One of my players complaining about the cost of cyber-limbs in third edition
got me thinking about those, and after I took a look at the overall costs,
the options they open up, and the relation to Bioware alternatives,
I came to the conclusion, that I want to house-rule them in my game.
_______________

The things I do not like:

The price is outrageous! This includes the price for cyber-limb augmentations, like a strength upgrade.
How can I expect to see gutter-punks on the street sporting chrome, when the basic kit costs 100k, without any additions.

The starting values seem strangely chosen, and the augmentation rules are clunky and confusing at best,
I still have not found the price of a strength upgrade in Man&Machine, after reading the pages 5 times over.
________________

Fixes I can think of:

Cutting the prices to a third, or even less. At least for standard-ware.
The limbs cost a lot of Essence, so the players will prefer higher grade ware anyway, which drives up the price again.
Also, upgrading the ware beyond the capabilities of ones own body is expensive enough,
in addition to costing Essence again, so the standard stuff does not have to be so hard on the wallet.
This way, Standard ware becomes as accessible as the setting requires.

I quite liked the approach fourth edition took to this, starting the attributes off at a value of 3,
and making the upgrade up to the level of the overall body relatively inexpensive.
This is made especially easy by third edition having only two attributes the ware can have, since it has no Body.
Working a fix over the hand- and foot-armor, would be pretty easy, by only allowing armor on full limbs to add to the overall score.
However I would be inclined to allow forearm armor to be added to close combat damage resistance, in Full Defense at least.

_________________

The only thing I worry about is how this impacts how the starting money is spent.

On the other hand, I think it would be great to have more players in my games walk around with cyber.
The way I see it, they should WANT to shred their souls with ware, for the edge it gives them,
so the in-game rules for ware should reflect this.

What are your thoughts?
Do you play cyber-limbs in third edition RAW?

SR3 Cyber Limb Enhancements are not in Man and Machine but in SR3 Source Book on page 303 according to the NSRCG3
Also: in SR3, Cyberlimb-Armor got averaged, making it worthless. And it could only be applied to full limbs if i remember correctly.
2 Arms in a pair give +1 body and start of at STR4.
2 Legs in a pair give +2 body and start of at QCK4.

Furthermore, each arm and leg makes other bodyware cheaper in both essence and money cost.
But at the 3rd limb, you start losing bonus from other bodyware again.

In 3e the base human or elven cyberlimb starts with a Strength of 4, dwarfs and orks with a Strength of 6, and trolls with a Strength of 8.

Strength enhancements cost 50K per level for the first 3 levels, and 75K per level for each level above that.

All cyberlimbs come with base quickness of 4.

A pair of arms gives you +1 body, a pair of legs gives you +2 body.

1 limb gives you +1 Power to your attacks, 2 limbs gives you +2 Power.

As Stahlseele said, certain items get cheaper if you have cyberlimbs: Bone lacing, dermal armor, dermal sheaths, muscle augmentation,
muscle replacement and orthoskin all receive a 10% discount in essence and cost PER LIMB. However, having a 3rd or 4th limb starts to negate their bonuses - if you have 5 replacements (remember that torso and skull count) you lose all bonuses from those cyber/bio enhancements.

To answer your question directly though, yes, we always played RAW when we played 3e.

Hm...

Having a separate value for the Strength of a cyber-limb makes a load of sense.

Having a completely separate value for Quickness doesn't, now that I think about it.
Also, it punishes characters with high Agility scores, for getting a cyber-limb.
I think the Quickness of the limb should be related in some way to the Quickness of the character.

If I were to put this into fluff, it would kind of be like this:
A very nimble person, and a clumsy guy, both loose an arm.
Let us assume that they are both fitted with the same model of cyber-arm,
a base-line model.
My hypothesis is that, even though they are both fitted with the same hardware,
the nimble guy is able to use the ware way more naturally.
He is still below his former level, since the ware is not of high quality, and impairs him quite a bit,
but he should be above the clumsy guy in how he handles movements.

The reason why I think that it should go down that way, is that a lot of agility, quickness, nimbleness,
is not trained within the place where you ARE agile (the hands for a Piano player for example),
but a lot of it takes place in the brain, within the Motor cortex, and the cerebellum,
where Neurons are being connected throughout your training,
improving the networking within the brain, for the task you are training.
These connections do not disappear right away, when you loose an arm. That takes time. More time than loosing muscle mass.

In game terms I would, for example, start off the Quickness of the limb at Quickness-3(minimum 1) for a standard grade item.
Upgrading this to Quickness-2 would cost a little, because you have to buy a better model,
which allows for a more accurate translation of your nerve innervation, from biochemical, into electronic signals.
I do not even know whether or not I like the concept of the limbs Quickness going above your own,
because, as I said, quickness is something which does not necessarily come from the limb itself.
To a point it is fine, I guess... it should require training though, if it was to be realistic.

