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Sengir
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Sep 22 2014, 05:54 AM) *
Isn't that Dirk Montgomery's Sister (from 2XS)?

And House of the Sun.

In Augmentation, she is suddenly mentioned as the CEO of Ares new medical subsidiary, and later in the book we learn that Ares has managed to start their own cybermancy program, which shadowtalk enigmatically attribute to "outside help"...


QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2014, 06:27 AM) *
I was under impression Ares was in control in Threats 2, while this time it seems the other way round. I'd be fine with that, frankly, if that did not involve changing how bugs work.

Sure they were in control, just like Renraku controlled Deus, or the Jurassic Park kept dinosaurs safely fenced in, or...


But how does that storyline involve changing how bugs work?
Wakshaani
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 22 2014, 03:12 AM) *
Hate to be the pessimist, but as you say, it's nearly a year into SR5, and this is all we have out for plot.

We're still short a couple core systems books, too, but the plot hooks that are out there now are the only game in town. Variety is needed here. smile.gif


Off teh top of my head?

Japanacorps unity and pushing into North America. Shiawase's surging under new leadership.
Ares internal power struggle.
NeoNET and MCT getting massive cash infusions with the wireless Matrix initiative.
Renraku's ongoing redesign.
Changes in the Infected.
Aztechnology's rising public image in the wake of the war with Sirrurg.
Denver. Ghostwalker. Harlequin.
The rebuilding of Chicago.
CAS activity and military moves.

That's just the easy ones. There's more than that, but it's still, you know, Act 1 Scene 1 on some of those, so it's understandable that you haven't caught them yet.

Keep watching the skies. biggrin.gif
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 21 2014, 10:54 PM) *
On a 10 point scale, where you get 5 for most-wanted, 4 for next, then 3, 2, 1 and 0, rate the following plot nuggets as something you'd like to see more of:

You want me to use a 10 point scale with 5 being the max?

Anyway, I'm just going to do what binarywraith did and list my top 5.

5. Corporate activity Corporate intrigue is core to any cyberpunk setting.
4. Great Dragons And dragon intrigues (along with other magical things) are what really separates Shadowrun from normal Cyberpunk.
3. Technomancers It'd be nice to see dissonance be a real threat after Crash 2.0
2. Toxic Spirits/Shamans It'd be nice to see these guys be a larger threat. Blood magic has an entire corporation. These guys used to have a dragon, but I guess Dragonfall fixed that problem back in the 50's without any Shadowtalkers knowing.
1. Artificial Intelligences More Matrix threats! I don't like how the Matrix can be so inconsequential.
Fatum
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 22 2014, 08:54 AM) *
On a 10 point scale, where you get 5 for most-wanted, 4 for next, then 3, 2, 1 and 0, rate the following plot nuggets as something you'd like to see more of
Great Dragons 0 - the metaplot lately has been nothing but the affairs of Great Dragons relaid in exquisite detail by the people who have precisely zero reason to know or share
Lesser Dragons 3 - not nearly mentioned and involved enough
Immortal Elves 1 - god, everyone hates these, but if done right, I think they can make for great behind-the-scenes movers and shakers. Still, unless it's something larger with their involvement, bleh.
Bugs 0 - tired old stuff, overdone.
The Horrors 4 - hell yes the Horrors!
The Black Lodge 0 - boring generic evil
Shedim 1 - boring possessing evil.
Infected 0 - you're doing it anyway, pfe.
Toxic Spirits/Shamans 4 - have been out of the focus for a while, a couple influential Toxics can really shake things up

Artificial Intelligences 5 - absolutely. Both super-AIs, metasapients and xenosapients! Don't just fixate on e-ghosts and cute electronic kittens.
Technomancers 3 - yes, but if it's something to do with Matrix mysticism, not straight-in-your-face nonsense like Geneva.
GOD 0 - these guys who are allowed everywhere for no reason at all? I wish they didn't exist as they do now.
Decker gangs 4

Corporate activity 4 - unless it's something ridiculous like Ares almost going bankrupt over a single failed assault rifle again
Government activity 2 - governments are pretty non-relevant, and should imo stay that way
Policlub activity 4 - good old staple of the genre
Criminal Organization activity 2 - tired of it a bit, frankly. "There's a syndicate war going on in X" has been overused since 1st ed.
Gang activity 4 - absolutely, there's a whole bunch of colourful gangs in the setting, why not put them to use?
Police activity 1
Military activity 1
Terrorism 1 - why separate it from the larger policlub activity?
Tribal activity 4 - yep! Do something with NAN! Maybe venture into South America or revisit the Caribbean at last!
Racial activity 0 - eh?

