If I kill off the rest of the team, then I'm screwing them over for someone else's choice. That's not just unfair, that's unfun, and against the whole reason I play games.


But that's what fake SINs are for. People with Criminal SINs are capable of offsetting their penalties with them, so corp SINs should be about the same. It also depends somewhat on the roleplay: if they faked their death convincingly, they would have more time to ditch and switch SINs.

Distinctive style is something which makes the person recognizable, not something people might remember after having recognized that person. The closest alternative quality would be Bad Rep, which is worth all of 7 Karma (and three points of Notoriety, but there are zero modifiers for Notoriety or lack thereof).


My houserule is based on thinking a bit about the SIN system: If feeding a DNA sample into the GSR (Global SIN Registry) and getting the perp's SIN was a thing, having a fake SIN would be impossible. Which would not just be bad for runners, when Ares registers their new hotshot scientist Don Joe with the GSR, they don't want the system to realize that his biometrics look really similar to Hans Schmustermann, who went missing from an SK lab last week. The only way (that I see) this system could conceivably work is if the GSR only answers one simple question: "Does [SIN] match [biometrics], yes or no?"

This means being a SINner is a (small) positive quality, because it gives the character an honest-to-god SIN, something millions cannot afford. Even people not actually using their real SIN might appreciate it some day, because when push comes to shove, you can prove to be a person in the eyes of the system and not just some state- and rightless entity -- though it might mean answering some hard questions about where you spent the decade since that SIN was last used.

If you want to represent a former employer or jailer having a file on the character, take Records on File. These records are not hogtied the way SINs are and can be matched to a crime scene, that's why it's a negative quality.

House's Razor applies to most Party Threat situations. It seems your objections are based in any Player making a character choice or having a background that would effect anything in play in a setting where the trope is filled with such things. If that's the way your table works then fine, but pretty much all the groups I GM and have GMed for take these things because they know they'll see them come up in game. They'll get a chance to interact with their dark secrets and deadly pasts, have a shot at finding out a bigger story that ties to the backgrounds they put together and they know there is a risk which while they know about OOC they are trying to realise or spot IC.

the problem comes when my choices are screwing over everyone else.

*i* decided to have a corporate SIN. none of the other players decided for me to have a corporate SIN. just me.

if that quality immediately screws over everyone at the table and shoves *my* decisions in *their* face, there is a problem with the quality. this isn't about expecting the quality to come into play or not. it's about the fact that the only ways the quality can realistically come into play such that it would be worth more than a regular SINner quality are ways that screw over everyone else, too.

and that simply is not something that should exist, at least, not as a personal quality. if there was some sort of "group negative quality" option, then that would be fine, under the assumption that everyone in the group had at least some degree of input on the subject.

Character creation is advised to be done within the group that is to play. Ultimately there is nothing that garuantees a Corp SIN quality has to play out the way I and others use it, or that it even as to directly impact on the rest of the team (arguably an efficient action against the character wouldn't need to involve an entire Runner team). However the "my choice screws everyone over" argument doesn't hold up because at any given moment of the game some flaw that you've taken, some skill points you spent differently, some conversation or action you case to role play in a certain way can spell the beginning of a TPK.

I've seen a character with a Perception based flaw nearly get the team killed because he missed a visual cue to a threat. I've seen the Mage actually get the team killed because he wasn't designed as a close combatant. I've seen several characters tell the wrong person the wrong thing and characters died. There are plenty of stories from plenty of tables. Heck, the Team could even turn on the Corp character, maybe they'd be split on it if they found out, sometimes PvP can be fun. Time was when sometimes characters would be a bit edgy around everyone else because maybe they could only trust each other so far, that's why they have Runner Identities after all with the code or street names. Perhaps you could trust them to help you survive your past, perhaps they'd sell you out for a quick payday... And this was the other characters. The players would have fun with it roleplaying these things, paranoia notes getting passed around, threats that betrayal would mean no cup of tea.

