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Bertramn
QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Jan 21 2015, 06:35 PM) *
Well, you could make the assumption that (Like Will smith in iRobot) the operation to attach an arm also braces the rest of the torso in order to use it
so assume that the whole body rating is equal to the "highest" rated single item

ignore the values of any lower pieces

but that's a fugly solution


That's what I thought too. Using the lowest value is equally stupid.
Discarding the highest and lowest, and taking the average from the rest is interesting,
but way too complicated.

QUOTE (Lobo0705 @ Jan 21 2015, 05:44 PM) *
1) Why would you want to? This balances out the munckinism of using strength as a dumpstat and loading up one cyberarm to negate that penalty. Most things you will do require more than just your arm, and a 90 lb weakling with a big arm should not be as good as someone who is in shape. (Mind you, it doesn't help with punching someone, which per M&M you can do exactly what I described above, although it really should, since punching is not something you do with only your arm, most of the power comes as you turn into the act of throwing the punch - but those are the RAW)

2) Combat Pool and Reaction are both calculated by averaging your limbs. So if you have a character with a Quickness of 4, if he gets a Quickness 1 Cyber arm, then for the purposes of calculating those, his Quickness is 4+4+4+1/4 (round down)=3, so it reduces the value of his quickness for those items.


On 1): I do not want to take away the balancing,
I just think it is a strange kind of balancing, is all.
A lot of bookkeeping.
Your point about using the entire body to punch is what I was thinking as well btw,
that is why I do not like this free choosing which value to use, from M&M.

On 2): You are right, I should have done the math on that myself,
that might already be enough of an upside.

Edit:
Just looked at Muscle Replacement through the editions.
It does the same in every edition, but the price fluctuates extremely heavily.
3rd: 20k per level
4th 5k per level
5th: 25k per level
Funny stuff, 4th edition is crazy about prices.
Bertramn
After coming up with that house-rule for the cyber-limb prices,
I decided that the rest of the ware had to be brought into context.

In the following list are pretty much all cyber- and bio-ware mods which influence physical attributes.
When I changed a value, the arrow always points at the new value.

With the bio-ware I have not listed the Bio-Index,
since that is not the main aspect where it is balanced with cyber-ware.
__________________________________________________________