Remember that in 3e, Quickness has to stand in for lots of different things, not just nimbleness, but also speed as well. Someone who is relatively sedentary and doesn't run very often, thus having weak legs cannot run very fast. If you replace both of them with cyberlegs, you will tend to run a little faster. Blame it on reducing all agility/speed/nimbleness related things to one stat

Also, the rules cover unbalanced stats, - you determine Quickness for Combat Pool, Reaction and Initiative by adding up the total value of all 4 limbs and dividing by 4.

So, in your example, someone with a natural quickness of 5 and someone with a natural quickness of 2 both get a standard cyberarm.

For the person with Quickness 5, his average Quickness for the above items would be (5+5+5+4)/4=4.75, always round down, so 4.

For the person with the Quickness of 2, his average Quickness for the above items would be (2+2+2+4)/4=2.5, always round down, so 2.

The guy with the higher Quickness is slowed down a little, since the limb doesn't work as well as his natural one. For the other person, where the limb is actually an improvement on his natural arm, it isn't enough to make him faster than he is naturally. If he were to get another limb, however, it becomes (2+2+4+4)/4=3, so replacing more and more of you with a machine makes your physical performance improve.

I'm testing SR3R with only the main book. Here are our current rules:

Cyberlimbs
Obvious arm/leg .75 $37.5k
Synthetic arm/leg .75 $50k - difficult to spot as cyber, conceal of 8
Built in device - 4*normal cost
Built in smartgun link .25 $2.5k
Direct Neural Interface .1 $4.5k
Strength Enhancement (default strength is 6 for humans)
1-3 (per limb) - $25k per point (-1 conceal per point)
4-6 (per limb) .2/pt $37.5k per point (-2 conceal per point)

No issues so far, although the costs may still be a bit too high.
Cyberlimbs come with 2/2 armor. To calculate total armor added by cyberlimbs: add up the armor from all the limbs and divide by 4 (round down). The resulting number is added to worn armor without any stacking penalty. A cyberarm adds 1 point of recoil compensation to any weapon fired with it.

Bloody hell, if cyberlimbs had all those freebies and were this cheap in the main rules my game would be cyborg city!

Hell, at that price, why isn't every corpsec monkey a full conversion? 200k for all four limbs is a dirt cheap investment when you're building supersoldiers.

Domo Arigato Mr Roboto

And it'd todally be on par with the fluff of cyber being the cheap replacement and cloned limbs being the go to for anybody who has money.
despite the fact that, if i remember correctly, a cloned limb actually only costs 100k or so as well . .

As for why there are no full conversion cyborgs running around if it's so cheap?
Because the Essence-Cost still means going alpha or rather beta to get anything usefull in addition to the shiny metal ass.

It's worthless, because you are closer to Alex J. Murphy than to the T-600. And they both only can give and take a bullet every now and then.
What you want is the 1 Million Dollar Man. Because HE can run fast, is strong, can see and hear beyond what normal people can and still looks and feels like the genuine article.
He can go in under cover. He can go in to social meet and greet. And he can probably climb and dodge and break into stuff better without leaving traces.

Well... you want gangers with cyber or not?
I always thought that cyber was kind of part of the setting,
in a way that it realistically could not be if your prosthesis costs 100k minimum.

@nezumi:
I like it, though I would start a little lower even, with the lowest possible cyber-prosthesis.
The attributes start off pretty high though, I gotta say.

@lobo:
Thanks man, that set it into perspective a little, I had actually not thought about the sheer speed factor.

Attributes of 4 fairly high? O.o
4 is barely above human standard o.O

That's what I meant. Did I get it wrong?

@Bertramn - I think Stahlseele was referring to the RAW, i.e. Strength of 4, whereas you were referring to nezumi's house rules, stat of 6.

To replace a limb in SR3:

An arm donated to a hospital, a so called Type O limb, would be 25,000.
An arm that was "laying around" in the hospital, a so called generic limb, would be 15,000
A vat grown arm takes 8 weeks and is 25,000.

All of the above are subject to rejection and having Stress put on them by the GM at his/her discretion - the generic limb more so than the others.

A cloned arm takes 8 weeks and is 50,000.
A forced growth arm takes 8 weeks and is 100,000 - note - this is something of a problem, given that the whole idea of the "forced growth" is to speed things up, but they do not have a reduction in time to offset the price increase. My guess would be to halve the time to 4 weeks.

These would not be subject to rejection since they are cloned from your own DNA.

