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sk8bcn
Ok. A silvergun has flechettes as Ammo. But which weapon can take which ammos?

I tend to think that you can't exchange that easily regular ammos with flechettes but regulars with Explosives or APDS tough.

Am-I wrong?
DrZaius
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Nov 20 2013, 11:21 AM) *
Ok. A silvergun has flechettes as Ammo. But which weapon can take which ammos?

I tend to think that you can't exchange that easily regular ammos with flechettes but regulars with Explosives or APDS tough.

Am-I wrong?


I have always ruled that sliverguns were flechette only. Shotguns can take either flechette or slug (regular) rounds. All other guns can take any ammo BUT flechette. Hope that helps clear it up.

-DrZ
Larsine
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Nov 20 2013, 05:21 PM) *
silvergun

Slivergun, not silvergun. I know players who had this wrong for many years.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Nov 20 2013, 09:49 AM) *
I have always ruled that sliverguns were flechette only. Shotguns can take either flechette or slug (regular) rounds. All other guns can take any ammo BUT flechette. Hope that helps clear it up.

-DrZ


And why, exactly, cannot other weapons use flechette? I have used Shot rounds for my Pistol (Super Blackhawk in .44 Magnum) for years - They make excellent Snake Loads...
Bigity
Way I always read it was Sliverguns were flechette only, but other handguns/rifles (aka anything not a LMG classification and up) could use whatever.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bigity @ Nov 20 2013, 10:53 AM) *
Way I always read it was Sliverguns were flechette only, but other handguns/rifles (aka anything not a LMG classification and up) could use whatever.


Indeed...
DrZaius
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 20 2013, 12:25 PM) *
And why, exactly, cannot other weapons use flechette? I have used Shot rounds for my Pistol (Super Blackhawk in .44 Magnum) for years - They make excellent Snake Loads...


Real life =/= shadowrun. That said, I'm sure you could rule whatever you'd like and have normal guns use flechette. I personally have shied away from that because of the choke rules, which I'm not sure how you would apply to weapons that weren't shotguns or specific flechette weapons.

-DrZ
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Nov 20 2013, 11:27 AM) *
Real life =/= shadowrun. That said, I'm sure you could rule whatever you'd like and have normal guns use flechette. I personally have shied away from that because of the choke rules, which I'm not sure how you would apply to weapons that weren't shotguns or specific flechette weapons.

-DrZ


Again, why would you apply choke rules to anything but Shotguns, which are the only guns in the system that use those rules?
DrZaius
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 20 2013, 01:34 PM) *
Again, why would you apply choke rules to anything but Shotguns, which are the only guns in the system that use those rules?


There's no need to be so argumentative and combative. I literally just said "This is how I've done it". Other than demonstrating your superior knowledge of firearms, what precisely are you adding to the discussion by continuing this line of thought?

-DrZ
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Nov 20 2013, 11:42 AM) *
There's no need to be so argumentative and combative. I literally just said "This is how I've done it". Other than demonstrating your superior knowledge of firearms, what precisely are you adding to the discussion by continuing this line of thought?

-DrZ


Asking questions is being Argumentative? Who New. smile.gif
Apparently I am simply asking you WHY you think that way. Your comments up to this point are not very coherent on your position, and read like you are making statements of fact. Statements which are not accurate. So, I WANTED TO KNOW WHY YOU THOUGHT THAT WAY...
JesterZero
Holy cow. Mark your calendars. On this day in history I found myself in wholehearted agreement with TJ. biggrin.gif

Seriously though, as far as I know, it breaks down like this:
  • Sliverguns can only use flechette. Hence Slivergun.
  • Shotguns can use flechette/shot or slug rounds. They are also the only category of weapon that has a choke setting (which only matters for flechette/shot).
  • All other guns that don't explicitly use some sort of proprietary round can use the other various ammo types (which includes flechette).
Umidori
The question that is being danced around, I think, is if you use Flechette rounds in, say, a pistol, does it default to a certain "choke" value, inflicting the sort of Dodge Penalty associated with flechette's "spread"?

My assumption would be it's just automatically a Narrow Spread, which modifies the Damage Value and the Armor Penetration, but still only hits a single target and doesn't invoke a Dodge Penalty at all. Naturally you then cannot change to a Medium or Wide spread on anything other than a Shotgun.