    BODYWARE
    _______________________________________________
  • Bone Lacing: Plastic 0,5->0,6 7600->6000
  • Bone Lacing: Aluminium 1,15->1,40 17500->25000
  • Bone Lacing: Titanium 2,25 75000->50000
  • Bone Lacing: Ceramic 1,5->1,6 40000->25000
  • Bone Lacing: Kevlar 1 20000->15000
  • Cyberskull: Obvious 0,5->0,75 35000->5000
  • Cyberskull: Synthetic 0,5->0,75 55000->7500
  • Cybertorso: Obvious 1,5->1,875 90000->25000
  • Cybertorso: Synthetic 1,5->1,875 120000->37500
  • Dermal Sheath: Rating 1 0,7->0,9 24000->20000
  • Dermal Sheath: Rating 2 1,4->1,6 60000->40000
  • Dermal Sheath: Rating 3 2,1->2 120000->60000
  • Dermal Sheath: Ruthenium +0,2 +150000->+25000
  • Dermal Sheath: Image Scanner (each) +0,05 +8000->+4000
  • Move-by-Wire: Rating 1 2,5 250000->80000
  • Move-by-Wire: Rating 2 4,0 500000->150000
  • Move-by-Wire: Rating 3 5,5 1000000->225000
  • Move-by-Wire: Rating 4 7,0 2000000->300000
  • Muscle Replacement (Maximum Rating 4) Rx1->Rx1 Rx20000->Rx15000
  • Boosted Reflexes: Level 1 0,5 15000->12000
  • Boosted Reflexes: Level 2 1,25 40000->30000
  • Boosted Reflexes: Level 3 2,8 90000->80000
  • Dermal Plating: Level 1 0,5 6000
  • Dermal Plating: Level 2 1 15000
  • Dermal Plating: Level 3 1,5 45000->25000
  • Wired Reflexes: Level 1 2 55000->40000
  • Wired Reflexes: Level 2 3 165000->90000
  • Wired Reflexes: Level 3 5 500000->200000
  • Reaction Enhancer .3/point 60000/point->35000/point
  • Reflex Trigger +.2 +13000->+7000
  • Stepped Reflex Trigger - +25%
  • CYBERLIMBS
  • Obvious Cyberlimb 1->1,250 75000->8000
  • Synthetic Cyberlimb 1->1,250 100000->12000
  • Obvious Foot/Hand 0,35->0,4 20000->3000
  • Synthetic Foot/Hand 0,35->0,4 25000->4500
  • Obvious forearm/lower leg 0,65->0,7 40000->5000
  • Synthetic forearm/lower leg 0,65->0,7 50000->7500
  • Strength Enhancement: up to Body - 2000
  • Strength Enhancement: over Body 0,125 3000
  • Quickness Enhancement: Point 1-3 - 2000
  • Quickness Enhancement: Point 4-6 0,125 3000
  • Body Plating: Ballistic Armor (per point) 2500->5000
  • Body Plating: Impact Armor (per point) 4000->8000
  • Body Plating: Ablative Armor (per point) 7000->14000
  • Built-in Device -variable 4 x normal value
  • BASIC BIOWARE
  • Adrenal Pump: Level 1 60000->50000
  • Adrenal Pump: Level 2 100000
  • Enhanced Articulation 8000->7000
  • Muscle Augmentation 20000/level->30000/level
  • Muscle Toner 25000/level->35000/level
  • Orthoskin: Level 1 25000
  • Orthoskin: Level 2 60000->55000
  • Orthoskin: Level 3 100000->75000
  • Suprathyroid Gland 50000->75000
  • Synthcardium: Level 1 6000
  • Synthcardium: Level 2 15000
  • CULTURED BIOWARE
  • Reflex Recorder: Base Skill 25000->20000
  • Reflex Recorder: Specialization 10000->7000
  • Synaptic Accellarator: Level 1 75000->60000
  • Synaptic Accellarator: Level 2 200000->150000
    _______________________________________________


I would be incredibly thankful for your opinion on the balancing of this, the balancing to each other mostly.
I make it, you break it.

Since I am going through with my house-ruling, comments about how I should play RAW, are useless.
If you think that something is too cheap for the prevalence it has in the setting,
or the complexity of the ware, or a different fluff/logic reason, that is entirely different.

In that case I would love some advice, for how to get it more expensive,
but stay balanced in comparison to the other things.
    ________
    [A] 500k
    [B] 200k
    [C] 50k
    [D] 12k
    [E] 4k
    ________

This is how I modified the Money Priority,
to not unbalance character creation.
I will go through the other items as well like this.

Edit:
Remember that this is a first draft, some things I definitely want to fiddle around with (Move-by-Wire 4 has an Essence Cost of 7...).
Also, I will change some things I talked about earlier in the thread, like how attributes on limbs are handled.
nezumi
Okay, so I see you're trying to reduce the 'out of control cash' problem, and I'm totally behind that. But how did you derive the values for all your cyberware? I think it's a bit tough to look at a whole list and say 'yup, that seems right' without any rationales.
Bertramn
With some I thought that the technology was way too expensive per RAW,
or way too cheap, as with Bioware.
I posted my little Venn diagram earlier, that is basically what I was acting on. biggrin.gif

Low essence cost, and high effect -> high price
Low price and weak effect -> low essence cost
Low price, high effect -> high essence cost

I also took a different approach to, for example, Wired Reflexes, than evidently the creators did.
Level 1 gives you +100% initiative dice, and max. +100% Reaction
Level 2 gives you +50% initiative dice, and max. +50% Reaction
Level 3 gives you +33% initiative dice, and max. +33% Reaction
The effect is not exponential, why should the prices be?
I still did not do the price growth in a linear way, but I think the approach I took is more realistic.
Since Level 3 is so Essence costly, people are gonna wanna buy Alpha or Beta anyway, so the prices will adjust.


