SR4. Unwired, page 55, Slaving, first paragraph, second sentence: "... slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections... and instantly forwards any connection attempts to the master." So yes, apparently. Except: Unwired, page 54, Routing, first paragraph, second sentence: "Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4)." Emphasis mine.
Which is why all important nodes are Hidden and Slaved. Theoretically you can just use the mesh to reroute to get to the Master node, but it's still hidden, remember? I'd rule (though I couldn't prove it in the rules without more research) that you would have to do a separate Search function to find the Master remotely like that.
Full Version: Why play a Street Samurai?
Awesome, tyvm. That makes perfect sense, when you include the "hidden mode means not a router" qualifier.
I've been out of the game for nearly three years, but it's good to see I innately remember how things work even if it takes me a little resource consultation to brush off exactly why it works.
QUOTE (2XS @ Sep 2 2015, 05:45 PM) 
Changing what the drone does shouldn't cost another task; changing what the Sprite does will. And while I agree that "Pilot this node" is nebulous and open ended, it seems within the bounds of the rules as written. It doesn't get really cheesy until you realize that all the drones clustered like that count as one node, and the Sprite counts as "in" all of the drones simultaneously, and all that that implies.
Also, the fact that only Awakened can disrupt spells and only TMs can hack TMs again lends itself to the whole "mundanes get the short end of the stick" thing I started this thread with. Mages aren't OP, as long as there's a Mage around to disrupt his buffs. TMs aren't OP, as long as there's a TM handy to Decompile his Sprites and hack his Bionode. Street Samurai, well... no special immunities there.
Case in point: if you come across a group of a Mage, TM with at least one combat drone, and a Street Samurai, who would you focus on last? Pretty sure it'd be the Street Samurai.
Also, the fact that only Awakened can disrupt spells and only TMs can hack TMs again lends itself to the whole "mundanes get the short end of the stick" thing I started this thread with. Mages aren't OP, as long as there's a Mage around to disrupt his buffs. TMs aren't OP, as long as there's a TM handy to Decompile his Sprites and hack his Bionode. Street Samurai, well... no special immunities there.
Case in point: if you come across a group of a Mage, TM with at least one combat drone, and a Street Samurai, who would you focus on last? Pretty sure it'd be the Street Samurai.
To be honest, we have had little issues with Mundane dealing with Awakened/Emergent characters more often than not. They both are highly susceptible to high-speed projectiles.
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Every 3rd dice roll is a success.
Actually, you Buy 1 Hit for 4 Dice. This was what Neraph was talking about when he indicated 1 hit per 4 dice. Even in 5th Edition. See "Buying Hits" SR5, Page 45.
And yes, Serbitar, Elemental Damage does work against Spirits. It has an effect upon ARMOR (just as all AP has an effect), which aids in punching through it. Also, when you check for Immunity and adjudicate the Damage, you also have to take into account the AP of the weapon doing Damage. So that Force 6 Spirit with 12 Armor impacted by a Weapon with -5 AP reduces that Armor to 7. Half of 7 is just 3.5 (rounded down). So that Spirit now only has 3 levels of automatic Reduced damage rather than 6.
And please note, Serbitar, Spirits on a Remote Service still count as your One Unbound Spirit. They are not released until after the Service Is Completed. In other words, if you summon a spirit and give it a remote service, you cannot summon another one (for your unbound slot) until that service is completed.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 3 2015, 06:40 PM)
To be honest, we have had little issues with Mundane dealing with Awakened/Emergent characters more often than not. They both are highly susceptible to high-speed projectiles.
I always liked the quote from the Vlad Taltos series:
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 3 2015, 08:54 PM)
I always liked the quote from the Vlad Taltos series:
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust
Words to live by.
My wife's Face has a poison gland in her mouth. She can kill people at dinner parties with her fork, and gives new meaning to "kiss of death."
One of my friends played an ork with a chemical gland in her vagina that killed people when she had sex with them.
...
"You spent so much time wondering if you could that you didn't spend any time wondering if you should."
...
"You spent so much time wondering if you could that you didn't spend any time wondering if you should."
omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol
QUOTE (2XS @ Sep 3 2015, 11:57 PM)
omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol
Maybe she wears a paper bag over her head? just kidding Neraph!