To compare against that, an obvious cyberarm is 75,000 - more expensive than any of the above, except for the forced growth clone arm. A synthetic one is even more expensive, coming in at 100,000. Mind you, it does come with perks, there is the higher strength and quickness (for most people) the ability to have lots of upgrades, etc - but it is definitely more expensive than just getting a replacement limb - even one made from your own DNA.


But Shadowrun 1e through 3e (and to a lesser extent, later versions) has all sorts of inconsistencies with its setting and pricing. For the most part, many pieces of cyberware are so expensive as to ask yourself, "Why, when the prototypical Shadowrunner is supposed to be down on his luck, eating scraps and with no cash, are they not retiring instead of saving up 500,000 for that Wired Reflexes 3?"

Let me say though, that I have always loved this game from 1e on - you just sort of have to close your eyes a little at stuff like that

Sure, for 1.5 essence and $300k, you can be a pretty rocking melee specialist. But then, you already could be pretty rocking in melee for half of that.



Exactly this.

I've been playing Shadowrun since 1998, and in all that time I've seen one character take a cyberlimb, and it was a rigger who used it to jam all her rigger gear in it. So we figured, if we're going to play a game where chrome is a major feature, we should probably make the chrome nice enough for people to actually want to get it on purpose.

So far, it's been pretty good. I'd love more playtest data on it though.

When the average is 3, 4 is above average and stands out.

@Lobo mostly correct.
Biggest Problem is that cloned limbs do not take up essence as far as i remember.
And the Cyber obviously does . .


You are one third above average.
The same as people with 2 STR and QCK are one third below average.
And then there is one third of exactly average with 3/3 STR/QCK.
(yes, very simplified, i know) So in a Population of, let us for simplicity reasons say 6 billion people . .
yes, you will stand out together with 2 billion other people compared to 4 billion other people.
And at STR4/QCK4 that's . . trained? not even professional? levels i think.

As far as I can tell (and I've reread the section in the SR3 rules a couple times - although I'm perfectly willing to accept I missed something), getting a replacement limb of any non-cyber variety (generic, Type O donor, vat grown, cloned) does NOT cost essence.

However, Awakened characters risk Magic loss if they get a non-cloned replacement. Interestingly enough, lets assume they get a donor limb and lose the Magic point. If they subsequently get a cloned limb, that Magic point is restored (SR3 rules, page 129)

Btw - the stuff for body parts is in Man and Machine page 140

Ok, Quickness starts 3 below the Characters, at a minimum of 1.
Strength starts at 4.

Obvious Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 5k

Synthetic Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 7.5k (All upgrades to this cost +50%)

Strength Upgrade;
up to Body (per point): -, 1k
above Body (per point): 0.125 E, 3k

Quickness Upgrade;
points 1-3 (per point): -, 1k
points 4-6 (per point): 0.125, 3k

Built-In Device: -, 4x normal
_______________________________________

Ok, this makes Cyberlimbs relatively inexpensive, if you want the basic kit.
However:
It eliminates a few logical problems with the system as it is now.
1.
Trolls, Orks and Dwarves do not get strength points for free anymore.
Why should dem Trogs get the better ware for the same price? *spits*
2.
Quickness is linked to the Quickness of the user. If you want better than your Quickness, the procedure has to be more invasive, and costs a lot more.
3.
People on the street can afford the ware, even though the ware they get is not all that great.
It is still a stronger limb than most people have.

Also, I raised the Essence cost, so if you want the Essence cost as it is now (1), you have to buy alphaware, which makes everything a lot more expensive.

I thought it was a good idea to link Strength to Body in the way I did.
You can be hella strong, doesn't mean your bones can handle the cyber. (seen an arm break in armrestling?)

Not really a concern for the corps, though, as they can break out the Heavy Security gear to make their Robosams able to take a hit.

As far as gangers with cyber, it's creepy, but used cyber exists for a reason...

I think under SR3 mages faced the risk of losing magic even with taking heavy damage such as actually losing the limb in the first place. And then again when looking for a replacement.
Might even have been direct essence loss that would affect non mages as well, but it's been years since i last read the rules about that stuff. Mostly using memory, and i'm getting old <.<

Correct with the magic loss possibility - basically every time they took a deadly wound, they had to check.

So if, for instance, they take a deadly wound and lose a limb. They have to check for taking the deadly wound.

They are treated for the wound to heal them. - if you don't take the +2 TN for them being Awakened, they have to check again.

They have surgery to implant a non-cloned limb, if the surgery test doesn't take into account the +2 TN, they have to check again, and them receiving a non-cloned limb would cause them to check again.

Lots of ways to lose essence

ETA - should be magic, not essence.