With others I tried to balance it to other ware of the same category.
(Reaction Augmentation; Initiative Augmentation; Attribute Augmentation, Quickness, Strength, Body; Armor)

Muscle replacement for example, had to be balanced with Cyberlimbs,
in a way where both were viable, while both still have their pros and cons,
and while both have a relatively realistic minimum price.
In that case I opted to raise the Essence cost on both.

Muscle Toner and Muscle Muscle Augmentation were a no-brainer before the change,
and I still thought them too cheap after the change of Muscle Replacement,
because they cost no Essence, so I raised the prices.
Bioware is way unbalanced in a lot of cases.
There simply is no reason not to do it, except the money, which was not a reason before.

Cyberskulls do not have an equivalent anywhere, so they stood alone.
I could significantly drop their cost without unbalancing anything.
The number I arrived at is a little low, but I think the higher Essence cost makes up for it.

This generally became a theme.
In the games I GM-ed, almost no-one ever bought Beta-Ware, or even Alpha-Ware,
because the prices were already insane.
The players front-loaded, and then kept their stuff mostly.
This had to do with the upgrade rules as well,
which are a beast of their own.
With this approach, upgrading becomes more of a possibility,
while not changing too much in terms of gameplay.

Cyber-torso had to be somewhat balanced with the Bone-Lacings, as well as Dermal Sheath,
and Dermal Plating.
Dermal Sheath was a complete no-brainer compared to Dermal Plating.
It simply was better in the Essence department, while having the same effect, and not costing much more.

I tried to set Move-By-Wire, Boosted Reflexes and Wired Reflexes into perspective.
What I tried here was to give an incentive to buy Boosted Reflexes early,
which would hamper your progression however,
while still keeping the other options viable.
Either you sacrifice in the beginning, or later in the game.
If you buy Boosted Reflexes however, you perhaps have the A Priority for attributes, or skills,
which would be worth it in the long run.

Move-by-Wire 4 is really a mystery to me.
Who thought that stuff was a good idea?
Essence 7... seriously? So the corp sells you something, and the doc does the surgery,
and the rate of survival is 0%. This is publicly known, it is not a bug, it is a feature, it can not be any other way.
This just baffles me. It makes no sense within the setting.
Corps are evil, I know, but that is just ridiculous. The market would decide against the product.

As I said, I tried to counteract the massive price-decrease, by lowering the starting-money.
The prices are, in my eyes, more realistic now, but what you can buy with a Priority D in Resources, is still pretty much the same, for the most part.
nezumi
1) This is a HUGE amount of stuff. Simply overwhelming. So it's very difficult for me to respond to it, knowing I can only focus on one or two things, and the rest will likely be ignored and eventually forgotten (by me; I can't speak to anyone else, of course).

So with that in mind, I go to:

2) If your plan is to balance things, I think it important to first define what is your metric for 'balanced'. How much is a +1 worth? Is a +1 Body worth as much as a +1 Intelligence? Should all things be balanced, or is it okay for some things to be very good values, while others are terrible values? Is the assumption that this is stuff on the market for anyone to buy, are these just Shadowrun things, or are they something else?
Bertramn
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 26 2015, 10:14 PM) *
1) This is a HUGE amount of stuff. Simply overwhelming. So it's very difficult for me to respond to it, knowing I can only focus on one or two things, and the rest will likely be ignored and eventually forgotten (by me; I can't speak to anyone else, of course).

I assume you are pretty spot-on,
since usually the hounds descend upon prey such as this pretty quickly.

Well, when I had proposed my house-ruling of the Cyber-limb prices,
somebody complained that it unbalances stuff. Specifically Muscle Replacement in that case.
This lead me to believe that all Cyberware, that influence bodily attributes,
need to be balanced to each other, more or less at least.
So I had to show them all.

