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MADness
I was wondering if there is a simplified version of hacking rules. I'm afraid to even crack them, from all the crazy and contradictory things I hear; but one of my soon-to-be players has expressed interest in being a decker. I was wondering/hoping that someone had already come up with something workable, relatively simple, and relatively enjoyable.

If not, then I guess I will have to bash out my own crazy mess. That just sounds like a bad idea.
Draco18s
Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.
Sendaz
I suggest going for the Black & Decker Role, using a PowerSaw for all your Hacking needs. smile.gif

Or you could wait for Draco I suppose. wink.gif
Draco18s
I'll see about having it a little sooner but less complete. Got a whole section that needs to get done in some respect before it's usable for a Shadowrun game.

Also, yes, I'm being intentionally vague.
MADness
Not to delay your work Draco, but you got any hints on what you've done? I had an idea for direction (reminding that I have no actual understanding of how they stand or how real hacking works), which was to take the parallel between mages and tks and applying it a similar theory to deckers. Some programs act as weapons, others as ware or other gear. Noise affects thresholds and the like. But I need to read the rules to make sure I understand what the goal is. My main goal is to streamline the games options for the sake of ease rather than conformity. If we only really have to understand one or two systems, rather than four or more, than players are more likely to experiment with different archetypes and builds.
Sendaz
I cas--err--run Dataspike at the Darkness!!
Draco18s
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 24 2014, 05:21 PM) *
My main goal is to streamline the games options for the sake of ease rather than conformity. If we only really have to understand one or two systems, rather than four or more, than players are more likely to experiment with different archetypes and builds.


You have an idea. That's good.
That said, it doesn't fit within the context that I'm working in.

Even if what I have going doesn't end up working for you, I think you'll be impressed anyway. Give me a few days. smile.gif
thorya
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 05:28 PM) *
Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.


I've been in a "just another week" place on hacking rules for 6 months. Without a game for people to use them in, it hasn't seemed worthwhile.
Draco18s
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 24 2014, 06:04 PM) *
I've been in a "just another week" place on hacking rules for 6 months. Without a game for people to use them in, it hasn't seemed worthwhile.


I'm not kidding though. This is something I've been actively working on for...most of the month.
thorya
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 07:02 PM) *
I'm not kidding though. This is something I've been actively working on for...most of the month.


I didn't think you were kidding. I've definitely have been in that place. I've got a ten page document of alternate rules for pretty much every system I've ever played in, because things just don't work to my liking.

Got most of the way to making programs function like spells with a specific purpose. So you had a separate program just for taking out cameras or a virus to delete each file on a commlink. I was to the point of defining the different list of programs, when I lost interest because the game didn't come together. I keep meaning to get back to it, but never do.

MADness, if you would like what I've got, I can post it. But it's about 6 pages all together, so I don't want to clutter the thread if that seems different than what you intend. My rules put a much stronger focus on programming before a run and once you're out there the code either works or it doesn't (but you might have redundant programs to accomplish the same goal). There's no hacking a system on the fly, keeping track of marks, cybercombat, etc.
MADness
Thorya, If you have a link or a download, pm it to me, I'll give it a read. And I was not attempting to imply anything about your system Draco (the internet's lack of vocal inflection makes me feel like I have to apologize for everything I say). I also want to read over your stuff.

And just to be clear, I want to make hackers feel more like street same in the matrix, and tms more like mages or shamans. That way everyone has their own flavor, and I can keep a squad of teenaged boys engaged regardless of the roles they play.
RHat
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 24 2014, 03:05 PM) *
I was wondering if there is a simplified version of hacking rules. I'm afraid to even crack them, from all the crazy and contradictory things I hear; but one of my soon-to-be players has expressed interest in being a decker. I was wondering/hoping that someone had already come up with something workable, relatively simple, and relatively enjoyable.

If not, then I guess I will have to bash out my own crazy mess. That just sounds like a bad idea.