I think you meant 'to lose magic' there But yes, mages get pooched pretty hard. However, that has nothing to do with the cost of cyberlimbs.

Do the rules for Quickness in M&M still apply? If so, that means a 'standard' cyberlimb is $8k (or really, $16k, because you're expecting people to buy it alpha). You also can't really get Quickness boosts without a pile of penalties without buying two limbs, which means to get a BONUS, you're paying 2.625 essence for a one-point bonus. Clearly not a great buy (even with alpha).

Capping the Strength boost at Body is a neat change. I assume there would be a benefit too from getting a cybertorso. I don't think it'll make a huge change in practice, though. The characters who usually boost strength already have Body out the wazoo.



I'm not feeling the essence bump. This is probably the biggest thing for me, even accepting that most people will buy it alpha. 1 essence is too expensive. If you're buying it betaware to get reasonable costs, that to me is a concern.

Rather than expecting people to buy it alphaware, I'd make the standard version reasonable (with the higher nuyen cost and the lower essence), then offer a crummy 'for the people' version which is dirt cheap and an essence sucker. I think the assumption is the cyber in the book is stuff runners are likely to buy. So Timmy's wind-up cyberlimb won't be included, even if it's in the world.

(And on that topic, I'm curious why you dropped the Quickness score, but kept Strength constant and above average. If we're starting with drektastic ware, wouldn't both scores be cruddy and have to be bought up to reasonable levels?)

My concern would be with things like:

I am a troll and have a Strength of 5 and a Body of 11.

I buy a limb for 5K and 6 points worth of Strength enhancement for 6K.

If I punch someone, I can "Lead with that limb" (M&M page 34) and use the strength of 12. It seems a little cheap for 11K.

STR5 Troll?
That's MINIMUM STR!
And raising STR in Game is fragging hugely expensive.
You, my friend, are doing it wrong.

The REAL Problem is:
I am a Troll. I have 10 STR. I Buy an Arm. I lose 2 points of STR!
That alone is a no go. Paying horrible ammounts of Money and essence and coming out weaker for it . .
Yes, ok, for every initiation a magic user does, he loses now one point of magic if he choses a meta tech instead of raising his magic attribute.
That's the level of idiocy we are talking about here. But because it's Trolls and Cyber and not the poor widdle mages, it's okay of course . .

Well, except that 'standard' does not really apply, since it does not stack linear with the other system.
If the character has a Quickness of 6 or 7, the standard ware in the BBB inhibits him greatly, while a guy with Quickness 1 gets a huge bonus.

A limb which is as good, or better(because of strength), than your old one, costs 8k, that's true.


Thanks!
I just thought it made more sense, you are right, in most cases it will not change a lot,
because it is not as easy in 3rd to get through a fight with Body 1.


Keep in mind that I have nothing against the Essence cost as it is in the books,
I just thought the Nuyen price did not make much sense within the system.
For 100k you should be able to get something quite amazing, not the standard shit.
Your average Joe on the street does not care much about loosing 2.65 Essence,
he will probably not get another augmentation in a while.

The problem I see with your proposition, is that ware is so good, that everyone who has the money,
will have all cyber all the time, if he is not a mage, though even then it would be stronk.
Why not get 4 arms, a torso and a head, when you got prio A on Nuyen?
Essence is a way for balancing the ware out,
so if I make the gear cheaper, I need to balance it out on some other end.
The three points of Balancing here are Price, Benefit and Essence-Cost.
I do not want the ware to be completely useless for being cheap, so I raised the Essence cost.

I just used the Basic-Alpha-Beta-Delta-mechanic to my advantage in archiving a bigger spread of the prices,
while still keeping basically everything within the system which is being sold.
If you want some decked-out state-of-the art stuff, which in addition does not cost a lot of Essence,
you have to pay a lot in my system too.

EDIT: Here, I put it in a Venn Diagram.



Well, I did not drop Quickness, and it starts of quite cruddy indeed, on 1 for most people.
All I did, is tie it to the characters original Quickness.
I argued my point on that earlier.
Strength and Quickness/Agility/Nimbleness are not positioned in the arm, in the same way.

Edit:
Keeping Strength on 4 just made sense to me.
It is a machine-arm, making that stronger than most peoples regular arms, does not seem that far off.
Lowering that to 3 makes sense too though, I am not decided on that, I guess I just wanted there to be one benefit for the basic arm.
A strong human can still win arm-wrestling against it, but a Troll just laughs at that stuff.

4+6 is 10 in my book... ok, I am being a smartass.

I have not read through M&M from start to finish, just skimmed what I needed at the time.

