As opposed to the generic inner city mall, where everyone is armed?

I'm not saying that I'm _opposed_ to having those cowboy guns. Just that I'll probably not use them actively, unless a player comes along and wants them.

I was hunting for a Predator 2 subway scene, but for once the IntraTubes have failed me.

I can see a "Cowboy 'Runner"-type character, myself.

Well, we have kung-fu trid wanna be adepts, and previously western themed adepts who only used warhawks, so why not?

I play one, actually, so seeing this stuff makes me rather pleased.

It's not a matter of who catches it or doesn't. It's a matter of whose job it is to catch it, and whether or not someone else decides to make a fix after something is caught.

I think the thing you're missing is that proofing and editing aren't the same thing. A proofer's job is to catch spelling and grammatical errors, and then make suggestions in the text for how to fix them (which may or may not be acted upon by The Powers That Be before the book goes to print). An editor's job is to look for stuff that needs fixing otherwise; balance issues, wording issues, clumsy phrases, what-have-you, and then make suggestions in the text for how to fix them (which may or may not be acted upon by The Powers That Be before the book goes to print).

They aren't the same job, for starters, but the important bit to keep in mind is that when a freelancer is doing either (or both) of those jobs, the buck does not stop with him. It's not up to a freelancer what makes it into print on the stuff he writes, much less the stuff someone else writes. We aren't the buck stoppers. We're the ones that are around, so we're often the ones that take up the flag and get into discussions like this, and it's only natural we're the occasional lightning rods. That happens, and we know it happens, but just keep in mind that while we might be the available targets, we're not necessarily the right targets.

All that said? When multiple people, including the target of your ire himself, are pointing out that you're being unnecessarily hostile, you're criticizing the wrong guy, and maybe you should back off? The decent thing to do may be to take that as the opportunity for some retrospection, and backing off.

No one's saying you can't be pissed if you bought a book you think wasn't worth the money. We're just asking you to call out the right people for it.

The proofreader did not give this product much attention on his own admission. The editor (whoever that may be) clearly didn't either, same for the writer of the PDF itself. It ultimately falls on Catalyst who releases incomplete/inaccurate products, whether the proofer and/or editor makes suggestions that aren't taken. For the last time I am not picking on Canray so stop picking on me, thanks.

What bothers me about this is so many people in this thread are defending this product. Wasting my money/time on stuff that seems thrown together and isn't given proper balancing with the rest of the gear in the game universe isn't my idea of a smart buy, and I don't want to further fund Catalyst if they think this is an acceptable finished product. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is just mine. We got burned with SR5s horrible editing and I was hoping for more attention to the product in future releases but the company clearly doesn't think supporting a playable product is a priority.

Have you per chance started buying into Shadowrun with Fifth Edition?
I can find no explanation for your surprise otherwise. I mean, have you seen Parazoology?

Oh no doubt old editions were full of errors, but I was hoping for an increased attention to customer service which Catalyst hasn't shown.

Don't worry, folks! I just received confirmation that the RF Carbine is going to have its stats tweaked in the Gun Heaven Errata slated to come out in 2018!

...it's gaining an additional point of Recoil Compensation.

~Umi

I don't believe you! That is awfully soon for an errata publication.

As for the absurdly high damage, they're keeping it, but turning it into a Wireless Bonus. If you aren't running the weapon Online, it drops to only 7P.

~Umi

I'm not picking on you, and I'm certainly not doing so with the vehemence you're leveling at CanRay right now.

I'm not saying you can't be upset about the quality of a product. I tried to make that clear, and I've always tried to make that clear, on any topic, here on DS. All I'm asking you to do is to be upset at the right people. CanRay is not the right person. CanRay is here, so he's the one you've been leveling a lot of flak at. I'm just asking you to stop it, because you are wrong to be doing so.

You might feel you're not picking on Ray, but he, and others, and I, are all trying to show you that you have been. Maybe this will help to show where we're coming from, here, so you can learn to recognize the behavior and curb it in the future.

You started by assuming (quite incorrectly) that CanRay wrote it. Even when corrected, though, your attitude doesn't improve.


Then you clearly confused the job of a proofreader and an editor. CanRay was a proofer, not an editor. Proofers proofread for spelling and grammatical errors, and -- this is important, please listen to me -- they still aren't where the buck stops.

Do you get that? I can point you to dozens of times proofers have found errors and made comments, in the game industry, and their comments have not been acted upon. This is, for what it's worth, also true of freelancers who are doing work as editors. So even if CanRay was supposed to be editing the book (and he wasn't), even if he had spoken up about this carbine (which he didn't, because it wasn't his job), it likely wouldn't have mattered, because as a freelancer there's no guarantee that your comments and suggestions will be acted upon.

So blaming the proofer, and sometimes even an individual editor, and often even a writer in this industry (really anyone but the head editor of a product, and sometimes even someone higher up than them) is incorrect.


Then you said CanRay released lazy shit, and insisted he not pass the blame (despite, as we've pointed out, editing isn't his job, and despite, as we've pointed out, even if it was his job it's not just his job, so he's still not the guy to be mad at).

You've replied specifically to CanRay several times, you're using fairly incendiary language -- stupid, lazy shit, etc -- and you're doing so time and again, all while being wrong about what you think his job and his responsibilities are. I cannot fathom how you think that isn't rude, and how you think my responses to you are.

