Full Version: Melee and lots of init passes...bad?
A difference in skill of one point with the slightly less skilled opponent moving as much as 4 times faster, if not more, is not a situation in which the less skilled opponent is simply outclasses. You're out of your mind if you think this.
Well, in that example, there were two rounds of melee before A could go again. Given the relative skill levels, he might not have lost both rounds, but if he took damage and his foe didn't, he'd be able to tell that. Basicly, I say the argument that "if slow player with slightly better skill fights fast player with slightly worse skill, slow player always wins" is a bad argument because the fast player has more options than the slow player.
Combat not going your way and you're faster? Why the hell are you fighting it, then? Make the characters the same skill, but give one a reach weapon and you get the same scenario.
"Hey, maybe that guy with the katana is too dangerous to tackle unarmed." Now THAT should be what goes through a character's head, not "I'm faster than him, so I've got to win!"
Either way, you only have to get lucky once to remove your opponent from the mortal realm.
Combat not going your way and you're faster? Why the hell are you fighting it, then? Make the characters the same skill, but give one a reach weapon and you get the same scenario.
"Hey, maybe that guy with the katana is too dangerous to tackle unarmed." Now THAT should be what goes through a character's head, not "I'm faster than him, so I've got to win!"
Either way, you only have to get lucky once to remove your opponent from the mortal realm.
Opponent A: Martial Arts X, Quickness 1[x1], Reaction 1, Initiative 1D6
Opponent B: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent C: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent D: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent E: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
All are using the Whirling maneuver for whatever reason. Feel free to change Martial Arts to any rating you like. I'm using X=3 for purposes of this post. These opponents are equal in every other way.
In this idiotic scenario where all the opponents are forced into a situation where they must attack and do nothing else, Opponent A effectively has a reaction speed of 4,001+401D6 just because he's fighting four unbelievably quick opponents. The only advantage his opponents have is that they win a tie (and that's something that's less likely to occur with ever increase to their Martial Arts scores). In any other scenario than a melee situation, Opponent A can barely move and is a borderline cripple. Yet, miraculously, he's four times faster than all four of his opponents when they're attacking him.
I don't care what your kungfuphilliac skillz say, that's not going to happen anywhere in anything even close to resembly reality, even using more reasonable stats.
Sure, someone who's a master at an art is likely going to trounce all over a bunch of newbies if they try to jump him at once. That's because he doesn't have to waste all those moves-countermoves each and every attack... he cuts through the chase and bitchslaps them before they get a chance to counter his counterattack. Unfortuntely, that's the only time that's going to happen; when skill levels are obscenely different from one another.
Opponent B: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent C: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent D: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
Opponent E: Martial Arts X, Quickness 100[x10], Reaction 1,000, Initiative 100D6
All are using the Whirling maneuver for whatever reason. Feel free to change Martial Arts to any rating you like. I'm using X=3 for purposes of this post. These opponents are equal in every other way.
In this idiotic scenario where all the opponents are forced into a situation where they must attack and do nothing else, Opponent A effectively has a reaction speed of 4,001+401D6 just because he's fighting four unbelievably quick opponents. The only advantage his opponents have is that they win a tie (and that's something that's less likely to occur with ever increase to their Martial Arts scores). In any other scenario than a melee situation, Opponent A can barely move and is a borderline cripple. Yet, miraculously, he's four times faster than all four of his opponents when they're attacking him.
I don't care what your kungfuphilliac skillz say, that's not going to happen anywhere in anything even close to resembly reality, even using more reasonable stats.
Sure, someone who's a master at an art is likely going to trounce all over a bunch of newbies if they try to jump him at once. That's because he doesn't have to waste all those moves-countermoves each and every attack... he cuts through the chase and bitchslaps them before they get a chance to counter his counterattack. Unfortuntely, that's the only time that's going to happen; when skill levels are obscenely different from one another.
Actually, this whole argument is based on a false premise. If you have two characters being equal in all ways one fighting the other, then the one to loose will most likely be the first one to take a hit. At that point, you're screwed.
While it may not be 100% realistic for it to work the way it does, it is balanced. Unless you start throwing in kooky house rules about starting and ending melee, the fast character is a lot better off because he has options, something his one action a turn opponent lacks.
For your example, ACL, A will always loose. Each time he is attacked, there is a > 50% chance he will loose and have to resist damage. His ability to fight back is hindered by his use of whirling and the fact that he will take heavy penalties for attacking more than one foe a turn.
While it may not be 100% realistic for it to work the way it does, it is balanced. Unless you start throwing in kooky house rules about starting and ending melee, the fast character is a lot better off because he has options, something his one action a turn opponent lacks.
