Ran my ideas by a couple friends of mine and came up with this; I think it really just might work:
The faster combatant recieves a Speed Reach bonus equal to the difference in ititiative between the two combatants / 10, rounded down. This bonus is not available during the first melee combat of the combat turn, and is available at 1 point progressive for each melee combat thereafter. This bonus functions as reach normally, but is not negatable by the Close Combat maneuver.
Basically, one speed crazy attacker with 5 actions this turn gets no bonus when attacking his opponent who has 1 action this round, but if he proceeds to attack for every action after his first, he'll have 1 point of reach for his second melee attack, 2 for his third, 3 for his fourth, and 4 for his fifth. Melee combats do not need to be consecutive for the bonus to carry over (though it resets at the beginning of each new turn, naturally). Personally, I think a person moving at 5 times the speed of a normal human being should ultimately have one hell of an edge, but he should definitely have to work for it.
A couple final notes: this is only applicable on offensive melee actions, which means a fast character doesn't get to build up a defensive bonus when being hit a second or third time. As a possible addendum suggested by a friend of mine, the bonus resets if the attacker desides to switch the reach bonus from applying to his skill roll to his opponents (or vice versa).
Initially, I was a little worried that initiative difference / 10 would be too powerful. 20, on the other hand, basically makes Speed Reach of 2 something that'll practically never happen, and even 15 makes it extremely rare. How often do you have a divide of 30 between two melee combatants? Given the people'll that'll be meeting in melee, seems likely that 10 is actually fairly balanced in practice.
Full Version: Fixing speed in melee?
It's a little like the post I had put up on the other Thread about this, but definitely better. Speed in melee, if it gives you any advantage at all, shouldn't give you much, and shouldn't give you immediate. Plus, you can only get the full advantage of the speed reach bonus if and only if you fight for a few rounds. I for one like it.
Too complicated. Why not simply rule that defending in a melee fight requires a complex action?
If you are attacked in a melee battle you must use a complex action from your next initiative pass to defend yourself. If you choose not to do so you do not recieve any dice from your applicable skill, but may use combat pool dice to dodge. If you have no actions left this turn you cannot use your melee skill to defend yourself.
This would not only be realistic, it would make a lower melee combat skill a viable option (As things stand anything less than 6 = suicide), as a relatively weak character could use melee combat to distract an enemy long enough for a teammate to shoot him in the head.
If you are attacked in a melee battle you must use a complex action from your next initiative pass to defend yourself. If you choose not to do so you do not recieve any dice from your applicable skill, but may use combat pool dice to dodge. If you have no actions left this turn you cannot use your melee skill to defend yourself.
This would not only be realistic, it would make a lower melee combat skill a viable option (As things stand anything less than 6 = suicide), as a relatively weak character could use melee combat to distract an enemy long enough for a teammate to shoot him in the head.
I dunno, Spider. I'm more comfortable with small, stacked modifiers for the faster character than I am with whole complex actions spent on defending. The former seems less capable of being abused. Not that yours doesn't work as a good houserule, but if I'm deigning to change the combat rules because I think it's too simplified, I'll probably go with the more complicated alternative.
I still favor the notion of removing counterattacks completely and making the melee test an opposed roll with only the attacker able to deal damage (ie, when defender successes > attacker successes, nothing happens).
It's the simplest fix and makes the faster character more powerful in that he has twice the chances to deal damage as the slower character.
It's the simplest fix and makes the faster character more powerful in that he has twice the chances to deal damage as the slower character.
A TN mod is never ever a "Small stacked modifier" a TN mod in melee combat has a huge, huge effect, even a + or -1.
If you want counterattacking to use up actions, make it a simple action to reflect how defense usually requires less action. That way, a person can defend twice as often as they could attack and must be careful about how their actions are used up. I still see no reason for it, but it's better than the hideous TN mods and other equally excessive adjustments that have been suggested.
The problem with requiring the expenditure of a complex or simple action to defend is that you create a dynamic where the defender can defend himself just fine for an attack or two and then suddenly stops and stands still as attacks come in. Yes, it's stimple. It's also silly as hell.
Are Speed Reach modifiers significant? Yeah. But they don't come easy, and when do people with more than difference of 29 really ever get into melee combat?
Are Speed Reach modifiers significant? Yeah. But they don't come easy, and when do people with more than difference of 29 really ever get into melee combat?
Keep in mind that the Complex Action used to attack allows as many as the attacker wants, but at increasing TN#.
How about this: Defenders get a +1TN after every turn they counterattack if they are out of actions.
If a Street Samurai gets four turns, and a normal gets two...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10 and...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty; now gaining a +1TN to his next defense.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks at a +1TN
If Norm had only gone once, his last defense would have been at +2TN, but only if he had previously counterattacked.
Another idea is to not allow Combat Pool to refresh if out of turns and still engaged in melee combat. Of course, anyone with a gun standing five meters outside of the fight will love this.
How about this: Defenders get a +1TN after every turn they counterattack if they are out of actions.
If a Street Samurai gets four turns, and a normal gets two...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10 and...
Sam goes first, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty.
Norm goes second, attacks. Sam defends, counterattacks without penalty.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks without penalty; now gaining a +1TN to his next defense.
-10...
Sam goes, attacks. Norm defends, counterattacks at a +1TN
If Norm had only gone once, his last defense would have been at +2TN, but only if he had previously counterattacked.
Another idea is to not allow Combat Pool to refresh if out of turns and still engaged in melee combat. Of course, anyone with a gun standing five meters outside of the fight will love this.
There's a difference between a counterattack (where your goal is to hurt the opponent) and defending yourself (where you simply counter successes).
I've been using this house rule for quite a while and it's worked without a hitch. Unaugmented characters don't gain any advantages from augmented opponents, nor are they left helpless as their skill is still the dominating force behind the encounter.
The house rule is pretty simple: If you have a Simple Action available that phase, you can sacrifice it to counterattack (which is particularly useful especially for adepts with the Counterstrike power). Otherwise, you're simply defending yourself. One of the perks of a counterattack for mundane characters is that it is only a Simple Action, allowing them to either counterattack twice (if facing multiple opponents) or perform some other Simple Action when their turn comes up.
I've been using this house rule for quite a while and it's worked without a hitch. Unaugmented characters don't gain any advantages from augmented opponents, nor are they left helpless as their skill is still the dominating force behind the encounter.
