Except that they generally cannot compete against someone who can actually hide from them, while they cannot.



That is because Helicopters are stupid cheap in Shadowrun. Far cheaper than you would EVER see.



Lets not forget the Cerebral Booster Ware for up to an additional +3 Dice, and Hot SIM (which you do mention). As for the penalty for Running Silent, just get a Specialty for "Running Silent" and you no longer suffer the penalty.




Forgot to mention the +2 for being a Technomancer, sorry. Base 12 with Specialty and then +2 for Technomancer is 14 Dice.



But you need character depth (more than 4 players) to start fleshing out the extra job slots, otherwise you start seeing one character trying to fulfill multiple roles.



Except that PANs don't do anything in SR5. To get the Wireless Bonus, the device MUST be hooked directly to the Matrix. Otherwise, No Wireless Bonus. Whether this was intended or not is irrelevant. I know that you can always go back to the PAN of SR4 (I would, if my GM would allow that), but it is not supported by the Rules in SR5, yet. Maybe when Data Trails comes out we will get something.



Believe me, I get that. We don't do a lot of Street Level, mostly Professional Level. But We don't have any one with 500,000 Nuyen worth of ware, either.

Well, they can run silent. They can't re-hide if spotted, but then again, if the enemy decker fails sleaze action against them, neither can he.





Well, yeah, but decks are stupid expensive, too. I mean, the worst deck is more expensive than a heavy duty truck. That's just crazy. I mean, I know really high end computers can be expensive in the real world, but... sheesh.




Well, at Char Gen, you can only get a rating two CB due to availability. But, yeah. Specialized characters will be better than dabblers, which doesn't bother me so much.




Ah, ok. Yeah, I was really stressing over it for a minute: "How the hell does he have all those dice?! How do I do that". I won't lie, I don't mess with Technomancers at all.




Well, we do it with 3 or 4 guys. But, I'm also a big pusher for the idea that we should have broadly developed characters, rather than exceptional in a narrow field. I don't like the characters who show up with a guns dice pool in the twenties, but no background to explain it. "So... why are you better than a Tir Taingire ghost at shooting... but you... have no real other skills? What are you, a murder hobo? ". Basically, I assume that Dice pools of 10-12 are more than adequete for most tasks. No, we're not breaking into an MCT zero zone or the Renraku Arcology with those dice pools, But I assume that most runs are not of that level. So I try to keep players from making characters who just steamroll regular guys without thinking, but I also won't throw extremely high threat encounters without reason.

Basically, I feel that the challenges of taking on a regular run are that the corpSec have numbers and legitimacy, while you have a skill advantage, surprise and the violence of action to make up for it.






ugh. If there's a rules clarification that specifically states that devices in a PAN or WAN don't get wireless boni... that's one I will be ignoring. That's just silly.





Well, for me and my group, I've got the most time with the game(almost 15 to 16 years or something like that), my buddy has about half that experience, and the other three regulars(one who GMs) just started. We decided on street level because it eases them into the game, and what shadowrunning is about(critical thinking rather than trigger pulling, imho) without struggling with an overload of options. Also, I dislike the lack of character growth at professional level due to the higher cost of upgrading 'ware. I like that every session, we're gainign capabilities, getting a little closer to the lime light.

I figure that by the time our group is at the "professional" level in gear, we will have the sort of skills that you associate with Prime Runners. Which I like.

Sure they can... Remove the Mark, and then take a Hide Action.




Indeed they are... Worst design decision ever, in my opinion.



True, and agreed.



Yeah, my apologies.



I do the same thing, but not everyone at the table agrees with that design philosophy, though most don't go too crazy. DP's of 8-12 are my wheelhouse as well. If I can start with 9-10's in Primary and secondary skills, I am pretty happy. Sadly, I have noticed that you tend to start with skills a LOT higher in SR5 than in SR4A, at least for me. The boost is an average of about 3 Dice, because the goalposts have been moved a bit, with regards to Professionalism. What was once a Skill 3 (Professional) is now generally a Skill of 6 (Professional). Me, I tend to build to the Skill description, so as to avoid DP inconsistencies.



Sadly, that there be the rules. And a lot of people ignore it, I think; but if you go back to PAN's ala 4th Edition, then you have removed the easy hacks that the design team was looking for. It is pretty easy to secure a PAN. That is something that they wanted to avoid, lest the Hacker have nothing to do in a session. Not sure where that philosophy came from, because I ALWAYS had more than enough to do in SR4A as a Hacker, without adding additional crap to the mix.