I'm just going to say this: Form your own opinion. The hacking rules are actually quite simple; most of what's getting said about them comes from trying to make things too complex with a system not yet able to support the complexity (presumably, that will come in Data Trails).
Jack VII
If you really want just a very basic hacking system, you could do something like this:

- For simplicity's sake, any device you can see is auto-spotted, regardless of whether it is running silently or not. (This mainly impacts tactical hacking)
- Ignore MARKs
- Roll Skill + Attribute as normal, the limit equal to your deck's DR (ASDF no longer exists)
- Devices resist with their DRx2, Host's with their Host Rating
- For a super-simple approach to tactical hacking, any net hit allows the hacker to do what they want with a device (turning it off, causing dice pool penalties to an opponent, etc). Alternately, you could set thresholds to accomplish different things (1 net hit for dice pool penalty, 2 net hits for shutting the device down for a minute or two, 3 net hits to brick, etc.)
- For hosts, essentially the same thing. Net hits allows entry/file access/device manipulation/etc or thresholds for the same for a more complicated approach.
- For cybercombat, Cybercombat + Logic vs. Host Rating (IC) or Cybercombat + Logic (if opposing decker). Keep track of net hits on each side. If net hits exceed 1/2 Host Rating (IC) or Device rating (opposing decker), the persona/IC is defeated, causing dumpshock and shutting down the defeated deck for 10 minutes or so.

There are a lot of other things to consider and probably some significant balance issues, but I think that's a start to making things simpler (eliminating a lot of the spotting rules, ASDF and MARKs for example). I personally like the hacking rules, but I think they could be made simpler if you wanted.
Draco18s
Oh, I should mention.

What I'm working on is more better as a plugin to 4th than a plugin to 5th as I'm assuming any target the player will be hacking will be Host-equivalent. Not a gun or cyberware.
DMiller
Actually Jack, I like some of your ideas. Our group has always tried to have 2 sets of hacking rules. 1 set is the RAW, and is used for important hacks. The other set is for speed-hacking things that are needed, but not story-line important. So things like stealing the data file you were hired to get would use RAW, but bypassing the camera in the parking structure would use speed-hacking. I may take a closer look at some of the options you have presented.
Sponge
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2014, 05:28 PM) *
Give me about a week and I'll have something even better.

It's almost done, I just need some time to polish.


I was just about to start a thread about some rough ideas I've been mulling over for a replacement Matrix system (5e), to get some feedback. I'll hold off a bit and see what you have first wink.gif

Draco18s
QUOTE (Sponge @ Mar 25 2014, 12:04 PM) *
I was just about to start a thread about some rough ideas I've been mulling over for a replacement Matrix system (5e), to get some feedback. I'll hold off a bit and see what you have first wink.gif


Don't wait for me, go right ahead. I'm more working on SR4 and you won't be stepping on my toes at all. smile.gif
MADness
So far, I like the basics (skills and asdf) though I may drop the use of Computer for matrix perception (Matrix becomes a Perception specialty). Bricking is something I hear a lot about, and I am attempting something to at least mitigate it. However, I have no experience with hacking rules (either as a player or as a cm), so I have no idea if my "fix" is even really usable. It's essentially an extra modification that provides protection against the worst of bricking side effects (no more spinal fires); and a buff on the critical glitch rules (the same mod reduces perma bricking). I just don't know how these will work out for actuall play. Btw, the mod is an extra 25% cost, cyber comes default with it (to protect against catastrophic system failures that may occur with such stuff anyway).
Sponge
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2014, 01:46 PM) *
Don't wait for me, go right ahead. I'm more working on SR4 and you won't be stepping on my toes at all. smile.gif


I started to write up such a post and just doing that made me realize I need to have something a little more fleshed out first. smile.gif
RHat
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 25 2014, 04:28 PM) *
the worst of bricking side effects (no more spinal fires);


Those side effects don't actually exist. Small fires are a POSSIBLE consequence of bricking, not a UNIVERSAL consequence of bricking, and it's ridiculous to assume they're present when the consequences are that severe.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:16 PM) *
Those side effects don't actually exist. Small fires are a POSSIBLE consequence of bricking, not a UNIVERSAL consequence of bricking, and it's ridiculous to assume they're present when the consequences are that severe.