Now it seems things are more... Bland? Sterile? The types of challenges that seemed to be prevalent and a massive part of the game are now viewed with horror. Characters made cool stories but also died along the way, sometimes horribly and often because of House's Razor (I like the term) and usually not through their own fault. Bigger stories grew from it, new plot arcs emerged and player led plot came to the fore. It seems increasingly that Teams or Parties never spend time away from each other, they have to trust each other implicitly, the only threats or story they face are as part of the Run or connected to it in some way.

The Corp SIN allows for this classic trope of the Shadowrun and Cyberpunk theme and yes it can bring heat down on the team, but odds are the other Team members choices, histories, backgrounds and so forth will do similar. It gives some karma for having what people used to just declare as part of their back stories and yes, if you're a Sam Verner with a Johnny Mnemonic twist, yeah it's worth 25pts.

You can have as many fake SINs as you like, the corp has your real SIN on file and once they connect you to it (DNA, facial recognition, etc.) they know everything about you and can most likely weed your current fake persona out very quickly by comparing buying patterns, habits, matrix behavior, etc. with their collected data (unless you manage to become a completely different person and change all that).

Another downside is that the corp likely won't consider you a neutral expendable asset. You are either an asset and expected to give the corp some cuts when running for them out of old loyalities or just because as repayment for the corp not killing you when you bailed or you are a threat with insider knowledge which needs to be neutralized when convenient.
Other parties might also be interested in that insider knowledge and not all of them ask nicely. You can turn that into an advantage and sell this knowledge, but that will prove the corp right and move you up the hit list once they find out.

there's a difference between the possibility that someone will fail a roll and cause problems as compared to the possibility that someone will simply cause problems by existing.

it's one thing to not be able to rely on your team for perfect performance. that goes without saying. not every member of your team will be amazing at everything they do, and it's not reasonable to expect them to be an expert in every field. it's another thing to have to randomly expect a corporate HTR or special forces team could show up at any moment with overwhelming force because they decided that now is the time to throw good money after bad and go after a member of your team for reasons that have absolutely nothign to do with the rest of the team whatsoever.

you can have the guy with terrible perception not take point so that someone else has a chance to spot traps and ambushes. you can have the guy with poor melee skills stay near the team members with good melee skills. what are you going to do to help cope with the guy who randomly gets the whole team murdered just for existing? pre-paid funerals?

You're a Shadowrunner, that possibility already exists. Taking the Neg Quality just means there is a increased chance of it happening to you, if you're team gets involved in your life, or if you all hang around together then it means an increased chance of it catching them in the crossfire. Of course, a Runner team around you could equally dissuade an opposing Runner Team from attempting the extraction or hit, or give better protection if it happens.

The same things apply if someone is playing a Technomancer or if you're a MetaHuman in the wrong neighbourhood (or worse a Poseur!) but it's less likely to be seen and the attention it draws a lot clearer or more easily anticipated, so no bonus karma (except the poseur of course). The Addictions can get a team slotted, combat paralysis can get the team slotted. But in all the games I've played and the more I've run, those big Flaws, the Dark Secrets etc have always led on to interesting RP, tense encounters but never more than the occasional death. It's always the smaller stuff, the incidental flaw anyone can take without really thinking much of it that gets everyone (or nearly everyone) dead. The big flaws are worth the points because they bring big disadvantage and big threat, but the character with those flaws pays attention to them (or the Team does if they get an inkling there's a problem) and so the problems are anticipated for when they happen (with a few exceptions along the way). No one ever worries about their incidental flaws, until it's too late.