The way I had planned it,
I would have just had you guys look them over,
and tell me whether you think there are no-brainers among them, or stuff you would never take. (Rules-standpoint)
Or whether something is too expensive/cheap for the setting. (Fluff-standpoint)
Or whether you think something should be so cheap/expensive that it is/isn't available in character creation. (Character-creation-standpoint)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 26 2015, 10:14 PM) *
So with that in mind, I go to:

2) If your plan is to balance things, I think it important to first define what is your metric for 'balanced'. How much is a +1 worth? Is a +1 Body worth as much as a +1 Intelligence? Should all things be balanced, or is it okay for some things to be very good values, while others are terrible values? Is the assumption that this is stuff on the market for anyone to buy, are these just Shadowrun things, or are they something else?


Again, there are three things one has to keep in mind while balancing stuff:
1) Is it too cheap/expensive for the effect it has?
2) Is it too cheap/expensive for the setting?
3) Should it be available in character creation? Specifically in SR: For which Priorities should it be available?

Point 1) can be balanced through Nuyen cost, and Essence cost.
Point 2) can be balanced mostly through Nuyen, since Essence is a more vague concept in fluff, that it is in crunch.
Point3) can be balanced only through Nuyen, not through Essence, but also through Availability (at least I think)

I have tried to keep all three points in mind while doing this.

Assigning a monetary value to a single attribute point is incredibly difficult,
which is why Essence exists.

Some ware has changing Essence cost though, where it really makes no sense, like Bone Lacing.
I would love to be able to balance that better, but making it exponentially more Nuyen costly instead, would be strange as well.
Maybe raising the availability a lot would help, I will look into that.
The assumption about things being available on the market is really where Availability comes in anyway,
this should have almost no bearing on the other stuff.

Edit:
I have a specific point I would opinions on.
Body Plating for Cyber-limbs appears to me as a no-brainer,
because it is way stronger than any of the alternatives which do not require Limbs.

Also, Dermal Plating sounds like it should raise armor, while it raises Body.

I may switch those around,
to make it so that buying Body Plating for Cyber-limbs adds 1 to you Body (max. 1 point per limb)
(which is the basic bonus Cyberware gave before, but I took out),
and make Dermal Plating give an armor bonus, like Troll Skin does, which makes more sense from a fluff standpoint.
This also alleviates the problem of Dermal Plating and Dermal Sheath basically being the same thing.
I'd have to adjust the prices again, but it sounds more logical to me.
Stahlseele
Well, it only raises body for the purpose of blunt or piercing physical damage.
Nothing else. Because it simply makes you a bit tougher. Same for Bonelace.(well, plastic and ceramic at least, no idea why kevlar and alu/titanium give armor)
Under SR3, raising armor is usually a giant "i win" button in combat scenarios.
Bertramn
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 27 2015, 12:51 PM) *
(well, plastic and ceramic at least, no idea why kevlar and alu/titanium give armor)

Bones get stronger the more strain they are exposed to.
This is similar to how your muscles work.
If you lace them with titanium, your bones will become brittle, and in relatively short order,
because the strain is put on the titanium instead,
so your actual Body would deteriorate, while your effective Body would be improved.
That is a pretty dark concept though, I like it.

As you said though, armor makes little sense.
Maybe against blunt weapons,
since they do not break as easily, but not as Ballistic Armor.

The different Essence cost might make sense,
If it has to do with the different melting points of the materials...

Thanks for the hint on Dermal Plating, I am gonna check that again.
I still think it should give armor though because it is the cyber equivalent of Troll skin, which does.
Changing the prices would be a must of course, and giving the opportunity to take 3 levels in it might be OP,
though that might me balanced out in Essence and Nuyen.
Stahlseele
No, Troll Dermal Armor does not give Armor in SR3 either.
Just one more point for Body against physical trauma damage.
In SR4, both Troll and Cyber Dermal Armor do provide Armor. 1/1 per Level.
SR3 Dermal Sheath(which is different from Dermal Plating), does provide both Body Dice and Armor again.
But only at higher levels. Bioware Orthoskin does not provide body, but only armor.
Bertramn
Right, it was Body here.
That's what you get for reading 3 Editions at the same time.
Can you tell me where it says that it is only for resistance against physical trauma?
Even Dermal Plating can be used against Toxins and such,
only not against healing. At least by RAW.