You should re-read that section... They are a COMMON feature of a device being bricked. Far from just a possibility.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:30 PM) *
You should re-read that section... They are a COMMON feature of a device being bricked. Far from just a possibility.


They are not universal features, period.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:32 PM) *
They are not universal features, period.


Says you... But the book says otherwise. Those things Listed ARE COMMON EFFECTS of Bricking. Period. You may not get all of them all the time, but they are all frequent enough happenings to be called Common. You may not like it, but it is fact.
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:46 PM) *
Says you... But the book says otherwise. Those things Listed ARE COMMON EFFECTS of Bricking. Period. You may not get all of them all the time, but they are all frequent enough happenings to be called Common. You may not like it, but it is fact.


But there are also times where that DON'T happen, because they're COMMON, and not UNIVERSAL. You may not like it, but it's a fact
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:48 PM) *
But there are also times where that DON'T happen, because they're COMMON, and not UNIVERSAL. You may not like it, but it's a fact


Yes, but your continual arguing that Fires don't happen in the Body is tedious and wrong. As evidenced by the quote in the book itself. They DO HAPPEN. And it Happens enough to be called a COMMON occurrence. Internal Cyber fires NOT happening would be an UNCOMMON occurrence. *shrug*
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:54 PM) *
Yes, but your continual arguing that Fires don't happen in the Body is tedious and wrong. As evidenced by the quote in the book itself. They DO HAPPEN. And it Happens enough to be called a COMMON occurrence. *shrug*


Where does it say so? Not that fires are a common feature, but specifically that they occur in the body?

It's important to note, too, that there's a developer ruling on this that there is no such impact - that there's not some effect from bricking that would be associated with a spine fire.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 25 2014, 05:56 PM) *
Where does it say so? Not that fires are a common feature, but specifically that they occur in the body?

It's important to note, too, that there's a developer ruling on this that there is no such impact - that there's not some effect from bricking that would be associated with a spine fire.


Show me in Errata or it is just vapor and is not true. smile.gif
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2014, 06:58 PM) *
Show me in Errata or it is just vapor and is not true. smile.gif


Show me your rule that fires happen for internal cyberware specifically, and the rules for what the effect of that is, or it is just vapour and not true.

There's no need to Errata a false interpretation, TJ.
Draco18s
That particular point-counter-point has been beaten to death already.

Just drop it, both of you.
RHat
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2014, 07:43 PM) *
That particular point-counter-point has been beaten to death already.

Just drop it, both of you.


I'd love to. So how's about we leave it at "whether you think it's there are spinal fires or not, can we just pretend that spinal fires aren't a thing since there's no gain from it at all"?
MADness
Or how about you guys take it to pm, since you are the two who keep derailing threads to have this discussion. I brought it up as part of my own personal project that is attempting to change the way hackers work in 5e to feel a little more like Sammies in the Matrix. I have an option that could be used as a fix for those who do feel spinal fire is a thing, and want to use it (great way to take out enemy units, right?). Since you don't feel like there is any risk for those things, don't post about htm
Sengir
Step 1: Clearly describe the relationship between real world locality, AR, and VR, and how the three interact. Once you have managed to do a workable description of the playing field, you can start describing what can be done on the field (and how)


My personal suggestion would be a strict separation of AR and the actual matrix: AR is banners, billboards, sounds effects, buttons etc. which get broadcast by short-range emitters and displayed by commlinks (and connected devices) when coming into range. You may also have devices in your PAN generate AR stuff which only devices in the same PAN can see, like ammo counts from your gun, music from your NERPS-pod, or the reason the net was born.

The matrix on the other hand is a global consensual hallucination virtual reality [bla bla...] which has nothing to do with the real world, although hosts which are physically together often are in the same matrix neighborhood (like connections from the same area being in the same IP range today).