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 4 2015, 01:44 AM)
Actually, you Buy 1 Hit for 4 Dice. This was what Neraph was talking about when he indicated 1 hit per 4 dice. Even in 5th Edition. See "Buying Hits" SR5, Page 45.
And yes, Serbitar, Elemental Damage does work against Spirits. It has an effect upon ARMOR (just as all AP has an effect), which aids in punching through it. Also, when you check for Immunity and adjudicate the Damage, you also have to take into account the AP of the weapon doing Damage. So that Force 6 Spirit with 12 Armor impacted by a Weapon with -5 AP reduces that Armor to 7. Half of 7 is just 3.5 (rounded down). So that Spirit now only has 3 levels of automatic Reduced damage rather than 6.
And please note, Serbitar, Spirits on a Remote Service still count as your One Unbound Spirit. They are not released until after the Service Is Completed. In other words, if you summon a spirit and give it a remote service, you cannot summon another one (for your unbound slot) until that service is completed.
And yes, Serbitar, Elemental Damage does work against Spirits. It has an effect upon ARMOR (just as all AP has an effect), which aids in punching through it. Also, when you check for Immunity and adjudicate the Damage, you also have to take into account the AP of the weapon doing Damage. So that Force 6 Spirit with 12 Armor impacted by a Weapon with -5 AP reduces that Armor to 7. Half of 7 is just 3.5 (rounded down). So that Spirit now only has 3 levels of automatic Reduced damage rather than 6.
And please note, Serbitar, Spirits on a Remote Service still count as your One Unbound Spirit. They are not released until after the Service Is Completed. In other words, if you summon a spirit and give it a remote service, you cannot summon another one (for your unbound slot) until that service is completed.
I know the buying hits rule. But when calculating average performance of actual dice rolls it's irrelevant.
Your interpretation of hardened Armor concerning auto hits and penetration is contradicted by the wording in the Immunity Power section. But yes it's contradicting the wording in Hardened Armor section (but you round up instead of down).
5th edition rules are contradictory crap.
That leave you (with the favourable interpretation) with:
Taser 9/-5 = 10 - 4 - 14/3 = 1.33 damage
IF you hit him!
My simple point is: For a complex action and 0-1 drain (on average) you get the power of a street sam (dont you think that with the stats the F6 fire elemental has he has about the power of a starting street sam? 14 dice attacking, 16 dice defending, lots of armor, 12p/-6 damage) that does not have to sneak in and does not have to hide his weapon while going in and can be summoned again if dead.
Whats your thinking here? Isnt that a valid point?
And as I said for 1-2 points of edge (the second for drain resistance if the drain was too high) you can get force 10 and then the game is over. Again with a complex action, again without having to sneak the big obvious weapon into the facility first.
I am always hearing that some specifics are wrong, but what about the bigger picture? Why do I need a combat character if I can just take a mage and spend some points on summoning?
Are other character concepts fun and playable? Hell yes, but why the heck does a mage get so much in one package? Levitation costs 5 karma to learn and then you can basically fly (with laughable drain). An adept has to spend points and points to just run 4 meters up a wall!
In 5th,there is no limit on unbound spirits. There is some vague wording that you can only summon one at a time (they either mean summon only 1 at the the same time, in which case you can summon more later, or have summoned only one at the same time, in which case you cant bind, crappy rules). But as I said you just wait till its dead and get a new one then. At some point the opposition will go down.
QUOTE (2XS @ Sep 3 2015, 09:57 PM)
omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol
Have you seen the 4th Ed Gun Adept pic? She's surprisingly cute. That's not even taking into consideration whatever fetishes abound in the 2070's. Troll-on-dwarf porn was a running gag at my tables.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 4 2015, 11:50 AM)
Have you seen the 4th Ed Gun Adept pic? She's surprisingly cute. That's not even taking into consideration whatever fetishes abound in the 2070's. Troll-on-dwarf porn was a running gag at my tables.
You haven't seen anything until you have seen a Blue Mage into Pixies.
Lets see.... Why play a street Sammie?.?.?..
Because you can or want to. That's all there is to it.
I've been hearing back and forth arguments about mages superior mundains inferior. Well, partly true. I find bullets are the great equalizer.
So mage summons level 10 spirit; bullet finds mage; spirit goes away... Bullet the great equalizer.
The next thing; most of the arguments I'm hearing sounds like an argument about PC's....