In my examples the Perception guy wasn't on point, the Mage got ghosted because the Team was already engaged and it was quick and quiet. An extra point here, a lack of a flaw there and the entire story would be different. Shadowrunners by their very nature invite the kind if threats you can get by the Corp SIN if they mess up at any point on a run (or SMS an important security detail, say the wrong thing at the wrong time, take the wrong job). It just means at least One team member knows someone is looking.

basically what cain said, minus saying it 6 times or so.

if the flaw requires you to not use it because it's so bad or it ruins the game, you're in a no-win situation. you either ruin the game, or you've given one person extra points over everyone else.

things that have a good ability with a drawback of an extremely low chance of an extremely bad game-wrecking event happening are simply broken. a low chance of complete annihilation is impossible to balance; either it never happens, and therefore there is no drawback, or it does happen, and you've just borked everything.

unless you're trying to suggest that the corp team is so incompetent that they can't take on the runners in an ambush scenario, in which case i'm forced to wonder what kind of incompetent bungling idiots you think the corp sends out when they need a black ops asset killed. this is not a game where it's hard to kill someone who isn't expecting a fight. the character is walking down the street in the barrens one day and suddenly his brain gets splattered all over the wall he was walking past, and somewhere in a 1 km radius a sniper drone retracts the rifle that fired the shot and reassumes it's appearance as just another NERPS advertising drone. wheee! super fun! and if the rest of the team needs to go too, well, hey, there's all kinds of ways you can ambush someone who (as far as they know) has no reasonable expectation of a frag rocket coming through their window at 2:00 AM, or for their drug fix to be spiked with something incredibly toxic because their supplier accepted a bribe. etc.

if a corp really decides they want you dead, and they're willing to send a hit squad after you, and you don't have some plausible means of making them not particularly care if you die anymore (such as getting the macguffin into someone else's hands, so that now they just want to go after that someone else), you can pretty much expect to die.

I think people sometimes worry a bit too much about making flaws "worth the points", when all they really are is a crass metagame bribe to force a few exploitable weaknesses onto characters. Yes, a 25-point flaw should be serious, but negative qualities should add to the game, ratcheting up the tension a bit, sometimes by making a task more difficult, or sometimes by causing friction with NPCs or even other PCs.

A 25-point flaw should be a discernable hindrance that pops up regularly, but if it is something that makes the character or even the entire game unplayable, then it is poorly designed and should either be banned or house ruled into something more reasonable. Something similar would be, for example, a character with incompetence in the Athletics skill group and a severe allergy to salt water. Basically, such a character presents the GM with two choices - either never have the group go on any maritime missions, thus ignoring the flaws, or have maritime missions come up, where the character will be a goner if he falls into the ocean.

Corporate SIN is slightly less problematic, because the main problem is that some people are taking too extreme a view of the fluff. If an active SIN means that inescapable corporate death squads come after the group, just ban all of the SINner qualities from play. Some flaws don't fit into some game worlds, just like some of the more extreme changeling types you could get from Runner's Companion might only be viable runners in a very pink mohawk campaign where ubiquitous surveillance and tracking are played down.

The difference is, in this example, it's easy to engineer things so maritime/water based missions come up as often as you need them to. There's also a few other drawbacks with Incompetence: Athletics, so it shouldn't be hard to highlight it every so often. Corporate SIN-- all the SIN flaws, for that matter-- are harder to highlight without completely screwing over the character.


Well, the first problem is that most of the SIN problems are just fluff. There aren't any real rules to them, it's just a GM interpretation thing. The second problem is that the fluff is extremely polarized, there is no middle ground if your identity is revealed. This wouldn't be so extreme if there were mechanics to show how having a SIN hampers you, but since all we have is the fluff, it's hard to say what is extreme and what is RAI.

Doing a quick comparison: in the BBB, there are only three flaws that can give you up to 25 points. Burnout-level Addiction, Common/Extreme Allergy, and Corp SIN. Burnout level addiction is pretty much a death sentence, the addiction rules are pretty harsh. You can game it a little by picking an easy to withstand substance, but it's still difficult, and you're taking huge penalties all the time. A Common/Extreme allergy can literally kill you if you come into contact with it, and you'll be coming into contact with it fairly often.