~Umi
Epicedion
QUOTE (Umidori @ Nov 20 2013, 06:51 PM) *
The question that is being danced around, I think, is if you use Flechette rounds in, say, a pistol, does it default to a certain "choke" value, inflicting the sort of Dodge Penalty associated with flechette's "spread"?

My assumption would be it's just automatically a Narrow Spread, which modifies the Damage Value and the Armor Penetration, but still only hits a single target and doesn't invoke a Dodge Penalty at all. Naturally you then cannot change to a Medium or Wide spread on anything other than a Shotgun.

~Umi


Only Shotguns use the rules for choke and spread, only when firing flechettes. Other guns firing flechettes don't use the choke/spread rules, as those rules are explicitly for shotguns firing flechettes.

EDIT: Also, shotguns don't actually fire flechettes. They fire shot rounds, which use the damage rules for flechettes.
sk8bcn
QUOTE (Larsine @ Nov 20 2013, 06:18 PM) *
Slivergun, not silvergun. I know players who had this wrong for many years.


1st notice for me! But I think the french version has a glitch there.

I'll check to verify but it seems so.
sk8bcn
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Nov 21 2013, 04:51 PM) *
1st notice for me! But I think the french version has a glitch there.

I'll check to verify but it seems so.



ok technically a slivergun is just a worser version of a Predator for rounds, but with a BF mode. And doesn't use choke rules.

Thank you!
Stahlseele
The Slivergun WAS originally, a LIGHT PISTOL. An Auto-Pistol.
Modeled after the Needler-Gun of Molly Millions from Gibsons Cyberpunkt Fame of Neuromancer.
bannockburn
Is there a specific mention somewhere, that shotguns cannot fire all ammo types?
Because I don't remember one.

Rule of thumb: Every weapon can fire every type of ammunition, unless either the weapon is stated to have a restriction (see: Slivergun, dartguns, etc.) or the ammunition states that it can only be used in certain kinds of weapons (e.g. Dragon's Breath or breaching rounds for shotguns).


So, for me it is:
Slivergun: Flechette only (which makes the whole idea absurd, since you can buy the weapon legally with an availability code of R for SR4, but the ammo is F)
Shotguns: Fire everything, although I have houseruled that you can buy regular ammo either as slugs or shot rounds for the same price (because shot ammo is sure as hell not illegal in my game world, and not even as expensive as flechettes)
Other weapons: The whole shebang, no restrictions, except when those are stated.
Vagabond Elf
My take on it is this:

Most weapons can fire any type of round. For these weapons, "Flechette" ammo represents a frangible round like Glazer Safety Ammo ™.

Shotguns can also fire any type of round. However, for a shotgun, "Flechette" represents shot ammo, which uses the flechette rules but has the same cost and availability as regular ammo.

The Slivergun fires a unique needle round, which uses the Flechette rules and costs, but has the same availability as regular ammo. It's also a lot lighter. That's a kludge, but the whole point of needleguns (in any setting) is that one gets high performance against soft targets for less effort than a regular gun firing frangibles.
Umidori
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Nov 21 2013, 08:57 AM) *
ok technically a slivergun is just a worse version of a Predator for rounds, but with a BF mode. And doesn't use choke rules.

Thank you!

Worse?

The Slivergun comes default with an Integral Sound Suppressor, which is very nice, has twice the ammo capacity of a Predator, and actually has superior damage and armor penetration compared to a Predator loaded with Flechette: 8DV + 2 AP, vs. 7D + 4 AP. (And yes, it also has BF capability without modding.)

If you're going to use Flechettes anyway, the Slivergun wins hands down. The downside is you can't use different ammo for different purposes - in particular, you can't swap out to non-lethal rounds.

~Umi
Stahlseele
Wasn't Flechette Changed to have a +5AP?
Or was that 'accidentally' de-errataed again?
Umidori
It's +5 added to the Predator's base of -1, so a net of +4.

~Umi
Stahlseele
ah, i thought it was a flat +5
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 21 2013, 02:39 PM) *
ah, i thought it was a flat +5


Unless you use AP Flechette (+0), which brings the adjustment back to the standard Heavy Pistol of -1 AP.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Umidori @ Nov 21 2013, 03:53 PM) *
Worse?

The Slivergun comes default with an Integral Sound Suppressor, which is very nice, has twice the ammo capacity of a Predator, and actually has superior damage and armor penetration compared to a Predator loaded with Flechette: 8DV + 2 AP, vs. 7D + 4 AP. (And yes, it also has BF capability without modding.)