Who the hell cares if you ally summons a level 10 spirit *just pray he keeps control, doesn't go unconscious; drain doesn't kill him*. All bad guys now focus on spirit (if they don't see the mage and put a bullet in his head *Bullet again equalizing* and street sammie starts putting bullets in bad guy heads *again with the equalizing*
Now I have no problem throwing a little magic in the way of players (even if they don't have a mage) but I would never (as a GM) in my right frackn mind throw a level 6 force spirit let alone a level 10 force spirit at a new party if the didn't have the means to kill it.
It is the responsibility of the GM to have things balanced at his/her table so all players have fun. I love SR and have played every edition up to 4a (working on reading up on 5 so I can run a new party). one of the things I love about it is I can do so many things and this alone has the potential of making the game unbalanced augmented, mage, Techie or none of the above. Why, because with all the rules the balance is all in how you play the game.
I played where I've had characters die and ran games where I've killed characters (both intentionally and unintentionally). We all should have; I find it one of the reasons I like the game. The characters can die just as easily in the beginning as they can in the end and usually from a careless mistake or unlucky circumstance and usually from a bullet *Damn equalizer*
Just remember if the game is unbalanced; it's the GM's fault (not RAW).
So with all of that in mind.... What the hell is everyone arguing about??????
MY 2
*now that I'm broke*
Mr J, What do you have for runs?
Because you can or want to. That's all there is to it.
I've been hearing back and forth arguments about mages superior mundains inferior. Well, partly true. I find bullets are the great equalizer.
So mage summons level 10 spirit; bullet finds mage; spirit goes away... Bullet the great equalizer.
The next thing; most of the arguments I'm hearing sounds like an argument about PC's....
Who the hell cares if you ally summons a level 10 spirit *just pray he keeps control, doesn't go unconscious; drain doesn't kill him*. All bad guys now focus on spirit (if they don't see the mage and put a bullet in his head *Bullet again equalizing* and street sammie starts putting bullets in bad guy heads *again with the equalizing*
Now I have no problem throwing a little magic in the way of players (even if they don't have a mage) but I would never (as a GM) in my right frackn mind throw a level 6 force spirit let alone a level 10 force spirit at a new party if the didn't have the means to kill it.
It is the responsibility of the GM to have things balanced at his/her table so all players have fun. I love SR and have played every edition up to 4a (working on reading up on 5 so I can run a new party). one of the things I love about it is I can do so many things and this alone has the potential of making the game unbalanced augmented, mage, Techie or none of the above. Why, because with all the rules the balance is all in how you play the game.
I played where I've had characters die and ran games where I've killed characters (both intentionally and unintentionally). We all should have; I find it one of the reasons I like the game. The characters can die just as easily in the beginning as they can in the end and usually from a careless mistake or unlucky circumstance and usually from a bullet *Damn equalizer*
Just remember if the game is unbalanced; it's the GM's fault (not RAW).
So with all of that in mind.... What the hell is everyone arguing about??????
MY 2
*now that I'm broke*
Mr J, What do you have for runs?
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Sep 4 2015, 12:41 AM)
I know the buying hits rule. But when calculating average performance of actual dice rolls it's irrelevant.
Your interpretation of hardened Armor concerning auto hits and penetration is contradicted by the wording in the Immunity Power section. But yes it's contradicting the wording in Hardened Armor section (but you round up instead of down).
5th edition rules are contradictory crap.
That leave you (with the favourable interpretation) with:
Taser 9/-5 = 10 - 4 - 14/3 = 1.33 damage
IF you hit him!
My simple point is: For a complex action and 0-1 drain (on average) you get the power of a street sam (dont you think that with the stats the F6 fire elemental has he has about the power of a starting street sam? 14 dice attacking, 16 dice defending, lots of armor, 12p/-6 damage) that does not have to sneak in and does not have to hide his weapon while going in and can be summoned again if dead.
Whats your thinking here? Isnt that a valid point?
And as I said for 1-2 points of edge (the second for drain resistance if the drain was too high) you can get force 10 and then the game is over. Again with a complex action, again without having to sneak the big obvious weapon into the facility first.
I am always hearing that some specifics are wrong, but what about the bigger picture? Why do I need a combat character if I can just take a mage and spend some points on summoning?