For your example, ACL, A will always loose. Each time he is attacked, there is a > 50% chance he will loose and have to resist damage. His ability to fight back is hindered by his use of whirling and the fact that he will take heavy penalties for attacking more than one foe a turn.
Call me crazy, but a high-initiative melee fighter _is_ effective, just not for brute force melee attacks. A high-initiative combatant can position for an attack, forcing his opporent onto worse ground/footing, and then move in for an attack. There are any number of modifiers which a clever melee fighter can take advantage of thanks to high-init that a low-init fighter cannot (because he needs to use his one action to attack). For example, a clever "fast" fighter, can throw sand/gravel/sewer water into his opponents eyes, adding a visibility modifier (+1 to +8 to opponent's TNs). Superior position grants an easy -1 to the "fast" character's TN, helping mitigate a difference in skill. A clever fighter can damage his opponents without resorting to direct melee attacks, such as throwing nearby detritus at the opponent from range to distract him, or knocking over obstacles to trip the opponent (-2 to melee TNs if the opponent is prone!) A "fast" character can try to feint, pushing his opponent around (aren't there CC rules for that, maybe?)
Fact is, melee combat is not like ranged combat, in that there is no "shooting ducks in a barrel" in melee. Fighting someone is an intense matter, in which the clever and aware can win over the skilled and strong. Devastating attacks in melee are the result of using significant combat pool dice coupled with TN modifiers to unleash a single, powerful attack sequence. Any chump who wants to wail on his opponent for 3-4 initiative passes is missing the art of melee combat and deserves whatever ill effects come to him.
Fact is, melee combat is not like ranged combat, in that there is no "shooting ducks in a barrel" in melee. Fighting someone is an intense matter, in which the clever and aware can win over the skilled and strong. Devastating attacks in melee are the result of using significant combat pool dice coupled with TN modifiers to unleash a single, powerful attack sequence. Any chump who wants to wail on his opponent for 3-4 initiative passes is missing the art of melee combat and deserves whatever ill effects come to him.
They're all using Whirling and, as such, no penalties apply for fighting multiple opponents. Again, the only advantage B, C, D, and E has is that they win a dead-heat draw. And, again, that's less likely to occur with every increase to their relative Martial Arts scores. Here's an example after hiking their skills up to 10.
X=10. TN=4. Dice Roller.
B: 2 3 17 3 3 2 4 5 4 3 = 4 successes
C: 2 1 2 1 1 4 3 1 4 1 = 2 successes
D: 2 4 8 4 5 1 2 4 13 3 = 6 successes
E: 1 4 5 2 1 51 4 5 2 = 5 successes
A-B: 3 11 1 1 4 4 4 4 1 5 = 6 successes [2 net]
A-C: 3 1 14 1 4 3 16 2 5 3 = 4 successes [2 net]
A-D: 3 2 5 5 3 3 5 9 5 4 = 6 successes [tie]
A-E: 4 2 7 5 5 4 9 1 2 4 = 7 successes [2 net]
(Yeesh, and I was expecting at least a couple sets to prove my point.) With that one set of dice, A succeeded in landing a telling blow against everyone except D, of which he tied and only had to resist a Moderate Stun blow. B, C, and E and had to resist a Serious Stun blow, which is significantly less likely to happen (especially if they're all average in every other way), thus meaning they're effectively out of the game on the remaining attacks unless D succeeds in landing a harsh blow before they take another one..
Not bad for a cripple.
X=10. TN=4. Dice Roller.
B: 2 3 17 3 3 2 4 5 4 3 = 4 successes
C: 2 1 2 1 1 4 3 1 4 1 = 2 successes
D: 2 4 8 4 5 1 2 4 13 3 = 6 successes
E: 1 4 5 2 1 51 4 5 2 = 5 successes
A-B: 3 11 1 1 4 4 4 4 1 5 = 6 successes [2 net]
A-C: 3 1 14 1 4 3 16 2 5 3 = 4 successes [2 net]
A-D: 3 2 5 5 3 3 5 9 5 4 = 6 successes [tie]
A-E: 4 2 7 5 5 4 9 1 2 4 = 7 successes [2 net]
(Yeesh, and I was expecting at least a couple sets to prove my point.) With that one set of dice, A succeeded in landing a telling blow against everyone except D, of which he tied and only had to resist a Moderate Stun blow. B, C, and E and had to resist a Serious Stun blow, which is significantly less likely to happen (especially if they're all average in every other way), thus meaning they're effectively out of the game on the remaining attacks unless D succeeds in landing a harsh blow before they take another one..
