This is going off of memory, but SotA 2063 introduced the whole new process of genetic engineering- everything from simply changing your eye colour up to leonization and full body repair. One of the things that caught my eye was in utero modifications.

Now bioware involves switching out natural bits of your body for augmented parts to improve things. Rather than having brand new vat parts implanted into you, would it be possible to have your genes worked on before being born so that in effect you naturally grow the bioware as part of you? Wouldn't really give you any benefit, and probably be a bit more excpensive, except that you'd start right off with it.

This is more for a backstory that I've got kicking around but since I know absolutely nothing about this type of thing thought I'd throw it out and get peoples feedback on it.

Sure, I don't see a problem with a character being an experimental test tube baby as long as it was adequetly explained, including the part about a major secret like him getting out of corporate hands and running the shadows instead of being on a disection table somewhere.

That kind of procedure is still a long way off in Shadowrun. It might be possible in a deltac clinic-level R&D lab somewhere, but it's not something you're going to see on a regular basis. The utero modifications are more for things like correcting hereditary birth defects, changing genders, and that sort of thing. Not implanting augmented organs so you grow up to be a super soldier.

Seems doable, but there's something niggling me about it that I can't quite put my finger on. Something about the method of growing bioware. *shrugs* Iono.

The text indicates that the genetic changes to get the super-metahuman performance out of specific organs has a tendency to cause other organs to fail in remarkable ways. There may be a theoretically feasible combination that sometimes survives, but it is not statistically viable.

As Herald said, the manipulations done to grow bioware are generally done rather haphazardly and without too much concern for consequences, since it can be cheaper to find a solution that works, rather than continue to work at something until it's totally perfect.

A blank clonal body is created with a modified genetic code. It is then force-grown to maturity. Since the body is not going to be anything other than parts, the creators don't care if, to get the super-kidneys and poison glands, the body suffers from heart disease and Alzheimer's. Snip-snip go the parts, the rest is "recycled" (make of that term what you will). The difference with cultivated bioware is that the blank is made from your own genetic material.

I don't have a problem with, for a much, much greater investment of time and money, allowing these sort of modifications in vitro or in utero. Hell, it could be a proof of concept by a corporation seeking to cut operating costs by increasing the output of each body-blank. More distinct parts that can be parcelled out from a blank, the more money can be made from said blank, without much increase in production cost.

I don't see much of a benefit to this sort of set-up, unless you feel like allowing the character to have a set of "bioware" that's not actually bioware (i.e., not affecting Bio Index). If you assume it's just normal bioware, just possessed from birth, it becomes nothing more than a neat character hook. If you want to create (or allow to be created) a character with bioware-like abilities that don't affect Bio Index, don't look at me.

That's been the process since Shadowtech (which has a nice image of a "accident" for genetic mod/bioware), and possibly earlier when you look at the old descriptions of clonal parts in the BBB.

Shadowtech, page 11, Shadowtalk, KAM's speach. It might be in a newer book, but I couldn't find it in M&M when I just looked.

Working on a system for 'vat-grown' metahumans inspire by another thread.

M&M surgery options for bioware: Bio Index Reduction and Redundancy can be used for such genetically adapted bioware. -5% bio index and -1 stress point each time it takes stress.

Another possible alternative is to genetically engineer a person so they'd be a more compatible platform for bioware. I don't have my notes in front of me but I believe I had some notes on a variant.

You would pay the creation cost for a metahuman (10 points or a priority), in exchange you'd be a human, with higher racial maximums than a normal human, 2 points bonus starting attributes, and any bioware you implant would 'recover' 25% of its BI cost after implantation. So if you had an implant with a cost of 1, you'd still need at least 1 spare point of BI available for surgery, but post surgery, your system would reduce it down to .75, leaving you .25 space again.

The only real bonus I could see- keeping inside the rules- would be that because they're a natural part of you, stress damage would heal normally without the need for nanites.

And really the game woul dhave to be in 2075+ for a character to be viably old enough.

Most likely. Unless we get into cloning and forced/accelerated growth territory, but that's a thread for another time.

Nah, you could get around the 2057 bit easily by assuming the character was part of the prototype testing that went on for decades before the first commercial implant went on the market.

For someone who doesn't give a rat's ass what I have to say, you certainly quote and talk to me quite a bit.