Are other character concepts fun and playable? Hell yes, but why the heck does a mage get so much in one package? Levitation costs 5 karma to learn and then you can basically fly (with laughable drain). An adept has to spend points and points to just run 4 meters up a wall!
In 5th,there is no limit on unbound spirits. There is some vague wording that you can only summon one at a time (they either mean summon only 1 at the the same time, in which case you can summon more later, or have summoned only one at the same time, in which case you cant bind, crappy rules). But as I said you just wait till its dead and get a new one then. At some point the opposition will go down.
Your interpretation of hardened Armor concerning auto hits and penetration is contradicted by the wording in the Immunity Power section. But yes it's contradicting the wording in Hardened Armor section (but you round up instead of down).
5th edition rules are contradictory crap.
That leave you (with the favourable interpretation) with:
Taser 9/-5 = 10 - 4 - 14/3 = 1.33 damage
IF you hit him!
My simple point is: For a complex action and 0-1 drain (on average) you get the power of a street sam (dont you think that with the stats the F6 fire elemental has he has about the power of a starting street sam? 14 dice attacking, 16 dice defending, lots of armor, 12p/-6 damage) that does not have to sneak in and does not have to hide his weapon while going in and can be summoned again if dead.
Whats your thinking here? Isnt that a valid point?
And as I said for 1-2 points of edge (the second for drain resistance if the drain was too high) you can get force 10 and then the game is over. Again with a complex action, again without having to sneak the big obvious weapon into the facility first.
I am always hearing that some specifics are wrong, but what about the bigger picture? Why do I need a combat character if I can just take a mage and spend some points on summoning?
Are other character concepts fun and playable? Hell yes, but why the heck does a mage get so much in one package? Levitation costs 5 karma to learn and then you can basically fly (with laughable drain). An adept has to spend points and points to just run 4 meters up a wall!
In 5th,there is no limit on unbound spirits. There is some vague wording that you can only summon one at a time (they either mean summon only 1 at the the same time, in which case you can summon more later, or have summoned only one at the same time, in which case you cant bind, crappy rules). But as I said you just wait till its dead and get a new one then. At some point the opposition will go down.
You forgot the most important part of having spirits over being a sam. Spirits get their own initiative passes, so in theory you can be rocking up to 10 passes a round with 3 force 6 elementals and one for yourself.
QUOTE (2XS @ Sep 3 2015, 11:57 PM)
omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol
Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 4 2015, 05:15 PM)
Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork.
MMMmmm... Pork, it's what's for dinner.
QUOTE (KnightAries @ Sep 5 2015, 02:00 AM)
MMMmmm... Pork, it's what's for dinner.
"Orc: the other, other, *other* white meat."
I am curious what causes background count in SR5. In the edition I play, summoning a F6 spirit is going to generate a BC which affects future summoning AND Drain tests. On the confrontation end, I am assuming having a F6 spirit attack is going to cause BC count or there is already a BC from an ongoing fight. The presence of a F6 or greater spirit of itself could cause a BC or add to an existing BC due to the emotion of a fight or violence. Depending on the actual location, there may be an existing BC to which violence, or magic adds.
I also wonder how the Conjurer is directing the spirits to the fight? I can understand if it is a conjurer tasked with sending spirit support to a known location, such as a corp Security Mage to a corp facility, but I am wondering how a PC is directing these endless spirits to the fight? Even an astral traveler needs landmarks and can not travel in 'quick time' when trying to locate landmarks, then on to the 'next left at the big rock'. If it is 'find my fellow PC', it is going to take time. And how is the Summoner directing the spirit to attack when there are friends or neutral parties at the location? Spirits are NPCs, so a GM has every right to interpret the Mages directions as well as they are given. I guess after the first Fire spirit gets there it may simply be, "Look for the burning building." Which brings up the next observation, that most modern buildings have fire suppression systems that are going to get triggered when the spirit appears. I guess I'm missing something, but directing spirits remotely seems much more difficult than I've seen accounted for. If the Conjurer has some magical way to guide it to the fight, can't the opponents use the magic link to backtrack to the conjurers not so safe house?
Are there no Noticing Magic Use rules in 5th? It was TN4 + Magic Att - Force. not too hard to notice a Magic 6 character doing F6 magic.