No worries. We do a short campaign from time to time for street level play, but I don't really care for it. Professional Level still leaves a ton of growth room (Even in SSR4A), but it isn't for everyone.

Well, sure, but that's two passes the Hacker isn't attacking, so I'll take that. Gives our hacker time to fry his cortex.




Yeah, I've been quite vocal about my dislike of the shift from SR4 hacking to SR5. blah.




I just try to make sure the munchkins understand that if they start making this a problem, I will fucking kill them. No iffs, ands or buts. I'm the GM, I can have Lofwyr eat you if I want. Don't bring that powergaming "broken" shit to my table. If you think you're ever just gonan shoot your way outta trouble? I'll kill ya.




Well, I mean, I don't see how it's a big problem that PANs allow you to secure your wireless. I mean, what's the point, if they don't secure your wireless equipment? And... They're not impossible to crack, they just take some time and effort. But the other option is letting your cyber eyes get hacked because they can't resist for shit. Doesn't make sense to me. After-all, the risk you take when creatign a PAN is that an attack on any device in it can mark you, making you very vulnerable to additional attacks. Right?

But I jsut don't think you should be able to shut down a street sam by bricking his wired reflexes with an easy as hell test. Seems... broken to me.



Well, Like I said, I find street level to have a certain bit of charm, and it's nice for slow-growing characters. It's just what I like, I guess. Of course, two of my favorite aspects of the game(Deckign and Rigging) are very restricted in a street level game, but... meh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that some underestimate just how many signals are supposed to be out there. The book suggests that pretty much everything has an RFID chip that broadcasts constantly. Today, pretty much every store bought item has a small anti-theft chip. Imagine every single one of those broadcasted to the matrix. Now take any public surface with writing of any kind on it and assume that broadcasts too. Every label, every picture, every goddamn street sign broadcasts a copy of itself into the matrix for either information or advertisement purposes. And that's not even counting people. Roughly 95% of that will be filtered out by your comlinks spam filter, but the signals remain and each of them interferes with your scanning device. Heck, half of them are probably designed that way simply because Corp A wants to one-up Corp B's marketing campaign.

That warehouse in the Barrens isn't signal dark ever. It's filled with signals from the Styrofoam cup advertising it's Orange Mocha Frappuccino goodness to the actual crates that broadcast their ID signal. Which is important as hell because the warehouse's security system tracks those signals to ensure nothing moves during the night. The shelves the crates are on broadcast their weight tolerance levels for the insurance and their contents for the manifest. Every single corporate building would disable signal scanner based security after the first few hundred false alarms because James Scientist's new sneakers broadcast. Unless the facility you're breaking into is hermetically sealed against outside objects, it has a ton of signals just from everyday objects lying around. For a really weird image, Sarah Secretaries feminine hygiene product probably broadcasts on a special "female comlink only" frequency how much better her particular brand is than all the other ones. Try to keep that signal out of your office/ lab.

The point is, the matrix in SR5 doesn't just have signals from electronic devices and a few extras. Its a veritable ocean of icons that make filters mandatory to just be able to see the freaking street. When looked at it that way, "hiding in plain sight" makes a lot more sense for the runners than being a black hole in the matrix. Going signal dark has it's places, but in a world so full with signals, it carries a big risk too. Either way, it's a judgement call. Either you run online for the bonuses, trying to blend into the background or you go dark and risk being noticed because you went dark.

Unless you're running in some place like a luxury shopping mall where a system actually might exist to detect a Ms Nobody caught on camera while not even broadcasting a SIN, a lack of broadcasting signals isn't going to set off an alert. (The decker should deal with cameras and motion sensors in those cases.) However, if you carry a jammer that causes signals around you to cease working, somebody might notice that. Sophisticated security setups might even have software to automatically detect it.

We're supposed to believe that standards of personal liberty actual rise in the 6th world? Hah!

Deckers have the ability to brick gear and 'ware, but there are lots of ways to protect yourself against it. A rating: 6 commlink that everything is slaved to, running in hidden mode on the public grid, is a start. You can also keep an area jammer running during combat. For things like autopickers and medkits, only turn on the wireless for the brief, usually out-of-combat times that you use them. Keeping wireless off is another option - most of the benefits aren't really worth the risk. The only two significant ones are the smartlink bonus, and being able to combine wired reflexes and reaction enhancers. But you have to ask yourself, is +2 dice worth potentially being crippled or blinded over, even if an enemy decker's chances are actually slim?

