Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Rule changes from 2nd to 3rd that didn't take
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
booklord
When I switched from 2nd to 3rd Edition years ago some of the ol rules stuck. We voted on which rules we'd take and which ones we'd keep. I'll give an example of a rule that didn't take.

The astral damage table in shadowrun 2nd Edition was :

Unarmed Astral : (Charisma) L
Weapon Foci : (Charisma + Force/2) M
Dual nature : As physical damage
Spirit : ( force ) M
Barrier : ( force ) L

The astral damage table in shadowrun 3rd Edition is :

Unarmed Astral : ( Charisma ) M
Weapon Foci : ( Charisma ) + weapon type
Dual Nature : As physical damage
Spirit : ( force ) M
Barrier : ( force ) M

Well, that didn't sit well with the team mage. He had spent a lot of time bonding with his weapon foci dagger which had suddenly become less affective then just fighting unarmed. The physical adept likewise felt cheated. Personally I felt that a Force 2 weapon foci dagger should do as much damage as a Force 2 weapon foci polearm. ( Polearm still gets a reach bonus ) So we kept the old table.


Anyone else keep any rules from 2nd Edition when they switched from 3rd Edition?
Herald of Verjigorm
Skill web.
broho_pcp
Skill Web = Booh-Yeah!!!
Arethusa
Skill web?
A Clockwork Lime
Skill Web = Defaulting on Crack. You could default from Heavy Weapons to Biotech and from there to Corporate Etiquette if you really wanted to, but each skill you take on the path from one to the other added +1 to the TN. Basically, it was a table you had to reference regularly in order to default. 3rd Edition's system is much simpler and doesn't require much referencing once you get the basics down.
Connor
We kept the FoF strength recoil mods over the ones in CC.
Arethusa
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
Skill Web = Defaulting on Crack. You could default from Heavy Weapons to Biotech and from there to Corporate Etiquette if you really wanted to, but each skill you take on the path from one to the other added +1 to the TN. Basically, it was a table you had to reference regularly in order to default. 3rd Edition's system is much simpler and doesn't require much referencing once you get the basics down.

Yipe. That sounds absolutely insane.

QUOTE (Connor)
We kept the FoF strength recoil mods over the ones in CC.

I'm not familiar with 2nd Edition at all, really (in case that wasn't already obvious); any chance you could post a copy?
Connor
Unfortunately most of my books are still packed up. I just moved not too long ago and I haven't unpacked most of that stuff yet.

Basically the FoF strength recoil mods are more generous than the ones in CC. So you get more recoil comp for a similar strength. Someone else around here my have a copy of FoF handy and can post up the table...
Catsnightmare
Just let me get my copy out of the scanner here, as soon as this gun is scanned...

Strength = Recoil reduction
1-4 = 0
5-6 = -1
7-8 = -2
9-10 = -3
11-12 = -4
LoseAsDirected
Man, I completely forgot about the skill web..

I never really liked that they changed so many spells.. I miss my Hellblast spell..
Connor
Thanks for posting that up Cats.

I also miss the Hellblast spell, and so did all the guys that played mages during the switch..heh. Although we never bothered to bring it back. I think for the most part we were happy or fine with tha changes and didn't see much reason to keep the older material around except in a few rare cases. But it's been so long now I don't really know if I can name anything else at the moment.
A Clockwork Lime
Wasn't Hellblast just a Deadly Fireball with no variation?
Connor
ACL, it's been so long, I'm incilned to think you're right. Perhaps that's why we never bothered to do anything with it. I didn't do a lot of magic stuff in 2nd Edition and not until we were well into the 3rd Ed. conversion...
L.D
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime @ May 4 2004, 02:13 AM)
Skill Web = Defaulting on Crack.  You could default from Heavy Weapons to Biotech and from there to Corporate Etiquette if you really wanted to, but each skill you take on the path from one to the other added +1 to the TN.  Basically, it was a table you had to reference regularly in order to default.  3rd Edition's system is much simpler and doesn't require much referencing once you get the basics down.

Yipe. That sounds absolutely insane.

That was actually a "slight" exageration, but I could default from Military Theory to Ettiquette. Or from Gunnery B/R to Armed Combat.

