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DamienKnight
This question was asked last year, about preference. I am curious if preferences have changed. Also curious about, outside of preference, how many are actually playing active games and in what versions.
Medicineman
I definitely prefer SR4A
I'm playing currently in two SR4A and 1 SR5 Rounds and another SR5 Round is about to form
When I'm at a conventions its mostly SR4A that I'm playing


Hough!
Medicineman
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
SR4A is by far my Preferred System Edition.
Playing SR5/SR4A, dependent upon GM (Primary/Secondary).
Uli
I'm narrating a 4A group and I like it a lot, although it requires a lot of work/background knowledge/crunchy stuff for the whole group.
Jaid
heh, well if these statistics are anything close to accurate (which is not by any means an assured thing), catalyst should definitely be taking note nyahnyah.gif

not that i expect them to actually respond to it, mind you. that would involve admitting their new version isn't all that great.


(of course, it's also possible they've actually done some research of their own and have reason to believe otherwise... but honestly, i doubt they actually bothered checking with their fans at all).
Uli
If I get to read through my 5e book from cover to cover, I might consider switching after my cyborg campaign has ended. It's always easier to have limited books and crunch for beginners. smile.gif
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 23 2014, 04:00 PM) *
heh, well if these statistics are anything close to accurate (which is not by any means an assured thing), catalyst should definitely be taking note nyahnyah.gif
I think they might have already considering that the latest batch of books have some material that is split between SR4a & SR5 and aren't all 100% exclusively SR5.
psychophipps
SR4/4A here as well. Best SR ruleset I have seen yet.
Critias
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 23 2014, 08:27 PM) *
I think they might have already considering that the latest batch of books have some material that is split between SR4a & SR5 and aren't all 100% exclusively SR5.

Trying to stay out of the argument/whatever for a minute, but just FYI, the material that's been released lately (that's compatible with both editions) is stuff that was in the pipeline for SR4A, and was at/near completion, and then they took the time to make it compatible with SR5 to make sure folks could still get some use out of once the new edition hit. No one wants to write a "lame duck" sourcebook. What it certainly isn't is CGL somehow backpedaling and pretending the new edition was never released, or something.
SpellBinder
Ah well, wishful thinking. spin.gif
Blade
I haven't played much recently. I've answered I prefer SR4/SR4A but truth to be told I actually prefer a heavily houseruled SR4A that is getting further and further away from SR4, and while some of these houserules address issues "fixed" in SR5, my fixes are very different (and in my opinion better) from the ones in SR5, so I don't see any point in switching to SR5.
Surukai
SR5 has done many things right, short list from the top of my head:

1. melee being useful (it is utter crud in SR4, totally broken).
2. Direct spells fixed
3. automatic fire fixed
4. regular guns do damage now instead of gimmick autofire SnS being only option.
5. Niche protection on matrix and to some extent drones.
6. Critters and dragons are actually dangerous without fudging their stats
7. Greatly reduced extended tests and bookkeeping.
8. Getting gear doesn't take months
9. Some diminishing returns on high dice pools via limits.

The list of things done right in SR5 is long!

Sadly, it is still not fully thought through and has a lot of holes in it. Navigating the book is a nightmare (why are drugs and foci not listed in gear but in some random page in the middle? Make buying stuff hard for example). And some concepts are completely waste of space, while others are just broken or pathetic. I'm thinking of aoe attacks, grenade damage, mystic adepts, to some extent alchemy,

SR4 is not that good. Matrix is broken (pirated software makes anyone a hacker and everyone got maxed out everything for no cost at all), Melee have never worked at all, perfect oneshot spells and attacks are way too easy to get and everyone always hits (defence is useless, not even Reaction 9 can stop even a mook from hitting every time), the meta of SR4 with the horrible splatbooks (expecially the matrix one) made the game pretty boring. It was so easy to get Dicepool of 20 in anything that it became de facto standard to have 20 or near 20 in everything to simply ignore what the world is about.
GM: "The ninja has good cover"
Player: "Whatever, +4 to his reaction won't matter, I got some 10+ dice advantage over his defences anyway. 9 hits, how does it take 23P AP -half? Thought so..."

You didn't even need to gimmick or take obscure things. 20 in anything came natural for even the most basic of characters. IT was so readily available that everyone got it, not just the super-optimizing munch-kins.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jun 24 2014, 02:48 AM) *
You didn't even need to gimmick or take obscure things. 20 in anything came natural for even the most basic of characters. IT was so readily available that everyone got it, not just the super-optimizing munch-kins.