As to the OP figuring Magic or TM can do everything a mundane can plus...perhaps, but not to start. Every time I go to build one of those, I wind up with a character with minimal attributes and the majority of skills dedicated to their specialty, in short, they can do that one thing and barely function in other areas. Yes there are spells that can substitute for mundane means, but there are never enough spell points to do hardly any after taking a few must have spells. And they are karma sinks, so even during play, they are going to be a long time gaining the karma to get all those spells and get decent attributes, then by the time they are getting some of the skills mundanes started with, the mundanes retire their PC and the campaign ends.
I also wonder how the Conjurer is directing the spirits to the fight? I can understand if it is a conjurer tasked with sending spirit support to a known location, such as a corp Security Mage to a corp facility, but I am wondering how a PC is directing these endless spirits to the fight? Even an astral traveler needs landmarks and can not travel in 'quick time' when trying to locate landmarks, then on to the 'next left at the big rock'. If it is 'find my fellow PC', it is going to take time. And how is the Summoner directing the spirit to attack when there are friends or neutral parties at the location? Spirits are NPCs, so a GM has every right to interpret the Mages directions as well as they are given. I guess after the first Fire spirit gets there it may simply be, "Look for the burning building." Which brings up the next observation, that most modern buildings have fire suppression systems that are going to get triggered when the spirit appears. I guess I'm missing something, but directing spirits remotely seems much more difficult than I've seen accounted for. If the Conjurer has some magical way to guide it to the fight, can't the opponents use the magic link to backtrack to the conjurers not so safe house?
Are there no Noticing Magic Use rules in 5th? It was TN4 + Magic Att - Force. not too hard to notice a Magic 6 character doing F6 magic.
As to the OP figuring Magic or TM can do everything a mundane can plus...perhaps, but not to start. Every time I go to build one of those, I wind up with a character with minimal attributes and the majority of skills dedicated to their specialty, in short, they can do that one thing and barely function in other areas. Yes there are spells that can substitute for mundane means, but there are never enough spell points to do hardly any after taking a few must have spells. And they are karma sinks, so even during play, they are going to be a long time gaining the karma to get all those spells and get decent attributes, then by the time they are getting some of the skills mundanes started with, the mundanes retire their PC and the campaign ends.
Magic is versatile, but that post seemed a bit hyperbolic to me. Mind probe doesn't replace a skilled interrogator or legwork - you need to nab someone who has the information, and know what questions to ask. Mental manipulations don't replace a face at negotiations - in fact, using them too often or too carelessly can have disastrous consequences. And invisibility combined with stealth won't turn a mage into a covert ops specialist - there are still pressure pads, ultrasound, locked doors...
I'm not saying mages with a good selection of spells aren't versatile, but they don't render mundane skills superfluous.
But spirits are a bit OP in SR5. It is slightly easier to damage them if you hit them, but with higher dodging pools and automatic successes resisting damage, you won't damage them a lot.
Despite the many nerfs to mundanes, though, it is still possible to make a nice, sneaky break-in specialist, a lethal street samurai, or a character with a mix of social, stealth, and combat skills.
I'm not saying mages with a good selection of spells aren't versatile, but they don't render mundane skills superfluous.
But spirits are a bit OP in SR5. It is slightly easier to damage them if you hit them, but with higher dodging pools and automatic successes resisting damage, you won't damage them a lot.
Despite the many nerfs to mundanes, though, it is still possible to make a nice, sneaky break-in specialist, a lethal street samurai, or a character with a mix of social, stealth, and combat skills.
You can overcome any level of magic or resonance with a sufficient quantity of explosives.
If you are having difficulties, use more.
-k
If you are having difficulties, use more.
-k
Thor cannons don't care about ItNW either - if you hit, everything in X radius is simply dead. Lasers also do wonders against ItNW.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 3 2015, 05:12 PM)
Thor cannons don't care about ItNW either - if you hit, everything in X radius is simply dead. Lasers also do wonders against ItNW.
Was that sarcasm?
I can't recall either being used in a serious way, only as a joke. But back then Lasers were pretty much mythical and Thor shots were cows falling from the sky.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 4 2015, 07:15 PM)
Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork.
In real life life there are guys who have a thing for midgets, or like xxxxxl sized women, or like women so skinny you can't figure out how they haven't died from starvation... to each his own.