Also, you couldn't use it as a way to get bioware with no Bio-index cost, as all the genetech has a bio-index cost anyway.

Keep in mind that bioware is very new, having really only come around in the late 2050s. If you run you game in the early 2060s...

<throws on BitBasher's wig and flails around mockingly> "Noooo! That's a cliche! The horror! HORROR!"

Orks, people. They mature faster, and are stronger and tougher to begin with.

Genetically engineered and 'vat-grown', bioware-filled physically superior soldiers. While they have shorter lifespans, a soldier isn't expected to live for that long anyway. Their slightly reduced metal capacity makes them a bit easier to subvert and control, lthough they make slightly more mistakes in the field - but coupled with a good tactician that can be amended.

I like the idea of using bio index as costs for suitable SURGE effects and edges/flaws... going to look further into that - thanx Dakhran.

All that bioware would be nice... until your GM saddles with you severe allergy: soy in exchange. That wouldn't be fun.

I think you might get a kick out of this, snowraven. Doesn't seem very hard to add any of the genotypes to SR, at the very least the shifters or goths...

No big. It's about the only cyberpunk themed MUD I've ever found that didn't suck the big one...

Tell us if ye get anything worksable out of it, eh?

Once (if) I have a system for genetically engineered vat-grown humans I'll present it here

I wonder how far off the SR universe is from the Gattaca (spelling?) setting (You know the one with Ethan and Uma) for genetic engineering.

Just a quick question.

I remember someone mentioning in another thread about mana being linked to the genome of the Awakened. I'm assuming that goblinization, as well as UGE, also has mana tied directly to the genetics of these metahumans. I think it would be impossible to 'change' an troll back into human.

So, wouldn't it be next to impossible to fiddle around with the genetic coding of the metahumans, such as in making an orkish or shapeshifter super soldier, since mana is somehow inextricably bound to it?

I understand that bioware isn't really altering the coding, but then is the rejection of these new organs much higher in metahumans than humans? Please note that I don't have the SOTA sourcebook so if its in there my apologies.

Well if you do go for the forced growth clone approach then you might as well shove in a mnemonic enhacer level three as well so you can teach them how to do things once they get out of the tank. With that you should be able to pick up things along the same speed as most growing kids I would imagine.

nah, that's only when it was first marketed. in the 2040's, it was still being developed. to me, that means that any character in the 2060s with in vitro bioware should be facing some serious drawbacks--all his bioware is 20 years behind the cutting edge. at the very least, that screams "used" to me, to represent the relatively clumsy growth techniques and unforseen complications.

It's perfectly feasible to assume that cutting-edge biotech research may have come up as a way to induce the development of bioware in an embryo without the tendency to cause failure in other organs. Stretching believability just a bit, it might be assumed that a adolescent with extensive modifications might be around by 2064, as a prototype.

The procedure to create him would have cost millions of nuyen, so he'd likely be either a very special agent of the corporation that created him (likely ensuring his loyalty via extensive ASIST psychotropic conditioning), or an escaped (and Hunted) specimen. Dark Angel situations may abound, in the latter case. The beauty of this system is that once you've paid the admittedly very high cost of getting the genetic code just right, development costs for building your army of super-soldiers drop dramatically, as you just have to raise the babies. No more need of performing expensive and complex surgery modifications on each individual soldier.

As an added benefit, if you raise them from birth, you may control the way they turn out to an enormous extent: choosing what skills they learn, or the ideology they subscribe (such as fanatical loyalty to a corp). Granted, they are still sentients, so a minority may still react in unpredictable ways (such as rebelling or escaping). The only major hassle is that it becomes a long-term project, as you have to wait 14-18 years to have your super-agents grown eanough to be useful, unless you manage to master forced-growth technology as well (in which case you will need to feed a very intensive regimen of training to your creations via simsense).

As for rule systems, I'd assume, as per SOTA 2063, p. 25, that bioware and genetech treatments developed in utero cost only 75% of normal Body Index cost. Moreover, it would be reasonable to assume that growing up with the modifications as natural organs would give them the equivalent of the Bio Index Reduction (twice) and Rugged Positive Surgery (-10% Bio Index, to a total of 65% of normal, and one extra die for bioware stress tests), and to allow "inborn" bioware to fully self-heal stress down to 0. As an additional perk, since modifications would be natural for the character, they could not be removed from the character without very extensive (and expensive) surgery and genetic treatments. Character would begin play with a fixed set of bioware and "biological" cyberware implants and genetech modifications that are inborn to him.