Take exception to this... Played MANY characters, some into the High 400's of Karma, and NONE of them had 20 Dice in ANYTHING. So please, do not lump me into your "Everyone does it " category, as that is simply not true.
nezumi
Still playing SR3R. Still loving it. I prefer the SR3 ruleset, but the SR2 books. Not sure how to vote on that nyahnyah.gif

I try SR5 at conventions and enjoy it, but not enough for me to want to pay for it.
AccessControl
Not sure how much vote weight I should have...

I've only really experienced SR4A and SR5, and I've only really played SR5. I tried to run SR4A for a bit, but I couldn't get enough people to keep a game together past a single session.

I think SR5 has SOME bits that are cleaned up compared to SR4A, and I much prefer SR5's Matrix interpretation (apart from the weird things they did to Technomancers), however there are some things that look more polished in SR4A. I attribute that to the fact that SR5 is new and has very little in terms of errata right now, plus a combination of my only reading a bunch of stuff and not yet seeing how it works in practice.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (AccessControl @ Jun 24 2014, 07:19 AM) *
Not sure how much vote weight I should have...

I've only really experienced SR4A and SR5, and I've only really played SR5. I tried to run SR4A for a bit, but I couldn't get enough people to keep a game together past a single session.

I think SR5 has SOME bits that are cleaned up compared to SR4A, and I much prefer SR5's Matrix interpretation (apart from the weird things they did to Technomancers), however there are some things that look more polished in SR4A. I attribute that to the fact that SR5 is new and has very little in terms of errata right now, plus a combination of my only reading a bunch of stuff and not yet seeing how it works in practice.


Heh, Heh... You said Errata. That's Funny
Medicineman
oh, by the way, I was bold and started the same Poll in Germany smile.gif
Im curious to compare both results

with a bold Dance
Medicineman
AccessControl
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 24 2014, 09:33 AM) *
Heh, Heh... You said Errata. That's Funny


I know, I'm such a kidder. I should really reign in my wit, lest I accidentally send someone into convulsions.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jun 24 2014, 05:48 AM) *
SR5 has done many things right, short list from the top of my head:
[snip]
The list of things done right in SR5 is long!


The cool part is that all of those changes can be ported into SR4 biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 24 2014, 09:25 AM) *
The cool part is that all of those changes can be ported into SR4 biggrin.gif


Indeed... smile.gif
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jun 24 2014, 02:48 AM) *
SR5 has done many things right, short list from the top of my head:

1. melee being useful (it is utter crud in SR4, totally broken).
2. Direct spells fixed
3. automatic fire fixed
4. regular guns do damage now instead of gimmick autofire SnS being only option.
5. Niche protection on matrix and to some extent drones.
6. Critters and dragons are actually dangerous without fudging their stats
7. Greatly reduced extended tests and bookkeeping.
8. Getting gear doesn't take months
9. Some diminishing returns on high dice pools via limits.

...
Some of the elements of SR5 I ported into an SR4a campaign, and they worked out very good. I also discussed with the players about the differences on Direct spells and their mechanics between SR4a & SR5 before starting, and all of them agreed to use the SR4a version as opposed to the SR5 rules, and only one of them was playing a magician.
Sengir
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jun 24 2014, 11:48 AM) *
SR5 has done many things right, short list from the top of my head:

1. melee being useful (it is utter crud in SR4, totally broken).
2. Direct spells fixed
3. automatic fire fixed
4. regular guns do damage now instead of gimmick autofire SnS being only option.
5. Niche protection on matrix and to some extent drones.
6. Critters and dragons are actually dangerous without fudging their stats
7. Greatly reduced extended tests and bookkeeping.
8. Getting gear doesn't take months
9. Some diminishing returns on high dice pools via limits.

The list of things done right in SR5 is long!

...but the list of things fixed for worse is just as long (and often facepalm-provoking). It's not godawful but not an improvement, either, so the bottom line is that I'm not seeing any gain from switching editions.


I'd also contend that point 8. is not a feature of the edition itself, but merely of the lack of expansion books (and accordingly smaller item count) for now. And since CGL is firmly committed to the new old concept of spreading core gear of dozens of books, it will probably end up being worse.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 24 2014, 07:14 AM) *
Take exception to this... Played MANY characters, some into the High 400's of Karma, and NONE of them had 20 Dice in ANYTHING. So please, do not lump me into your "Everyone does it " category, as that is simply not true.


