welfare still existing is one of the few reasons to even have a nation state exist, and if it's truly dead in the CAS that might (ironically, given arkansas) explain why nobody's managed to get a mega going there. as you point out, welfare becomes a way for the parasite megacorporation to extract money from the citizens of the nation; since they're effectively nation-states they are presumably exempt from having to pay those taxes themselves. it's also a reason to limit corporate citizenship as much as possible; you want as few people having citizenship as possible because the mechanism of taxation allows you to recoup significant amounts of the wage you pay non-citizens in the form of indirect transfer via taxation -> welfare -> buying your products. it's the circle of corruption, i mean, life. you may nearly recoup the cost of taking care of corporate citizens, but you can't ever really profit off it as such since nobody else is forced to feed into the mechanism.

on the other hand, a corp like azatlan is probably opposed to welfare insofar as azatechnology's policy of being both the de facto government and cartoonishly evil just for fun means that they are already recouping the bulk of their outlay to the citizenry since there are basically no other corporations in the country. what are you going to do, move? on the other hand, they've probably pushed for terms for the extraterritorial licenses for other corporations that involve a generous welfare tax. both discourages competitors from setting up shop and makes at least some of their profit come back to azatechnology. possibly directly, if the welfare system is corrupt enough. i'm willing to bet there are actually a number of azatlaner worker's unions that mysteriously only seem to ever form between the employees of ares businesses.

for what it's worth, i think ronin is probably the best shadowrun movie ever made. which is in itself an interesting point that may spawn a different thread shortly.
Backgammon
QUOTE (shinryu @ Aug 17 2013, 02:54 PM) *
one thing i've never been 100% clear on is who ends up being a "corporate citizen" (and presumably treated like a human being) and who is a wageslave.


I think "wageslave" is a derogatory term used by the SINless. They armor themselves with it, looking at these people that have EVERYTHING - food, a warm home, more entertainment that they can manage, all the clothes they want. Materialism paradise. The SINless don't have it and can't have it. This is an important loss of the American Dream. No matter how hard they work or how much they want it, the SINless will never have a SIN and a comfortable life.

So what can a person do, but find arguments about how the other side isn't that desireable. Sure they have everything, but look, they are slaves. Wageslaves. What a bunch of poor idiots, toilng away for nothing at the end of the day. I don't want that! I'm not a slave! I may not have all they have, but I have my soul, and my dignity. Pass be another rat burger.

Of course, the truth lies in the middle. Both is true. The corp employee has everything he could desire, but only in exchange of his individuality and self-realization. He can never excel, can never be something great - he can only exist. Comfortably.

Which is best? Wageslave, or SINless? Truly, if you think about it, it's not an easy question. Both suck, both have advantages. But of course in Shadowrun, we take the side of the SINless, since it's a game where the heroes are from that side of the street. But if you think beyond that, it's not that simple.
Sendaz
SINnerRun™, where you play accountants and general office staff filing paperwork, chat around the watercooler and just try to make it to 5 o'clock to escape to the arcology housing units and catch the latest Urban Brawl game later over a cold near-beer.

More fun than a hole in the head!*







*Caution: Playing this may cause you to shoot yourself in the head.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Aug 18 2013, 07:08 AM) *
SINnerRun™, where you play accountants and general office staff filing paperwork, chat around the watercooler and just try to make it to 5 o'clock to escape to the arcology housing units and catch the latest Urban Brawl game later over a cold near-beer.

More fun than a hole in the head!*

*Caution: Playing this may cause you to shoot yourself in the head.


Five? You slacker! You put in your 12 hours a day/six days a week shift like the rest of us! Taking off three hours early for a sporting event? The nerve!
(Me? Oh, I'm putting in some unpaid overtime. It's an honor to dedicate myself to the bottom line!)
Fiddler
We just happened to be on the 2:30 am to 5pm shift you are the lazy one going to work at 9 and only working 12 hours
Draco18s
You slacker. A real worker gets to work at 9am and doesn't leave until 9am!

(Note: I've actually done this once and come close a second time).
Fiddler
Next you'll want lunch breaks and not to owe your soul to the company store, some people.
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