The house rule is pretty simple: If you have a Simple Action available that phase, you can sacrifice it to counterattack (which is particularly useful especially for adepts with the Counterstrike power). Otherwise, you're simply defending yourself. One of the perks of a counterattack for mundane characters is that it is only a Simple Action, allowing them to either counterattack twice (if facing multiple opponents) or perform some other Simple Action when their turn comes up.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| The problem with requiring the expenditure of a complex or simple action to defend is that you create a dynamic where the defender can defend himself just fine for an attack or two and then suddenly stops and stands still as attacks come in. Yes, it's stimple. It's also silly as hell. Are Speed Reach modifiers significant? Yeah. But they don't come easy, and when do people with more than difference of 29 really ever get into melee combat? |
What do you mean silly? That's exactly how melee combat should occur with one opponent faster. On the first attack you might be able to block, but additional attacks which come faster than you react overwhelm your reflexes and leave you in bad shape to defend anymore. What's more your own idea does the exact same thing, the first attack is blocked just fine, the rest are hard to block. Observe:
An MBW4 Cyberzombie attacks a tanked non-speed Samurai. Both have a Melee combat skill of 6. MBW4 boy has 5 initiative passes, the samurai has 1.
In the first pass the Zombie attacks the Samurai melee style. The Samurai is able to use his normal combat skills to successfully block and even get a hit in back, but in the process he loses his complex action.
Role-playing-wise the Samurai has effectively blocked the Zombie using his own reflexes, however in doing so he's left off balance by the Zombie's faster moves.
Second Pass the CZ attacks again, this time, being off-balance, the Samurai can't attack back but is able to dodge using up his combat pool in the process.
Role-playing-wise the Samurai now simply leaps backwards to avoid combat with the zombie altogether, but he's in bad shape now for further combat despite not haveing taken any wounds.
Third pass the CZ attacks yet again. The Lightning barrage of attacks have exceeded any ability of the Samurai to counter. He's simply going to have to suck it up and pray his augmented body holds out.
What I'm saying is that in the system I proposed, it gets significantly difficult to defend against successive and very quickly overwhelming attacks, but it's not impossible. I dislike a system that simply lays down a rule instead of making the dynamic mechanically emergent.
That said, I think I really am growing to like the idea of requiring a simple action to counter attack and otherwise simply not allowing the defender to do damage. I'd like to include speed based bonuses one way or another, but I'm starting wonder if it's really doable.
That said, I think I really am growing to like the idea of requiring a simple action to counter attack and otherwise simply not allowing the defender to do damage. I'd like to include speed based bonuses one way or another, but I'm starting wonder if it's really doable.
You're forgetting something...the whole counter attack thing...it's basically a way to show the instinctive portion of melee combat. Let's say Player 1 has an unarmed combat 6 and 1 action per round, let's say that player 2 has unarmed combat at 3, but he's a quick, wiry bastard, and gets a round with three actions. Reallistically speaking, somebody who's trained to fight with their hands (or melee weapon) can take advantage of somebody else's mistake to score a hit on their opponent (thus the oppossed dice rolls). Remember the rolled attacks are a representation of significant effort in a fight. There's a lot of feinting, blocking, dodging, dancing around, etc in a fight, that for storyline purposes would be pretty dull. Try watching a movie with the fights done like you roll for shadowrun...it's all the stuff in between that makes it visually appealling and believable.
I'm not forgetting about counter attacks. I'm saying that a person who normally gets one attack shouldn't be benefitted by essentially getting three attacks for free when the poor speed samurai makes the mistake of attacking him three times of his own volition, only to have his ass handed to him four times faster than would have been possible if he stood completely still and asked his slow budy to hit him. Speed should give a benefit in melee. I'm just worried that there's no way to factor it in without either not going far enough or going too far and negating skill's presence in the equation.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| A TN mod is never ever a "Small stacked modifier" a TN mod in melee combat has a huge, huge effect, even a + or -1. |
Granted, my point is, I'd rather take a modifier than have to sacrifice the entirety of a complex action, which is plus or minus a LOT of modifiers.
I'm either for the original post or the "by default defending, simple action to counterattack". They both make sense intuitively.
But that's the thing about taking a big swing...you leave yourself open to the counter attack...that's where skill comes into play. If you're more skilled, you should still be able to take down a faster opponent (within reason). If what you're going for is to give another player a shot with a ranged weapon, tell the gm you're going full defense. If you're outclassed, that's real life. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. What kills you, provides food for ghouls.
What do you mean by within reason? We're potentially talking about augmented combatants operating at 5 times the speed of a normal human being. I don't even know what you're referring to by talking about taking a big swing.
I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread, for what ever good it will do me. Melee is fine. Don't change it. YMMV
| QUOTE (Gem the Troll) |
| But that's the thing about taking a big swing...you leave yourself open to the counter attack...that's where skill comes into play. |
Not only skill, but the initiative to take that chance. If I've got to take a big swing, and I leave myself open, you've still got to take the time out from anything else you might be doing to hit me back. It's like saying, having a guy in your sights automatically is cause for a reflexive pull trigger action for free. Take an action for landing an attack, a Simple action (instead of complex) because it's easier to counterattack than to attack, but an action no less.
Bull, with skilled martial artists, noone "takes the time" to do anything, there's not even conscious thought involved. They swing, you hurt them for it, pure and complete reflex, no though is involved at all. If you have to think about it, they means you're not very good at it and are unlikely to suceed. That's the point of practicing it in repetition over and over, to make it reflex.
| QUOTE |
| If you have to think about it, they means you're not very good at it and are unlikely to suceed. That's the point of practicing it in repetition over and over, to make it reflex. |
Comments like that support what Arethusa is saying 
| QUOTE |
| There's a difference between a counterattack (where your goal is to hurt the opponent) and defending yourself (where you simply counter successes). |
There's not, actually. That's a mistake many beginners make, though, so don't take it the wrong way.
Look, we're all familiar with the basic outside block. If I change my aim on it just slightly, what's the difference between an outside block and a backfist to the chin? About ten-fifteen degrees. The same is true for most blocks. Kicks are the same as steps; so if you move, you may as well have kicked.
You're thinking "I defend, then I attack." Which is great, and is how beginners are taught to see things. Once you get into it further, however, you start seeing them as one-- there's no difference between an attack and a defense.