Here's an example of the 2:nd edition skill web. You can move from one skill to any other skill as long as you don't pass an arrow in the "wrong way". You can't go from Armed Combat to Stealth, but you can go the other way around. Each dot passed gives you +2TN. Actually, you can move from Armed Combat to Stealth, but that would require you to pass Armed Combat B/R, Firearms B/R, Firearms and then you're home free! Although you'd have a TN modifier of +14.

I remeber one time when a troll with 15 in strength and one of those great big axes with +2 in reach used his strenght instead of Armed Combat. It was insane!
Rock-Steady
We still use the 2nd Ed Attribute Karma Costs.
Abstruse
There were big dots and little dots too...big dots were +2TN and little dots were +1TN I believe...it may have been +4 and +2, or they were half-dots or something...but you could roll your Magical Theory or your Enchanting skill for your Sorcery or Conjuring nyahnyah.gif

The Abstruse One
L.D
I conjure a city spirit using... Aura Reading! biggrin.gif

It was +2, except if you where using a concentration/specialization. I tried to understand how to use the +1 thingy (it's in SRC), but it gave me a headache.
Namergon
QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
Wasn't Hellblast just a Deadly Fireball with no variation?

It was also a combat spell, whereas in 3rd edition, elemantal effects are only in manipulation spells.
snowRaven
New Hellblast Spell:
Elemental manipulation, Area effect, Physical, Instant, Fire Elemental Effect, Blast Elemental Effect - final drain of +1(Damage level+3) (Cast it at Deadly for +7D drain, or at Light for +1D drain...).

For real nasty effect, add the Extended Area modifier as well, and you have a +9D ranged elemental manipulation doing deadly damage with fire and blast effects, that targets an area with Magic x 10 meter radius.

(For cool effect and more nastiness, you might want to add Smoke elemental effects too - merely an additional +2 drain power. No sweat.)

Nothing like it! grinbig.gif
phaedrus
I never played 2nd ed, but I've been told there were different rules for initiative passes - that being super fast didn't just mean you went first, but it meant you went more than once before the non-super quick characters? Is that right? Why did they change it? (Please, if this is going to start some kind of flame over reaction/speed of movement then I'll just take the question back and you can all pretend I didn't ask...)
Cray74
Initiative. My group sticks to SR2 initiative.

SR3 went a long way to giving slower characters a better chance to act early in combat, rather than letting high initiative characters dominate combat. SR3 is much fairer system.

However, I don't believe combat should be fair (at least in that fashion). Hence, I stick to SR2 initiative.
Abstruse
SR2 Initiative went like this: Roll your initiative. Start with the highest number. That person acts, then subtracts 10 from their number. Repeat. So your Street Sam rolls his 12 + 4d6 and gets a 39, and your combat decker rolls his 6 + 1d6 and gets a 7. That means the sam's going to use EVERY ONE of his actions before the decker gets a single shot off. Makes gettign those reflex boosters much more important.

The Abstruse One
phaedrus
So is it common to keep the SR2 rules on initiative? Makes more sense to me - if someone is that much faster than you, why should you get to go after they've had only one of their four actions... Those who have spent the essence, nuyen and effort to be super fast should get the benefit. Otherwise my arthritic grandma still gets to fire her shotgun immediately after the super-wired street sam who just grabbed her purse.
northern lights
i totally prefer the 2nd edition init spirit. the sammie was lightning for a reason, he needed to get that mage down and fast. now you have a character rolling 5d6+14 and you're toast cause everyone else gets their shot in on you. okay so you're double everyone else, well that sucks. you take out one dude you're first init pass then all 5 remaining guys gun you down one l or m at a time. the only thing in 3rd that follows this spirit is the required extra actions for move by wire.

makes a fast physad useless unless he can soak 5 hits.
Abstruse
It does make more logical sense that way, but the other way no one other than a speed freak cyberzombie or initiated adept would stand a chance in combat. It was an attempt to solve that particular problem without letting those who spend all that nuyen/karma/essence/power points to become super-fast lose the advantages of that. Personally, I go with a 3rd Ed just because I don't like my PCs dying and I don't like pulling punches either.