I'm not defending a product from your opinion. I'm defending my friend from you being mad at the wrong guy for said product. Be mad if you bought a book and you're not happy with it. Be mad to your heart's content. Vent. Rage. Gnash your teeth. Complain to the high heavens. Just be mad at the right people for the right things, okay? I don't think I'm "picking on you" by making that request.

All that said, I'm willing to drop this completely if you are. I'm just trying to lay this out so you can better understand where I'm coming from, and to try to make it clear I'm not necessarily defending the product (by which I mean the carbine in particular to the book as a whole; I had nothing to do with this book, and to be honest I haven't even read it yet, I've been busy). I'm not saying not to be critical of products you don't like. I'd never say that. I'm just trying to make it clear to you that you're upset at the wrong guy, right now, and that it'd be a great Christmas gift if you'd stop. Ray's good people, and a freelance proofer isn't the guy to insult over a piece of gear you don't like.

...except when firing at TMs, in which case the damage goes up to 20 P

TM Seeking Bullets, Of Course.

Clockwork approved TM Seeking Bullets.

Who do you think designed them? He even gave the Corporation a discount.

He charged 1¥ less than he normally did.

I hear these new rounds don't resonate well with the TM community...

They create dissonance, that's why.

So would you say that they create dissonance well?

These puns are so bad they're giving me nodebleeds. You'd better stop before I get ultraviolent.

~Umi

OK, I'm busy raising a few at the Korova Milk Bar in memory of Mikhail Kalashnikov.

So, as someone who actually deals with firearms for a living I'd like to say one thing.

I can understand the mess of stats, since 5e is all kinds of fragged anyways(still fun, but needs to be houseruled to hell and back). I can almost understand taking so long for errata(though the piddly amount we recieved for the amount of time it took could have been done inside of a week by the community, along with fixing the sample characters).

But the art? If you're going to take a picture of a real gun, throw it through a photoshop filter, or add a little bit of extra shit on it in a way that my unskilled ass can replicate after 20 minutes of googling(including finding the pictures you used as the original in two cases), then you can get bent.

Here's a list of the slightly photoshopped guns, BTW:
Colt New Model Revolver(It's a fucking Smith and Wesson K22 with King Target sights and some extra bits)
Colt Agent Special(It's a Colt New Agent Lightweight. You photoshopped two words. Nothing else.)
Colt Future Frontier(It's a fragging Colt Frontier)
Cavalier Arms Gladius(It's a Carl Gustav M/45 with extra shit on it and chrome)
Krime Boss(tacticlol Remington 870 with a derpy pistol grip setup, Saiga 12K drum, and an assortment of badly photoshopped bits on top)
Winchester Model 2066(It's a Winchester 1887 with engravings)
Springfield 2003(Someone did a horrible thing to a Springfield 1903)
Winchester Model 2024(It's a Winchester 1895. Like straight up. You turned it grey and added a scope)
MARLIN 3468SS(It's a fucking marlin levergun, but you couldn't even be bothered to find one in .45-70 to photoshop. You photoshopped a goddamned .22LR)
Springfield M1A( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...3/SA_M1A_NM.jpg you stole a goddamned photo off of wikipedia. How bloody lazy are you lot?)
M1 Garand( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...arand-Rifle.jpg you cut out the enbloc clips from the wiki photo)
SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1855 REPRODUCTION(no, just no, frag right off.)
MARLIN 3041 BL(another lightly photoshopped Marlin!)
MARLIN X71(Someone's Remington 700 build by the looks of it)
MARLIN 79S(Ruger 10/22 with a body I don't recognize and an underfolder stock)
WINCHESTER MODEL 2067 (Winchester 94 with a rail, moved sights, and some cuts in the stock)
KRIME WAVE(It's a photoshopped MG-42/MG3/MG4/one of the MG-42 line with a fragging M4 stock on it)

That's 18 of 33 guns that are minimal effort photoshops, and at least three of those are taken directly from the wiki page. That's just the ones I'm familiar enough with to recognize. It took fifteen minutes to write this post, including five minutes of trying to hunt down the specific images you used. Good job there, a single person could have very likely made the same book inside of six hours of work! Or three people could have done it in two hours. But it took FIFTEEN PEOPLE(including nine people do the art!) several months! Were you lot all busy sniffing paste as children, or did you hire the handicapped as a public service? If so, they did a pretty good job for some seriously mentally handicapped children, but if it was capable adults making this book you should all be fired for sheer incompetence.

edit: fixed some links

At least the M1A pic is attributed public domain. The Garand one isn't, if that's actually the source image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M1-Garand-Rifle.jpg

It's Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike.

I don't have a copy of GH3, is there an image credits section?

It's been a while since I saw such passion in a post.

Passion for Can(n)on if you will.

Judging by the recoil booster, it's the 42


And then there's the SBD-44, which is not a straight photoshop, but artwork and fluff and shadowtalk are really just minor modifications of the Stg-44



Nope, the belt in GH looks different from that image.

A few more minutes of googling, this image looks suspiciously familiar:

http://s988.photobucket.com/user/dartmanx5...ort=3&o=128

(And the political undertones from that bucket kinda fit right into GH, but that is another story...)