Really, the goal of a defense is to not get hurt, right? Well, if the other guy's on the floor unconscious, he's not going to be hurting me much. If I can stop or avoid his punch, that's great! But if I can stop or avoid his punch, and incidentally knock him unconscious, that's even better.
| QUOTE |
| Not only skill, but the initiative to take that chance. If I've got to take a big swing, and I leave myself open, you've still got to take the time out from anything else you might be doing to hit me back. |
Sort-of and not really. If you're really skilled, you'll have already anticipated that, and be in a position to hurt the guy. Speed is a result of skill, and not the other way around.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| They swing, you hurt them for it, pure and complete reflex, no though is involved at all. |
And yet you still can't grasp why people who have a problem with it have a problem with it for that very thing.
Some regular Joe Schmoe (his skill level is completely and totally irrelevant) fighting four Joe SuperSchmoes (whose skill levels are likewise irrelevant, but they do possess SUPERHUMAN REFLEXES) is NOT going to have his reflexes increased one iota. Yet the rules, as they stand, result in that very thing. Joe Schmoe just gained superhuman reflexes SIMPLY because he was fighting four people who augmented reflexes up to four, five, or even six times in excess of what an unaugmented human could possibly achieve or conceive (3+1D6 or average of 6 vs. 15+4D6 or average of 29).
Even Wired Reflexes 1 is beyond comprehension. Imagine the fastest, more reflexive person you've ever seen in your life. Now drill it into your head that he's an unaugmented human. No magic. No cyberware. His Initiative is a mere 1D6 and his Reaction is, at absolute most, 10, but more likely closer to 6. A whole 6+1D6. And Wired Reflexes adds 2+1D6 on top of that.
So yeah, it is retarded that the rules allow Joe Schmoe to simulate the incredible REFLEXES of someone with, no shock here, superhumanly augmented REFLEXES.
If such things didn't exist and we were just talking about a bunch of regular humans with no augmentation in existance, I wouldn't have as much trouble with the rules or your rationalization thereof. But as it stands, all the stuff you keep going on about has no bearing on the reality of the gameworld.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| There's not, actually. That's a mistake many beginners make, though, so don't take it the wrong way. |
And you're wondering why I'm not responding to you any longer, oh great Kung Fu master who knows all. <bows>
I agree BitBasher - which is why I like Arethusa's suggestion of 'speed reach'.
While the counters are reflex and so doesn't take 'time' as far as actually planning out an action go, there should be difference between someone who is a normal metahuman and someone who replaced his spinal cord with superconductors (or worse - has a Move-by-Wire) simply because their reflexes are just a little bit faster.
The 'speed reach' is a good indicator of that, I think. I'm gonna run this by my gaming group - see what they think.
While the counters are reflex and so doesn't take 'time' as far as actually planning out an action go, there should be difference between someone who is a normal metahuman and someone who replaced his spinal cord with superconductors (or worse - has a Move-by-Wire) simply because their reflexes are just a little bit faster.
The 'speed reach' is a good indicator of that, I think. I'm gonna run this by my gaming group - see what they think.
Almost forgot....
While I personally see the rules as being decently balanced as is, one of the interpretations I add is that you can only change your combat option/maneuvers on your action. Thus, faster people have more flexibility to respond to the other guy.
As an example: Slowpoke Segal is fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme-Hes-Fast. Slowpoke is on his last initiative pass, and decides to instigate Evasion, in order to try and outlast his opponent. Jean realizes this, and on his next pass-- and subesquent remaining actions-- switches over to Full Offense. The increased TN to be hit is meaningless, since Segal can't actually cause him any damage.
While I personally see the rules as being decently balanced as is, one of the interpretations I add is that you can only change your combat option/maneuvers on your action. Thus, faster people have more flexibility to respond to the other guy.
As an example: Slowpoke Segal is fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme-Hes-Fast. Slowpoke is on his last initiative pass, and decides to instigate Evasion, in order to try and outlast his opponent. Jean realizes this, and on his next pass-- and subesquent remaining actions-- switches over to Full Offense. The increased TN to be hit is meaningless, since Segal can't actually cause him any damage.
| QUOTE |
| And you're wondering why I'm not responding to you any longer, oh great Kung Fu master who knows all. <bows> |
You forgot the "notworthy" smiley.
Seriously, though, it's okay. You don't have any experience with martial arts, no big deal. You're preferring a cinematic style to a more realistic one. That's cool if that's what you want. Just don't go around thinking your rules are realistic, ok?
I promise, I won't send the gaming police after you!
Yes, I have no experience at all. I am a mere peon compared to you. You and you alone, like the much beloved katanaphiles and their mystical reverence of Japanese steel, know the truth about the power of Kung Fu. It is unstoppable, unbeatable, and whatever other whizbang baloney you want to go on about it. Even a magically-enhanced adept with more magical power and speed than you can even imagine has nothing on the power of some ordinary bloke with a few years of demonstrational Kung Fu under his belt. <bows again>
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| You're preferring a cinematic style to a more realistic one. That's cool if that's what you want. |
Right... because the current system of the master martial artist who can counterattack in effectively 0 time is totally counter to drama; I certainly know that no chop-socky film I've ever seen depicts the ability of unaugmented people to react many times faster than the norm.
I don't have a particular problem with your desire to shoot down Lime, but please at least make the objections sensible.
Random thought, somewhat in line with AC Lime's proposal, but taking into account some of the stuff Cain said.
For characters *not* on Full Defense, Defending/Counterattacking is only possible one time per opponent per initiative pass available to the combatant. This does not require the use of an action (it is still reflexive), but represents inherent ability to track and process the movements of individual opponents. Simply put, the *fastest* unaugmented combatant is not capable of reacting quickly enough to the raw speed with which a wired combatant can attack without special attention. Note that unaugmented individuals are still fully capable of defending themselves against multiple attacks from different opponents.
When characters *are* using Full Defense, they are more capable of defending themselves against faster opponents. For each attack from a combatant beyond that which the defender could normally counter, the defender's [effective skill is reduced by 1]/[TN to defend is increased by 1] (circle one)
Thoughts?
For characters *not* on Full Defense, Defending/Counterattacking is only possible one time per opponent per initiative pass available to the combatant. This does not require the use of an action (it is still reflexive), but represents inherent ability to track and process the movements of individual opponents. Simply put, the *fastest* unaugmented combatant is not capable of reacting quickly enough to the raw speed with which a wired combatant can attack without special attention. Note that unaugmented individuals are still fully capable of defending themselves against multiple attacks from different opponents.
