oh wait. I just pulled out my rule book. page 77

Hosea 8:7.

What exactly are you arguing? If it was mentioned somewhere other than on p.77, like, on p. 414; or maybe had something akin to p.319 mentioning it, we'd have the reason to say it's in the rules.

I have seen characters with Augmentation Addiction in the past. Nothing new here, move along.

I have both seen and made them, but as long as augmentation is not strictly enforced in the rules the way focus addiction is enforced, there's no comparing the two.

Well, yeah, that is true. Enforcement on our side was simple... The addict was always looking for that new upgrade, regardless of whether or not the item in question was different. System 15.3.6.98718 was an improvement in the Servo actuators for the Cyberarm, so of course the addict would rush right out to get his ware upgraded (old servos actuators pulled and replaced with the new actuators) to the new paradigm, regardless of whether or not the system itself truly changed (that 0.00000121% Increase in efficiency was the thing, after all). Made for some entertaining conversation between the practical Hard-Bitten Street Sam who relied upon solid tried and true tech. and the Augment addicted Street-Sam wannabe newb who was always trying to keep on the absolute cutting bleeding edge of technology, lest he fall behind the curve.

What's not comparable is the what augmentations mean to a sam compared to what focuses mean to the magically active. Augmentations make the sam, focuses are a power boost to an already complete character.

That really depends upon the character, though. I have seen many Mages where the Foci ARE the Mage. Take the foci away and they are non-functional. *shrug*
Not the best character design principle, mind you, but it is there. I have also seen it with Street Sams. Take their ware away and they are no longer viable characters according to their players.

I guess its possible for a mage, but the core concept of where they get their power is not focuses. A street sams core source of power is augmentations. A street sam is expected to get 3+ essence in ware, a mage is not expected to get any focuses even if a optimizer might, Can someone make quirky concept X that turns those ideas on there face, sure but the game is not designed to satisfy every insane build out there.

I am curious as to why you think a Street Sam is expected to have at least 3+ points of 'Ware. No where is that a requirement, or even a need, to be considered a Street Sam. I currently have a Street Sam with NO WARE WHATSOEVER, and he functions just fine. In SR5, he even bangs along at an Init 12+1d6; so barring damage, he will always start with at least 2 passes.

That isn't a street sam, that is a dude with a gun. The thing that separates a street sam from dude with a gun is the ware, it is the defining characteristic of the archetype.

eh, no.

the thing that separates a street sam from a dude with a gun is a code. you can have 'ware and still not be a street samurai, and in fact a number of archetypes do in fact have lots of 'ware, but are not considered street samurai.

Augmentation may not be sufficient to make a street sam, but surely it is necessary.

Why? It's "just giving a few extra dice". Like weapons give a few extra DV points. Etc.

No, that is completely wrong. Being a Street Sam is a Philosophy (which is the defining characteristic of the Archetype), it is not the ware. Sadly, there are a Lot of Street Sam in Shadowrun that really aren't. The vast majority of them are just thugs with Ware who have appropriated a name, trying to be more than they actually, truly, are. *shrug*

Most definitely not.

Molly Millions (the earliest character that I recall being called a street samurai in nuromancer) didn't follow the code of conduct that SR associates with street sams.

Street Samurai are defined by their code. Many are augmented but not all. Most are also mundane, but I suppose you could have an Awakened or Technomancer Samurai.

Razorboys (and girls) are always augmented, but don't always follow a code.

Molly Millions? I dunno. Do we see enough of her personal motivations to call her a Samurai by Shadowrun standards? She's not exactly chatty or prone to share her thoughts in the books.


-k

Which is irrelevant, since Shadowrun is not Neuromancer. *shrug*

As an adept, I would want a powerful weapon focus. To limit my exposure to focus addiction, I would want adept abilities that complement my armed combat to be natural. I would consider qi foci for things that I could use while I've got my weapon focus deactivated. Here's a list of things that stand alone from combat that you could deactivate when combat starts:

Critical Strike (Unarmed/Astral/Another weapon, NOT the same as your weapon focus)
Danger Sense (Note that if you are ambushed, you will need to deactivate this and activate your weapon focus to avoid stacking the foci ratings and increase your addiction risk.)
Enhanced Accuracy (Another weapon)
Enhanced Perception
Improved Ability (Not your weapon focus)
Improved Potential (Mental or Social)
Improved Sense
Killing Hands
Kinesics
Light Body
Missile Parry (Two-handed weapon focus)
Natural Immunity (questionable)
Pain Resistance (questionable)
Rapid Healing
Spell Resistance (questionable)
Traceless Walk
Voice Control
Wall Running

The other adept powers are synergistic with using a weapon focus, such as Astral Perception and Attribute Boost. More of these could be questionable if you're thinking about doing things like wall running, light body jumping, or enhanced perceiving during combat.