+100 here!

When Rob-fucking-Leatham, probably the best all-around shooter alive tosses 12 dice (Agility 5, Skill 7), where IN THE FUCK does "gotta have 15+ dice or you ain't shit" even enter the damn equation?
Draco18s
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 24 2014, 03:53 PM) *
where IN THE FUCK does "gotta have 15+ dice or you ain't shit" even enter the damn equation?


When trying to figure out why 12 dice is the best you can ever be, when the system, mechanically, doesn't support that.

(Also, he's the best ever............without any technomagical aids)
Stahlseele
TECHNICALLY, i still play SR3.
Realistically, i guess i am going more into what CanRay plays.

Also, if you can get your attribute alone up to 11(elf at least can if i am not misremembering in which direction the rounding falls), then yes, i have no idea why 12 should be the best shooter in the world.
And that 11 is already two thirds of what you consider to be a big pool with 15 dice and still one half of what you consider a too big pool at 20 dice.
It's just how the system works.
In SR3, yeah, i would completely agree with you that dice-pools of 12 and above are overkill, but in SR4 (and probably 5), no, it simply does not hold true.
SpellBinder
You guys are making me more seriously consider one or two of the "Cinematic Gameplay" optional rules presented in the SR4a book, where hits are on a 4+ instead of a 5+ and/or the one where the Rule Of Six applies on all dice rolls.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 24 2014, 01:55 PM) *
When trying to figure out why 12 dice is the best you can ever be, when the system, mechanically, doesn't support that.

(Also, he's the best ever............without any technomagical aids)


Since we seem to be on Jurassic Park quotes, "Yeah, yeah, but your scientists (players) were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

If the best all-around shooter in the world shoots with 12 dice unaided which means a typical roll of 4 hits, pretty much meaning that he can casually make a "Hard" Threshold (SR4A pg 62) shot at any time. We're talking headshots here. All...day...long. In fact, about he only variable to worry about is how good the target is at moving out of the way when it's getting capped at by a semi-auto handgun that sounds more like a submachinegun cranking off short bursts by a guy that can reload in the time it takes to say "reload".

So you have a dice pool of 20. That's 6 hits pretty much guaranteed (Extreme Threshold, same page) and 7 about 2/3 of the time. So fucking what? You never, ever miss. There isn't anyone better. There is zero challenge unless the GM whips out the Because God Says So and starts slapping you around with it. BOOOORIIIING!

I'm sorry, but some players cut their nut by being able to auto-win against anything in the books, but I'm certainly not one of them. I want the Red Sammies and Ghosts to be someone to worry about, thanks. Bulldog was a complete Death Machine ™ and I purposefully topped him off at 16 dice, including the full +2 for Reach with a Combat Axe. When the hell is casually getting 5 hits going to be "Close, but no cigar!" without the GM having to haul out some ridiculous wankery?

It's your games, but I simply don't see the point...
CaptRory
Doesn't specializing that much make your character brittle as well? If you can't do X in a given situation you're pretty screwed.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 24 2014, 05:25 PM) *
Since we seem to be on Jurassic Park quotes, "Yeah, yeah, but your scientists (players) were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

If the best all-around shooter in the world shoots with 12 dice unaided which means a typical roll of 4 hits, pretty much meaning that he can casually make a "Hard" Threshold (SR4A pg 62) shot at any time. We're talking headshots here. All...day...long. In fact, about he only variable to worry about is how good the target is at moving out of the way when it's getting capped at by a semi-auto handgun that sounds more like a submachinegun cranking off short bursts by a guy that can reload in the time it takes to say "reload".

So you have a dice pool of 20. That's 6 hits pretty much guaranteed (Extreme Threshold, same page) and 7 about 2/3 of the time. So fucking what? You never, ever miss. There isn't anyone better. There is zero challenge unless the GM whips out the Because God Says So and starts slapping you around with it. BOOOORIIIING!

I'm sorry, but some players cut their nut by being able to auto-win against anything in the books, but I'm certainly not one of them. I want the Red Sammies and Ghosts to be someone to worry about, thanks. Bulldog was a complete Death Machine ™ and I purposefully topped him off at 16 dice, including the full +2 for Reach with a Combat Axe. When the hell is casually getting 5 hits going to be "Close, but no cigar!" without the GM having to haul out some ridiculous wankery?

It's your games, but I simply don't see the point...