If you're going to use Flechettes anyway, the Slivergun wins hands down. The downside is you can't use different ammo for different purposes - in particular, you can't swap out to non-lethal rounds.

~Umi


the Slivergun is quite effective if you want to Stun/KO highly Armored Foes

....oh and a +1 to Bannockburns Post smile.gif

with a highly effective Dance
Medicineman
sk8bcn
QUOTE (Umidori @ Nov 21 2013, 08:53 PM) *
Worse?

The Slivergun comes default with an Integral Sound Suppressor, which is very nice, has twice the ammo capacity of a Predator, and actually has superior damage and armor penetration compared to a Predator loaded with Flechette: 8DV + 2 AP, vs. 7D + 4 AP. (And yes, it also has BF capability without modding.)

If you're going to use Flechettes anyway, the Slivergun wins hands down. The downside is you can't use different ammo for different purposes - in particular, you can't swap out to non-lethal rounds.

~Umi


I'm running the full 2050-2072 era and for now, playing in the 3rd ed era, so my comment was with 3rd ed stats in mind.
Stahlseele
Err, it's better in SR3 too O.o
ElFenrir
Fletchette are awesome against unarmored targets; the damage code is increased by one(so a 9M Heavy Pistol bomes 9S, a 8S Shotgun becomes 8D).

Against Armored Targets, you use Ballistic or x2 Impact, whichever ends up *higher*, to defend against the shot. So someone with an Armor Jacket and Forearm Guards(5/4 total) would knock 8 off the power of the attack.

Barriers are doubled against fletchette, and Dermal Plating negates the damage increase flat out. So Joe Sam with Dermal Plating of any level, an Armor Jacket and Forearm Guards would not be the best target to fire fletchette rounds against; you probably want APDS or even just regular old ammo(since the 5 Ballistic armor, while very nice, isn't as bad as the 8 if you're good with your gun.) APDS is usually my ammo of choice in SR3. Most of my standard guns I'll grab regular, gel, and APDS with-a 'main gun' usually gets some loads of AV rounds as well if I'm not playing someone who uses heavy weapons and the vehicle is too far away for a Dikoted melee weapon(and even then, heavy weapons aren't always easy to pass through certain areas with, so having some AV rounds in the more subtle SMG is useful). nyahnyah.gif Shotguns I always get loads of shot rounds for as well, though.
Stahlseele
Still, even then it's a Burst Fire Weapon.
So a +3 to Power and a +1 to Damage.
And it's smaller and lighter(higher conceal)
And it's silenced by default.

Base Conceal(TN of searching Person) is 6.
Add to that 2 from a concealable Holster. 8.
Under a long Coat, that's+50% so 12.
Yes, you have to, on a search, roll a 12 to find an automatic, silenced heavy pistol that will kill anything you care to aim it at.

Against an UNARMORED Target a Slivergun does 9s+3 Bullet Burst=12D Damage.
In a Package that's small enough to be smuggled into most any places to boot.
Especially Places where Armor is something that's kinda frowned upon, because it's not Tres-Chique . .
Yes, kinda Obscene.

On an armored Target, it's still 9M+3=12S Damage. Still not too shabby right?
Especially considering that getting Armor higher than 6 is difficult to accomplish under SR3 rules.
Even more so, if you don't want to look like the Michelin-Man . .

AND: 30 bullets per Clip in the Slivergun. Which is enough for 10 Bursts.
Ares Predator can have differen Bullets, but still only have 15 per clip.
ElFenrir
6 Armor is still pretty hefty though, especially when it cuts directly. Someone with the armor being shot with say 12D after their successes, needs to roll against 6D. That hurts, don't get me wrong.

But a Ruger Super Warhawk with APDS rounds halves their ballistic armor(down to 2 with round down), which means they need to hit 8 on the defense roll(say 10D damage after staging), and I'd rather have to roll vs. 6 than 10. And Secure Jackets are ubiquitous. If you want to use a silenced HP w/ APDS in this same situation it ends up a wash(6 vs. 7 power to roll against), and a Browning has good concealability as well. (A security guard with a Jacket and a Helmet essentially renders the gun a pea-shooter; helmets are +2 Impact added to the +3 to the jacket for 10 after it's doubled, as opposed to 6 Ballistic, halved to 3 with APDS.)