Unsolved mysteries 5 - just drop the idea that players are toddlers who have to be spoon-fed their info. Sometimes less is more, and when giving info on the darkest secrets of the setting, this is certainly the case.
Fatum
QUOTE (Sengir @ Sep 22 2014, 04:05 PM) *
But how does that storyline involve changing how bugs work?
Away from books now, but if I remember, the adventure that featured the players facing these had a whole page of rules changes for this particular nest of bugs.


QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 22 2014, 06:09 PM) *
Japanacorps unity and pushing into North America. Shiawase's surging under new leadership.
Ares internal power struggle.
NeoNET and MCT getting massive cash infusions with the wireless Matrix initiative.
Renraku's ongoing redesign.
Aztechnology's rising public image in the wake of the war with Sirrurg.
The rebuilding of Chicago.
CAS activity and military moves.
Uh, you see, none of these are plot hooks. You can't build a campaign or even a module based on these.
Hell, things like these happen all the time in the background: megacorps rise and fall in power, face internal and external conflict, gain or lose reputation. That might make the evening news, but it certainly is nothing to write home about.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 22 2014, 06:09 PM) *
Denver. Ghostwalker. Harlequin.
Hasn't that plotline been resolved? Besides, haven't yet met people who'd love all the three mentioned at once, much less the development in Storm Front.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 22 2014, 06:09 PM) *
Changes in the Infected.
Which are reasons to be moderately anxious for the Infected players, if anything.
binarywraith
What Infected players? As of present, they don't exist in SR5, and that is a good thing which is to be lauded. Same with the lack of AI PCs.
Fatum
Reasonable: it's always better to give these pesky players less options.
Sendaz
On the plus side, SPF750 products and the Triple Aluminized Wraparound Solar Glasses are selling real good now in some sectors.

10% discount for Tamanous clients and Next Day Before 1am deliveries are available in most areas.
binarywraith
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2014, 10:36 PM) *
Reasonable: it's always better to give these pesky players less options.


Nah, more on the lines of 'less inevitable PVP', because for some odd reason players get twitchy when their groupmates are cannibals by necessity.
Fatum
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 23 2014, 06:56 PM) *
Nah, more on the lines of 'less inevitable PVP', because for some odd reason players get twitchy when their groupmates are cannibals by necessity.
Given how many people runners kill on average, frankly, I fail to see the big issue if a couple of the bodies produced don't go to waste.

On a more serious note, how to treat the dietary requirement of their character or teammate is entirely up for your players to roleplay. Claiming that somehow denying them this opportunity makes for a better rulesystem seems extremely strange to me. You don't like this idea and don't trust your players' skills (same as you apparently don't trust them not to hog the spotlight if given the slightest chance) - so ban it at your table, why force your preferences upon the rest of the community?
Sendaz
Heh. Reminds me of a Wolf shapeshifter we ran with for a time. He was constantly riding one of the other runners because they were vegetarian.

Yeah, yeah we know a good chunk of most of our own diet is pretty much soy derived, but when meat was available it baffled him why someone wouldn't eat it.

He saw the runner as pretty much a prey animal, off limits of course since it was part of the team, but he treated them with little regard.

Went on for a few runs until the runner got fed up with it and basically threw down in a good old fashion bare handed brawl with the wolfie. He didn't win, but gave a good enough showing that he was treated like a junior pack mate instead of cattle.

Point is the GM could have nixed this scenario early on, simply by telling the wolfie to tone down the in-party drama and would have had it gotten out of hand. Likewise if the picked on player had really had an issue he would have taken it up with the player or GM OOC, but he took what was dealt and came up with a solution that resolved it while still keeping both sides in play.

We can see both sides of the argument when dealing with Infected, but the same can be said for just about any addiction as well. Another person here on the forums once mentioned they do not do runs with junkies/addicts of any sort for much the same reason. They didn't necessarily feel comfortable knowing one of their team mates might start jonesing at a bad time or worse be co-opted/turned while in severe need of a fix.