One thing to note, there is a limit to the number of foci a character can bond with. This makes low-limit adept powers less attractive as qi foci. These include:

Critical Strike
Enhanced Accuracy
Improved Potential
Improved Sense
Killing Hands
Traceless Walk
Wall Running

The first set minus the second set is my list of cool adept powers to have in a qi focus. Exceptions to this might be a combo of Critical Strike (Unarmed Combat), Improved Potential (Physical) and Killing Hands or a combo of Critical Strike (Astral Combat) and Enhanced Accuracy (Weapon Focus (or would that be Astral Combat as well?)). I would still try to bond with higher rating foci so as to not hit the limit set by Magic rating. On the other hand, the total force is Magic x 5, so a few higher powered ones would mean that there might be only room left for lower powered ones.

Can physical adepts be street samurai? Does using magic in any way preclude being a sammie?


Not trying to catch you out, but I saw your post before you edited it - why'd you change your stance on Molly? You originally had said something like she was just a razorgirl. Did you find something in the books that pointed one way or the other?

Of course they can... It is a Philosophy/Life Style, not reliance upon ware or magical abilities.

Street Samurai do not need to be augmented at all and / or can be augmented in differend ways than extensive Implants (i.e. magic).
In a setting that lacks fantasy elements like magic, they tend to have an affinity for tech of sorts.
They usually strive against the ruling class of a dystopian world and their personal codes of honour make them refuse to sell out to the authority.

That which is called a "Street Samurai" has infact more in common with a ronin, than a samurai of old.

Shem, that works for a specific concept, however, for some Adepts a weapon focus is completely & utterly useless, I know my character would never spend money on it unless the GM forced me to fight spirits one on one constantly.

*done to the Rawhide theme song with all due apologies*

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Samurai!

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
Though the sewers are swollen
Keep them runners rollin'
Samurai!

Rain and wind and weather
Hell bent for synthleather
Wishing my gillette here for some fun
All the things I'm wishin'
Good eats, sleep an a mission
Are waiting at the end of my run


Yeah, needs some work.

And even then, Killing hands is cheaper. *shrug*

Or maybe you need some sleep

Are melee weapons with a bunch of extra dice really that bad compared to guns? I was thinking about one character concept of powerful katana focus, high blades (swords), high agility, increased attribute (agility) or improved physical attribute, improved ability (blades), enhanced accuracy (blades), critical strike (blades). That would be a lot of dice on a weapon with accuracy of 8 after the enhanced accuracy power. Str + 4... Would a troll be worthwhile. Good reach and all.

I guess your enemies would pick you off from a distance.

nothing wrong with making a melee specialist. just so long as you remember that you don't have to be completely and utterly incompetent in every other area to be a specialist.

Actually, considering that many shadowruns take place inside a building of some description melee focus isn't necessarily crippling. What IS crippling about that build is that there are no non-lethal options in the blades group, which is very limiting if you put all your points there.

Clubs is less powerful but more versatile, with high concealability, good damage and solid accuracy available in various weapons. Also, with but a single exception they are all completely legal without a license, with the humble club dealing damage that's marginally comparable to a katana at lower skill levels (the low accuracy hurts it a lot, and it lacks any AP, but on the other hand when you walk into a room it's full of potential clubs. Not many rooms I've ever been in have many options for improvised Katanas. Why smuggle a weapon in if you can just pick something up when you get there for similar results?)