Against UNarmored though no question, the Viper/Fletchette is the better choice to take a target out. Can't see it without a thorough search, silenced, devastating against unarmored targets. There's always a tool for the job, though-the Viper isn't the gun for *everything* in the game.
bannockburn
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Nov 22 2013, 04:49 PM) *
though-the Viper isn't the gun for *everything* in the game.


For just about every situation that doesn't require your target to be alive, it is a very functional tool.
It was always frowned upon in my circles because of its overpoweredness in comparison to other guns and the low, low price.

But it's still very cool. I somehow like needler guns.
Stahlseele
Keep in mind, the Slivergun was a Light Pistol with the appropriate Damage Code in SR1.
In SR2, it was changed to heavy pistol with the same damage code.
And this "Mistake" was fixed by giving it the Heavy Pistol Damage Code in SR3.
At least, this is how i remember it.
The only things that changed were the damage and the designation, nothing else was changed from the light pistol stats.
ElFenrir
Actually, looking at my SR1 Core Book here, the Viper was still listed under 'Heavy'...even though it was considered 'light' in the product description. It's right between the Predator and the Browning in the equipment list, same price as it's always been (600), and all 3 are listed as 'Heavy'(probably due to the range.) However, it's SR1 Damage Code was 2M3 in those days. (The other Light Pistols were 3M2, and the Heavies were 4M2.) Flechette ammo in those days halved Ballistic armor, and doubled Impact. You still used the higher of the two ratings. So the Silvergun was really good still; but an Armor Jacket was still 5/3(or 6 points of impact), that was 6 automatic hits; firing on someone essentially meant they *automatically* cut down the damage 2 levels from the start, before they even rolled Dodge, Body, or anything. So the gun got a pretty nice buff from 1 to 2+, just from changes to the basic system(changing the auto successes, and so on.) The change to how the system worked in 4+(and how firearms in general work in SR5) rendered the gun considerably more neutered than it was in it's 2-3 years, where it was at it's strongest.

A quick note-for those who never played 1(I know the board has some newer players and the weird damage codes might stand out), staging was different. The first number was the target number to save against. The second number was how many hits you needed to stage the damage down 1 level. Armor, in those days, added automatic successes. So 2M3 meant you needed to hit 3 successes against TN 2 to cut it down 1 level. 4M2 meant you needed you needed to roll against TN4, but every 2 successes cut down the damage 1 level. (For a comparison, a Monowhip did 6S4.)

(Looking at SR1 some more, the Ruger used to have the same damage code as the other heavy pistols; they buffed it in SR2.)

IMO, I don't think it(the Viper) was too overpowered-again, most enemies wear some sort of armor, which cut down it's usefulness to 'Ordinary HP levels' once you got to 3 levels of Impact and considerably more for every point of Impact after 3/addition of Dermal Armor), but it had it's major use against unarmored or very lightly armored targets, and plus as many people say here, was taken often due to it's built-in silencer WITH extreme concealability; so even against armored targets you basically had yourself a respectable heavy pistol, at least.

It KINDA did too much I think for one gun at that price(Unarmored kill machine, huge clip, silenced and highly concealable basic HP normally, occasionally rendered crappy by certain enemies); I think keeping it's damage code at Light Pistol might have gone a little way for it(6M(f), 9S burst, keep the rest of the stats even.) It would have no doubt still been taken often, but I think it may have been a *little* better like that. (I haven't nerfed it or anything, though; we've never had the gun abused, though it is traditionally taken as one of our many guns.) Well, okay-it also had the drawback of 'Unable to load Gel Rounds.' Since there are PLENTY of times where you don't want to kill a target, that was a drawback to the weapon.
Stahlseele
god damn it, my memory is so bad it creates alternate realities now? x.x
toturi
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 22 2013, 08:35 PM) *
Against an UNARMORED Target a Slivergun does 9s+3 Bullet Burst=12D Damage.
In a Package that's small enough to be smuggled into most any places to boot.
Especially Places where Armor is something that's kinda frowned upon, because it's not Tres-Chique . .
Yes, kinda Obscene.

But Tres Chique clothing do not necessarily mean that it is unarmored. People who can afford tres chic can also often afford to armor their tres chic clothing.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 23 2013, 05:42 AM) *
But Tres Chique clothing do not necessarily mean that it is unarmored. People who can afford tres chic can also often afford to armor their tres chic clothing.