That aside though... yes, getting a cyber-arm gives you a huge benefit, what of it?
That is what I set out to do after all.
If this leads to Strength-5-Trolls with strong cyber-arms cropping up in games,
I have done good.

No you are correct - I was raising it from 5 to 11, not 4 - my bad.

However, that means that for 12K, I get an effective +7 Strength bonus to hit someone, as opposed to Muscle Replacement, which gives me +1 Strength and +1 Quickness for 1 Essence, and costs 20K. Now, I know that Muscle Replacement has its uses, but it still seems a bit much.

@Stahlseele - yes, Strength is expensive, and in many cases it is used primarily for melee attacks. With this system for 12K I can increase my punching power by 7, as opposed to spending a large number of attribute points in char gen, or a ridiculous amount of karma over the course of the game. It is pure munchkinism, and I would not do so myself, I'm simply playing devil's advocate.


For me, I honestly like the way they work in 5e, if you read the way they are written as I think is intended, rather than how it has been officially ruled.*

Basic cost of limb: 15,000
It comes with a base Strength and Quickness of 3, and gives you on extra box on your physical condition monitor.
You can raise these stats up to your actual Strength and Quickness, each point costs 5,000. (customization)
In addition, you can then raise them higher than that, up to 3 points higher, for 6,500 per level. (augmentation)

So, average human with a strength and quickness of 3 buys a cyberlimb. No customization is needed, and he may augment either Strength or Quickness up to 3 more points at a cost of 6500 per level.

Bigger human comes along with a strength of 5 and a quickness of 4. He spends 10K to customize the limb's strength, and 5K to customize its quickness to match his body. He can then raise them by 3 more points if he wishes.

So, to kind of tie in with the whole idea of breaking your back when trying to lift something, the maximum strength for a limb is equal to your actual strength (minimum 3) +3. So a weedy little human who has a strength of 1,2, or 3 can have a maximum strength with that limb of 6, while a bigger human with a strength of 6 base could get an arm with up to strength 9, and a troll with strength 10 could get a limb up to strength 13.

You of course can play around with the values, if you think that is too expensive.

*Official ruling is that all limbs can be customized up to racial maximum, thus all humans can have cyberlimbs customized up to a 6, and then augmented up to a 9 - but I personally don't like the idea that "customizing the limb to your specifications" means your race's specifications.

I get your point on the M&M rule.
Allowing it to be used like that in all situations is kinda stupid, I admit.

Your point is definitely a problem for my proposition.
Keep in mind though, he pays a bunch of Essence for that.
Also, his Quickness probably lies at around 1, but that sadly influences almost nothing.

I might raise the cost of raising the attributes...

A quick question - you say "he pays a bunch of essence for that" - if I read your houserule correctly, he pays 1.25 for the limb, and that's it right? As opposed to 1 essence point for Muscle Replacement. His Body is 11, so raising his strength up to your Body attribute according to your houserule is 0 essence and 1K per level.

And just for swag, if you got it as alphaware, you just increased the cost of the limb from 12K to 17K (I'm assuming only the cost of the actual limb doubles), and your essence cost drops from 1.25 to 1. So now it is still 3K cheaper than Muscle Replacement and is the same essence cost.

remember though that all improvements and addons made to cyberlimbs have to be the same grade as the limb or higher.
so as soon as you have an alpha arm, your costs explode because now everything else needs to be alphaware as well . .

Ok, I went through the numbers with a Body 5 character.

I went for a fairly good model, with Strength 8, and Quickness +3.

For Standard-ware, I arrive at 28k/41k respectively for obvious and synthetic, with 2 Essence cost.
For Alpha-ware, I arrive at 53k/82k and 1.6 Essence.

Munchkin-ism aside, what do you think about the prices, as they would stand within the setting?

The thing about a cyber-torso would be interesting,
I might allow it to negate the extra Nuyen and Essence cost for Strength above Body altogether,
gotta double-check that though.
Also I am still thinking about which bonuses from the original rules I should include, sadly 1 HP is not an option, since everybody has the same amount.



I think 1.25 Essence for an arm is quite a lot. You are not getting it back after all, and in my example it gets a lot higher.
Do not forget that you are assuming a high Body attribute as well, with a lower Body it gets a lot more expensive quickly,
in Nuyen as well as in Essence.

Also, I am house-ruling the whole system to my tastes at the moment, so I might make every other ware more accessible as well,
though I might have to lower the starting money a little, which is basically what 5th Edition did.
The rule that allows you to fight with one arm without penalty basically, is another one that I will take a look at,
it should at least require a called shot, in my opinion.

BTW: What are the applications for a high Quickness in a single arm? Or in both arms for that matter?