Wakshaani
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2014, 11:52 AM) *
Uh, you see, none of these are plot hooks. You can't build a campaign or even a module based on these.
Hell, things like these happen all the time in the background: megacorps rise and fall in power, face internal and external conflict, gain or lose reputation. That might make the evening news, but it certainly is nothing to write home about.


I think we have different definitions of plots/plot hooks then. Hrm. Not sure how to advance the conversation at this stage, which is puzzling. So, let's take one of the examples and break it down.

Axtechnology's rising popularity.

Here we get a grip on things that can start to have echoes. For instance, putting Aztech-styled fashion more to the front (feathers! Bright colors! WHee!) and Neo-Nuatl as a language that starts getting more airtime. Aztechnology media stars start popping up in more Trideo shows, and with them come accents and cultural norms that start to be passed around. Aztech food also gets pushed up a notch (Well, the style, since their own food banks are still thin), and there might be a push for more bloodsports after they've been seen in pirate broadcasts now that people are starting to look south. Aztechnology products, such as weapons and cyberdecks, start cropping up in 'runner hands, giving some new street flavors as well.

You also have Aztechnology johnsons working a bit more openly, taking the fight against "Inhuman" threats, like toxics (some of Sirrurg's followers perhaps?) or meddling in teh affairs fo dragons (NeoNET and Saeder-Krupp being the obvious targets). What about Shadowruns designed to shake the confidence in Ares and set forth Aztechnology gear as a better option? Aftr all, how many dragons has Damien Knight killed?

What other effects will there be with Aztechnology hailed as "The conquering hero" for a few years? What kinds of backlash will there be? How can this be turned into Shadowruns?

IMHO, this single incident can be turned into dozens of plot threads and scores of Shadowruns. That, to me, is one awesome plot hook. Your mileage varies. smile.gif

QUOTE
Hasn't that plotline been resolved? Besides, haven't yet met people who'd love all the three mentioned at once, much less the development in Storm Front.


Harlequin spent months building up allies and setting plans in motion before taking a shot at the king of Denver.

He failed to land a killing blow.

His allies came in and snuck him out, under the dragon's nose.

You think it ends there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py1WDlaIr9A
Sengir
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 22 2014, 06:52 PM) *
Away from books now, but if I remember, the adventure that featured the players facing these had a whole page of rules changes for this particular nest of bugs.

The original Threats 2 section had some extra rules on how inhabited paranormals work, that is all I can think of. Tthe author of Sacrificial Limb seemed to assume Inhabition works instantaneously, but that was not a conscious rule change wink.gif
binarywraith
QUOTE (Fatum @ Sep 23 2014, 09:57 AM) *
Given how many people runners kill on average, frankly, I fail to see the big issue if a couple of the bodies produced don't go to waste.

On a more serious note, how to treat the dietary requirement of their character or teammate is entirely up for your players to roleplay. Claiming that somehow denying them this opportunity makes for a better rulesystem seems extremely strange to me. You don't like this idea and don't trust your players' skills (same as you apparently don't trust them not to hog the spotlight if given the slightest chance) - so ban it at your table, why force your preferences upon the rest of the community?


Because it, like the current status quo of wireless, requires far far too much assumption of risk on the part of shadowrunners if we go with the assumption that everyone's usually okay with having infectious cannibals roaming around. HMHVV is a big, nasty bogeyman in universe for very good reasons.

Hell, they still can't manage to get people to fully accept that Orks and Trolls are people, and you want us to buy them giving ghouls rights? As if.
Fatum
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 23 2014, 08:57 PM) *
IMHO, this single incident can be turned into dozens of plot threads and scores of Shadowruns. That, to me, is one awesome plot hook. Your mileage varies. smile.gif
Frankly, I'm not sure what to say here. If this passes for "an awesome plot hook" for you that produces scores of Shadowruns, did the setting books like Vice or Corporate Guide produce tens of thousands? Because they had dozens of changes like that on every page.
As for me, a plot hook is something that gives you solid ideas for a run. Like, "Mitsuhama's strip-mining everything in Tsimshian, the ethnic tensions are at the all-time high, so the government declares war upon the SSC to contain the issue". See, there's obvious action going on, power players are in motion, and runners can hitch a ride on that motion. That is, now that we're given that info, runners can be given jobs against MCT by some deep green activists, the local counter-intelligence will hire them to put pressure onto the ethnic minorities, etcetera - these are all plot elements given to us in a couple of pages of an old sourcebook and letting us add something new to the campaign. The rise in Aztechnology popularity lets me add what, "some Aztechnology runs"? For all I know, I could do that all by myself already, without that precious bit of setting info on my lap.
Compare and contrast that to, say, the Yucatan rebellion, or the many magical threats and possibilities found in the old Atzlan book, or the references to AZT in Dunkelzahn's Will.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 23 2014, 08:57 PM) *
You think it ends there?
Frankly? I don't think of it at all.
I don't like how Harlequin has been used from, well, just about the very beginning, I don't enjoy Denver as a setting, or the whole Ghostwalker storyline.
So yeah, if that's something that hasn't been finished yet, cool. I guess.


QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 24 2014, 12:48 AM) *
Because it, like the current status quo of wireless, requires far far too much assumption of risk on the part of shadowrunners if we go with the assumption that everyone's usually okay with having infectious cannibals roaming around. HMHVV is a big, nasty bogeyman in universe for very good reasons.
So having a pack of serial murderers and career criminals surround you at all times is much better if none of them are infectious cannibals, then?

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 24 2014, 12:48 AM) *
Hell, they still can't manage to get people to fully accept that Orks and Trolls are people, and you want us to buy them giving ghouls rights? As if.
Hello, last I checked, we're in the 70ies, not the 50ies.
Hell, the Cabrini Refuge was established well before even these.
Sengir
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 23 2014, 10:48 PM) *
Because it, like the current status quo of wireless, requires far far too much assumption of risk on the part of shadowrunners if we go with the assumption that everyone's usually okay with having infectious cannibals roaming around.

The typical runner team is nothing but a pack of murderers acting for their personal gain. The members apparently do not have moral problems with that way of making their livelihood, nor does it lead to "inevitable PVP".


Now, racism and other -isms don't need a good reason, so it's certainly possible that the shadow community hates ghouls no matter what. But hating ghouls is not something absolutely required by logic unless we massively suspend our disbelief.
binarywraith
Wow. I think a couple of you have pretty different takes on the morality of Shadowrunning than I generally see...
Fatum
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 24 2014, 05:36 AM) *
Wow. I think a couple of you have pretty different takes on the morality of Shadowrunning than I generally see...
Do you think shooting people in the face for money morally defensible?
binarywraith
Generally, it's part of doing business, but I also don't think the fiction or fluff supports that your average shadowrunner is a hardened wetworker with no remorse.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 24 2014, 06:37 PM) *
Generally, it's part of doing business, but I also don't think the fiction or fluff supports that your average shadowrunner is a hardened wetworker with no remorse.

No but there are still a lot of Street Sams who enjoy killing people in the fluff.

Which is worse, the vampire who regretfully kills people because he has to to live, or the Street Sam who does it because that's how he gets his kicks?
binarywraith
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Sep 24 2014, 09:31 PM) *
No but there are still a lot of Street Sams who enjoy killing people in the fluff.


There are, and generally even their best friends and teammates do not trust them fully and regard them as sociopathic aberrations. See again Kid Stealth, who makes his best friend and blood brother Wolf nervous as hell for just that reason.

QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Sep 24 2014, 09:31 PM) *
Which is worse, the vampire who regretfully kills people because he has to to live, or the Street Sam who does it because that's how he gets his kicks?


Objectively the vampire in Shadowrun terms, because the Awakened can quantify the human spirit (ie Essence) and perceive its destruction in the feeding of an Infected. Not to mention the bit where the Sam's a crazy human being at the end of the day and the vampire is quite literally unnatural.
JesterZero
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 25 2014, 12:32 AM) *
Objectively the vampire in Shadowrun terms, because the Awakened can quantify the human spirit (ie Essence) and perceive its destruction in the feeding of an Infected.

Using that logic, creatures that have an essence greater than 6 (high force spirits, great dragons, etc.) have more "human spirit" than actual humans.
Fatum
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 25 2014, 04:37 AM) *
Generally, it's part of doing business, but I also don't think the fiction or fluff supports that your average shadowrunner is a hardened wetworker with no remorse.
They are still serial murderers who make it their profession, whatever their feelings on the issue.