Which would have brought the damage back to 12S (just like witha "normal" burst fire heavy pistol) against doubled impact armor in SR3 ... Now "pimped" tres chic would have offered how much impact armor? IIRC you could add two levels of modification to previously unarmored clothing => 2 levels of gel pacs would have resulted in 2/2 armor on tres chic and thus 4 points of armor against flechette and additionally lowering the base damage back to M instead of S. Leaving a burst from a Slivergun at a "comfortable" 7S base damage where a generic (non-burst) heavy pistol would have had 7M against the same target.

I'll put it this way: The majority of single armor pieces provided an identical amount of protection against flechette and standard ammo and even against armor like the 5/3 armor vest the flechettes from a Slivergun didn't suddenly become useless (mainly due to its burst capablilites). You needed somewhat "tricked out" combinations of layered armor or security / milspec armor to really invalidate the use of a Slivergun when compared to other heavy pistols.


toturi
QUOTE (Cochise @ Nov 23 2013, 10:44 PM) *
Which would have brought the damage back to 12S (just like witha "normal" burst fire heavy pistol) against doubled impact armor in SR3 ... Now "pimped" tres chic would have offered how much impact armor? IIRC you could add two levels of modification to previously unarmored clothing => 2 levels of gel pacs would have resulted in 2/2 armor on tres chic and thus 4 points of armor against flechette and additionally lowering the base damage back to M instead of S. Leaving a burst from a Slivergun at a "comfortable" 7S base damage where a generic (non-burst) heavy pistol would have had 7M against the same target.

I'll put it this way: The majority of single armor pieces provided an identical amount of protection against flechette and standard ammo and even against armor like the 5/3 armor vest the flechettes from a Slivergun didn't suddenly become useless (mainly due to its burst capablilites). You needed somewhat "tricked out" combinations of layered armor or security / milspec armor to really invalidate the use of a Slivergun when compared to other heavy pistols.

There are other options to gel packs in SR4.
Sendaz
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 23 2013, 05:49 PM) *
There are other options to gel packs in SR4.

Yes, but peanut butter packs proved to be not nearly as effective......
bannockburn
QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 23 2013, 11:49 PM) *
There are other options to gel packs in SR4.

Which is beside the point, since he explained the issue for SR3.
toturi
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Nov 24 2013, 06:51 AM) *
Which is beside the point, since he explained the issue for SR3.

I understood the point. But since the thread was "SR3 and +", I assume that SR4 and SR5 were under discussion as well. Which was my point.
Kronk2
QUOTE (Larsine @ Nov 20 2013, 01:18 PM) *
Slivergun, not silvergun. I know players who had this wrong for many years.

But what if you got it Plated?
Sendaz
QUOTE (Kronk2 @ Nov 25 2013, 05:07 AM) *
But what if you got it Plated?

or if you used silver Flechettes for hunting weres?
sk8bcn
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 22 2013, 01:35 PM) *
Still, even then it's a Burst Fire Weapon.
So a +3 to Power and a +1 to Damage.
And it's smaller and lighter(higher conceal)
And it's silenced by default.

Base Conceal(TN of searching Person) is 6.
Add to that 2 from a concealable Holster. 8.
Under a long Coat, that's+50% so 12.
Yes, you have to, on a search, roll a 12 to find an automatic, silenced heavy pistol that will kill anything you care to aim it at.

Against an UNARMORED Target a Slivergun does 9s+3 Bullet Burst=12D Damage.
In a Package that's small enough to be smuggled into most any places to boot.
Especially Places where Armor is something that's kinda frowned upon, because it's not Tres-Chique . .
Yes, kinda Obscene.

On an armored Target, it's still 9M+3=12S Damage. Still not too shabby right?
Especially considering that getting Armor higher than 6 is difficult to accomplish under SR3 rules.
Even more so, if you don't want to look like the Michelin-Man . .

AND: 30 bullets per Clip in the Slivergun. Which is enough for 10 Bursts.
Ares Predator can have differen Bullets, but still only have 15 per clip.



you put up good points BUT gaz-vent recoils are set on the canon and you have a built in silencer, so your only recoil system could be shock pads, no?

So you'd still suffer a +2 TN (or +3 if no recoil).