I'm not particularly fussed either way to be honest, if I feel an NPC I create needs something to add flavour they'll have it. And why do these gangers need to scrimp and save their hard "earned" nuyen for a cyberlimb, putting it away in a piggy bank till they can afford it? Why can't they simply jump some obviously cybered person and take theirs, why can't they have gotten lucky and boosted a truck with spare parts in the back etc etc.

A trend I've noticed a lot on this board is that people seem to think they have to cost out their NPCs to a strict nuyen budget, not taking into account the myriad ways they could have gotten the gear other than clicking "buy now" on Amazon (or future equivalent ).

Ok, think about this though: When they have come upon a truck with cyber,
why not fence all of it off and make a nice life for themselves with the 10+ million Nuyen they just scored?
Suddenly, scoring a successful grab on a Van full of Cyber-arms gives you enough resources to start your own crime syndicate.
Also, when one Cyber-arm is worth 100k, or even way more, and there is a whole truckload of it,
you can be damn sure that that truck will be protected by a small army.
When kidnapping a truck from the highway becomes WAY more lucrative than almost all runs, we have a problem,
because when I GM, and my players say:'Screw the runs, the money is in stealing Trucks full of cyber off the streets!',
I would be an ass if I did not let them do that. This is a level above SedanRun.

I know the argument that the GM can give his NSCs whatever he wants.
I know the argument too btw, that, if the character needs the cyber-arm for his back-ground,
and the player wants it badly, he will shell out the 300k for it.
Those arguments do not concern me.
I think it is preferable to have things make sense within their own system,
as long as it is at all possible.

Yeeaah . . our GM did not think that our reaction to being pursued by a cyberzombie would be:"sweet! jackpot! ambush time! papa needs himself a new pair of eyes!"

Come on, that's just pure strawman. I don't want to get into another debate around how easy/difficult it is to steal things, I mentioned it as an example of how a ganger could have gotten a limb without resorting to saving all his pennies.



No problem at all with you wanting cyber all over your game and house ruling whatever it takes to get that. I personally think the costs of cyber limbs are balanced and reasonable for the setting as it's written and don't require this kind of excessive overhaul.

I know the game is called "Shadowrun" guys but the game world does not revolve around runners!

Not everything, in fact Nothing is made, produced, imported or designed with shadowrunning in mind.

We seem to forget this, and thus end up with the opinion that everything should be priced so that runners or gangers can afford it.

Just think for one moment that the prices are set to EXCLUDE all runners and gangers.

these things exist for another purpose, we just manage to get access to them...

and I don't think a ganger saves up and then one day decides to rip his own arm off and replace it with soda cans !! ..

I think he loses the arm in a gun fight and spent the next few months/ years paying off that 300K debt to the gang that funded it or the street doc that he got dragged into ... with interest .. and has some added flaws and edges to go with it ...

if you look at character creation as a factory that spews out fresh meat .... sorry but .. you is doin' it wrong !

character generation = Generating a "character" a history of events that leads to this person here .... not a set of numbers with an accompanying bill to ARES with love and kisses for all the shiny new parts!!!

And I do not want to get into a debate about what is, and isn't, a strawman argument.
You gave me a possible explanation for gangers sporting cyber, which I tried to think through to the end.
If I came over as condescending in the process, I apologize, that was not my intent.

This I would call a strawman, but I digress.
Thanks for your input though.

I am not sure whether I grasp what you mean by "EXCLUDING" runners and gangers.
You mean that they are only meant for corporate workers, since those are the norm consumers for high end products?

Do you think the prices should be higher than my proposed ones,
because they are meant to be targeted towards corporate workers?

Setting aside that I think a debt of 300k+ is almost impossible to pay for anyone in Shadowrun, let alone a street-thug:
My point is , that the gangers CAN afford it already, and that some people,
not only gangers or runners, sport it for fashion reasons.
A runner who gets paid well on some jobs, has a lot of spare cash, but nowhere near as much as he needs for a cyber-limb,
at least according to the payment thread.
Needing to score the big, big, BIG bucks for something, which in some cases might be a fashion accessory, seems strange to me.

It would of course be possible to list different prices, and balance the equipment for character creation,
by introducing a different medium, like Equipment Points, or something. I think this is unnecessary though.

Edit: I can still go up with the prices in my houserule, it was, after all, just a first draft. I have no problem still going up a little, since I kind of forgot about used cyber, which corrects the price down. I may go around +60% on everything because of that.

consider EVERY tech that we have right now in 2015 was designed for a military application, funded by DARPA or by massive conglomerates for hospital use.
they do not create anything for criminal enterprise.

cyberware serves a function before it becomes stylish, there is nothing out there in any of the books that was designed for criminal use .. military maybe, that just happens to have crossover with criminal / shadowrunning.


honestly I'm happy with the level of power vs. price in RAW (and some errata) but I take no issue with you wanting to adjust it.
My only concern was players pointing out that stuff is too expensive for their "budget" when building characters.
it sounds like they want to be SOTA from day one and spend your adventure without once looking for an upgrade.