In comparison, Corporate SIN looks extremely kind. If you want to keep things in balance with the other flaws of this level, then the character will suffer from constant risks of exposure, and will suffer a grisly death if that happens. But it's really hard to do that without dragging in the other team members, and it's easier to roleplay your way out of that one.

Personally, if someone wanted a flaw like this, and had a good reason, I'd just reskin Distinctive Style. Each level gives anyone looking for you a +2 to their roll. So, if you had 5 levels of SINner, anyone looking for you would get 10 bonus dice. That's huge, but it's not as shattering as a "Save or Die!" flaw. I might consider making Distinctive Style also leveled, so someone could theoretically have +20 to being researched. That would basically mean you have to be a public figure, but it's decently mechanically sound, and stable.

Yeah... Except how often do the Runner teams (especially at the gaming table) actually go digging into backgrounds of other team members? Sure, it might flag to a Fixer perhaps, but often there are a few cursory checks and then it's all based on Rep, again things like the Sam Verning Novels or Burning Bright show bits of this. I've done the sniper thing before because of a corporate connection, rest of team was untouched. As to what sort of abilities I expect a Corp Extraction team to have... I would have to say I'd expect the abilities if a Team of Shadowrunners.

A high point flaw should be pointed so that it's frequency or severity is high (or maybe both). But it's not a Save or Die (or shouldn't be) its a storytelling device that's going to generate a theme that's familiar in the cyberpunk trope. Yeah, it's mechanically light, but it's a RP driven flaw, look at L5R, cWoD and so forth, there's tons of RP driven flaws and advantages as well as purely mechanical ones. If its something that you can't handle in your game (be it Corp SIN, decking rules, alchemy, high society social situations, HMHVV infections or whatever) then don't use or allow it. But that doesn't invalidate it's presence in the book. You don't like it or whatever. Fine. But I've already mentioned several games in which my players characters take these things and have led to really fun plot lines, side arcs, tense sessions of RP and conflict. Others have had no problem with it being used either. Surely the fact that it works in our games means that it's okay and it seems reasonably pointed, the fact it doesn't work in yours means that it supports one pay style and not another.

^^^ This right here... Could not agree more. I am in the camp of the NEGATIVE QUALITY actually generating fun and enjoyable circumstances (it is a negative quality for a reason, and I feel it is priced appropriately). Hell, the character I am currently playing has a Corporate SIN. Just makes her take that many more precautions so as to insure that she is not caught out.

If you're not enforcing the Blue PC Glow, it's not uncommon for them to ask for a check. If not from a fixer, then from each other, which means someone's fixer did an in-depth check. The Sam Verner novels had a lot of PC glow aspects, like how Verner/Twist suddenly developed a huge reputation, and how he was kinda thrown in with other runners and had to trust them.



First of all, can the insults. The OP asked for ways to deal with it. For me, I like to deal with problems before the destroy my games, so we can focus on having fun. But if you don't like that, hey, your call.

The fact that its in the book just shows that the game isn't well-designed. A good game will minimize problem areas, and will help the GM run a fun game. These sort of problems hinder GM's, make the game less fun. There's no nobility in running a RAW game if no one is having fun. And since lots of people are reporting problems with this sort of thing, that tells me that you're not running the same game as the rest of us (or, in TJ's case, a probably mythical one). While it's true that it may support one play style over another, that doesn't mean your playstyle is better. It could mean your games are just less fun than ours.

I haven't offered any insults Cain. If anything your reply is insulting by implying that because I can apply and easily integrate things like Corp SIN at my table in a way the group enjoys and feels they got their points worth for is a game that "isnt fun". My group certainly seems to not themselves when their back stories and invested flaws come out in play. Your table evidently prefers other things and I'm sure if I was playing that it'd be fun. I never said my play style or game was better, I said I use the things you don't and have some great games because of them. That you and a few others (let's face it Dumpshock's active posting crowed is a couple of dozen, and I'm note if them as I'm an occasional poster these days) dislike something doesn't make it 'bad'. It also doesn't make the game "bad" by inclusion, it introduces possibility which is something RPGs need to have, removing "problems" was something 4E D&D did very well and in doing so it effectively became a tactical board game.