When characters *are* using Full Defense, they are more capable of defending themselves against faster opponents. For each attack from a combatant beyond that which the defender could normally counter, the defender's [effective skill is reduced by 1]/[TN to defend is increased by 1] (circle one)
Thoughts?
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Yes, I have no experience at all. I am a mere peon compared to you. You and you alone, like the much beloved katanaphiles and their mystical reverence of Japanese steel, know the truth about the power of Kung Fu. It is unstoppable, unbeatable, and whatever other whizbang baloney you want to go on about it. Even a magically-enhanced adept with more magical power and speed than you can even imagine has nothing on the power of some ordinary bloke with a few years of demonstrational Kung Fu under his belt. <bows again> |
Dude, chill out. He's simply stating a fact. He knows a lot about Karate, which by no objection on your part, I assume you don't. He's not saying you're worthless, he's saying he has expertise in a relevant field in the nicest way possible. If I say something about a .45 calibur round, and Captain Dave corrects me, I default to him, because he knows a shit lot more about guns than I do. I don't get offended, because it's MY fault I don't know about guns (and I'm ok with that.)
Don't get all defensive when someone's trying to tell you a fact in the most polite way possible. I accepted that I don't know jack about Martial Arts a long time ago, and shut up, and I didn't get offended.
What makes either of you think I don't know what I'm talking about? Ever consider that I'm not the type to brag about my achievements, or assume that my personal experience makes me the defacto master of all things relating to the subject?
I accept that Cain knows a lot about martial arts. I contend that Cain has never, and will never, fight someone with Wired Reflexes II, and that, as such, combat against superhumanly fast opponents lies outside of the realm of his personal experience. I believe that this is all Mr Lime wants Cain to admit, as it is specifically combat against superhumanly fast opponents that comprises the subject of this thread, and that is not something to Cain's real world experience really applies.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| I accept that Cain knows a lot about martial arts. I contend that Cain has never, and will never, fight someone with Wired Reflexes II, and that, as such, combat against superhumanly fast opponents lies outside of the realm of his personal experience. I believe that this is all Mr Lime wants Cain to admit, as it is specifically combat against superhumanly fast opponents that comprises the subject of this thread, and that is not something to Cain's real world experience really applies. |
This is exactly my point: a person moving at 5 times the speed a normal, unaugmented but highly trained human is capable of is far and away beyond the experience of anyone on this board. How this has escaped so many people thus far is beyond me. For fuck's sake, in the other thread, Bitbasher went so far as to claim that reloading a weapon in 0.6 seconds is not a reflection of speed.
Does Shadowrun do a good job of constructing an initiative system that remotely reflects realistic differences in speed between normal, unaugmented human beings? Absolutely not. It is built from the ground up to accomodate raction enhancement. Once you accept that this is just how Shadowrun is built, you can't keep claiming real world experience, because all your real world experience, at the very best, stops at 10 + 1d6, and that's probably being pretty generous.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Bitbasher went so far as to claim that reloading a weapon in 0.6 seconds is not a reflection of speed. |
It is not, in my mind, a physical impossibility to reload a weapon in 0.6 seconds simply through extremely fast and extremely accurate movement of sensory information through nerves. You don't need to be capable of moving any faster. Just like your running speed remains the same regardless of Init, your hands don't move any faster to reload the weapon. Your movements are so precise that you can nab the magazine, eject the old one and slam the new in without any loss of momentum.
For the martial arts discussion, it is a good thing to distinguish between reaction speed and overall physical speed. With really fast reactions, assuming you have the skills to go with it, you can, for example, react to the fact that someone is trying to block your strike by attempting to redirect your blow while underway. Regardless of how much wires you've got, the strike won't get there any faster.
I won't touch the actual debate on the matter, however, not with a 20-foot Dikoted Stun-Pole.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I won't touch the actual debate on the matter, however, not with a 20-foot Dikoted Stun-Pole. |
What if the pole also had an Ares Viper Slivergun attached and contained an ally spirit?
Note also that Reflexes (specifically Reaction) includes your ability to perceive what's going on around you hence the use of Intelligence (Shadowrun's Perception attribute) being used in its calculation.
When fighting someone augmented well above you, he's not only capable of doing more, but he's aware of what's going on while doing it. At best, you might be lucky to perform some evasive actions to block incoming attacks, but there's no way you should not only be able to see all of those attacks coming in, but also reacting to them. It's simply beyond your ability; you can only do so much regardless of your skill level... that's the entire point of Reaction, Initiative, and augmented Reflexes.
Likewise, it does include speed. Obviously not running speed, but since Quickness is used to measure your Reaction speed -- and it's a dynamic adjustment based upon your Quickness as well -- it obviously has something to do with it.
So yes, someone with Reaction 20 and Initiative 5D6 is performing at levels little Mr. Normal with Reaction 6 and Initiative 1D6 can't even dream of, let alone stand a chance against when it comes to their ability to land telling blows.
I have little problem with Mr. Normal initiating or using the melee equivalence of a Full Defense that carries on throughout an entire Combat Turn. But when it comes to performing actions that's going to leave your opponent in a bad way, he shouldn't be able to do much more beyond twice his normal action speed (hence what's becoming the popular house rule suggestion for allowing one counterattack per normal attack you have available). But after you hit a limit, that's it. You just can't react any faster than that.
Cain and BitBasher seem to prefer to just dismiss the notion of Reaction and Reflexes altogether, preferring to assume that they're just numbers that don't really mean anything. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They *do* mean something. Something significant. And I think it's that significant meaning that those who aren't happy with the rules as written are dissatisified with.
When fighting someone augmented well above you, he's not only capable of doing more, but he's aware of what's going on while doing it. At best, you might be lucky to perform some evasive actions to block incoming attacks, but there's no way you should not only be able to see all of those attacks coming in, but also reacting to them. It's simply beyond your ability; you can only do so much regardless of your skill level... that's the entire point of Reaction, Initiative, and augmented Reflexes.
Likewise, it does include speed. Obviously not running speed, but since Quickness is used to measure your Reaction speed -- and it's a dynamic adjustment based upon your Quickness as well -- it obviously has something to do with it.
So yes, someone with Reaction 20 and Initiative 5D6 is performing at levels little Mr. Normal with Reaction 6 and Initiative 1D6 can't even dream of, let alone stand a chance against when it comes to their ability to land telling blows.