As to Qi foci... the only edge augmentation has over them is availability. Increasing attributes via Qi focus is cheap compared to the bioware equivalent in nuyen, and costs karma (a renewable resource) vs Essence (a finite resource). It also can be upgraded more effectively: raising increased attribute 2 to 3 via a focus costs the same as raising it from 0 to 1, while the augmented equivalent requires you to pull out the old stuff, sell it at a fraction of its purchase price, then buy the new 'ware at full price.
To be fair, there are several limitations on Qi Foci that are not there for augmentations: number 1 is the limit on how many you can have. While technically infinite, the cost of increasing this limit is non-trivial and increases exponentially. Still, an augmented character has to deal with essence, which is most definitely a finite resource. Sure, you can squeeze a lot out of it by throwing cash at it but in the end you can't go past deltaware grade no matter how many millions you have to throw.
Number 2 is focus Addiction. This one kind of sucks, and though there is augmentation addiction it's not been given any rules yet so it's not comparable. If used carefully, this isn't an issue (according to some readings, anyway) and if it's risk addiction or die you can power up a bunch of your foci at once. When you use Qi foci for situational utility powers (EG traceless walk, voice control, wall running, light body, rapid healing) and just switch to whatever one you need at the time then Qi foci are potentially very potent with low risks of addiction.

no, but since a weapon Focus can only be a melee weapon, unless you actually invest many skill points into a melee skill, you're better off using a gun.

on a quick inspection of the system, to be an effective Adept blademaster you need a high strength, high agility, Solid skill in one or more melee skills.

Blades 6/8+Agi 6+Weapon Focus 4+Adept Power 3 puts you at 21 dice to strike your target, you hit, get about 5 successes (assuming we buy hits), we'll assume 5 strength, meaning you are doing 5+3+5 or 13p total damage with your Weapon Focus Katana.

Which is sort of funny, odd even. First off, I really do not see, how one can learn to wield a sword and at the same time, be as clueless about a sophisticated club as the next guy. Sure, there are skill groups, but they are more of an difficult to achieve exeption. Also I wonder... if I wield a bo-ken (which would be a non-lethal option)... would that be a club or a sword (even though a wooden one). While it sort of is a club, I do not see any argument, why a swordsman would have any trouble wielding it.

And thats why I liked the SR3 skill/default system.

You could always just houserule all the melee skills into one. Personally, I think that's probably the best way to go about it.

Or just lift a page from 3rd edition and say if you have clubs but not sword you could wield a sword at 1/2 the club rating plus attribute -1. I would still apply a -1 to att as you are not fully accustomed to using it exactly this way so can not apply all the stat.

Course the flip side of this coin is you will then have folk just focusing on one or two weapons skills to high levels and using that as their default for other weapons.

true, but you can also put some sort of hard cap on how many dice you can get from defaulting like that.... maybe something like 1/2 the linked stat?

Which would be fine by me... Fighting with a sword is closer to fighting with an axe or club, then it is to fighting with a knife.
The real difference by skill would be, armed, unarmed and exotic weapon I guess.
Although one could start to collect flexible weapons, like whips and nunchucks in one skill. Those really are different.

I could also live with "Clubs" relating to heavy clubs alone and adding strength instead of agility.

...whatever, basing two skills about the difference between sharp and blunt trauma, does not make all that much sense, when the way the weapons are used is often very similar, if not the same.

Can qi foci push you beyond the normal limits of a power? For example, if I have Mystic Armor 6 and Magic 6, can a Force 4 qi focus get me to Mystic Armor 8? Clearly, if no such rank exists (e.g. Improved Reflexes 4) it doesn't work. I guess my gut tells me no, since I don't see any exception to that rule mentioned in the rules for qi foci.

the limit is your magic attribute so i'm gonna go with no on that.

Disagree with this Samoth...

The big advantage of attribute boost is it's cheap and you really only need/want 1 rank in it to get maximum effect.

The problem with a qi focus is that it's easily deactivated now... especially when you're not astral capable. If you activate it, as a focus it stands out on the astral and is easily spotted. With magic addiction rules as draconian as they are now... only 'magic' in active foci gets used up real fast.


The biggest drawback though is action economy. It's a simple action to activate the focus, then another simple action to activate the power. Since it is so cheap it's hard to see why you wouldn't try to fit it into your normal distro of innate powers. Simple action activate agility boost, simple action quickdraw & fire pistol with the now boosted agility. That instant availability is key.

Kind of like how you can be a master of Pistols with a 6 rating but have no clue how to operate a Narcoject Pistol.

Which end do the darts go in? *holds up knife*