From the decker end, hopefully not everyone else will use shadowrunner-level matrix savviness, so that they will be able to do something. In addition to bricking gear and 'ware, they can also mess with building security, communication networks, and sometimes drones.


One thing that has changed in SR5 (from SR4) is that while the overall power level and potential dice pools have gone up, shadowrunners are less powerful compared to the rest of the game world. Even mouthbreathing thugs throw down six dice for attacks and passive dodging, while contacts often have skills higher than six. Look at the fixer's negotiation skill, and look at how many skills of five or six the beat cop contact has. Skills go up to 12/13 now, so shadowrunners aren't starting out as the best of the best now.

However, character creation, as always, lets you make characters of widely diverging effectiveness. There are two philosophies of creating shadowrunners - they can be ordinary folk forced into a life of crime, or they can be tough professionals. The game rules let you make both types of characters, so you should make sure your players are either on the same page, or able to live and let live as far as playstyles (players with street level characters not whining about being less effective, players with pro level characters not hogging the spotlight or being bullies).


Potential game balance issues:

Humans are more competitive, but the main way they balanced them was by giving them more special Attribute points. So humans with high Edge will be a lot more common. On the bright side, the Edge rules are one of the areas SR5 actually improved upon - they have been tightened up, and are a lot more clear. It is still something to be aware of, if high Edge has given you any problems in the past.

While spells have been nerfed a bit, spirits are more powerful. Immunity to normal weapons gives you some auto-successes now, so while the higher damage codes make it slightly easy to hurt a spirit, it will also soak the damage better. One problem, though, is that you use Reaction and Intuition for passive defense. Since spirits usually have Force plus a bonus for Reaction, and Force for Intuition, this gives moderately high-Force spirits a very good dice pool for passive defense, making them even harder to hit in the first place.

Mystic adepts are potentially very powerful, in that for giving up astral projection, you can start out with 6 power points (a big chunk of your starting Karma, and obviously you need some negative quality points to pay for it - but still doable) on top of being able to cast spells and summon spirits.

Overall, character creation is similar to SR4. You can create an average Joe, or you can create a mage with an Edge of 7 who tosses 20 dice for combat spells and is still decently well-rounded. So just as with SR4, it is best to have a group consensus on the power level. One thing about SR5 Priority is that it is NOT as scalable for more street-level campaigns. Their "low-power" rules tend to affect mundane techie characters a lot more than they affect awakened characters. Point Buy (their verion of Karmagen) is not much better, either - an adept with Magic: 6 costs 120 Karma, versus 200 karma if you want 400,000 Nuyen to make a street samurai or decker. If you want a lower-powered campaign, you will need either cooperative players using normal character creation rules, or a lot of house rules.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about getting spotted on a run.

And all these signal sources are white-listed for the scanners. That's a non-issue.

There is absolutely no risk to going signal dark using your rationale above. You would never notice that a person is signal dark in an ocean of signals.
And of course, in an area with no signals, signal dark is far superior.

That's the thing that bugs me about 'well, signal dark people will stand out' as an argument. Noise is a mechanic for a reason, your average luser can't make a successful matrix perception check in it... and per the base books, most densely populated areas (sprawl downtown, for example) have a Noise rating of at least 2 inherently.

Indeed... And also aside from the [SR5] fact that noise above the DR means the device is not on the matrix anyways.

heh, which means that the majority of devices don't function. Which is.... Well, heh, I'm not saying companies don't do stupid things, but buying RFIDs that they can't use because of noise would be, well, the height of folly. Having commlinks that their guards can't use for anything, that's kinda dumb. I mean, I guess it's how the rules work, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense doing that, and it leads to some... heh... moments.

One of the things I can rant out about is the way I hated the change back to "exclusive" hacking. While I understand that the entry level was too low, perhaps, in fourth, I felt it helped to make everybody an active participant in the matrix in someway. But, man, I don't think this current edition is an improvement. Maybe a lateral shift.

Allowing Commlinks to hack isn't a gamebreaker. We've been allowing commlinks to load programs for a long time, and it's not very bad at all. You just let'em run programs equal to device rating, and give them a sleaze and attack rating of 0. Different programs can, of course, change those stats. We've also made rules for improved Stealth programs(Ghost; +1 to sleaze, -1 to data processing), which of course, isn't canon. But it gives a nice bridge towards decking, which is especially useful if you play a street level game, but want to have more of a "hacker kids" vibe. OR if you just hate the stupid, obscene costs of decks. I prefer to half their cost, honestly, but that's me.