I have little problem with Mr. Normal initiating or using the melee equivalence of a Full Defense that carries on throughout an entire Combat Turn. But when it comes to performing actions that's going to leave your opponent in a bad way, he shouldn't be able to do much more beyond twice his normal action speed (hence what's becoming the popular house rule suggestion for allowing one counterattack per normal attack you have available). But after you hit a limit, that's it. You just can't react any faster than that.
Cain and BitBasher seem to prefer to just dismiss the notion of Reaction and Reflexes altogether, preferring to assume that they're just numbers that don't really mean anything. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They *do* mean something. Something significant. And I think it's that significant meaning that those who aren't happy with the rules as written are dissatisified with.
| QUOTE |
| Bitbasher went so far as to claim that reloading a weapon in 0.6 seconds is not a reflection of speed. |
What AE said. 
That is not outside of the realm of a modern day person, it is extreme, but not impossible.
That is not outside of the realm of a modern day person, it is extreme, but not impossible.| QUOTE |
| Cain and BitBasher seem to prefer to just dismiss the notion of Reaction and Reflexes altogether, preferring to assume that they're just numbers that don't really mean anything. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They *do* mean something. Something significant. |
<spanish accent>
Those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
</spanish accent>
Those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
</spanish accent>
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ May 4 2004, 12:13 AM) | ||
What AE said. That is not outside of the realm of a modern day person, it is extreme, but not impossible. |
It's not, and I should point out I never said it was. I was just saying that you've got to be damn fast to do it, and I hold by that.
Anyway, hell, I think I linked to a video of a guy doing just that in an older thread to prove my point about skill benefitting speed, which is most certainly does. My point, however, is that the guy reloading in 0.6 seconds, in Shadowrun, is still a normal human being. He'll never be able to use skill to reload that quickly. It will always take him 3 or 1.5 seconds to reload. The only way he will ever be able to reload in .6 seconds is if he tears out his spine and replaces it with something more efficient. And that's my point: when you move at such speeds in Shadowrun, you only do so because you are far and away orders of magnitude faster than even the best of the best of us normals can dream of, and no amount of training will ever remedy this. The rules should reflect this instead of allowing a slow guy to kill a fast opponent far faster than he would be able to if the fast guy stood completely still in the way of oncoming attacks. This is absolutely wrong.
Can a real human being reload in 0.6 seconds? Yeah. It's been done. SR's combat mechanics are specifically designed to be dehumanizing. They're not made to allow normals to be different from eachother; they're made to show that people should do what they're built for, and if you aren't built for combat, you shouldn't get in it. The firearms rules make this absolutely clear. I see no reason that this shouldn't carry over in melee. Whether you like this dynamic or not has nothing to do with whether exceptionally inhuman speed should be applied as a benefit to melee.
Just a question. I was under the impression that once you were in melee combat, the only way you could do anything else besides a Melee roll in any of your turns (besides unGaeas'd magic of course) was to Break Melee, and suffer an automatic hit.
What are the rules, if any, for taking a simple action to fire a gun in your hand at an opponent in Melee? Or doing other 'mundane' things?
What are the rules, if any, for taking a simple action to fire a gun in your hand at an opponent in Melee? Or doing other 'mundane' things?
| QUOTE |
| When fighting someone augmented well above you, he's not only capable of doing more, but he's aware of what's going on while doing it. At best, you might be lucky to perform some evasive actions to block incoming attacks, but there's no way you should not only be able to see all of those attacks coming in, but also reacting to them. |
Why should I waste time looking at the incoming attacks? It's not that difficult to block the main lines of attack without trying. Why do you think people hold up their arms in a combat stance?
You refuse to tell me how experienced you are in various martial arts, so I'm going to try and use examples everyone's seen in the movies. The basic cat stance-- neko-ashi-dachi-- not only consists of footwork, but set arm positions. Those arm positions are set where they are for a reason-- because there's no way any single attack can come in without you being able to block it with more than three inches of movement on your part. (Combination attacks are a different matter, natch.) So, the other guy has to move his whole body several feet to hit you. You have to move one arm three inches to defend.
I don't have to be looking to know where the other guy's attacking. I can figure that out in a dozen different ways, six of which don't involve vision in the slightest. And I suck at that trick. If you're skilled, you don't waste time waiting for the other guy to attack before you defend-- you already have a defense in place before he moves.
| QUOTE |
| It's simply beyond your ability; you can only do so much regardless of your skill level... that's the entire point of Reaction, Initiative, and augmented Reflexes. |
In reality, speed is a result of skill, and not the other way around. If you're super-skilled, you can reload a gun inside of 0.6 seconds. If you're super fast but unskilled, you'll never pull it off, regardless of how fast you can move.
| QUOTE |
Likewise, it does include speed. Obviously not running speed, but since Quickness is used to measure your Reaction speed -- and it's a dynamic adjustment based upon your Quickness as well -- it obviously has something to do with it. |
Let me try this for an example. How familar are you with guns? I know hardly anything about them; but one thing I can do is empty a single-action revolver inside of three seconds. In less than three seconds, I can easily send six shots downrange with an old, single-action revolver; with a semiauto pistol, I can empty the clip in about a second or so. Granted, I'll be lucky to hit the back wall when firing like that; but I can easily do so. If I were a Shadowrun character, in theory I'd need an average initiative of 61 in order to do that trick.
Now, let's take a look at the RoF of firearms in Shadowrun. At first glance (and second and third) it looks like they've got this insanely slow Rate of Fire. I can get a ten-year-old child to fire shots many times faster than the rules allow. Does that mean said ten-year-old has superhumanly fast reflexes? (And unlike me, some of those ten-year-olds at NRA conventions *can* make every one of those aimed shots hit.)
Shadowrun slows things down for the sake of playability and sanity. In reality, people are capable of moving and acting many times faster than the rules allow. So, on the one hand, I have met people who can act as fast as the Shadowrun-equivalent of Wired 3. (Heck, if you use the RoF standard, all of us much have Wired.) I *have* met people who can turn four opponents into paste inside of three seconds, on "attack" and "defense". In real world terms, none of the tricks you describe are that unbelieveable.
| QUOTE | ||
This is exactly my point: a person moving at 5 times the speed a normal, unaugmented but highly trained human is capable of is far and away beyond the experience of anyone on this board. |
I don't know about superhumanly fast, at least in real-world terms. What I do know is this-- I'm an old man. You youngsters have an incredible advantage on me in terms of raw speed. As you get older, your nerve conduction velocity decreases. And I only test at about average on reaction time tests-- many of the kids I sparred with timed out at much, much faster than I can ever touch. They're much faster than me, in terms of reaction *and* quickness. And there are those instructors who I trained with, who I outquick and outreact on a regular basis. Compared to them, I'm superhuman; compared to me, the kids are superhuman.