"You can't handle it" is hard to take as anything but insulting.

Anyway, the point here is to examine a flaw in the game, and see how to fix it. "I don't have a problem with it!" is not a helpful solution, because presumably they do have a problem with it. I have nothing against roleplay-centered flaws, but I do have a problem with flaws that give you huge rebates with no significant drawbacks. Since every shadowrunner has to conceal their identity, if you don't enforce some sort of penalty, it becomes a freebie. And since the listed response is so extreme as to be a potential TPK, it's hard to find a moderate way to enforce it.

I'd suggest a few alternatives. First, make SIN a tiered flaw: every 5 points gives anyone looking for info on you a +2 DP, just like Distinctive Style. Alternately, it could be a -2 for all social tests versus street contacts, if they're aware of your background. Or, you could just replace it with a variant of the Enemy flaw, where people are looking for you. All these could be handled via roleplay or via mechanics, whichever the table feels fits best.

Ah yes, okay I can see how that could be construed. When I said Handle I meant "mechanically incompatible with game style" in the way that deckers are often not used as PC's in numerous editions due to the complexities of their own minigame.

Okay, it seems you have an idea there and one that I like. I would also perhaps add another option to it for every Xpts spent in that category of the Flaw SIN readers (of the Fingerprint/retinal variety up) get +1DP when you use a Fake SIN (granted that could mean using multiple Fake SINs could become an issue).

I may go have a play with this and see what comes up.

Entertaining that you ask someone else to can the insults and they you sling them around yourself. Clean your own house before asking others to clean theirs.

Personally, I think that this is an excellent interpretation that is missing from the books. The SIN itself is different from the myriad databases out there. Expanding on that idea, the GSM may be able to answer: "Is [SIN] flagged [criminal], yes or no?"

Certainly, and also if the bearer of that SIN is reported dead and some other info. Just no info from which a Jon Doe (or rather his SIN) could be identified, because then the whole faking business does not work any longer.

No worries. I probably should have kept a cooler head myself.

I like that as well. Maybe one could stack them all together to represent someone with a huge amount of information on them? That would be a huge penalty, since almost any SIN check would result in their fake SIN being blown. If you did that, though, I'd take in an idea from Denver Missions: if their SIN is blown, they're just delayed for a hour or so, while corrupt cops come and check them out. As long as they don't have anyone putting a bounty on them, they can leave with a smallish bribe after being harassed. No worse for wear, and only out the bribe and the SIN.

Only issue I see with that is that the SIN is no longer cheap. When it was a few thousand for a Mostly passable Fake SIN (Say Rating 4) in SR4A, it is now more than twice as expensive for that SIN in 5th. Burning a SIN now is a serious financial blow to the character (not that it doesn't happen) and they may not be able to recover from that blow for several runs. Kinda disappointing to have to spend all your Cred to get an Identity that may or may not be blown the first time you use it. At the published rates for a Run, well...

I considered "Does [SIN] exist?" but decided against it because of a possible brute force attack. I envision the fake SIN business to be the domain of high-level criminal enterprises able to place moles among whoever is responsible for maintaining the GSR.

Good SINs were never cheap, although they weren't as essential until 4.0. However, since we're talking about a 25 point flaw, we should have a decently severe consequence for it.

Of course, since the character has a SIN, they could always use that for regular everyday stuff, and reserve their shadow SINs for when they're being covert. Which would mean they're known to everybody. and then they'd face whatever penalties the GM thought was appropriate. Either way, it would stop the "cheap freebie or die" nature of the Corp SIN as written.