The Abstruse One
L.D
In my opinion it's more fun for the players using th 3:rd edition rules. Or rather... more fun for everyone but the sammie.
Austere Emancipator
The 2nd Ed way of doing Init does not make any more sense, nor is it any more realistic. 3 second Combat Turn, and the absolute maximum reflex advantage you can get over a mundane human is around 0.3-0.6 seconds. A wired person would not get to do 3/4ths of his actions before the unmodified person does anything.

In a standard stand-up shoot-out, the wired guy with 3 actions might start shooting at 0.05 seconds, 2nd shot at 0.55, 3rd at 1.05, 4th at 1.55, 2.05 and 2.55. The unmodified person might fire his gun at 1.00 and 2.50. Letting the wired guy act all or even most of his actions before the unmodifed guy gets to do anything is not logical or reasonable or realistic or anything.

You're still free to use whatever rules you prefer. But don't kid yourself about why you use them: It has nothing to do with sense, you just like them more.
booklord
Yes, it used to be that you'd just start with the highest initiative number and work your way down. The effect was that a high reaction samurai could take out half a gang of unaugmented orks before a single ork could raise his gun. It was unbalancing but as a GM I made liberal use of delayed actions to compensate.

---------- The sad, cautionary tale of Vinnie the troll
"You turn the corner, and see half a dozen security guards, all weapons pointed at you."
(I ignore surprise since the security guards knew he was coming, and Vinnie could easily best any surprise roll)
"I shoot them with my Vindicator mini-gun"
(Initiative is rolled)
"All right, they all go first since they all have delayed actions."
"What? How'd they know I was coming around that corner?"
(Truth, the guards were radioed by the security command center that he was heading their way. But I decide to rub it in.)
"Bud, you're a big ass troll waering heavy armor with a vindicator mini-gun, and a panther cannon, carrying what must be 50 pounds of ammo. There is a deaf janitor 3 floors up who felt the vibrations of you running down that hallway"
(The guards hit Vinnie with multiple sub-machine gun bursts managing to inflict enough light physical and stun wounds (Truama Dampner) that the subsequent combat turns got very bloody.)

Anyway initiative phases were hard to swallow. And since 3rd edition came out I've played it both ways. Just straight counting down of initiative is a little easier and it gives high reaction characters a serious boost. Inititative phases from 3rd edition a little more confusing but it evens out the playing field. Personally I prefer the old system (using examples as above to handle players who get too cocky) but I know some people who are unflinching supporters of the new system.

It also helps that characters in my games rarely max out their reaction with cyberware / bioware. The top-of-the-line delta grade wired reflexes and move-by-wire systems are beyond the means of most characters and above the means of most corps with the exception of a few superhuman NPC heavy hitters for special occassions.
mfb
i'd have to disagree, aus. realistically, the fast guy might not do all of his actions before the slower guys, but he'll certainly won't do most of them after.

i can't say which i like more. acting first several times is awesome, but it's also nice to act after everyone else has used up all their cp. in a perfect world, i'd use the reverse init system--i think cain invented it, or at least posted it first--but that's not going to work in online play.
northern lights
poor vinnie

but you do need appropriate situational modifiers to bring the players back from exploiting the rules too much.

what's this reverse initiative??? got a link?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (mfb)
realistically, the fast guy might not do all of his actions before the slower guys, but he'll certainly won't do most of them after.

He'll do them just as much before as he'll do after. Neither of the two systems is realistic or reasonable or logical. You would not manage that unless you went 0.3 seconds at a time and called that a Combat Turn. But you won't get the system any more R, R or L simply by shifting the point in which the low-init guy suddenly has a burst of speed and does all his actions.

Realistically, the slow guy should initiate his movement slightly after the fast guy, and then his action should be slowly spread over the whole CT, while the fast guy performs several actions. I personally prefer a system where the slow guy can fire a gun for the first time only slightly after fast guy, because that's realistic. It is not realistic that the low guy can then do all of the other stuff before the fast guy can do anything more.

Neither is it realistic that a fast guy would manage to fire a gun 6 times before the slow guy can depress the trigger once. It is, on the other hand, quite realistic that the fast guy would manage more than 2 shots before the slow guy can manage two.