So, why is my typical reaction to the instructors: "Could you do that slower? I couldn't see your hands move before they hit me the first six times"? Because they're more skilled, and are faster in effective speed. When the tables are reversed, and I get to be the crotechety old guy, I don't win through raw speed-- I win by being treacherous, and never attacking where they expect me to. People become surprised, react to the wrong things, and it *looks* like I just moved at superhuman speeds. But in reality, I didn't move all that fast.
Martial arts are similar to stage magic in that regard. It may look like the magician is moving incredibly fast; but in reality, he's not doing anything that quickly. He's just doing it so well that you think he *had* to move fast.
But, let's be fair and put this to numbers. A fast sammie, with wired-3, will have a reaction of at least 20 and 4d6 initiative. That gives him an average initiative score of 44 or so, which translates into instigating five melee attacks per three seconds. Which means, if he's skilled, he can take out five people inside of three seconds.
Well, that's not really that fast. I've done that in demos and katas, in fact. People who are much more skilled than I am can do that in reality. So, if you look at it that way, I *have* fought-- and beaten!-- people who can move equivalent speeds.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
I don't know about superhumanly fast, at least in real-world terms. What I do know is this-- I'm an old man. You youngsters have an incredible advantage on me in terms of raw speed. As you get older, your nerve conduction velocity decreases. And I only test at about average on reaction time tests-- many of the kids I sparred with timed out at much, much faster than I can ever touch. They're much faster than me, in terms of reaction *and* quickness. And there are those instructors who I trained with, who I outquick and outreact on a regular basis. Compared to them, I'm superhuman; compared to me, the kids are superhuman. |
In SR terms, those youngsters might have a reaction of 1 or 2 higher than you. Thats not significant, and definitely nothing even remotely on par with the difference between augmented and unaugmented reflexes.
| QUOTE |
| But, let's be fair and put this to numbers. A fast sammie, with wired-3, will have a reaction of at least 20 and 4d6 initiative. That gives him an average initiative score of 44 or so, which translates into instigating five melee attacks per three seconds. Which means, if he's skilled, he can take out five people inside of three seconds. |
No. It means that he can engage in five separate actions for *every* single equivalent action an unagumented person can take. It means he could attack five separate people five times in the same time they could each attack him once. It means that he can attack every single person around him, move, attack another completely different group of people, move, attack another completely different group of people, move, attack another completely different group of people, move, and attack yet another completely different group of people. - as long as everyone he attacks is within running distance from his original position. If he is skilled and has multiattack, every one of those people could be killed. All in three seconds. And that *is* fast. Superhumanly so, even.
I have to agree with Jason Here - each action isn't one attack. If you are fighting five people, there are rules that allow you to attack each and every one of those five people on one action. It's damn difficult in shadowrun to do so and succeed, but that's beside the point.
In shadowrun some people are immensely faster than others - some rules take that into account, others don't.
To take an overly exagerated example - Troll Cyberzombie Joe is fighting Human Mundane Lee. Assume Lee cannot damage Joe with anything short of an incredible attack roll (to get enough power to penetrate Joe's immense armor.
Joe gets an initiative of 51, Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Lee attacks, Joe counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
If Lee is fighting three Joe's, he can effectively inflict damage on each of them 6 times a second.
If Lee is fighting another Lee, he can effectively inflict damage twice in three seconds.
If Lee stands in the street, and 30 Joe's run past just next to him, Lee gets a free melee attack against each Joe moving within a meter of him. This means he can effectively inflict damage 10 times a seond - 20 if each Joe also turns around and charges him.
This means that if you are standing in the middle of a crowd of thirty people running past you one by one, you could in theory attack 30 people per combat turn with an initiative of 2(!), and thus a Quickness of 1 and an Intelligence of 1. That's 10 different people each second. And he still has the ability to quick draw an SMG hanging from a sling and shoot 10 rounds cover fire into that group.
Are any of these examples realistic? No.
Are the shadowrun melee rules fully realistic? No.
Can we therefore apply what people can and can't do in reality? The answer should be obvious.
If Lee is pummeled by Joe as in my first example, the simple fact that he is defending against against 6 times as many attacks as if he was fighting an equally fast opponent should make a difference. In shadowrun it does not. With the suggested 'speed rules' it would look like this:
Joe gets an initiative of 51, Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with a +1 TN.
Lee attacks with a +1 TN, Joe counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +2 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +3 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +4 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +4 TN.
This seems more sensible to me.
Another option is having Joe attacked by five Lees:
Joe gets initiative of 51, each Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, with +4 TN, Lee counters with -3(because of Joe's reach).
5 Lee's attack, Joe counters each of them with +3 TN.
Joe attacks, with +3 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, with a +2 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, with a +1 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with -3.
Canon rules:
Joe attacks, with +4 TN, Lee counters with -3(because of Joe's reach).
5 Lee's attack, Joe counters each of them with +4 TN.
Joe decides to not attack anymore, because he'd only get beaten, and the Lee's just stand around and look at him while he slowly takes out a gun, ejects the clip, and checks it (2 nd action), puts the clip back in again, readies the gun (3rd action), shoots two of the Lees (4th action), shoots two more Lees (5th action) and stands before the last, slightly panicked, Lee who doesn't even have the chance to start running away while Joe carefully aims at his head (6th action)
Next Initiative, Lee stands as paralysed while Lee keeps aiming, and then puts a bullet in Lee's forehead.
Yet had Joe attacked, each Lee would have had the chance to hurt him, instead of starting at the barrel of his gun two inches from each of their faces in turn...
In shadowrun some people are immensely faster than others - some rules take that into account, others don't.
To take an overly exagerated example - Troll Cyberzombie Joe is fighting Human Mundane Lee. Assume Lee cannot damage Joe with anything short of an incredible attack roll (to get enough power to penetrate Joe's immense armor.
Joe gets an initiative of 51, Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Lee attacks, Joe counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters.
If Lee is fighting three Joe's, he can effectively inflict damage on each of them 6 times a second.
If Lee is fighting another Lee, he can effectively inflict damage twice in three seconds.
If Lee stands in the street, and 30 Joe's run past just next to him, Lee gets a free melee attack against each Joe moving within a meter of him. This means he can effectively inflict damage 10 times a seond - 20 if each Joe also turns around and charges him.
