Dumpshock Forums > Shadowrun Dice Mechanic

Shinobi Killfist

Jan 18 2015, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 18 2015, 11:58 AM)

You are right that the corner cases need some attention, but in the grand scheme of things, I do not see an Olympic Level athlete always putting out exceptional successes no matter what he does, and I don't see someone who has the basic skill level to actually succeed failing all that much. The middle ground is where it does get interesting, and I don't think that I want a difference of 4 skill ranks to be all that glaring in that middle ground.

Degrees of success matter in my games. From easily quantifiable things like who heals more boxes when performing first aid to not just did the con work but does the guard have doubts and or second thoughts. Sadly a guy with a 20 minute class in first aid while in the Boy Scouts performs almost as well a practicing surgeon.

Cain

Jan 19 2015, 03:22 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 18 2015, 08:58 AM)

You are right that the corner cases need some attention, but in the grand scheme of things, I do not see an Olympic Level athlete always putting out exceptional successes no matter what he does, and I don't see someone who has the basic skill level to actually succeed failing all that much. The middle ground is where it does get interesting, and I don't think that I want a difference of 4 skill ranks to be all that glaring in that middle ground.

This is actually not true.

Shadowrun has always been a degree-of-success system. The more successes you roll, the better you do. That's inherent in the system assumptions.

For example: Using 4.5, let's say Dan the Decker and Sally the Sammie both shoot Tank the Troll with a light pistol. Dan hits the Tank with one success, and Sally hits him for twelve. By your argument, because they both got at least one net success, they should do equally well. Is that really the case?

This is part of the combat mechanics, one of the most basic parts of the game. So, degree of success matters in many core cases, like every single combat you ever get into.

Now, if you want to argue that 4 ranks shouldn't be that meaningful? That, I can see. The shadowrun skill levels have always been a bit compacted, a 1 to 6 scale doesn't seem to have enough granularity. Of course, technically skills didn't stop at 6 prior to 4.x....

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jan 19 2015, 02:23 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 18 2015, 08:22 PM)

This is actually not true.

Shadowrun has always been a degree-of-success system. The more successes you roll, the better you do. That's inherent in the system assumptions.

For example: Using 4.5, let's say Dan the Decker and Sally the Sammie both shoot Tank the Troll with a light pistol. Dan hits the Tank with one success, and Sally hits him for twelve. By your argument, because they both got at least one net success, they should do equally well. Is that really the case?

This is part of the combat mechanics, one of the most basic parts of the game. So, degree of success matters in many core cases, like every single combat you ever get into.

Now, if you want to argue that 4 ranks shouldn't be that meaningful? That, I can see. The shadowrun skill levels have always been a bit compacted, a 1 to 6 scale doesn't seem to have enough granularity. Of course, technically skills didn't stop at 6 prior to 4.x....

You and I have different expectations from the SR Rule set. While My expectation is to either succeed or fail, I don't really care if the Troll was shot by 1 or 12 net successes. The truth is that the troll was hit. That is success, and that is my Argument. They both succeeded at their task. You can argue that it matters in SR, but it generally does not (at least for me - only in a few cases does it truly matter - Combat being the big one, of course - but I will avoid the myriad ways that combat is horrible in any game system, so... ). I do have issue with the expectation always being that the higher skilled guy will net continuous exceptional successes because he is better skilled (I am not arguing about the myriad scenarios where the higher skilled character will succeed, but about the way in which he succeeds, which in SR leans toward the "if he is gonna succeed, then he must succeed brilliantly" mindset). Truth is that typically, the world only cares about success or failure. and while SR scales that out to give you levels of success, I tend to find that mechanic sort of "meh."

Cain

Jan 20 2015, 09:22 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 19 2015, 06:23 AM)

You and I have different expectations from the SR Rule set. While My expectation is to either succeed or fail, I don't really care if the Troll was shot by 1 or 12 net successes. The truth is that the troll was hit. That is success, and that is my Argument. They both succeeded at their task. You can argue that it matters in SR, but it generally does not (at least for me - only in a few cases does it truly matter - Combat being the big one, of course - but I will avoid the myriad ways that combat is horrible in any game system, so... ). I do have issue with the expectation always being that the higher skilled guy will net continuous exceptional successes because he is better skilled (I am not arguing about the myriad scenarios where the higher skilled character will succeed, but about the way in which he succeeds, which in SR leans toward the "if he is gonna succeed, then he must succeed brilliantly" mindset). Truth is that typically, the world only cares about success or failure. and while SR scales that out to give you levels of success, I tend to find that mechanic sort of "meh."

Whoa, I have to call a goalie on that one. I think the goalpost just got moved by a mile.

Seriously, look at SR1. Shadowrun is a degree of success system-- it's not D&D, where a hit is a hit. Extra successes are supposed to be rewarded, even if it's only in flavor.