I just created a new char. that is awakened (adept) and suffers from astral hazing. He has got 2 essence points of bioware and an adjusted magic attribute of 1. So if i want to raise the magic attribute, does it work if his current magic attribute is actually 0 (or -3 if you want to say it that way?).

Raising your Magic takes into account what it actually is. In the case of your character, your natural max is 4 because of bio, and it is adjusted to a 0 because of Hazing. It would cost the same as raising a 4 to a 5, including necessitating an Initiation beforehand, because your actual Magic rating is a 4, not a 0. The Hazing simply is a modifier to your score.

At least, this is for 4th Ed. Which version are you using?

Sr4

Unless I'm reading it wrong, he bought a Magic of 3, got two points of bioware, and has a Magic of 1, which is then affected by background count. So he can raise it from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and then 3 to 4 without initiating, but his adjusted Magic will still be zero. He will need to initiate before raising his Magic to 5, which will finally give him an effective Magic rating of 1. So that is 45 karma he will need to spend, then he can spend for initiation, then spend 25 more Karma, to get a Magic rating of 1 after astral hazing is applied.

Ok, so i can still increase magic, even while i don´t have any magic-attribute left “at the moment”. What would you say about initiation? Does a “currently-not-exisiting” magic attribute interfere here in any way or can is secretly enhance my skills until I am magical again? What about a mentor spirit. Do you still have contact, if you don´t have a magic attribute available? Can I “buy” a mentor spirit, even if I lack all skills?

This is correct. I was only dealing with the Natural Maximum, and not the actual rating.


1) Initiation - Astral Hazing would not interfere with Initation, as Initiation is based on Real Magic and not Adjusted Magic. It may make certain ordeals or whatnot more problematic, however.

2) Mentor Spirit - he'll be pissed with you for all the turbulence you cause. Imagine trying to call a new work associate and always getting craptons of static and interference in your calls. And yes, you can get a Mentor Spirit because, just like everything else, the only thing Mentor Spirit wants to see is a Magic Rating, which you have. It just happens you've got a temporarily (until further notice) reduced Magic rating.

But this begs the question: Why the frag would you decide to make a character that is not operable for his chosen archetype?

EDIT: The particular character you're talking about would be better made as a bio-light adept without astral hazing (~1 point of bio, Magic 5). If you wanted to be more protected from spells and whatnot you could take Adept powers to help with that instead of making your Magic unusable, and with the resulting 70+ karma you save you could improve combat/stealth abilities instead of finally climbing out of a debilitating hole.

Which is unaffected by Astral Hazing. Your max is still 4, hazing or not.

I choose astral hazing, because i wanted to create a real badass-spirit-killer. Of course the start is a little bit humpy, but after initiation he gains back some of his powers i wanted to spend on mystic armor, spell resistance and killing hands etc. I wanted him also be be still workable if he is in an area with high BC. So i put a little bioware into his body and all the magic stuff can follow later. This time i didn´t go for a super optimal character but something wort advancing.

Play a dwarf, make sure you have a troll in the party who picks up the "throw ally" feat.

You are now a projectile that insta-gibs Force 4 spirits and lower.

Spirit Killer? Try an elf magician, high Charisma & Willpower, high Banishing skill, and three levels of Kiai. At the start you could be throwing 9 dice (or more) for an Attack Of Will that deals potentially 10 + Hits damage to a materialized spirit that bypasses ITNW. For the times a spirit isn't materialized (or you don't want to get close) just make sure you can cast the Slay Spirit spell.

The idea of increasing Magic several times in a row, then initiating, then raising it again is somewhat strange as you forfeit on four points due to qualities and (at least) one to ware. It´s impressive if you get that to work. As GM I´d create a magical group offering to help as "your aura shows the proper attitude", while usual groups would not take you up.

73 karma is not "a little bit humpy." That is inoperable as an archetype. All those buildpoints you spent are literally worthless until such a time you get enough karma that most campaigns end or characters die.

I see what you want - someone who eventually affects other people (and spirits) with his background count, after his own Magic has finally been raised high enough to have some powers on top of that. The thing is, while astral hazing is a powerful ability to have, it is probably not worth the 4 points of Magic you are losing. That could be (for example) killing hands, critical strike: 4, elemental strike, and spell resistance: 4, right there. Plus, the character will be fairly limited while he is still earning the not insignificant amount of karma he needs to overcome his own astral hazing.

Believe me, i know that. Usually i have super-optimized builds that scratch easily on the edge of what is possible, but this time i wanted to start rather "calmly". The only thing i will change, is switching him to an mystic adept. The mentioning of the filtering metatechnique was ways too attractive for me to be ignored. ^^ But besides that, i like the concept a lot. Of course astral hazing is a massive drawback for your magical abilities, but if you get into close combat with a spirit, you can take him out with mundane ways without a problem. This plus the potential protection you get even from spirit powers is priceless, even in comparison with magical resistance through adept powers or counterspelling. With this char. i can 100% relate to my mundane abilities and raise magic over time. And usually our chars. survive longer than 100 karma, so it is a 5-year-plan. ^^

I'd have gone with Geomancy to Aspect the BC to the character's magic myself. So once he Geomances his Astral Hazing, it is a 8 point swing, from -4 to +4.

