QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 8 2014, 06:20 PM)
an aggressive hacker won't save you from wireless grenades if the other guy does it right. activate wireless, throw, detonate (requires a ready action in the previous round, though, unless you're using an underslung launcher). you may need an extra person to detonate depending on how you read the rules (so far as i can tell, there is nothing letting you swap a simple action for a free action, but there really should be), but even then a decker can't do squat; if they manage to get a mark (which can be against a fairly difficult target; high rating commlinks are not that expensive), they won't have an action before you can detonate it anyways to do anything with their mark. technomancers do have it slightly better in this situation, if they have puppeteer (and you bloody well should, because you paid way too much to be a technomancer to *not* take the only thing they sort of have going for them) since they don't need to get a mark first, but... well, massive amounts of fading, they need to have an action available and have the worst access to initiative boosts in the game, and they still have to win their opposed test...
even then, if you rule that simple actions can be used to take free actions, the technomancer won't have a chance to react in most cases. though, come to think of it, i think it'd be hilarious if you know your enemy has a technomancer to get a fake wireless grenade and let them blow their own brains out trying to puppeteer it...
The swap simple to free is a different question but in general I agree it should be possible. Though enabling wirless is a simple action so there isn't even a problem to go "IWIN" with grenades.
The usual order of operations to "safely" use iwin-grenades would be:
First phase you need to draw the grenade (Ready weapon simple action) and then do nothing or simple action fire useless pistol. Ready weapon might be a complex action since grenades are not in "typical holster". SR5 p. 165.
Second action phase you Enable wireless (simple action) followed by throw weapon simple action and detonate grenade (change linked device mode) free action.
Then repeat process above for simple broken grenade spamming every other action phase. The brokenness is because throw is not a complex action (even though melee attack is). This whole problem would disappear if throw was not a simple action (But it would probably gimp legit use of the throw skill). A munchkin walks around with grenades in hand already and do enable wirless + throw + detonate sequence the two first action phases. Two instant 18P no-defence sounds good.
The technomancer will have a hard time doing anything about proper use of grenades, just like you said. He can do with airburst grenade launcher grenades and other minor non-issues but when the can of "wireless grenades without wireless" are opened he too is a bit obsolete. I think you are right there. The saving factor I thought existed was an option to "pass your turn to interrupt someone else". Basically prepare action-action that doesn't exist. If TM could say "I ready myself for a grenade, and detonates it before he throws!" it would be more fun.
For no real reason, noise have no effect at all so jamming wasn't an option either even if it should be possible to jam the area around you enough to make sure no signals get through whatsoever. What you could do is live inside a giant hamster ball that is a farday's cage, the only thing that works by RAW.
The Run and Gun interrupt action fixes this, thankfully. It lets you take an interrupt action to simply walk away from grenades thrown with this tactic. It acts as a soft counter and should solve the basics.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 8 2014, 06:20 PM)
also, surukai, it doesn't say that AoE indirect spells work like grenades. it says the *test* is like the test for grenades. in no way do indirect AoE spells ever indicate that they have a waiting period to detonate like a grenade. (which is fine, imo; in order to damage comparable to a grenade, you're probably getting hit with enough fading to almost knock you out. if you actually are aiming for a one-hit KO, you probably need about force 10-11 depending on how much you can reliably beat the threshold by, and maybe more if you're worried about scatter... which means you're taking enough drain that if you don't roll well on your own drain resistance test, or you've already taken damage, it could kill/KO *you* as well.
It doesn't say either way actually. And I'm not saying it is "good" to treat them like I intepret the rules. They are just horribly broken if you let mages deal murderous damage and completely ignore all kinds of defence. In fact aoe spells are an order of magnitude more potent thanks to the zero damage fall off.
So, what about drain? Trivial I say!
I encounter a bunch of baddies, I decide to obliterate them. I cast F12 ball lightning but use 4 reagents (setting the limit to 4, making the drain Stun). It costs 80 nuyen to do this. With radius of 12 meters I don't even need to score a single hit, 1d6 scatter does not make a difference. I can use one single dram if I want to be cheap.
12P AP-12 means they get effectively barely any armor. Even with 6 body and 3 remaining armor they get around 9-10 boxes of damage. It invokes knockdown, max penalties, reduced initiative by 5-7 and a nice -2 penalty on top of that thanks to the debuff. All their devices also get obliterated with 6 matrix damage as bonus. The 452 square meter area should fit the entire enemy team unless they are extremely spread out. 24 meters end to end is bigger than a vast majority of combat maps I've seen. If anything I'll have to place it behind the enemies to avoid blasting myself and my friends.
Now, the drain. Lets say I only have around 12 dice to resist drain, and the drain code is 12 S. I roll some amount of hits and then use edge to reroll misses (another completely broken rule btw) I'm looking at rolling easily around 7 hits on that. 2-7 stun sure sucks but it instant-win almost every fight and it saves me the same amount of stun I'd get from taking a single hit with an enemy AK. So, I trade one "free hit on me" for an aoe splat.
That kind of awesome power is not available to the other character concepts. The grenade thrower sam is more efficient, but less powerful. The duo is nearly unbeatable.
AoE spells detonate next round -10. It has to be like that. Use Direct spells (Mana ball, power ball) to get instant effect. But like I said last time, at least they can defend against that. No defence is boring. Who needs it?
Who has thrown grenades or aoe spells at their players and they had an interesting time as a result? Can you even think of a situation? I rather give my players a very hard defence roll versus a sniper scoring 8 hits than just ignore their characters completely. That is bad game design, bad.