Interaction between AR and VR:
- The matrix can be accessed in classic tortoise mode, which means you control your persona like an avatar in a PC game, either directly or by just telling it "go to location X". These controls and the "screen" can be AR elements.
- AR emitters often have a matrix back-end to change the display or transmit information when somebody hits the AR PanicButton. The "authentic Ares product" tag in your underwear, however, does not.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2014, 06:43 PM) *
That particular point-counter-point has been beaten to death already.

Just drop it, both of you.


That damned Necromantic Horse just keeps gettin' back up, though.
It does so because it is a Core Concept in enabling the Hacker (something that many of us think is entirely unnecessary) in this edition, and the ramifications of that decision are non-trivial.
It needs an Official resolution, and not some off-handed comment on a Forum. Until that happens, it will CONTINUE to be a divisive issue.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 26 2014, 10:08 AM) *
My personal suggestion would be a strict separation of AR and the actual matrix: AR is banners, billboards, sounds effects, buttons etc. which get broadcast by short-range emitters and displayed by commlinks (and connected devices) when coming into range. You may also have devices in your PAN generate AR stuff which only devices in the same PAN can see, like ammo counts from your gun, music from your NERPS-pod, or the reason the net was born.

The matrix on the other hand is a global consensual hallucination virtual reality [bla bla...] which has nothing to do with the real world, although hosts which are physically together often are in the same matrix neighborhood (like connections from the same area being in the same IP range today).


100% agreement here. AR is Twitter/Instagram and the Matrix is where the heavy lifting happens. AR touches the Matrix very briefly through small, specific portals but the realio-dealio stuff is all Matrix.
MADness
I was thinking of making them steps. RR is us, normal reality. AR is the half-step, able to affect the local matrix, but only what one can see. The AR level can send messages and use applications to reach things further away (the way we post on message boards and FB). VR is full immersion, matching the classic matrix concept.

Now, a person can have AROs in RR, these are just super small (ammo count, targeting reticulum). Those in AR have a small penalty (-1) to any Regular Reality actions, but can do a lot more. This is where hacking guns would be the most common. I am rambling.
RHat
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 26 2014, 12:29 PM) *
RR is us, normal reality. AR is the half-step,


I'm not sure, given that by fluff, everyone is using AR all the time, what there is to gain with this distinction.
MADness
The part right after. It's like the current use of smart phones, taken to the 2070s levels. Bluejacking, cloning, etc. AR is what most people do, they're constant texting, chatting, pixting, celeb gossip, stupid "facts", constant in-your-face corp advertising. It's like having a bro in your year constantly saying "Bro! Check out this sick thing bro!" Regular reality is what most runners use, sane people really. I guess it's comparable to running "silent", where you have a minimum number of AR intrusions into your personal space.

The big distinctions I want to attempt is that AR only really effects the local area (the 100 meters rule, if you will). Anything further than that requires going VR, or using intermediary sites and apps (where the Facebook/Twitter analogy comes in.) Again, my understanding of the current hacking rules comes more from what unread on the boards, rather than from the book itself. So it may be completely absurd.

I am still working on it. I have three pages of notes, just from the skills section, so inlay be doing it wrong.
Sengir
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 26 2014, 07:29 PM) *
I was thinking of making them steps. RR is us, normal reality. AR is the half-step, able to affect the local matrix, but only what one can see. The AR level can send messages and use applications to reach things further away (the way we post on message boards and FB). VR is full immersion, matching the classic matrix concept.

Now, a person can have AROs in RR, these are just super small (ammo count, targeting reticulum). Those in AR have a small penalty (-1) to any Regular Reality actions, but can do a lot more. This is where hacking guns would be the most common. I am rambling.

The problem with having AR and VR in the same "world" is that AR is tied to real-world localities. The matrix in SR on the other hand allows your icon to teleport to locations on the other side of the globe, or enter a "pocket universe" aka. node/host.