This means that if you are standing in the middle of a crowd of thirty people running past you one by one, you could in theory attack 30 people per combat turn with an initiative of 2(!), and thus a Quickness of 1 and an Intelligence of 1. That's 10 different people each second. And he still has the ability to quick draw an SMG hanging from a sling and shoot 10 rounds cover fire into that group.
Are any of these examples realistic? No.
Are the shadowrun melee rules fully realistic? No.
Can we therefore apply what people can and can't do in reality? The answer should be obvious.
If Lee is pummeled by Joe as in my first example, the simple fact that he is defending against against 6 times as many attacks as if he was fighting an equally fast opponent should make a difference. In shadowrun it does not. With the suggested 'speed rules' it would look like this:
Joe gets an initiative of 51, Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, Lee counters.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with a +1 TN.
Lee attacks with a +1 TN, Joe counters.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +2 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +3 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +4 TN.
Joe Attacks, Lee counters with a +4 TN.
This seems more sensible to me.
Another option is having Joe attacked by five Lees:
Joe gets initiative of 51, each Lee gets an Initiative of 7.
Joe attacks, with +4 TN, Lee counters with -3(because of Joe's reach).
5 Lee's attack, Joe counters each of them with +3 TN.
Joe attacks, with +3 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, with a +2 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, with a +1 TN, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with -3.
Joe attacks, Lee counters with -3.
Canon rules:
Joe attacks, with +4 TN, Lee counters with -3(because of Joe's reach).
5 Lee's attack, Joe counters each of them with +4 TN.
Joe decides to not attack anymore, because he'd only get beaten, and the Lee's just stand around and look at him while he slowly takes out a gun, ejects the clip, and checks it (2 nd action), puts the clip back in again, readies the gun (3rd action), shoots two of the Lees (4th action), shoots two more Lees (5th action) and stands before the last, slightly panicked, Lee who doesn't even have the chance to start running away while Joe carefully aims at his head (6th action)
Next Initiative, Lee stands as paralysed while Lee keeps aiming, and then puts a bullet in Lee's forehead.
Yet had Joe attacked, each Lee would have had the chance to hurt him, instead of starting at the barrel of his gun two inches from each of their faces in turn...
Again not commenting on the actual topic... But Joe would never get more than 1 attack on Lee before Lee gets to attack Joe, even if he's got Init 200 and MBW-4. Unless you're using some really weird Initiative rules.
skill, in something like martial arts, means trained reflex. a reflex is going to be faster than a conscious action every time, even if your nerves are made of artificially-thickened molasses. high skill-low init can beat low skill-high init because high skill does his thing as a reflex, and low skill has to stop and think about what he's seeing, decide what to do about it, then get his body to follow his plan. should that process be easier for someone with an init higher than their IQ? yes, which is reflected by the fact that high init guys get to use maneuvers more often, and win ties more often. in the end, though, high init is no match for high skill.
| QUOTE |
| high skill-low init can beat low skill-high init because high skill does his thing as a reflex, and low skill has to stop and think about what he's seeing, decide what to do about it, then get his body to follow his plan. |
Agreed.
| QUOTE |
| in the end, though, high init is no match for high skill. |
Also agreed, but what Arethusa, A Clockwork Lime, and others have mentioned situations where skill levels are close.
snowRaven also gave an example of how space and time sort of break down in melee combat as well. I don't think the canon rule needs to be re-written, but I'm still very interested in what kind of house rules they come up with.
snowRaven also gave an example of how space and time sort of break down in melee combat as well. I don't think the canon rule needs to be re-written, but I'm still very interested in what kind of house rules they come up with.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) | ||
What if the pole also had an Ares Viper Slivergun attached and contained an ally spirit? |
Then you could have sex with it.
| QUOTE |
| You youngsters have an incredible advantage on me in terms of raw speed. As you get older, your nerve conduction velocity decreases. And I only test at about average on reaction time tests-- many of the kids I sparred with timed out at much, much faster than I can ever touch. |
I would like to slightly correct this. Nerve conduction velocity is not a significant factor in this. As age increases, reflex speed does not significantly change. Reaction time is what increases. This is more an effect of the way older brains are wired together, compared to younger brains, with a small electrochemical synaptic effect. The end result is that older people make decisions more slowly, but they make better decisions. In this example, an older martial artist will not be able to react as quickly, but when he does it will be a far more effective move. If, however, you take an old man and tell him to push a button when a light goes on, he will be just as fast as a kid; there is no reaction, just reflex. (quickness test instead of reaction) If you tell him to hit the red button for the red light and the blue button for the blue light, he will be slower since there is a decision involved (reaction test)
Same here, EK. I like the rule as is, where skill trumps speed big-time. But a part of me loves all crunchy bits of game systems. The challenge for this thread is to define how to give speed freaks that edge they so deperately want, without breaking the system too badly, or making high skills worthless.
With this in mind, let's do a quick summary: Melee combat:
Initiative boosts give:
The speedy folks want more successes due to their blinding reflexes. At least they are tired of getting beat up by folks who are better than them.
The arguments for them getting beat up are simple: If your opponent is better than you, he instinctively can react when you leave yourself wide open.
The arguments for them no getting beat up are simple too: If you are significantly faster, you should be able to overwhelm your opponent, because eventually he won't be able to keep up with your motions.
Lets follow this reasoning: Three approaches are available for modifying the ratio of successes: changing the number of dice available, changing the TNs, and changing the ability to have two sides in a fight.
Changing TNs is drastic and dangerous to game balance, so I'd like to avoid that.
Denying somebody the ability to react at all is unfair to the mundane guy who's spent 30 years perfect his Art. He _should_ get the opportunity to let his fast, unskilled opponent smash his face repeatedly into his fist and foot.
So how about this? Speed's biggest advantage is more actions. So let's make the speed-freaks advantage directly come from this surplus of actions. Even better, let's tie his advantage directly to how much of a surplus he has. How?
Potential House Rule: A melee combatant gains 1 extra die on his attack action for every attack taken since his opponent has been out of actions in this combat turn.
So we have 2 guys fighting: slow-poke Bruce Lee with one action and skill 6, and speedy Ed Gruberman with 3 actions and skill 5.
Combat turn sequence: (I'll leave combat pool out, as both could use it up fast)
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5 dice vs 6 dice. Probably Ed gets beat. Soak it.
Bruce attacks: 6 dice vs 5 dice. Probably Ed gets beat. Soak it again.