On the down side, such a character could never be Awakened or a Metahuman (the extensive genetic modifications would alter the genome too much to keep the astral "shadows" of metagenes and the mage factor intact). Moreover, having such a character would cost 25 character points plus other 30 points in Resources for the modifications. The normal rules for excessive bioware and system overstress would still apply (after applying the template modifications): excessive metabolic load would still hamper the character's body systems. Moreover, the character would have Bio-Rejection (incompatible biology) and either Compulsive (loyalty to creator corp) or Dark Secret (genegineered vat-grown fugitive freak) and Hunted (creator corp). Additionally Flaws like Allergy, Amnesia, Combat Monster, Flashbacks, Impulsive, Greed, Kleptomania, Lecherous, Phobia, Uncouth, and Vindictive are all likely, to represent the likely side effects of extensive genetic modifications, and the mental scars of being raised up in a lab. Also Distinctive Style (barcode tattoo) and Cranial Bomb are possible.

A good typical "race" template of modifications would be:

Boosted Reflexes (Delta) 3
Cat's Eyes (Cultured)
Nictating Membranes (Cultured)
Chemical Gland (Anticoagulants) (Cultured)
Enhanced Articulation (Cultured)
Muscle Augmentation (Cultured) 4
Muscle Toner (Cultured) 4
Nephritic Screen (Cultured)
Orthoskin (Cultured) 2
Platelet Factories (Cultured)
Suprathyroid Gland (Cultured)
Symbiotes (Cultured) 3
Cerebral Booster (Cultured) 2
Mnemonic Enhancement (Cultured) 3
Synaptic Accelerator (Cultured) 2
Trauma Damper (Cultured)
Body Modified Limit Increase (Cultured)
Quickness Modified Limit Increase (Cultured)
Strength Modified Limit Increase (Cultured)
Calcitonin Synthesis (Cultured)
Erythropoietin Synthesis (Cultured)

which would leave the character in a permanent state of light overstress.

If the creating genetists would have pushed the template's possibilities to the extreme, it might have also:

Adrenal Pump (Cultured) 2
Chemical Gland (ACTH) (Cultured)
Extended Volume (Cultured) 2
Synthacardium (Cultured) 2

Or:

Damage Compensator (Cultured) 5
Reflex Recorder (Base Skill) (Cultured) 6
Sleep Regulator (Cultured)
Thermosense Organ (Cultured)

Or:

Digestive Expansion (Cultured)
Pathogenic Defense (Cultured) 2
Toxin Extractor (Cultured) 2
Tracheal Filter (Cultured) 2

Oh, hell, as long as the normal chargen rules are followed, being gengineered in utero is no big deal.

Look, I seem to recall seeing a character who had orichalcum bone lacing, obstensibly as a result of some hideous experiment. He created the character as a standard adept, defined his "killing hands" as orichalcum spurs that popped out of his hands, and so on. Since he was using the normal adept rules, the rest was just a "special effect" that made the character more interesting. No rules were actually harmed in the making of this character, so there wasn't any real problem.

yeah. it's just that, for once, i'd like to see a character whose prototype cyber/bioware that he got from some horrible experiment by whoever is actually, you know, prototypical. glitchy, unrefined, behind the technology curve.

Well, it may have been pushing the curve when the character got the stuff, but that was 20 years ago... by this time it would be behind the curve.

Whew. Haven't posted here in awhile, too busy playing City of Heroes Heh, anyhoo...

Definately the transgenic Dark Angel type character would be better suited as a chargen option for a higher level game. I've been mulling the idea over a bit, and was thinking a Dark Angel type char would probably be worth setting up somewhat like a physical (magical) adept. Here's my reasoning:

To get a human to that level of performance they'd have to create a finely internally balanced system. Sorta sounds like the way essence is setup for a physad. A physad could slap some cyber or more bioware in, but they'd actually lose some of their baseline performance because it would impact their 'natural system'.

I could see some ongoing biochemical tuning of sorts, but not as much the hacking out of perfectly working pieces and replacing them with even more extra parts. Thoughts?