Yeah, I have never understood that particular design philosophy all that much. Maybe after the character reaches 500 Karma or so, I can see a character getting there. But right out of the Box? No thanks.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CaptRory @ Jun 24 2014, 05:45 PM) *
Doesn't specializing that much make your character brittle as well? If you can't do X in a given situation you're pretty screwed.


Sometimes... Depends upon how hard you hit that specialization. I have seen some builds that go over 30, 40 and even 50 Dice. But after you hit 20 Dice, I don't really see the point all that much.
Draco18s
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 24 2014, 08:25 PM) *
If the best all-around shooter in the world shoots with 12 dice unaided which means a typical roll of 4 hits, pretty much meaning that he can casually make a "Hard" Threshold (SR4A pg 62) shot at any time. We're talking headshots here. All...day...long.


No, I mean that the system mechanically makes no sense for 12 to be the absolute best at something.

For two reasons:
1) Average people crash cars driving to the store (Reaction 3, 0 Drive: 2 dice vs. Thresholds of 1)
2) Any metatype with a natural boost to Agility hits that "supposed peak" sooner and then blows past it.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 24 2014, 08:31 PM) *
No, I mean that the system mechanically makes no sense for 12 to be the absolute best at something.

For two reasons:
1) Average people crash cars driving to the store (Reaction 3, 0 Drive: 2 dice vs. Thresholds of 1)
2) Any metatype with a natural boost to Agility hits that "supposed peak" sooner and then blows past it.


The first happens all the damn time. In fact, you're statistically more likely to get hit driving to the store because, well...it's "just driving to the store" and you're more likely to not be fully engaged in what you're doing.

The second would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that a character has to be built that way on purpose. There is absolutely nothing except player choice that makes the higher Agility metatypes have a 6+ Agility score, no rule in any of the SR books every printed that states, "You must put a minimum of 4 stat points/40 build points into the Agility-equivalent stat beyond the racial minimums to play this metatype." Yes, you can blow past the 12 dice cap, but you don't have to.

That said, I realize fully that with bio, cyber, and magic it's not hard at all to treat the 12 dice limit like a $2 whore. My point is that when it comes to an "effective starting character" in the character's shtick, there shouldn't an immediate sprint to be better than a gawdamn Olympian at it. A rating 6 whatever is the top of line, it shouldn't casually be anyone's bitch...ever.
pbangarth
I play 4A because that's what I was in when the switch to 5 happened, and the story is still rolling!

Also, I kinda like some of the character types available in 4A but not yet in 5. Waiting for more books before I sink money into a new edition.

:
:
:
:

Maybe I'll just wait till SR6. (Really? do I need to put an emoticon here??)
Medicineman
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 24 2014, 12:25 PM) *
The cool part is that all of those changes can be ported into SR4 biggrin.gif


LOL Muahahahaha grinbig.gif rotfl.gif biggrin.gif
thanks, that made my Day today

I just started a new Table with new players for SR5 but maybe next Year I'll start one that's base SR4A with infusion of (usefull) SR5 Rules & changes to improve 4A even more

with a happy Dance today
Medicineman
Sendaz
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 24 2014, 12:25 PM) *
The cool part is that all of those changes can be ported into SR4 biggrin.gif

Does that become SR4/5 then? nyahnyah.gif

Or SR4B?
Medicineman
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 25 2014, 04:07 AM) *
Does that become SR4/5 then? nyahnyah.gif

Or SR4B?

Either 4.5A
or 4A++
or New & improved 4A
(I like 4.5A)

with a new & improved Dance
Medicineman
Uli
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 25 2014, 10:12 AM) *
Either 4.5A
or 4A++
or New & improved 4A
(I like 4.5A)

Pathfinder? biggrin.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Uli @ Jun 25 2014, 06:07 AM) *
Pathfinder? biggrin.gif

Get a Rope
Draco18s
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 24 2014, 11:35 PM) *
The first happens all the damn time. In fact, you're statistically more likely to get hit driving to the store because, well...it's "just driving to the store" and you're more likely to not be fully engaged in what you're doing.


Yes, that's certainly when it happens, but that's not what I said is it.

I said almost everybody will crash almost every time. And that's the average guy! Get drunk and you start taking dice pool penalties!

Basically the system says that drunk drivers will self-select out of the population on account of driving off a bridge the first time they do it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 25 2014, 04:44 AM) *
Yes, that's certainly when it happens, but that's not what I said is it.

I said almost everybody will crash almost every time. And that's the average guy! Get drunk and you start taking dice pool penalties!