Anyway, I take back what I said about Dermal Plating and Armor,
Body fits the Bill just fine, if Troll Skin provides Body too.

Dermal Sheath though does not provide Armor.
It adds Rating+1 to your Body,
and can be modified to include Ruthenium Polymer -> Cameleon Fiber.
A Level 2 Dermal Sheath is a slightly more expensive version of Dermal Plating 3,
but you pay less Essence(!), and have the option to fit it with Ruthenium Polymer.

My thoughts go as follows:
Either one should do something different, or they should be the same thing.
The way it is now, we basically have 2 products, the basic kit:Cyber-Body-Armor, and the advanced kit:Better-Than-Regular-Cyber-Body-Armor.
Different grades in product quality should be represented by Cyber-ware grades and levels, not by different entries.

RANT:
Though Cyber-ware grades are already a fluff-vs-crunch nightmare.
"Buy this new Beta-Ware Cyberarm, it places only 60% the toll on your soul a regular model would. Buy it today for only 499.999,99 !"
In the fluff, Essence is loosely defined.
Cyber-ware-grades are defined as the different qualities in ware,
but not in the sense of a better equilibrium of soul-integrity, but as having better effects.
A Delta-3 Wired Reflexes system should make you faster than a Standard-3 one, at least by fluff.
It doesn't though, it only shreds your soul less.
Opening up an Essence-hole for Reaction Enhancements is a poor excuse for an advantage,
because it goes: pay extra -> so you can pay extra -> for extra effect,
instead of pay extra -> for extra effect.
The prices for higher ratings are already exponentially higher than lower ratings,
why should I pay double/quintuple/tenfold for a higher grade, without gaining anything from it?
In-game, the only effect this has is that the only time the players will touch Beta-Ware,
is when they pry it out of the cyber-zombie they just killed,
because no-one else will have it, because no-one needs to have it.
And even a Cyber-Zombie does not need more than Standard-Ware,
because he goes below 0 Essence anyway, so why bother?
Stahlseele
No, against toxins and poisons you only use your natural body attribute.
Both the Troll and the cyber stuff always count as improved/augmented attribute and thus do not count for resisting poisons and the such.
Bioware on the other hand always counts as natural Attribute, so the +1 Body from the Suprathyroid Gland would help against poison and disease.
Why would Titanium Bonelacing or Cyberlimbs help with resisting an injected poison for example?

And Dermal Sheath gives you impact armor too i think, but i am at work right now, can't readily check sources to back up my claims.

Screw it, i am IT, i remotely connected to home:
Dermal Sheath 1 : +2 Bod +1 impact Armor
Dermal Sheath 2 : +3 Bod +1 impact Armor
Dermal Sheath 3 : +4 Bod +2 impact Armor.
Bertramn
Damnit, you are right.
Thanks.

And that makes Dermal Sheath even more of a no-brainer RAW,
compared to Dermal Plating.
It costs a little more for the same effect, +1 Impact Armor.
Now it contends way more with Bone Lacing.
Stahlseele
Dermal Sheath also has a 50% higher Essence Cost compared to Dermal Plating and is much more expensive, so going to Level 3 Dermal Armor Alpha is much less of a Problem than going to Level 3 Dermal Sheath Alpha.
DS3A=1,68E and 240k Nuyen for +4Bod and +2 Impact Armor.
DA3A=1,20E and 090k Nuyen for +3Bod and +0 Impact Armor.
+2 impact and +1 Cyber Body is so not worth it for that difference in both price and Essence.
Rather use Alpha Plastic Bonelacing for another +1 Cyber Body and +2 Power for Unarmed for 0,40 Essence and 15k Nuyen.
Bertramn
RAW
Dermal Sheath 2 costs 1.4 Essence and 60k Nuyen for +3 Body and +1 Armor.
Dermal Plating 3 costs 1.5 Essence and 45k Nuyen for +3 Body

Or do you mean my stuff?
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