Not bad for a cripple.
Now try a set Without the optional whirling rules. Try not to set up the example specifically to benefit the outnumbered man, as it would actually work using the BBB. You set an "example" that consists o something that would never, ever happen in a real game. Hell, at least dont have the attackers whirling for no good reason...
Or are you attempting to prove that in a wholly unrealistic scenario you can get numbers to support you? If you're trying to ptove you can fabricate false numbers to support your side then yeah, you won!
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Note, also A will get his ass beat down because you are forgetting combat pool, which is a very important part of melee. If the four guys even with your heinously biased example dump their combat pool in the first attack he's toast. He doesnt have enough to cover them all, not even close. Knockout time. or he has enough wound modifiers to send him out for the count.
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Or are you attempting to prove that in a wholly unrealistic scenario you can get numbers to support you? If you're trying to ptove you can fabricate false numbers to support your side then yeah, you won!
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Note, also A will get his ass beat down because you are forgetting combat pool, which is a very important part of melee. If the four guys even with your heinously biased example dump their combat pool in the first attack he's toast. He doesnt have enough to cover them all, not even close. Knockout time. or he has enough wound modifiers to send him out for the count.
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Those rolls were worse than average statistically for the attackers and better than average for the defender. You can expect five successes on every single one of those tests, which means M stun resisted four times by A.
~J
~J
Actually with two players who are equal in skill level, statistically, the attacker will always win, as the defender needs 1 more success than the attacker rolling the same number of dice as the attacker.
Don't forget about Interception - it allows Free attacks against anyone who passes within 1 meter of you who is trying to get by you. You can have no actions left and still get a free attack.
Lots of things in SR don't make sense or defy physics/reality.
A troll can throw objects that break the sound barrier.
A Combat turn lasts three seconds.
Troll with 14 Strength x 30 (max range for Aerodynamic Grenades). Initiative of 20+ means three actions during initiative pass. Troll Throws grenade. It takes one second for grenade to arrive at destination.
In one second the grenade travels 420 m
The speed of sound is a mere 320.29m/s at sea level.
dink-dink-dink of grenade landing is accompanied by sonic boom of said grenade breaking sound barrier, which makes the actual explosion sound like a whimper.
***
An elf with quickness 8, athletics 6 rolls athletics to increase running speed.
Elf runs 33m/combat turn. Works out to 39.6 KPH.
Add spirit force 6 using power of movement (Quickness multiplied by force of spirit.), and Guard on elf.
That same elf now runs 237.6 KPH. Faster than most modern vehicles today.
Don't forget about Interception - it allows Free attacks against anyone who passes within 1 meter of you who is trying to get by you. You can have no actions left and still get a free attack.
Lots of things in SR don't make sense or defy physics/reality.
A troll can throw objects that break the sound barrier.
A Combat turn lasts three seconds.
Troll with 14 Strength x 30 (max range for Aerodynamic Grenades). Initiative of 20+ means three actions during initiative pass. Troll Throws grenade. It takes one second for grenade to arrive at destination.
In one second the grenade travels 420 m
The speed of sound is a mere 320.29m/s at sea level.
dink-dink-dink of grenade landing is accompanied by sonic boom of said grenade breaking sound barrier, which makes the actual explosion sound like a whimper.
***
An elf with quickness 8, athletics 6 rolls athletics to increase running speed.
Elf runs 33m/combat turn. Works out to 39.6 KPH.
Add spirit force 6 using power of movement (Quickness multiplied by force of spirit.), and Guard on elf.
That same elf now runs 237.6 KPH. Faster than most modern vehicles today.
ACL, there's no way to eliminate the penalties for attacking multiple opponents completely (you can reduce it to +1 per opponent only). So A would be at +5 to hit his foes on his turn... not a good prospect for actually dealing damage to them.
TinkerGnome, he had his attackers whirling for no good reason just to balance out the tagret numbers. because.. of course that happens. 
No... on A's turn to attack, he takes a penalty for attacking multiple foes (+2/target or +1/target if he has multistrike which also reduces his attack power) if he's going to do that. The whirling penalty doesn't apply to counter attacking, anyway.
If he's not attacking multiple foes a turn, even with the TNs being even, the fact that he defends 4 times a turn and only attacks 1 is a death sentance because of the "attack wins ties" things.
If he's not attacking multiple foes a turn, even with the TNs being even, the fact that he defends 4 times a turn and only attacks 1 is a death sentance because of the "attack wins ties" things.
Correct, and lets not forget they get combat pool. He;s toast.