Basically the system says that drunk drivers will self-select out of the population on account of driving off a bridge the first time they do it.


You do not roll for everyday common uses of the Drive Skill (that is the default assumption of the world, thus the Skill 0). So your point is pretty pointless. smile.gif
Draco18s
Do you need to roll if you're impaired on account of being drunk?

Almost certainly. smile.gif
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 25 2014, 02:12 AM) *
Either 4.5A
or 4A++
or New & improved 4A
(I like 4.5A)

with a new & improved Dance
Medicineman
I call mine SR4a.5
tete
I prefer SR2 but play 3 and 4A,

While I like the 4A rules alot I have a few things I dont like. My biggest beef I cant actually play my long time uncybered no magic face. Because he had charisma 6 (human) and a negotiation skill over 20 last I played him in 3e. Heck even pistols was over 10 but hes got like 700 or 800 karma by now and hes mostly a social specialist with a couple exceptions. Everything is fixable with a house rule though.
nezumi
QUOTE (tete @ Jun 25 2014, 11:07 PM) *
While I like the 4A rules alot I have a few things I dont like. My biggest beef I cant actually play my long time uncybered no magic face. Because he had charisma 6 (human) and a negotiation skill over 20 last I played him in 3e. Heck even pistols was over 10 but hes got like 700 or 800 karma by now and hes mostly a social specialist with a couple exceptions. Everything is fixable with a house rule though.


Vigo, is that you?

I remember a character like that. Human, no implants whatsoever, no magic, mediocre armor, and the guy still rocked it (SR3, core book only).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 26 2014, 07:19 AM) *
Vigo, is that you?

I remember a character like that. Human, no implants whatsoever, no magic, mediocre armor, and the guy still rocked it (SR3, core book only).


I have an SR4A Mercenary like that, and He rocks it too, just not with 20+ Dice. smile.gif
Stahlseele
In SR4, 20 dice ain't that impressive.
In SR3, 20 dice is one hell of a lot!
ESPECIALLY for a completely unaugmented character.
Starting skills go to 6 or 5/7 with specialization.
And then there are some Augmentatons and Adept stuff that can add to that.
But a starting character, aside from a specialist adept, SELDOM has more than 8 dice to roll for anything.
Most people don't bother raising skills above attribute, because then the karma cost gets very expensive.
At 18 skill he was paying new skill level x3 or so in karma per level.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jun 24 2014, 03:48 AM) *
SR5 has done many things right, short list from the top of my head:

1. melee being useful (it is utter crud in SR4, totally broken).


I meant to ask earlier, but could you elaborate a bit here?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 26 2014, 10:50 AM) *
In SR4, 20 dice ain't that impressive.
In SR3, 20 dice is one hell of a lot!
ESPECIALLY for a completely unaugmented character.
Starting skills go to 6 or 5/7 with specialization.
And then there are some Augmentatons and Adept stuff that can add to that.
But a starting character, aside from a specialist adept, SELDOM has more than 8 dice to roll for anything.
Most people don't bother raising skills above attribute, because then the karma cost gets very expensive.
At 18 skill he was paying new skill level x3 or so in karma per level.


20 Dice is 20 Dice, regardless of edition, in my opinion. 20 Dice in SR4A goes about the same distance as in SR3, in my opinion, since TN 5 was about the average overall TN (for the most part), until you became wounded or were trying something extremely hard. Once you went above TN 5, SR2/3 starts to suffer a lot (though they were far more efficient when the TN's dropped below 5). smile.gif

Yeah, I had a Troll Ganger Gutter Punk turned Samurai who was boasting close to 20 dice in SR3 (after about 200 Karma or so, though he was an Adept if memory serves). smile.gif
Mechanics were different then... while it is impressive, when your targets are 9's, it becomes less so than if your targets are 2's. smile.gif

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jun 26 2014, 12:28 PM) *
I meant to ask earlier, but could you elaborate a bit here?


Indeed, since I have played many a Melee specialist that was feared in SR4A. Your tactics do definitely change a bit (so that you don't die prior to engaging in melee), but Melee Specialists are still very viable. smile.gif
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 26 2014, 01:42 PM) *
Indeed, since I have played many a Melee specialist that was feared in SR4A. Your tactics do definitely change a bit (so that you don't die prior to engaging in melee), but Melee Specialists are still very viable. smile.gif


Pretty much my take on this as well. To be honest, just about every "Total Carnage!" moment in my 4th games was with a melee specialist
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