Also, we do noise a bit differently: seperating the two a little bit. Mostly, noise is just a dice pool modifier. Spam Zones never sever your matrix connection, they just make it so overwhelmed that you can't do much with it, while static zones can simply have such faint matrix connectivity that there's nothing for you to handshake in range. For most actions, it's obvious that noise applies, though there's a few exceptions:

Hidden icons or networks are easier to hide in spam zones, to the extent that a device running silent gains boni to their dice pool equal to the spam rating. Icons using the Hide matrix action recieve a bonus equal to the spam rating. Conversely, static zones, provide a bonus to matrix perception tests instead of a penalty: there's less to look at, so you can look a bit closer at each signal. Also, if a static zone's rating is above device rating, then... well.. there's nothing for your device to communicate with, and you can't use the matrix.

Networks can be nested, so that you can have, for example, your personal inventory slaved to your commlink, three other members of your team could do the same, and then the decker can slave the whole thing to his deck. Each branching of the network increases noise for the network. For example, say you have a team of 4, and they want to share a network, to be protected by the decker. They all slave their commlinks to the decker's cyberdeck, creating a tier 0 network. Now, the shadowrunners(Ariel, Bonefish and Coyote) each want to have their own networks of devices, slaved to their commlinks. These three networks would all consist of Commlinks for A, B, and C, but have different devices slaved to them, and be a tier 1 network(and have a noise of 1, and a penalty to matrix defense actions equal to the network's tier, or 1). Ariel and Coyote are both awakened characters and consequently have little in the way of additional gear, while bonefish decides he wants to have two subsidary networks, one for his cyberware and one for his guns and ammo, in addition to his armor, commlink and other miscellaneous personal things. Both of his networks are tier 2, and suffer from noise equal to the tier(well, a noise modifier in addition) as well as a penalty to matrix defense rolls equal to the tier.

Generally speaking, you're limited in tiers by device rating: if most devices have a rating of 2, then a tier 3 network creates too much noise for them. If that makes any sense.

And, of course, as I earlier stated: having a dni connection to something is good enough for the wireless bonus in my world. Well, provided you have a connection, at all. And of course, it can't be hacked then, except for through a direct connection. We also made rules for a cable splitter, so the really security minded can minimize their vulnerability to hackers.

heh, which means that the majority of devices don't function. Which is.... Well, heh, I'm not saying companies don't do stupid things, but buying RFIDs that they can't use because of noise would be, well, the height of folly. Having commlinks that their guards can't use for anything, that's kinda dumb. I mean, I guess it's how the rules work, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense doing that, and it leads to some... heh... moments.

One of the things I can rant out about is the way I hated the change back to "exclusive" hacking. While I understand that the entry level was too low, perhaps, in fourth, I felt it helped to make everybody an active participant in the matrix in someway. But, man, I don't think this current edition is an improvement. Maybe a lateral shift.

Allowing Commlinks to hack isn't a gamebreaker. We've been allowing commlinks to load programs for a long time, and it's not very bad at all. You just let'em run programs equal to device rating, and give them a sleaze and attack rating of 0. Different programs can, of course, change those stats. We've also made rules for improved Stealth programs(Ghost; +1 to sleaze, -1 to data processing), which of course, isn't canon. But it gives a nice bridge towards decking, which is especially useful if you play a street level game, but want to have more of a "hacker kids" vibe. OR if you just hate the stupid, obscene costs of decks. I prefer to half their cost, honestly, but that's me.

Also, we do noise a bit differently: seperating the two a little bit. Mostly, noise is just a dice pool modifier. Spam Zones never sever your matrix connection, they just make it so overwhelmed that you can't do much with it, while static zones can simply have such faint matrix connectivity that there's nothing for you to handshake in range. For most actions, it's obvious that noise applies, though there's a few exceptions:

Hidden icons or networks are easier to hide in spam zones, to the extent that a device running silent gains boni to their dice pool equal to the spam rating. Icons using the Hide matrix action recieve a bonus equal to the spam rating. Conversely, static zones, provide a bonus to matrix perception tests instead of a penalty: there's less to look at, so you can look a bit closer at each signal. Also, if a static zone's rating is above device rating, then... well.. there's nothing for your device to communicate with, and you can't use the matrix.