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also, each of his opponents by the stats he gave them have a combat pool of at least 334... sooo toast. just dead.
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also, each of his opponents by the stats he gave them have a combat pool of at least 334... sooo toast. just dead.
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Tinker, there's only a flat +1 modifier, period. It's not +1 per combatant. Whirling ignores all Friends in Melee modifiers as far as I'm aware, but replaces it with a flat +1 TN penalty in its place. With all five of them Whirling, it all balances out to a TN of 5 instead of 4. Feel free to change the scenario to A vs. B if it makes you feel better, the stupidity of a cripple become super-fast mojo man still shines through.
As for relying on averages to prove a point in these types of scenarios, all I have to say to that is: Oy. Averages only work if we're talking about millions upon millions of rolls. For small doses, they don't mean much of anything as that single set of rolls above amply proved. A tie resulted once on a single set. That's not likely to change with multiple sets, though after a few thousand sets, I'm sure if you average them all together it'll come out that way.
As for relying on averages to prove a point in these types of scenarios, all I have to say to that is: Oy. Averages only work if we're talking about millions upon millions of rolls. For small doses, they don't mean much of anything as that single set of rolls above amply proved. A tie resulted once on a single set. That's not likely to change with multiple sets, though after a few thousand sets, I'm sure if you average them all together it'll come out that way.
| QUOTE |
| TinkerGnome, he had his attackers whirling for no good reason just to balance out the tagret numbers. because.. of course that happens. |
Yes, because a Reaction of 1,000 and Initiative of 100d6 is also a common occurance. But whatever, it's a pointless discussion. I dunno why I bother with it each time it comes up. Nothing can beat the power of Kung Fu.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime @ Apr 30 2004, 04:13 PM) |
| Tinker, there's only a flat +1 modifier, period. It's not +1 per combatant. Whirling ignores all Friends in Melee modifiers as far as I'm aware, but replaces it with a flat +1 TN penalty in its place. With all five of them Whirling, it all balances out to a TN of 5 instead of 4. |
Reread the melee combat chart. The attacking multiple targets penalty is completely seperate from the friends in melee modifiers. Though, actually, with his opponets whirling, the defender has the advantage since he has a TN 4 to hit them and they are attacking at TN 5. When it gets to his turn he's attacking at TN 9 if he wants to attack all four (and they're at TN 4), but if he's smart he just attacks one a turn for the standard TN 4/5 thing.
He's not attacking multiple opponents (that's what Multi-Strike is for). He's going one-on-one with each attack.
Oh, I get it. I misread your notation. Anyway, the TN 4 vs TN 5 thing still comes into play. If the foes are whirling A is likely to win.
And now lets add in combat pool.
A is toast on the second attacker.
A is toast on the second attacker.
Fine. They both have an Intelligence and Willpower of 1,000, too. A's Combat Pool is 1,000 while B's Combat Pool is 1,005. It's going to take a pretty long time at a Skill level of 3 or even 10 to whittle that down.
Alright, that settles it then. Next character I'm making is an athletic elf mage with a spirit that helps him run 237.6 Kph. "Hey Sprinty, you want a ride home?" "Nah, that's okay. I'm better off on foot."
Also by the rules, if my elf can go that fast (198 m/Combat turn, or 66 meters/sec), he can outrun Heavy Pistol range in just over three-quarters of a second. Since it takes longer than that for most people to draw and fire, he can (with a delayed action) be out of range by the time you pull the trigger.
Then he can come back in on his next action to punch you in the nose.
--K
Also by the rules, if my elf can go that fast (198 m/Combat turn, or 66 meters/sec), he can outrun Heavy Pistol range in just over three-quarters of a second. Since it takes longer than that for most people to draw and fire, he can (with a delayed action) be out of range by the time you pull the trigger.
Then he can come back in on his next action to punch you in the nose.
--K
| QUOTE |
| Fine. They both have an Intelligence and Willpower of 1,000, too. A's Combat Pool is 1,000 while B's Combat Pool is 1,005. It's going to take a pretty long time at a Skill level of 3 or even 10 to whittle that down. |
Why be sarcastic about stats that you yourself set for the purposes of an example? you are 100% responsible for them.
I'm not being sarcastic about them. You're the one clutching at anything and everything that detracts from the main point of the example, using it as an excuse for why it's all okay. Try reading your own link sometime. I'm just trying to throw out everything beyond the main point so that it can be focused on instead of all the other crap.
Sick thought, phys ad, 6 unarmed skill, 6 Unarmed skill enhancement 6 levels of counterstrike.
18 dice for being attacked melee and no combat pool used ever.