(but you convinced me anyways that sliver is a nice gun).
Stahlseele
Yes, Recoil is there . .
But there are better ways of combating 3 points of recoil. Shockpads only work with shoulder Brace or Stock i think.
Customized grip, STR 6, maybe underbarrel weight. Which is a -1 to concealability.
If you have STR12, then you only need the customized grip for 3 points of Recoil Reduction ^^
sk8bcn
I really struggle in the translation of shockpads, shoulder brace, shoulder stocks and so on. I struggle seeing the difference. Could someone, more fluent in english than me, link there images of existing recoil compensations? (well, if they are nor fictionnal ofc)
Stahlseele
shockpads are basically gel pads you put on a stock or hip brace so it does not bruise you as much when you fire. shoulder brace was my mistake, no such thing in SR3.
basically, if you give a pistol a stock, you change it from pistol sized to SMG sized.
Smash
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Nov 21 2013, 03:21 AM) *
Ok. A silvergun has flechettes as Ammo. But which weapon can take which ammos?

I tend to think that you can't exchange that easily regular ammos with flechettes but regulars with Explosives or APDS tough.

Am-I wrong?


Back to the original question.

I kind of agree with this original sentiment. The reason is because we have weapons like the Slivergun and the Roomsweeper. Why do these weapons have specifical rules for ammo types when it seems most people think that all ammos are completely interchangeable?

Like everything, people should do what they want, however I personally think there is value with different guns having different attributes otherwise there might as well only be one type of everything.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Smash @ Nov 25 2013, 11:56 PM) *
Why do these weapons have specifical rules for ammo types when it seems most people think that all ammos are completely interchangeable?


Because they are special weapons.
It's not a matther of "thinking", it's a matter of rules.
General rule. All weapons can use all ammo.
Specific rule: Sliverguns can only fire flechettes.
Specific rule: Shock lock rounds can only be fired by shotguns.

Specific rules trump general rules. Unless there's an exception, the general rule is the go-to.

The reasoning behind this is that it's easier to declare an exception than writing "Weapon X can fire ammo type A, B, C and D, but not E".
Smash
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Nov 26 2013, 10:01 AM) *
Because they are special weapons.
It's not a matther of "thinking", it's a matter of rules.
General rule. All weapons can use all ammo.
Specific rule: Sliverguns can only fire flechettes.
Specific rule: Shock lock rounds can only be fired by shotguns.

Specific rules trump general rules. Unless there's an exception, the general rule is the go-to.

The reasoning behind this is that it's easier to declare an exception than writing "Weapon X can fire ammo type A, B, C and D, but not E".


So what you're saying that because the Roomsweeper specifically has rules about it's use with shot then there is some unwritten rule that it is then precluded from using explosive or armour penetrating rounds while other guns that don't mention ammunition at all can use normal, shot, armour penetration and explosive rounds?

That makes little to no sense to me.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Smash @ Nov 26 2013, 12:52 AM) *
That makes little to no sense to me.


I'm very sorry to read that, since it's one of the most basic tenets of almost all RPGs, and even games in general.

But no, that's not exactly what I'm saying.
The Roomsweeper in your example has a rule where it tells you that it can use shot rounds and then has a choke setting (and other relevant shotgun rules, like doubled recoil if it would be able to be fired in bursts). It does not have a rule that precludes it from firing other types of ammunition as well.

The Slivergun specifically only fires flechette ammunition as per its description, just as a dart pistol cannot fire anything other than darts.
In SR3, there was a firearm construction rule called flechette restriction (or some such, I only have the German book to hand right now) for this purpose.
Apart from this, the name of the gun is pretty telling wink.gif

Now take the Ares Predator, the most iconic SR pistol. Does it tell you anywhere what kind of ammunition it can fire? Do you find any such rule under the general description of heavy pistols or pistols in general? Or even firearms?
Instead, we find in the combat chapter of SR4A, p. 154 under "Ammunition" the following paragraph:
QUOTE
A weapon’s listed Damage Code is based on regular ammunition.
If a specialized form of ammunition is used, it may modify the
weapon’s Damage Value and AP, as noted with the ammo description
(see Ammunition, p.323). Some weapons such as autocannons and
tasers have distinctive ammunition that is already calculated into the
Damage Code of the weapon (see Street Gear, p.310).

In short, this means that the Ares Predator (and most other weapons) can fire any kind of ammunition, including flechette if you desire it.

Unless, of course, you use a type of ammunition that tells you, like e.g. injection darts, which clearly state "For use with dart guns of various types".

Clearer now?
Smash
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Nov 26 2013, 11:20 AM) *
Clearer now?


Actually, Yes.

Never let it be said that I can't be swayed by a well presented position smile.gif Still I think they'd be better off not reflecting ammunition type damage codes in the tables unless it is exclusive (like the Slivergun).
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