I consider ware to be like todays tattoos.
not everyone gets one, but those that do, once you have one ... more follow .. and the older ones fade and need replacing or covering up etc.
Same goes for Cyberware and gear
a Million Nuyen SAM ... does not normally step fresh from a vat and onto the streets.. even if ALL of his gear is ALPHA ... it probably was not installed in one go.
it does not explain how he is a low level runner ...
so you work it around, he is a low level runner that has been chasing the bleeding edge of technology for the past number of years,
he started with wired 1 and now has wired 2 ... he started by losing an arm in an accident and then decided to "balance" out with the other one to match.

it's supposed to be about the ware defining the character not the character defining the ware.

You are absolutely correct, that in one shot a runner cannot ever afford all that cash for upgrades in one go,

yep, I also agree that Running should be more profitable ... (another thread)

but ... just look at todays medical services ... not many can afford the massive bills ... so they turn to other means of payment
Insurance, loansharks, running the shadows to Mexico or Europe for cheaper operations.

Maybe it should factor into Lifestyle ... or maybe most runners have Squatter lifestyle and Fake SINs because they had to abandon the life & SIN that they owe a corp for all that ware ?
I'm not saying everyone should have the Flaws of massive debt and hunted by the mafia etc.
e
but working that kind of detail into the character gives the GM Sooooo much more to work with and make YOUR story that much more interesting.

and not just about .. "I have BOD 10 and Armour 9 from my ware .. I am a walking tank ..."

it's just so much more fun to play if theres some history

wanted to cover this off separately.

A runner who survives on his paycheck and nothing else .. is not a runner.

Negotiate for more
Expect to be double crossed and have a backup copy of paydata
Sell paydata to highest bidder
it's always worth looking in the box that says "DO NOT LOOK"
boost a couple of corporate SUV's and selling them for a tidy profit (just don't make a dayjob out of it)

A Runner does jobs to increase their REP with the contacts they have ... getting paid covers expenses, only.

your players have to look HARD for opportunities to get rich quick
You as GM have to counter that with consequences and risk vs reward.

NEVER EVER SAY NO, let them figure out it was a bad idea later ... but don't just kill them for looting some cargo ... it's a fun game for all involved, supposedly

I will disagree slightly about the military/civilian aspect.
The fluff, as I know it, defines standard cyber-ware (at least limbs) as basically the civilian option,
with delta grade ware being the real military stuff.
The cyber-ware grade system is also the reason why I see no reason to not spread the prices out more,
since they are basically open-ended, with delta being so extremely expensive.
Your point is valid though, extremely so when it comes to more extreme ware, like the synapse boosters and the like.

I agree on the rest though, but keep in mind that even 10k is a huge load of money for a civilian,
and my house-rules only cite those as among the lowest options, which players generally will not go for,
because they fear essence loss too much (normal people),
or because they go for the more expensive options from the start (sammies).
At least that is the impression I have gotten over time.

Edit:
Also,I am pretty sure I remember there being strict rules about medical procedures in third edition,
pertaining to their cost in particular.

Role-playing the character should be the goal here, though, as you said,
but I feel it is punishing the player, if he has to put Priority A/B into resources,
just so he can afford that cyber-arm, which does not even give him/her that big of an advantage,
but which he needs for his character concept.
Having a cyber-arm is no-where near as extreme of a decision by the players,
as making his/her character a mage, or an adept, but requires a similar amount of effort in Priority.


Well, yeah.

Used cyberarm is 50,000 (37500 for obvious) and for that they get a slightly higher strength in that arm, +1 to the power of their attacks and the ability to upgrade and enhance that limb at a later date. At that price it's in the territory of priority C resources, so hardly character breaking.

If it's purely a replacement with no benefits at all (including removing the option to upgrade later) then lowering the price for that should be between the player and GM to discuss between them.

And people want cyberlimbs for fashion? We're not talking about a Prince Albert here....

see also Cyberpunk and Body dysmorphic disorder, in a world where they can build a better shinier you it is any wonder some people follow the Path of Chrome?

It's a mix bag in Shadowrun, some like wiring themselves up a little while others pick it up due to past injuries.
(Which is fun since the only way to really have that level of injury is pregame chargen as the system doesn't really deal with losing limbs as much postgen.)