18 dice for being attacked melee and no combat pool used ever.
You think using combat pool is grasping? as in it's uncommon or seldom used? Please explain... Combat pool is a serious part of the offensive equasion in melee combat since it's an opposed roll. Combat pool is also determined largely (2/3) by reaction, another point thats valid in this conversation. A significant percentage of the time combat pool in melee can be the determining factor.
Ok, for the purposes of this argument, I'm going to restate the problem in a different context, to more illustrate what I see as the real point.
Two Melee fighters, we'll call them Physads just so they have a very viable excuse for being in melee, have equal skill, equal combat pool, and begin the first initiative roll for this combat in Melee Combat.
PA 1 rolls and gets an initiative of 38
PA 2 rolls and gets an 8. Don't ask questions, I've seen crappier luck.
Now, over the course of this combat, both players make 5 total melee attack rolls. On a completely random analysis, PA 1 only has a moderately slight advantage over PA 2, and that's only the case where there are ties. Despite being almost 5 times as fast, PA 1's only advantage is the same advantage he/she would get if their initiative score was 9, which is that ties go to the attacker.
Factor in the chance that first melee, PA 2 does damage to PA 1 and all bets are off, it's an even or even more skewed playing field, slanted against PA 1.
Two Melee fighters, we'll call them Physads just so they have a very viable excuse for being in melee, have equal skill, equal combat pool, and begin the first initiative roll for this combat in Melee Combat.
PA 1 rolls and gets an initiative of 38
PA 2 rolls and gets an 8. Don't ask questions, I've seen crappier luck.
Now, over the course of this combat, both players make 5 total melee attack rolls. On a completely random analysis, PA 1 only has a moderately slight advantage over PA 2, and that's only the case where there are ties. Despite being almost 5 times as fast, PA 1's only advantage is the same advantage he/she would get if their initiative score was 9, which is that ties go to the attacker.
Factor in the chance that first melee, PA 2 does damage to PA 1 and all bets are off, it's an even or even more skewed playing field, slanted against PA 1.
We are all aware that you can disengage melee combat on your turn with no penalties or checks or other silliness. You can simply disengage and shoot if your character is not up to a melee brawl. Also there are a couple of maneuvers that favor the first attacker such as herding and zoning. There are also maneuvers that will allow you to expend less combat pool due to less penalties close combat, full offence\defence, or whirling. There is also the element of suprise which will go to the first attacker only and cut down on the defenders available combat pool. All else aside in an even fight initiative alone will not give you any bonus.Then again neither will your charisma score no mater how high. You do not need to make up cheesy rules to succeed, simply fight smarter.
Try looking at it from the other angle, as Lime hinted at; instead of adding a cheesy bonus to high-intiative characters, the idea is to remove the current cheesy bonus to the melee defender: that they never get less effective, no matter how much faster they're forced to react, and they effectively gain extra actions because other people move faster.
Shift the point at which the defender does damage. Make one net success for the defender be nothing either way, two successes be base damage vs. the attacker, three successes be base plus one stage, etc.
Defender still too powerful? Shift it again.
~J
Defender still too powerful? Shift it again.
~J
It's easier to only allow a single Counterstrike per normal Phase you have available to act. All other times, they're stuck defending themselves, holding off damage instead of dishing it out.
I can see the development of a martial arts maneuver or adept power that allows more counterstrike actions, but it shouldn't be there by default.
I can see the development of a martial arts maneuver or adept power that allows more counterstrike actions, but it shouldn't be there by default.
I didn't mean to say Combat pool is rarely used, I'm saying that phys ad would be able to save their combat pool for bullet-dodging or pounding the attackers face in when it became their turn.
I've run the numbers on multiple threads before, and the net advantage goes to the faster character, at roughly a 60/40 split, given equal skill.
Look, you guys are thinking about "counterattcking" the wrong way. If you come charging in at high speed, and miss, what's going to happen to you? If you just miss, you're going to keep going, and likely trip over the guy; congratulations, you just gave yourself roadrash/punched a brick wall full-force/ran into his fist.
I don't have to move in order to hurt the other guy-- he can do that to himself.
Look, you guys are thinking about "counterattcking" the wrong way. If you come charging in at high speed, and miss, what's going to happen to you? If you just miss, you're going to keep going, and likely trip over the guy; congratulations, you just gave yourself roadrash/punched a brick wall full-force/ran into his fist.
I don't have to move in order to hurt the other guy-- he can do that to himself.
So now you're trying to say its a psychic power that causes the defender to simple step out of the way (a reaction), thus causing the attacker to trip and hurt themselves without the defender having to do anything. Doing, remarkably, the exact amount of damage their weapon does. Oy.