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 25 2014, 11:32 AM) *
Objectively the vampire in Shadowrun terms, because the Awakened can quantify the human spirit (ie Essence) and perceive its destruction in the feeding of an Infected. Not to mention the bit where the Sam's a crazy human being at the end of the day and the vampire is quite literally unnatural.
So, when a runner kills someone without consuming their Essence, that's somehow better? Why?
Also, where the sam is a human being with a psychiatric disease, the vampire is a human being with HMHVV. Is the vampire principally different simply for his virus being Awakened?
Sengir
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Sep 25 2014, 05:31 AM) *
or the Street Sam who does it because that's how he gets his kicks?

Even if he doesn't do it for kicks: "I had to shoot that guy, he wanted to stop me from burglarizing the place" or "if that guard had lived, he would have talked" are anything but mitigating circumstances.
Ixal
A bit late to the party, but...

Great Dragons - 1 Let the topic rest for a while (maybe an update on Hestaby, but thats all)
Lesser Dragons - 1 See above
Immortal Elves - 0 (There are others besides Harl?)
Bugs - 2 (Always a fallback, but it would be nice to finally have a other enemy people like)
The Horrors - 2 (Imo too 1 dimensional evil)
The Black Lodge - 0 (Generic and would tie back into Great Dragons again)
Shedim - 1 (Enough possession things already)
Infected - 2 (Too many Vampires in todays media already...)
Toxic Spirits/Shamans - 3 (Have been underused a bit)

Artificial Intelligences - 2 (Not a fan)
Technomancers - 2 ( Technocritters? Really?)
GOD - 2 (A bit too god like in my eyes)
Decker gangs - 4 (Good way to brush up the matrix side of the game)

Corporate activity - 4 (The heart and soul of cyberpunk)
Government activity - 4 (More Brackhaven please)
Policlub activity - 4 (Always good as Johnson/Opponent)
Criminal Organization activity - 3 (We had a steady stream of it, so keep it at that level)
Gang activity - 5 (Very underused)
Police activity - 3 (Most would be response to gang activity or part of corporates)
Military activity - 0 (Yawn. Nothing to do for Shadowrunners)
Terrorism - 2 (Eco terrorism etc. should always be a thing, but lets focus on less black/white things for a while)
Tribal activity - 4 (Unique part of Shadowrun needs a bit more love)
Racial activity - 4 (Setting has been a bit too much sunshine and butterflies for a cyberpunk in my eyes lately. I am looking at you Evo...)

Unsolved mysteries - 3 (Throw some of them in as inspiration from time to time)
SpellBinder
Regarding the Immortal Elves, yes, there are more, though one of them died when Ghostwalker closed the D.C. rift in '73.

And I agree about the technocritters. Techomanceres among just metahumanity made enough sense, but the existence of technocritters is something that sounds like pure handwavium, and are something that will never exist in any game I run or fiction I write. If anything gets retconned out of existence, I'd wholly support it be the technocritters.
Sengir
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Oct 13 2014, 10:16 AM) *
but the existence of technocritters is something that sounds like pure handwavium, and are something that will never exist in any game I run or fiction I write. If anything gets retconned out of existence, I'd wholly support it be the technocritters.

Given how many technocritters have so far appeared outside RW, I'd say they are already dying a silent death...
Not of this World
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 21 2014, 08:54 PM) *
I have a few irons in the fire myself, with nary a bit of magic or possession in the mix. It's still the opening salvo of 5th edition gang, just over a year into release. Give stories a chance to rev up. smile.gif

Heck, while we're here, I'll drop a quick survey for you.

On a 10 point scale, where you get 5 for most-wanted, 4 for next, then 3, 2, 1 and 0, rate the following plot nuggets as something you'd like to see more of:


Okay this thread is old but I just noticed it so apologies for the thread Necromancy. I wanted to take my stab at answering this

1) GOD
2) Immortal Elves
3) Tribal activity
4) Lesser Dragons
5) Toxic Spirits/Shamans

With Honorable mention to police activity.
Also please not new AIs or Great Dragons. AIs are too common and Great Dragons overdone. Dragons need to get taken down a peg just as the Immortal Elves once were.

Also, I'd like to see some new things particularly as a resurgence on old themes. Ancient Folk lore & Myths (Celtic, Babylonian, etc) having modern magical relevance.
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