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5+1 dice (cause Bruce is out of actions) vs 6 dice. Odds are for a tie, but ties go to Ed.
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5+2 dice (cause Bruce is still out of actions) vs 6 dice. Go Ed!
And there we have it: Speed is a slight advantage, but not overwhelming, and of primary use when skill levels are close.
What'ya think? I visualize this as the speedier guy getting blocked and countered by his more-skilled opponent the first few times, but eventually his opponent is unable to keep up with his lightning-fast moves. I probably won't use it myself, as folks in my games have plenty of reasons to pick up wires already, but I think it should be fairly reasonable.
With this in mind, let's do a quick summary: Melee combat:
- Is a complex action
- Uses opposed tests vs TN 4+
- Is modified by reach
- Is 'won' by the person with the most successes.
Initiative boosts give:
- More complex actions
The speedy folks want more successes due to their blinding reflexes. At least they are tired of getting beat up by folks who are better than them.
The arguments for them getting beat up are simple: If your opponent is better than you, he instinctively can react when you leave yourself wide open.
The arguments for them no getting beat up are simple too: If you are significantly faster, you should be able to overwhelm your opponent, because eventually he won't be able to keep up with your motions.
Lets follow this reasoning: Three approaches are available for modifying the ratio of successes: changing the number of dice available, changing the TNs, and changing the ability to have two sides in a fight.
Changing TNs is drastic and dangerous to game balance, so I'd like to avoid that.
Denying somebody the ability to react at all is unfair to the mundane guy who's spent 30 years perfect his Art. He _should_ get the opportunity to let his fast, unskilled opponent smash his face repeatedly into his fist and foot.
So how about this? Speed's biggest advantage is more actions. So let's make the speed-freaks advantage directly come from this surplus of actions. Even better, let's tie his advantage directly to how much of a surplus he has. How?
Potential House Rule: A melee combatant gains 1 extra die on his attack action for every attack taken since his opponent has been out of actions in this combat turn.
So we have 2 guys fighting: slow-poke Bruce Lee with one action and skill 6, and speedy Ed Gruberman with 3 actions and skill 5.
Combat turn sequence: (I'll leave combat pool out, as both could use it up fast)
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5 dice vs 6 dice. Probably Ed gets beat. Soak it.
Bruce attacks: 6 dice vs 5 dice. Probably Ed gets beat. Soak it again.
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5+1 dice (cause Bruce is out of actions) vs 6 dice. Odds are for a tie, but ties go to Ed.
Ed Gruberman attacks: 5+2 dice (cause Bruce is still out of actions) vs 6 dice. Go Ed!
And there we have it: Speed is a slight advantage, but not overwhelming, and of primary use when skill levels are close.
What'ya think? I visualize this as the speedier guy getting blocked and countered by his more-skilled opponent the first few times, but eventually his opponent is unable to keep up with his lightning-fast moves. I probably won't use it myself, as folks in my games have plenty of reasons to pick up wires already, but I think it should be fairly reasonable.
Lantzer - I personally like it. It's intuitive, simple to apply, and doesn't overwhelm the need for skill as opposed to speed. My take is that speed already gives you tons of advantages, so you don't really even need more. But for people who think hi-speed crackfiends should get some advantage over motherf**kin' ninja masters, those rules are definitely fair.
My 2c: I think that higher initiative means you move faster, personally, not that you react faster (that's a side-benefit). However, if A has 4 turns and B has 2 turns, A is only taking half as long to do their actions. It's already been stated (and I believe) that counterattacking takes much less time and effort than attacking. So even if A is twice as fast, it only takes half the effort for B to counter, so why shouldn't he be able to counterattack? Obviously this goes out the window when you've got something like 7 turns to 1, but I don't think any game I play in is designed to let Initiative 60+ exist.
My 2c: I think that higher initiative means you move faster, personally, not that you react faster (that's a side-benefit). However, if A has 4 turns and B has 2 turns, A is only taking half as long to do their actions. It's already been stated (and I believe) that counterattacking takes much less time and effort than attacking. So even if A is twice as fast, it only takes half the effort for B to counter, so why shouldn't he be able to counterattack? Obviously this goes out the window when you've got something like 7 turns to 1, but I don't think any game I play in is designed to let Initiative 60+ exist.
| QUOTE |
| The speedy folks want more successes due to their blinding reflexes. At least they are tired of getting beat up by folks who are better than them. |
See, that's not what the debate is about at all. It's what several people (mostly those who are content with the current rules) keep clutching on to, but it's not. Especially since the chances are high that if you do have outrageous reflexes, you're a combat junkie as well and are likely to be the "master" in most combat situations.
It's a logical problem. Logically, there's no way a normal person can have the superhuman reflexes of an augmented person. It's exactly the same as saying that because a guy with Strength 3 is arm wrestling a troll with Muscle Replacement 4 and a Suprathyroid Gland, you should gain the troll's superhuman Strength for the duration of that opposed test. It's a ludicrous notion.
Reflexes -- Reaction and Initiative -- are core attributes of a character. They're a measure of how much that character can perform in the span of a three seconds. Saying that they gain OTHER character's augmentations in that time JUST because they're fighting them is beyond silly. Skill level doesn't matter at all here, just like the Arm Wrestling skill level of the human and troll above matter there. In both scenarios, the lesser character is gaining all the advantages the superior character has for no other reason than "just because."
We've been using the counterattack house rules mentioned way back in this thread and the other related thread for quite a while and it's worked really well. No significant suspension of disbelief required; far less than the current rules, that's for sure. A defending character can still only perform a limited number of counterattacks before they just can't keep up, at which point they're limited to just desperately trying to hold off the flurry of incoming attacks. *That* is far more believable in my opinion. Under these rules, a "master" is still going to have no trouble taking down some snot-nosed punk since the not-nosed punk -- augmented or not -- is never going to succeed at landing a blow unless he gets phenomenally lucky. It'll just take an unaugmented "master" longer to do it -- which is EXACTLY how it should be. What, with him being UNaugmented and everything.
Of course, we also got rid of the whole "ties go to the attacker" rule, too. Under the current rules, it's impossible for two dueling opponents to NOT damage the other side (Damage Resistant Tests not counting, as that's simply them absorbing the damage). Two equally skilled opponents should be able to hold off against each other for quite a while without landing a telling blow either way, at least for a cinematic game like Shadowrun. Never did understand why they handled ties like that for melee in the first place.
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