The simple fact is that melee combat, as the rules currently stand, give opponents the exact same Reaction boosts you have, even though you may very well be operating at superhuman levels (ie, anything about +1D6). I don't care how good you are, being attacked by four superaugmented opponents is not going to increase your reaction time... and if you're counterattacking, you are reacting.
The simple fact is that melee combat, as the rules currently stand, give opponents the exact same Reaction boosts you have, even though you may very well be operating at superhuman levels (ie, anything about +1D6). I don't care how good you are, being attacked by four superaugmented opponents is not going to increase your reaction time... and if you're counterattacking, you are reacting.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| So now you're trying to say its a psychic power that causes the attacker to trip and hurt themselves without the defender having to do anything. Oy. |
I keep on telling you, Straw Man is supposed to be SUBTLE. Otherwise it doesn't work!
If you're competent, the act of stopping an attack can harm your opponing. Just blocking can hurt someone quite badly. I never even have to leave my defensive zone to do it.
| QUOTE (I Eat Time @ Apr 30 2004, 04:00 PM) |
| Ok, for the purposes of this argument, I'm going to restate the problem in a different context, to more illustrate what I see as the real point. Two Melee fighters, we'll call them Physads just so they have a very viable excuse for being in melee, have equal skill, equal combat pool, and begin the first initiative roll for this combat in Melee Combat. PA 1 rolls and gets an initiative of 38 PA 2 rolls and gets an 8. Don't ask questions, I've seen crappier luck. Now, over the course of this combat, both players make 5 total melee attack rolls. On a completely random analysis, PA 1 only has a moderately slight advantage over PA 2, and that's only the case where there are ties. Despite being almost 5 times as fast, PA 1's only advantage is the same advantage he/she would get if their initiative score was 9, which is that ties go to the attacker. Factor in the chance that first melee, PA 2 does damage to PA 1 and all bets are off, it's an even or even more skewed playing field, slanted against PA 1. |
I'd have to say, though, that the simple benefit of winning ties will help PA 1. He can make 4 attacks and will only have to defend once. That means that 4 out of the 5 opposed rolls in this turn, he'll have a better chance of hurting than being hurt. And, he gets to go first, due to the high initiative. If he can deal damage in that phase then he has a distinct advantage over the other guy.
Edit: Yeah, what Cain said
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| If you're competent, the act of stopping an attack can harm your opponing. Just blocking can hurt someone quite badly. I never even have to leave my defensive zone to do it. |
You've missed Lime's point. Even if the defender wins on his 4,000,000th melee test this combat round, he will force his opponent to resist the same damage he would do if her were the attacker. You can't claim abstraction in this one. It's pretty clear what the rules represent.
I didn't even mention abstraction, and at the extreme pretty much everything seems to break down. While not at the extreme I don't see a problem with the system at all.
on that 4,000,000th attempt that round he's not forcing the attacker to do anything, he can not attack and pursue other venues of survivial. That's darwin in motion if he keeps swinging and losing.
If really fast but unskilled people beat them selves unconscious against a more skilled opponent that just makes them morons. It's pretty easily avoided. If you're getting your ass kicked stop swinging. If you're that much faster you are going to have a lot more options than the slower person.
on that 4,000,000th attempt that round he's not forcing the attacker to do anything, he can not attack and pursue other venues of survivial. That's darwin in motion if he keeps swinging and losing.
If really fast but unskilled people beat them selves unconscious against a more skilled opponent that just makes them morons. It's pretty easily avoided. If you're getting your ass kicked stop swinging. If you're that much faster you are going to have a lot more options than the slower person.
The rules aren't quite realistic, but they seem to work fine from a balance point of view. The fast character can take advantage of a lot of options that the slow character can't (positioning, etc). In a melee engagement, the advantage goes to the first character to deal a damaging blow to his opponent. The faster character acts first and thus can dictate the circumstances of the initial engagement giving him a stronger chance to deal the first damage.
I feel that giving the defender a limited number of counters is the wrong way to go if only because of the way damage is staged in hand to hand. Would you like to have that dikoted katana swinging at you with +4 power because of the successes you couldn't roll against?
If I were to change the rules, as I've said before, I'd simply remove the "if the defender has more successes" portion of the exchange and let only the attacker deal damage with each combat pass. Since it's rare that the defender is going to win these engagements, it really doesn't do much against the defender (again, if you're not built for melee, why the hell are you doing it? Unless you have surprise, that is, and dump mucho CP into the attack) and lessens the effective number of attacks the slow character gets.