*Twitch*

I have a page in my character's dossier with the pertinent sentences printed out so I can argue to my GM why it works. I'm waiting on like 6 more Karma to get the ball rolling.

By the way, you know it takes a month (minimum), right?

And that even under the most lenient of rulings the afflicted can't move until the aura is aspected, otherwise you have to start over.

Know how big their blight is until then?

720 meters radius, give or take. Hope you're doing that out in the desert or you might accidentally piss off a lot of people.

If my memory serves, the first line of Astral Hazing is as useful as its last line.

I think it's like 4 months. It doesn't say you can't move for 4 months, just that once a month you need to do a ritual.

EDIT: Re-read Geomancy just to be sure and there is no mention that the site has to be immobile.

Assuming the GM allows geomancy to be used this way (RAW or not, the GM might still disallow it for game balance reasons), succeeding in aspecting a Rating: 4 background count will be daunting.

You basically treat it like a ritual spellcasting test (you will need that skill) of a Force: 8 spell, while still being affected by the background count. That means you need to have a Magic of at least 8 (4 after astral hazing) to even be able to attempt it. You have a threshold of 8, meaning you need 9 hits, not easy to do even if you use Edge to uncap hits (you have to do that if you are doing the ritual by yourself). Then you resist 8 Drain, probably physical Drain, but that isn't bad; it might mess you up for a bit, but it won't kill you.

The interesting part is what the GM might demand for the character to do to "re-sculpt" the "site".

Don't forget paying off the negative quality, too. It's no longer a negative quality.

It is still a negative quality in its raw state without the application of Geomancy, therefore there is no need and in fact, you want it there. Else there is no Background Count to Aspect.

And if a GM believes that, they deserve the ruin that will follow from having a character who has 4 higher magic where ever he goes, and is otherwise magically untouchable.

Indeed - We do not allow aspecting of the Background Count from Astral Hazing. Negative Quality and all that. You want something like that craft a Magician with the Spell "Aspected Mana Static."

NM

The interpretation I'd be pulling from it, as a GM or player, would be that your Astral Hazing is always forming a toxic cloud of BC around you. Geomancing the created Background Count is like running a water filter for a pool of water with a perpetual sewage leak. You can clean that water, and maybe even add some nice flavoring, but where that sewage is leaking will always be toxic and unhealthy. You're cleaning the BC that has flowed out from you, not the source of the BC itself (which is you). You're always going to be in the middle of that toxic zone, with the persistent -4 (or higher, depending on how long you stew in one place).

That's well within Rules as Written, and definitely seems to be Rules as Intended.

Bingo.
And if you fix the underlying problem, that's within the rules of "buying off a negative quality."

*Ding Ding Ding* We have a Winner.

But the underlying problem has not been fixed. It still exists. Except the problem works now for you. Consider - if you do buy it off and one fine day, the Geomantic ritual that Aspects your BC is somehow voided, the problem does not come back. When it should.

Geomancy is not running a filter. That's what Filtering does. Geomancy is more akin to fundamentally altering the output of the sewage such that you can make use of the methane produced.

Flexible Aspecting. Problem solved.


That's why Geomancy has the part about refocusing the site. Perhaps the way this is done is through a series of body mods (tattoos and branding and scarring) and deep meditation to bring one's body and soul into greater harmony, as that would fundamentally alter the spiritual leakage which is Astral Hazing.

This functionally works out to turning a toxic waste dump into a children's playground without actually removing the toxic waste.

Or really, without even telling the dumping company to stop sending it there....

See, I would disagree with this. If you are going out of your way to counter the effects of your negative quality, and then buy off the negative quality, then you have nullified your Negative Quality through your application of Geomancy, thus cleansing your body completely of the toxins that spawned them. Would Cleansing or Filtering make more sense? Sure, but some might rationalize repeated Geomancing of your body as working in that regard (assuming the GM would allow it, I wouldn't, because your Body is not a Location - I prefer Filtering and Cleansing for that rationale, in my opinion). *shrug*

Not really. It is more turning a raw sewage dump site into a sewage treatment plant. The shit is still coming in, but now you have fertilizer.


See, you are not cleansing your body so that you stop producing the Background Count. You want that Background Count, to work for you. You want your body to produce those toxins, so that via Geomancy those toxins instead of poisoning you, pump you up like Bane.

When you're producing a background count that works for you, then I'd say invert the cost of the negative quality. Don't just pay it off but also pay for it again.