Both have their ups and downs and I prefer one where the stress is on the initiation of an action, not on when the action should end. It's a nice bonus that it balances combat.
A Clockwork Lime
The new initiative system was mostly a game play change than one for realism OR fairness. Whether or not you prefer to see the fast characters performing time and time again ahead of everyone else, the one thing it was was boring for everyone who wasn't augmented. They had to sit there and wait, twiddling their thumbs while the one or two players with obscene Initiative rolls did everything. It effectively pushed everyone else to the backseat and only let them do something outside of a combat or any other turn-intensive scenario.

The new system eliminates that somewhat. Everyone gets a shot to do something -- even if it's not combat related -- before the tediousness sets in. While not a complete solution, it does help. Everyone gets to do something and they get to be a part of the scenario.

Overall, I think it was a major improvement. One thing a lot of people around here seem to ignore is that Shadowrun is a game and that it is supposed to be fun to play. Sitting on your ass everytime some major situation crops up = not fun.
Mordrid Soud
As a player I miss the seperate essence and bio indexes. In 2nd ed, your bio index was based on your bod score (which makes sense when you think about it). Alot of troll sams running around those days smile.gif . The third edition rules on it are much more balanced, and as a stingy tight ass gm I like the 3rd edition rules better. Still, it was fun running around with 5.9 essence worth of cyber, and 10 points worth bioware. I do miss the origonal vehicle combat rules with that damn manuever score from 2nd ed as well. Anyone use the manuever scores?
Moon-Hawk
I agree that 3rd edition initiative works well, but I would consider using 2nd in a very small or solo campaign with a lot of combat, 'cause in that case it would be really fun for the PC to kill half a dozen gangers before they can act. In normal play, though, I think 3rd gives better gameplay. If you really want a super-fast scary guy to get lots more actions before others can go, use move-by-wire.
Austere Emancipator
Move-By-Wire doesn't let anybody have more than 1 action before everybody else goes. The extra actions come at the very end of the Initiative Pass.
Moon-Hawk
Very true, but at least they come at the end of the first (or second phase) instead of just stacking up at the end of the round when everyone is finished.
Me
You
Me
Me
You
Me
Me
You
Me
Is still better than:
Me
You
Me
You
Me
You
Me
Me
Me
At least from a certain perspective.
Shockwave_IIc
This is why i like the SLA industries iniative system.

If i was to convert to Sr it would go something like this

Wired Sam one has say 5 actions, Physad has 3, mage has 2, Mom and pop both have 1 each. [EDIT](all this after rollong iniative the SR way)[/EDIT]

You have 5 phase's (tag additionals on to either end starting at the end first)
Sam goes on 1,2,3,4,5
Physad on 1,-,3,-,5
Mage on -,2,-,4,-
Mom and pop -,-,3,-,-
if multiple people go on the same phase work out who goes first as per normal SR rules.

Thus actual action wise it would look like this
Sam
Physad
Sam
Mage
Sam
Physad
Mom and Pop
Sam
Mage
Sam
Physad
TinkerGnome
Sounds like the way the HERO system does it, except that they do 12 second turns and each phase is 1 second long.

Which certainly does make actions a little more realisticly timed.
Shockwave_IIc
From what i remember of the HERO system yeah quite close.
I Eat Time
This particular system only works for two people, but it's got an idea that maybe could be extended to full-on combat if we think hard (or anyone else considers it).

Sam rolls a 42. Security Guard rolls a 18. Sam gets 5 actions, and the Security Guard gets 2. The pass goes
Sam
Guard
Sam
Guard

However, since Sam has 3 more actions than the Guard, he can choose at any time after the first initiative pass to insert those actions, but never more than two (maybe one) extra turn per action. That way, there's a set order, but faster characters get the benefit of Emergency Actions that let them go twice before a slower character goes if they want.