I've added a modified SINner quality to "My SR5 House Rules" thread (along with some other bits)

Fake SINs shouldn't be cheap, but personally, I think runners often get paid far less than they should, both because of all of the expensive items they risk at their jobs (fake SINs, decks, drones, etc.) but also the massive costs faced by augmented characters who wish to upgrade themselves. I think professional freelance criminals who operate at the level of shadowrunners should make a lot more money, but a lot of it should go to repairs, bribes, safehouses, etc.

One thing I did with great success in SR2 and 3 was the low cash, high gear game. Instead of paying runners in cash, the Johnson would frequently pay in product: one might have access to guns and body armor, a mage hiring you might pay in telesma or ritual materials, that sort of thing. Cash only runs were common enough, but they weren't the norm.

I had a lot of success with that model. First, it allowed me to control the flow of cash better, so we didn't get runners who were so rich, they demanded thousands of nuyen just to get out of bed. Second, it allowed me to adjust the flow of gear-- cybered characters always had advancement difficulties against the Awakened, because better cyber was really hard to get. Third, it meant that gear wasn't a downtime activity, it was a plot hook. That last point was the big one; my players loved it, because it gave them character-driven runs. So, if you wanted the latest Ares combatgun, you could find someone who'd give it to you... if you did a small favor for them.

My only caveat with this is that you need to warn your players in advance that you plan on running this way. I've had a few players get frustrated, because they didn't understand why the cash flow was so light. Mostly, this was players who came in after I started the campaign, so I probably forgot to tell them.

Anyway, there's no real reason this wouldn't work in Sr4.5 or 5e. You can pay runners in expensive gear, like fake SINs. They'll feel like they got a good deal, and you don't have to worry about some odd piece of equipment breaking your game.

Runners DO get paid far less than is reasonable, at least by Book Standards. Many tables offset this by added incentives, either in Cash or Kind. When you money is where it should be, then the Cost of a Fake SIN should not be so bad. In SR4A, the cost was about right (in my opinion), but in SR5, the recommended payout makes the simple replacement of Identities an onerous task.

It is an idea we have played with as well, though many runners are very leery of accepting Gear and Equipment that may be used against them in the future. Each table deals with this dilemma differently, I think.

But I will say this... In the real world, there are professional criminals that fall into the Mold of a Minimum payout, and it is ubiquitous in the portrayal of career professional criminals (How many movies have you seen where the Hit man dictates payout for his services (I can think of several just off the top of my head), and rightfully so. After all, The "Johnson" is coming to you to fulfill a service that few others (or no tohers) can provide. When you hit the big time in Shadowrun and become an Elite/Prime Runner, then you should be able to demand better prices than the Simply professional Runner. We have one player that once his characters hit a certain benchmark of expertise, his minimums go up (Often times his mimimums are too high, and the other runners look at him funny, especially when the rent is due). Fortunately, both of our GM's also subscribe to that philosophy. After all, if you can ,make more money boosting cars, then there is a problem.

Brute forcing would still be a problem, since you could just do the "does this DNA swab match [SIN]" query with an arbitrary number of SINs. If a player tried that, I'd point out that considering the corps built the system the way they did, they will take a really dim view of any attempts to circumvent the restrictions. Forgers and similar elements are annoying but often useful, but somebody trying to game safeguards which help keeping a lot of dirty secrets secret is just not acceptable. And those running the GSR have a way of driving that point home.



Well, that much is canonical

Payment in gear is a good partial solution, but it seems like some problems could crop up. It's fine if everyone gets a custom-fitted set of armor, some APDS ammo, and some very good fake IDs and travel papers, in exchange for taking out that bug hive. But what happens when the mage gets paid with a power focus, or the decker gets paid with a better deck - what do the other characters get? Do you handle this with metagaming (look, the rigger got a truckload of drone this time, but your sammie might get his hands on some betaware upgrades next time), or with characters who work as a well-oiled team and take the long view (sure, Wiz the mage got a lot more than the rest of us with that power focus, but it'll make him a more valuable member of the team. And he won't complain if the troll gets a Panther assault cannon as a bonus when we do that arms smuggling job next week). For the latter, I can only see it working either for a group that is very close-knit, or where everyone is an independent contracter (So I got paid more; I'm worth more. You didn't hear me whining when you got a bit extra last time).