You could turn the matrix into something that works like astral space, an overlay where every device's icon is exactly where the device sits in real life, with VR personas and agents floating in between as virtual ghosts. Getting into a certain location physically would put you into the location's matrix (so breaking into an office means you are also inside the office's node), but interacting with something you cannot get physically close to would require projecting your astral virtual body there.
Would it work? Why not, it's basically the magic rules with terminology adjusted to "data barriers", "virtual projection" and "dual-stacked entities".
Would I like it? Not in my Shadowrun wink.gif
MADness
Sorry, my head has been off. AR is limited to local space, VR is like the standard Matrix. VR is not limited by physical distance.
Draco18s
Alright. You wanted it.

http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/hacking.html

Cybercombat isn't really reflected at the moment, and there's a lot of other things I want to flesh out. But it's usable.

Enjoy.
MADness
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 27 2014, 01:55 PM) *
Alright. You wanted it.

http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/hacking.html

Cybercombat isn't really reflected at the moment, and there's a lot of other things I want to flesh out. But it's usable.

Enjoy.


I can't even begin to comment, mostly cause I can't play with it on my phone. Unless it's a joke and I missed something.
mraston
I've got some ideas right here;

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15S097ue...dit?usp=sharing


Basically everything is a now a skill + logic dice pool.

Logic component of dice pool is limited by your commlink (Signal + Response divided by 2 rounded down, equals the maximum amount of Logic dicepool in the matrix).
Skill component of the dice pool is limited by your "Skill System" program. This new "Skill System" program comes under the cost of a "System" program and acts as the umbrella program for all the skill's activities.

The only Programs you will need to worry about buying are: Armor, Stealth, Attack, Black Hammer and Black Out. The rest are covered by your "Skill System" programs.

You WILL need to buy each separate program if you wish to equip an AI agent with them, but I guess the AI agent side of things only for hackers who want to get technical any ways.

I'm in the process of writing the combat rules but they go like this;

Initive = Computer Skill + Intuition
Attacking: Decide on the attack program to use, make an opposed test: Cybercombat + Logic Vs Defenders Device Rating x 2 or (if another hacker) Cybercombat + Logic. If the attacker scores more hits, itís a hit. Note the Net Hits.
Matrix Damage: The damage depends on the offensive program being used to attack, that programs rating + the net hits = damage.
Matrix Armor and Damage Resistance: Will Power + Armor.

Just replace any NPC device with a Device Rating, which most PC test thresholds are going to be Device Rating x 2.
Draco18s
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 27 2014, 04:30 PM) *
I can't even begin to comment, mostly cause I can't play with it on my phone. Unless it's a joke and I missed something.


It's not a joke.

As for running it on a phone:
Technically possible, but I'd have to compile it for Android (or iOS) and the controls aren't set up for that (lack of a real keyboard).
Method
Not to re-light any (spinal) fires, but medically speaking it would be hard to have an implant catch fire in an aqueous micro-oxygenated environment like the human body. Electrical burns are maybe more feasible (and just as problematic) but whatever.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 27 2014, 08:02 PM) *
Not to re-light any (spinal) fires, but medically speaking it would be hard to have an implant catch fire in an aqueous micro-oxygenated environment like the human body. Electrical burns are maybe more feasible (and just as problematic) but whatever.


Oh Sure... Bring Medical Science into the equation... You are Harshing My Mellow Method. eek.gif
Method
Well to be fair tho, any cyberware with external components would be fair game. Cyber eyes burning out of the sockets would certainly ruin one's day. I just don't think spinal fires would be a thing. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 27 2014, 08:12 PM) *
Well to be fair tho, any cyberware with external components would be fair game. Cyber eyes burning out of the sockets would certainly ruin one's day. I just don't think spinal fires would be a thing. smile.gif


But wait, there's more... Even with your Cyber eyes melted to goo, all it takes is one hour with our patented Brick-Be-Gone™ and you are right as rain. Call now for bulk discounts, our operators are standing by... smile.gif.
MADness
Actually, my spectacular failure for cyber eyes is for them to display continuous and awkward porn.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MADness @ Mar 27 2014, 08:20 PM) *
Actually, my spectacular failure for cyber eyes is for them to display continuous and awkward porn.


That's.... Awkward indeed...
Method
What is seen cannot be unseen... eek.gif
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