Thoughts? Tweakings?
Moon-Hawk
[edit] in reference to Shockwave:
I like that a lot. It's a bit more calculations, but it's definitely the most "realistic". There's a slight hiccup when injury in the middle of a combat turn causes you to loose an action, but it's not a terrible one, and not really a problem. Just leave their action in the phase where it was originally intended (at the slightly lower score, of course), and their last action ends up not happening as they subtract past zero. They act in different phases than if they'd started with the lower score, but like I said, not really a problem.
MBW does not require any revision in this system, either.
I'm going to have to seriously consider using that.
How would a character with 4 actions fit into that?
Shockwave_IIc
4 Actions 1,2,-,4,5
6 Actions 1,2,3,4,5,6
7 Actions 0,1,2,3,4,5,6

Wounds as you said, subtract as normal, if they lose an action they lose the last one they would of had.
With MBW i'd be just go with extra actions tag on the end (see 6/7 above) cos thats how they do it in SLA.
Moon-Hawk
I think that's a wonderful compromise between 2nd and 3rd ed. init. I'm definitely going to have to try that out.
Lantzer
Players around here are ambivalent about one change in particular:

Grounding spells.

Some folks miss it, while others never liked it. Usually had to do with how many foci
they liked to wear.

I personally thought it was a nifty way to keep foci and locked spells under control.
Nowadays wards have to do that job.

Moon-Hawk
I liked grounding. *shrug* Confused the heck out of me when it disappeared.
shadd4d
I liked it. It was an interesting rule and good control factor, if someone played a mage or had lots of foci. I ended up having to provide an NPC mage, as everyone fell in love with cyber or adepts or riggers or the Matrix. Odd how things work out, eh?

Don
Cray74
QUOTE (L.D)
In my opinion it's more fun for the players using th 3:rd edition rules. Or rather... more fun for everyone but the sammie.

Yeah, I know. A lot of players who seem to build slow "interesting" characters rather than speed-optimized combat freaks ironically went looking for fun in combat, even though they weren't suited for it. I encourage them to look for fun elsewhere in the game [1] and let the speed freaks have their minutes in the spotlight.

[1] Or apply more thought to combat. A slow character that jumps into face-to-face battle beside a highly wired samurai should expect to be disappointed. A slow character that decides to attack in a manner before the samurai can even begin plinking/hacking/kicking can easily dominate the fight. The sniper is the classic example; drone riggers with low VCRs and elemental-commanding mages are others.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
In a standard stand-up shoot-out, the wired guy with 3 actions might start shooting at 0.05 seconds, 2nd shot at 0.55, 3rd at 1.05, 4th at 1.55, 2.05 and 2.55. The unmodified person might fire his gun at 1.00 and 2.50. Letting the wired guy act all or even most of his actions before the unmodifed guy gets to do anything is not logical or reasonable or realistic or anything.


D'oh. Redface edit. I need to read a leetle more carefully before I shoot my mouth off.

I do rather like the way you spread out the actions. That's probably about what I'd try to mimic with a set of house initiative rules, like Tinkergnome's posting of the HERO action chart.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Cray74)
But to say SR2's was completely and always unreasonabe, illogical, and unrealistic is false.

That's why I didn't say so. What I said was that it isn't any more reasonable, logical or realistic than the SR3 way of doing initiative. In both cases, the slower guy does his actions seemingly as fast as the fast guy at some predetermined point in the CT, which just doesn't make sense. But that's what you're stuck with, because a P&P RPG just can't handle any other way of doing Initiative.

You can keep making the problem smaller by reducing the amount of time you consider to be a single Combat Turn, but that keeps making the system more complex and time-consuming, and the problem still never truly goes away.
TinkerGnome
A modified version of the HERO speed chart for SR (assuming 6 segments, or 1 segment per .5 seconds). A is the number of actions and Segment is the .5 second segment where you get to act.
CODE

      Segment
A  1  2  3  4  5  6
1  -  -  -  x  -  -
2  -  -  x  -  -  x
3  -  x  -  x  -  x
4  -  x  x  -  x  x
5  -  x  x  x  x  x
6  x  x  x  x  x  x

To actually use this system, initiative scores would become less important to an extent. Everyone would act according to the number of actions they have and the chart. If two characters are tied during one segment, they then act in order of initiative.

So, let's take three characters, Slow, Medium, and Fast. Slow has an initiative of 8, Medium has an initiative of 22, and Fast has an initiative of 46.

During combat, they would act as follows:

Segment 1
none
Segment 2
Fast
Medium
Segment 3
Fast
Segment 4
Fast
Medium
Slow
Segment 5
Fast
Segment 6
Fast
Medium
Cray74
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That's why I didn't say so.

D'oh. I definitely need to work on the concept of "reading the whole sentence before responding." My bad. I edited my post.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012