My players hit a rating 3 domain aspected towards blood magic in the last game session, and the two Force 3 spirits that benefited from it proved to be really difficult for everyone and not just the awakened players. It was also the first time that combat lasted for more than a single combat turn.

No, because volatile emotions are not toxic waste. It's more like taking more control over every subconscious thought your brain makes, forcing your most inward parts to better align with your chosen paradigm. It's far more zen/religious than you make it out to be.

That would be buying off the quality so it doesn't exist any more.

so, if i buy off the negative quality . . can i then have it as an aspected to me domain instead?

No. Because there is no longer a domain of negative emotions. It went away, you're normal now.

You can't have an active toxic waste dumping ground AND a children's playground. You're either corrupting the place and making it unusable OR it's clean and wholesome.

Newark?

That's why I said "active dump"

You can clean a place up, that's all fine and dandy, but that's equivalent to buying off the negative quality.

You're just being actively difficult now.

Pedantry can be countered with equal pedantry.

Astral Hazing is caused by somebody outwardly emitting negative emotion, possibly buried and psychologically hidden from them, to the point that it poisons the mystical area around them. Have you ever met somebody who claims they're "a nice guy/girl," and they have few or no friends, complain about being alone all the time, and blame all of their problems on everybody else? And that person, over time, becomes so hateful towards everybody and everything, and drive even their family and closest friends away with their toxic attitude and toxic behavior? That's what's causing this, only it's all buried behind a functioning facade that would, in other circumstances, crack and wind up on the evening news after gunning down everybody they feel is responsible for their troubles.

That facade of functionality covers the toxic pipe from which all of this malice, self-loathing, etc. spews and colors the area around them, or of unnatural presence in the case of Cyberzombies. This negativity, self-destructiveness, and/or unnature fuels the background count. As a standard, normal people do not emit this background count, even with equal amounts of positivity. Part of this, I believe, is that Aggression and Passive-Aggression are dark emotions that push beyond the boundaries of the self, while the healthy counterpart, Assertiveness, does not violate the boundaries of another. Once you correct the imbalance of aggression, and of self-hate, the miasma that infuses you is either dispersed, rendered inert, plugged up healthily, or filtered before release by your own psyche, and becomes a normal part of the normal background count that suffuses whatever area you're in, that your presence typically colors (much as any other healthy individual).

If you wish to create an area with productive background count for your tradition, you may still use Geomancy, though it's a more drawn out process. You can, on the other hand, drop tons of toxic waste to poison an area to create that toxic background count you're looking for. Similar to the Astral Hazing, though, you can Geomance it. Unlike Astral Hazing, though, it doesn't perpetually make the background count around the area, but will slowly slide back until the toxic source of the corrupted essence is cleaned up physically.

Can you please post or mail this page for/to me. I am curious about it.

If I ready Geomancy (SM S.56) the first sentence made it pretty clear for me that this will not work. But hey maybe, I just misread or overlooked something.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Balance reason and game rules left aside, I cannot recommend it. Looking over it, the combination of astral hazing and geomancy may look pretty imba, but in true it is balanced pretty well. Yes most of the mages/adepts/spirits/norms this character face will just get murdered, but it will most likely kill your character. Geomancy is a mage metamagic technique. You must follow a specific magic tradition to use it, to realign your astral hazing into something you can use. You most likely cannot do it alone, or have someone else doing it sharing your tradition.

There are other mages with your tradition. Not everyone will be friendly. Some can summon and bind spirits. And one of this spirit, an average or challenging opponent will most likely kill you. You cannot outrun it, you cannot hide from it and you cannot beat it. The only way to destroy it is to kill his support, the thing that gives this spirit power, your character.


And another funny fact about this concept;
It’s a freaking mobile domain, a good dam mobile ritual circle. Do you have any ideas how much money you can do with it? How powerful that is in the right hands? What some not humans or cooperation would do to get their hands on this thing? It’s like a Type O System Norm with a force 30+ regeneration.

So I would be ok, no extra karma cost for this kind of stun needed, in my round.
And thanks for this story hook.

I'll try to find it for you.


Maybe, but "no because no" isn't a good reason not to be able to. Just because you don't like the idea of being clever enough to turn a Negative Quality into something that no longer hinders the user doesn't mean it doesn't work simply because "Negative Qualities are supposed to be negative."

Ummm - You do realize that any mage can use Geomancy, right? It is only a metamagic, and is non-specific to tradition.

A Negative Quality that does not Hinder isn't a Negative Quality. Simple as that, really.

Pretty much this.

You know that whole thing about "being allergic to salt water when playing a game in Arizona"? Yeah, this falls into that.

In fact, I'd pretty much say that the only way to buy off Astral Hazing would be Geomancy. That is, you can't get rid of it without the kinds of things Geomancy can do. But that doesn't make it a boon, it just fixes the problem and makes it go away. That or serious psychotherapy, which would take years, not months.