Meanwhile the true hardcores held in awe/fear/disgust by their fellow runners are guys who voluntarily chopped off both arms to replace with cyber.

by the same account I could feel it is "punishing" Adepts to take magic just to get the Improved physical attributes
to the same level as a SAM that spends his Nuyen on probably better stats.

this looks to be boiling down more to finding that you think the priorities system is not giving you (or your players) the granularity they want.

I suggest the Points system that Stahl' pointed out to me .. and maybe offer 120+ points.
but don't then complain that your players spent all their points on STATS and money (for ware) and ended up with zero active skills outside of combat skills

honestly? I feel the cash values on offer RAW can get you to a very strong position with ware ...
But it has to have a GOAL ... they need to look at something they want to achieve .. otherwise it becomes Murder-hobo-Run

I just get the impression (please forgive me if I got the wrong idea) that you are caving in to the player that "wants everything at the start"
and cannot comprehend that over the course of a campaign that he will spend a good deal of downtime in a street Doc getting upgrades.

___

The one last alternative is .... give everyone a starting bonus in Karma ...and an exchange rate to Nuyen...
(the basic one is 250 nuyen per point of Karma .. I feel is a little low)
then the mages etc. can initiate for karma and the SAM can buy more toys (don't forget street index and availability though)

then they have already a few jobs under their belt and feel a bit more rounded, than the fresh zero Karma guys.

Well, you're WRONG, and you're a MEANIEHEAD!

I see your point really, but that is not my motivation, believe me.

When a player 'wants everything at the start', he will not take cyber-limbs, since the other ware is straight out better.
Also, in the system as it is, the lack of spread on cyber-ware costs leads to people not being able to afford a whole lot,
not only in character generation, but later in the game as well.
What if I want to buy a pair of cyber-legs with retractable roller-skates, and halfway-decent stats?

The amount of money those are worth is so ludicrously high, especially in the higher ware categories,
that it would take one or two years of real-life time at best until the players can afford it, if they are not extreeeemely ingenious in turning up money in the game. This leads to front-loading. If you can not have it later, why not buy it now?

What bugs me most is the inconsistencies within the fictional universe though.
I listed them through several posts earlier, so I will only reiterate one:
Every ware-shop has cyber-limbs lying around, even alpha-ware, and sometimes beta-ware, as by RAW (M&M).
Forget SedanRun, you don't have to crack a car, you just have to walk into the shop,
and out again, that nets you a few hundred thousand Nuyen.
This I can not live with, I would have to fudge around it as a GM, and I hate fudging like that.

Just assume that I am being sincere in what I was writing in this thread please.
_________________________________________________________________

Back to a few of my questions that I need answers/help on:

1.
What alternatives are there to take the average of all the limbs,
for determining the Strength/Agility when the whole body is used?

2.
How could Quickness 1 on a single arm badly influence anything?
Can it? Should it (I think yes)? With legs this is not as big of an issue.
How could high Quickness on a single arm work?

3.
I have decided to drop all other benefits cyber gives, like the extra melee power,
or the extra Body, since the benefits are already high enough,
and Strength already gives enough melee power.

The torso however will retain its Body bonus, and replace any extra Essence costs,
that raising Strength above body bring in.
Since I justify the Quickness Essence cost not mechanically,
but neurologically, this does not work here.
___________________________________
I adjusted some the prices:
___________________________________

Quickness starts 3 below the Characters, at a minimum of 1.
Strength starts at 4.

Cyber-limb: 1.25 E, 8k (Synthetic means +50% Price on everything)

Strength Upgrade;
up to Body (per point): -, 2k
above Body (per point): 0.125 E, 3k

Quickness Upgrade;
points 1-3 (per point): -, 2k
points 4-6 (per point): 0.125, 3k

Built-In Device: -, 4x normal; max. total Essence of devices as much as the limb

1) Why would you want to? This balances out the munckinism of using strength as a dumpstat and loading up one cyberarm to negate that penalty. Most things you will do require more than just your arm, and a 90 lb weakling with a big arm should not be as good as someone who is in shape. (Mind you, it doesn't help with punching someone, which per M&M you can do exactly what I described above, although it really should, since punching is not something you do with only your arm, most of the power comes as you turn into the act of throwing the punch - but those are the RAW)

2) Combat Pool and Reaction are both calculated by averaging your limbs. So if you have a character with a Quickness of 4, if he gets a Quickness 1 Cyber arm, then for the purposes of calculating those, his Quickness is 4+4+4+1/4 (round down)=3, so it reduces the value of his quickness for those items.

Well, you could make the assumption that (Like Will smith in iRobot) the operation to attach an arm also braces the rest of the torso in order to use it
so assume that the whole body rating is equal to the "highest" rated single item

ignore the values of any lower pieces

but that's a fugly solution