I feel that giving the defender a limited number of counters is the wrong way to go if only because of the way damage is staged in hand to hand. Would you like to have that dikoted katana swinging at you with +4 power because of the successes you couldn't roll against?
If I were to change the rules, as I've said before, I'd simply remove the "if the defender has more successes" portion of the exchange and let only the attacker deal damage with each combat pass. Since it's rare that the defender is going to win these engagements, it really doesn't do much against the defender (again, if you're not built for melee, why the hell are you doing it? Unless you have surprise, that is, and dump mucho CP into the attack) and lessens the effective number of attacks the slow character gets.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| I'd have to say, though, that the simple benefit of winning ties will help PA 1. He can make 4 attacks and will only have to defend once. That means that 4 out of the 5 opposed rolls in this turn, he'll have a better chance of hurting than being hurt. And, he gets to go first, due to the high initiative. If he can deal damage in that phase then he has a distinct advantage over the other guy. Edit: Yeah, what Cain said |
Agreed, the tie-goes-to-attacker rule does slant things slightly towards the attacker, I'm just saying in an extreme situation like a difference of 30 in Init score, that doesn't cut it as the only advantage.
Example: With equal skills and (presumed) equal TNs (this, as before, could be debated), both targets have an equal chance of getting more successes than the other. The special case of a tie is actually pretty rare, not TOO rare, but too rare for me to slam the gavel down and shout BALANCED.
I still like my idea of providing reach-like modifiers for great differences in Initiative. I'd like some feedback on it too, if no one would mind reading it over. (This thread, I believe 2nd or 3rd page.)
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| If I were to change the rules, as I've said before, I'd simply remove the "if the defender has more successes" portion of the exchange and let only the attacker deal damage with each combat pass. Since it's rare that the defender is going to win these engagements, it really doesn't do much against the defender (again, if you're not built for melee, why the hell are you doing it? Unless you have surprise, that is, and dump mucho CP into the attack) and lessens the effective number of attacks the slow character gets. |
The consequence (if there even is one) of this new ruling is that no defender will ever do anything besides Full Defense, which disregards the 'ties go to the attacker' rule. Balanced in the sense that now, the defender can do no damage, this has the unfortunate side effect of making it a little to A LOT harder to attack someone in melee if they'll always go full defense.
There are reasons not to go full defense even with that type of ruling. If, for instance, you intend to attack back during your next phase, you can't go full defense. The shift in probabilities is pretty small since the defender does have to use and succeed with combat pool dice in order to actually avoid the attack completely (actually, it doesn't say that the attacker doesn't win a tie. It makes no statements at all about ties under the full defense section)
Ack, you're right. I thought on Full Defense, if you tied, because the Defender is actively Defending, you missed. Meet or beat successes was going through my head. Guess I was wrong last game, Smiley. Next time I'll just sit in a corner and cry.
| QUOTE |
| So now you're trying to say its a psychic power that causes the attacker to trip and hurt themselves without the defender having to do anything. Oy. |
Nope. I'm saying that when you win a melee test, that doesn't mean you had to hit the other guy, or do much of anything different.
Look, think of it this way. We're all familiar with the basic outside block, yes? From your combat position, your hand drifts into your centerline, shoots outward and upward, to a point just above the other guy's shoulderline. This is a basic block, part of every martial art I'm aware of; in every art that I can think of, it's uses include defending against a cross or a hook, catching the punch on the opponent's forearm.
Well, let's say you modify it slightly. Since you have to lead with your elbow anyways, instead of making contact with your forearm, you make contact with your elbow. Now, the other guy has slammed his soft forearm into your hard elbow, at the same force that he was trying to hit you with. Now, since you haven't finished the move yet, your hand continues to the proper stopping point-- but now, because your arm is in a slightly different position, your hand's natural stopping point will be just next to the other guy's chin. Since he's still moving-- his arm will stop before his torso does, according to basic physics-- he collides with your fist. You've got his momentum going, plus the momentum you needed to stop his punch; so he ends up getting hit with more force than either of you imparted individually.