Mr Johnsons Little Black Book suggests that a Corporate Johnson can and will offers goods in value of 20% greater than an offered cash payment sum. These are normally put in part of the negotiation and the team will often request items (once they have a Nuyen figure to work around) of the Johnson according to their needs. Obviously depending on the Johnson depends on what can be offered and if something is a no, well, there's always Nuyen (or CorpScrip).

Problem is, that's largely a movie phenomenon. "Professional hit men" don't really exist, and it's debatable if they ever did exist in modern times. And if they did, no one can say if they got paid millions or chump change. Most of the assassination [attempts] I can think of from the 20th century weren't motivated by money, but rather ideology and politics. (Reagan was somewhat of an exception, Hinkley was just a nutcase.)

Even within the heist genre, there's very few major heists that actually work like a Shadowrun is supposed to. Most of the examples I can find are disgruntled ex employees, and not a professional sabotage and intel squad. Even heists are rare: I can't find many that were sponsored by someone else, mostly we have people pulling jobs for themselves. You don't really see professional criminals who work for someone else, they mostly work independently.

So, the "real world" arguments don't actually fly in Shadowrun, because nothing quite like this has happened in the real world. We can't say what is "realistic" in a setting full of fireball-flinging mages and flying lizards with lethal halitosis, anyway. What would happen is that shadowrunners would charge whatever the market can bear, which might not be a whole lot.

That's why I like to compromise with gear. No company likes to part with money, but if they have stuff you want, they'll trade it happily. Even if they take a small loss versus the retail price, the fact that they made a bulk sale without having to pay for packaging, transportation, or marketing, is a big bonus. This also helps the "little guys" hire shadowrunners, something that happens a lot in the fiction. They might not have lots of cash, but if they can trade for excess inventory, that's a good deal.

I see your point. At which time that particular "merchant account" would get locked pending an explanation.

My original thought was for players with the idea that they could brute force valid SINs by repeatedly asking the system if a certain SIN exists in the system, and then compiling a list of them to sell like carders do today with credit card info. Of course, we both know that this wouldn't work.

Your model of very limited information is pretty much the only workable way. Still, it might be funny for rather than a transaction to come back as "DECLINED" it came back as "HE'S DEAD".

Part of it was metagame. But also part of it was an in-character network of favors that developed.

So, let's say the decker has a chance to earn a better cyberdeck. He calls up the team: "Hey, Sam? Remember that time I helped you on a run to get a crate of APDS? I'm going after something myself, and I'm calling in my marker." Or: "Wiz? I need some help. Work with me this time, and I'll owe you later." The end result was that the team became *stronger*, since they all owed each other, and were more willing to take risks for each other.

One fun part about a particular campaign I ran was that only about a third of their runs were for actual pay. Most of the runs were character-driven: a favor to a friend or contact, a personal crusade, going after a choice bit of gear, or just getting drawn in through roleplay. The team ended up constantly asking each other for help to do something or other. It actually improved team bonding, since they helped each other on personal missions more than they worked for pay.

Agreed on that the Movies are where many gamers get their ideas on what payout should be like. And you are correct in that the Heist job is a personal thing rather than a Corporate or Organization thing. The issue is that they set the trope idea for what something is "worth" and the dangers associated with it.

Whether or not "Professional Hit Men" exist is debatable, depending upon your definition. I would class most of those guys with an organization that has Initials somewhere in their descriptors, whether they be military or government groups. And again, even if they do not exist, the trope is out there, and is again a place where many gamers get their ideas of fair compensation from. One of the guys at our table tends to take those tropes to heart, even if the rest of us often question him on it. When you are in need of money, holding out for $50,000/runner is often a bad decision.