Networks can be nested, so that you can have, for example, your personal inventory slaved to your commlink, three other members of your team could do the same, and then the decker can slave the whole thing to his deck. Each branching of the network increases noise for the network. For example, say you have a team of 4, and they want to share a network, to be protected by the decker. They all slave their commlinks to the decker's cyberdeck, creating a tier 0 network. Now, the shadowrunners(Ariel, Bonefish and Coyote) each want to have their own networks of devices, slaved to their commlinks. These three networks would all consist of Commlinks for A, B, and C, but have different devices slaved to them, and be a tier 1 network(and have a noise of 1, and a penalty to matrix defense actions equal to the network's tier, or 1). Ariel and Coyote are both awakened characters and consequently have little in the way of additional gear, while bonefish decides he wants to have two subsidary networks, one for his cyberware and one for his guns and ammo, in addition to his armor, commlink and other miscellaneous personal things. Both of his networks are tier 2, and suffer from noise equal to the tier(well, a noise modifier in addition) as well as a penalty to matrix defense rolls equal to the tier.

Generally speaking, you're limited in tiers by device rating: if most devices have a rating of 2, then a tier 3 network creates too much noise for them. If that makes any sense.

And, of course, as I earlier stated: having a dni connection to something is good enough for the wireless bonus in my world. Well, provided you have a connection, at all. And of course, it can't be hacked then, except for through a direct connection. We also made rules for a cable splitter, so the really security minded can minimize their vulnerability to hackers.

Heh. Ok. Let's say that warehouse in the barrens is some sort of distribution center(I have the most experience with this). Well, my local hub isn't very big(we're ranked in the smallest of hub designs in the country), but we do around 300,000 packages in a week(on our shift, probably about 70-80 of that on the other shift). Now, in shadowrun, each one of those packages would probably have an RFID tag for it's label, so that workers with AR goggles and gloves can track'em and move'em. Each one of those workers with issued equipment has to be tracked. Then you've got the powered equipment and trailers(lumped into powered equipment, but not specifically powered) which has to be inventoried. That's a sea of noise, for what isn't a very big facility(1600 Cottonwood, Charlotte, NC, google it! Any questions, just ask), while our CACH, Illinois facility is simply massive, doing around a million packages a day, running through 4 shifts.


So, you've got considerable background noise to blend into. If you're commlinks can hop between frequencies and get close to a whitelisted signal, then they can be missed or confused for an error or duplicate scan. Again, a sea of noise, and if you have a signal that's only transmitting in bursts, hopping around frequencies and encrypted, then it's within plausible for suspension of disbelief that someone could miss that on a routine look.

I really think you undersell the amount of signals out there, whitelisted or not, for everything to get inspected in detail.

I think that you undersell the fact that all those signals will likely be public and removable with Filters. Aside from the fact that they will generate so much noise that none of them will work anyways.

This is the first thing I have read which almost makes me interested in trying 5e.

*your definition of "usable" may be different

aaaand I'm right back to that same hesitancy I had before...

Touche! Heh.

It's usable. So long as you use a little common sense and don't follow the stupid rules "clarifications" that nerf networks and wireless. The biggest problem that we have as a group, is that the decks are so freakin' expensive, and until you shoot up to the DR3+ decks, you're not going to be able to do much: the attribute limits for Sleaze and Attack are just absolutely brutal.

I think something like a .75 cost modifier would help to fix the problems with cost. And some more programs would help. For example, we've created some programs that stack with Decrypt and Sneak, but penalize Firewall or Data Response, to allow you to actually exceed some of the limits a little bit more.

Now, in practice, what we've found is that at the low-end, matrix defender's have the advantage. Consider the Erika MCD-1, with the 4321 array. If you're just trying to defend, then you put firewall at 4, Sleaze at 3, Data Response at 2, and attack at 1. Run the firewall +1 program(or Virtual machine, and Firewall + something else), and now, depending on your willpower, you're going to have around a 10 or so dice pool, and since matrix defense tests have no limit, you're ok. Because if you're throwing 10-12 dice with no limit, but your opponent is throwing 12, but with a limit of 4 or lower, you're probably going to be able to sharply limit exploitation. And you have to sacrifice your fire-wall to get the advantage.

The primary problem with this is that since your offensive dice pools are derived from meat attribute + meat skill, with a limit equal to deck attribute, while defensive stats are Meat attribute + deck attribute, an offensive hack has to invest a lot into their skills, attributes AND resources, while a defender doesn't have to invest much into anything. This doesn't change as you go up to a Fairlight, as a Willpower 6 guy with a fairlight with Firewall 10 is throwing 16 dice with no limit, for no real non monetary investment.

Generally speaking, for an offensive hacker to be effective, he needs to have 33% more dice pool than the target(so he can get a net success), AND a limit of around half the opposing dice pool(so he can beat lucky rolls). It's an odd thing.