The other guy is hurt, hurt worse than if you had punched him normally. And all you did was the basic outward block, at the same basic speed. (For the record, this is only the beginning-- in that basic sequence of block/punch, I can personally see about eight hits. The people who taught me to think like this can see twenty-five or more apiece.) Moral of the story: sometimes you can do a lot more damage on defense than offense.
| QUOTE |
| There are reasons not to go full defense even with that type of ruling. If, for instance, you intend to attack back during your next phase, you can't go full defense. |
I don't have my rulebook handy, but I think you're getting Full Defense and Evasion mixed up.
| QUOTE |
| Example: With equal skills and (presumed) equal TNs (this, as before, could be debated), both targets have an equal chance of getting more successes than the other. The special case of a tie is actually pretty rare, not TOO rare, but too rare for me to slam the gavel down and shout BALANCED. |
YMMV, of course; my math indicated about a 60/40 split in favor of the attacker, which I felt was just about right. Ties are actually the most common result.
| QUOTE |
| Nope. I'm saying that when you win a melee test, that doesn't mean you had to hit the other guy, or do much of anything different. |
Actually, yes, it does. The damage you inflict when you win is caused directly by the weapon you're weidling. You either bitchslapped the bajeevus out of the opponent, or whacked 'em with your weapon. There is no side-stepping or otherwise causing the opponent to hit himself. *You* hit *him* with *your* weapon in exactly the same way you would if you were the one initiating the attack (all the same modifiers apply, Reach is based upon your weapon, and the damage code is based on your weapon).
| QUOTE |
| Actually, yes, it does. The damage you inflict when you win is caused directly by the weapon you're weidling. |
Which means what, precicely?
Did I kick him in the knee, or did I punch him in the face? In reality, those don't do the same amount of damage. Apparently, I should do less damage if I poked him with my pinky than if I spinning-cresent-kicked him in the head. Or does it really not matter-- the guy takes X damage, regardless of rather or not I punched or kicked or bit or poked. Shouldn't I do more damage if I hit with an elbow than if I hit with a ridgehand? Won't a knee to the groin hurt more than a punch to the ribs?
So, I won an unarmed combat test. Does that mean I hit the guy with a punch? A kick? Does it matter? But how can that be, since a kick doesn't do the same damage as a punch? Could a trip really cause a 4 M Stun? Should a punch do that? And if a punch does, shouldn't a kick do something like a 5 M stun?
Shadowrun is an abstract system, with abstract damage. When an attacker gets hurt, it could be a lot of different things that damaged him; it really doesn't matter.
If you want to take it into reality, each and every technique used should have its own individual damage code. I personally don't want to take it that far, so I just abstract attacker error in with the normal damage. It fits, and it doesn't require differential calculus to run a game.
| QUOTE (Cain @ May 1 2004, 02:17 AM) | ||
I don't have my rulebook handy, but I think you're getting Full Defense and Evasion mixed up. |
Yeah, I did. However, the only advantage to full defense is that it lets you spend more CP than your skill to evade the attack, so it's still not unbalancing in any way shape or form. If someone was going to be able to hit you back, they'd see no net benefit from the effort anyway (since they'd have a high skill).
Woohoo! That dikote treatment you applied to your katana just increased the amount of damage your attacker did when you stepped out of the way and he tripped and bumped his head on a rock.
Is there anything Dikote can't do?
Is there anything Dikote can't do?
ACL please reread your own "grasping at straws" argument above and apply it to yourself, thanks.
Why? You guys are the ones claiming that a counterattack -- despite the fact that it's called a counterattack -- includes things like this:
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Look, you guys are thinking about "counterattcking" the wrong way. If you come charging in at high speed, and miss, what's going to happen to you? If you just miss, you're going to keep going, and likely trip over the guy; congratulations, you just gave yourself roadrash/punched a brick wall full-force/ran into his fist. |
So yes, miraculously, if you "charge" an opponent at high speed and "miss" you're "going to keep going," "trip over" your opponent and "punch a brick wall" that, in some bizarre reality that you two are living in, get hurt by exactly the same amount of damage you would have if your opponent had hit you with his sword. Moreso if it were a dikoted sword, even though you damaged yourself by "punch[ing] a brick wall" instead. Complete with any reach and weapon focuses it might have, too.
Sorry, but you guys are the ones grasping at straws, trying desperately to rationalize something away because you don't like how it works any better than anyone else does.
The defender could slightly shift the sword while sidestepping so that the attacker passes right through some of the blade. All with minimal defender action and the defender staying in a defensive position in regard to other opponents.
It's not hard to explain after the event how the damage occured. That's what the SR combat system does well, it lets the GM decide just how the damage occured.
It is hideous to try to explain beforehand how the damage will be done. There are house-rules to change that so it is easy to explain how the damage occurs, you just have to roll on a few extra charts.
It's not hard to explain after the event how the damage occured. That's what the SR combat system does well, it lets the GM decide just how the damage occured.
It is hideous to try to explain beforehand how the damage will be done. There are house-rules to change that so it is easy to explain how the damage occurs, you just have to roll on a few extra charts.
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