Agreed, as long as the characters are willing to accept such things. Many won't, however, because they are paranoid enough to not trust the corp/group offering them high end equipment in place of money. Money is far harder to trace than a serial number on a piece of equipment.

Always helps when a group of characters drive the story along.

"Professional hit men" don't actually exist. The closest I can think of are military-trained snipers, but they don't generally kill outside of a war zone. People who's profession is killing others? Again, outside of the military and a war zone, that doesn't happen. You may find a trained sniper or ex-special forces working for an Alphabet agency, but they'd be rare, most intelligence operatives are trained in languages and computers these days. James Bond is a myth, most real-world spies are paper pushers. I won't say that spies who are also trained commandos don't exist, but they're a definite minority.


Yeah, I do admit that the "wifi is your friend" attitude in SR4-5 makes gear trickier. Still, it can work better than a cash-based game. But in SR1-3, it's fairly easy, since most gear doesn't broadcast its serial number for everyone to see.

Hmmm, having the GSR report flags like "dead", "stolen", or "SSSS" shouldn't hurt, or am I missing something obvious?

Well, we tend to call them terrorists these days, but I would be willing to bet that there are people out there in the real world who kill for money (as there are others who will kill for ideology). One is as good a reason as the other. They tend to be a bit romanticized in the media (Fiction, movies and whatnot). Whether you count them as professional or not depends upon your definition of Professional.

"Professional" hit men are the ones who make a living killing people. Terrorists don't make a living, they go out planning to die. Again, outside of the military, you really don't find people who are paid to kill; and even there, you don't find people who are paid a lot.

I blame this on a serious lack of Quality Control.

Why pay for a 'professional' when so many thugs are out there who will do it for less than the price of an Americar?

These can not be considered 'professional' as the killing is not their main focus, they can and will do it if called upon, but it's usually a shambling mess and more often than not leads back to you.

Hardly professional.

When you can order a hit along with a taxi on one call you have to know QC has gone out the window...

Just say No to Amateurs and support your House of Sinanju.

For when you want to send the very best.

*ahem*

Ha! Good point, but I would hardly consider smiley-face hit men to be "professional"

I wouldn't want to alert the fake SINner that the system is on to her. I also wouldn't want a dumb employee to go on a power trip and try to detain the person or obviously call the police. If necessary, the system could discreetly alert the authorities after the ID check fails. There might even be people standing by to authorize the check to appear as if it were successful while they have armed people en route.

I'm not saying that numerous flags would not be a part of the system itself, just that they would not be accessible by just anyone. The criminal SIN flag, for instance, might show itself on queries by law enforcement or an authorized background check, but not necessarily when you receive a package or download a library book.

Given SR5 Omnipotent Corporate Matrix Gods, all they'd have to do is flag her credstick (and maybe get a couple free marks on it while it's in the reader) as a possible fake SIN and let the deckers crawl all over her. Welcome to everything being interconnected and open.

It occasionally makes me wonder how anyone at all operates with a fake SIN in SR5's world.

Regardless of which edition you prefer, I think Sengir has found an elegant solution. Whatever happens to someone after a failed SIN check is up to the GM.

I suppose fake SINs should work something like forged IDs, fake documentation, or falsified passports.

Kind of reminds me from the first Thor movie when they had caught Thor while he was trying to recover the hammer and his 'Donald Blake' ID came up as an obvious fake, they let him go and followed him rather than detain him as they must have realized weird stuff was going down and it was easier to just follow and see what was happening than waste time holding him as he was not an immediate threat but still of special interest.

Agreed. The complete interconnection and advent of G.O.D. was definitely designed without a legitimate understanding of how that would all work. Another pet peave of mine from the SR5 matrix is the run that all connected firearms have their own, extra icon in AR. Seems that would be the first thing hackers would 'fix'.

But the only fix is for you to just use older (throwback) equipment or burn out the Matrix hardware (which is pretty ludicrous). That said, I am all about using older equipment, actually. Can't hack equipment that has no Matrix Presence.