So why is it far fetched that instead of having the hots for the steroid laden human female bodybuilder, someone has the hots for an orc that has them muscles naturally.
QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Nov 3 2015, 09:26 PM)
In real life life there are guys who have a thing for midgets, or like xxxxxl sized women, or like women so skinny you can't figure out how they haven't died from starvation... to each his own.
So why is it far fetched that instead of having the hots for the steroid laden human female bodybuilder, someone has the hots for an orc that has them muscles naturally.
So why is it far fetched that instead of having the hots for the steroid laden human female bodybuilder, someone has the hots for an orc that has them muscles naturally.
It's not far fetched at all, which is why I made that comment. You will note others may have made jokes about the comment, but you get used to hearing the other, other white meat one a bit....
As I usually play an orc, I heartily endorse love for the metatype and I have even had my orc at a party we were crashing drop that as a line to a snooty elf princess once in front of her daisyeating boyfriend.
Ended up taking both home after the run.
How would a mundane counter magic, apart from APDS rounds? Like an infiltrater who needs to sneak past Astral watchdogs, or maximize your resistance to mental manipulations? Is there a way for a mundane to hamper someone's ability to use magic, like maybe a manatech grenade that adds background count or something?
You can check out some neat manatech from 4th ed in Arsenal pgs 64-67,includign the following:
It won't stop you from being spotted full stop, but can obscure the playing field a bit.
QUOTE
Esprit “Petite Brume” Grenade: In early 2069, the druids of
Brittany and French weapons manufacturer Esprit Industries made
a breakthrough in manatech: a smoke grenade that impedes astral
perception. The puck-shaped grenade dispenses a cloud of fl uorescing
astral bacteria strain II-Beta (FAB-IIb) within a fine suspension of water
droplets, forming a mist that obscures physical and astral perception.
Th e “Petite Brume” Grenade releases a cloud of light mist
over an area with a diameter of 10 meters. The mist obscures vision,
applying visibility modifiers for light mist to relevant tests.
FAB-IIb does not form an astral barrier; it prevents astral movement
through the mist faster than 100 meters per Combat Turn
and increases the threshold for Assensing Tests by 2 when looking
through the mist. It lasts for approximately 4 Combat Turns (less
in windy areas, longer in confined areas at the gamemaster’s discretion).
Use the rules for Grenades, p.145, SR4.
Brittany and French weapons manufacturer Esprit Industries made
a breakthrough in manatech: a smoke grenade that impedes astral
perception. The puck-shaped grenade dispenses a cloud of fl uorescing
astral bacteria strain II-Beta (FAB-IIb) within a fine suspension of water
droplets, forming a mist that obscures physical and astral perception.
Th e “Petite Brume” Grenade releases a cloud of light mist
over an area with a diameter of 10 meters. The mist obscures vision,
applying visibility modifiers for light mist to relevant tests.
FAB-IIb does not form an astral barrier; it prevents astral movement
through the mist faster than 100 meters per Combat Turn
and increases the threshold for Assensing Tests by 2 when looking
through the mist. It lasts for approximately 4 Combat Turns (less
in windy areas, longer in confined areas at the gamemaster’s discretion).
Use the rules for Grenades, p.145, SR4.
It won't stop you from being spotted full stop, but can obscure the playing field a bit.
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 3 2015, 06:38 PM)
Was that sarcasm?
I can't recall either being used in a serious way, only as a joke. But back then Lasers were pretty much mythical and Thor shots were cows falling from the sky.
I can't recall either being used in a serious way, only as a joke. But back then Lasers were pretty much mythical and Thor shots were cows falling from the sky.
No, it wasn't. You can start the game with a laser rifle, and I've long since learned never to underestimate the resourcefulness of players. If they want something enough, they'll find a way to have it.
It seeems that playing a mundane leaves a fairly large hole in your defenses, being unable to counterspell. What's the best way to go about defending from save-or-die spells like Turn to Goo or mental manipulations if you don't have a caster in the party?
With mundanes only? I guess Astral Hazing or the more subtle magic resistance quality. Although if you don't have defenses against something, your fixer (and GM) probably shouldn't be putting you up against those kinds of challenges much. Sure, it'll still happen once in a while, but that's why you geek the mage first.
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Nov 4 2015, 04:59 AM)
You can check out some neat manatech from 4th ed in Arsenal pgs 64-67,includign the following:
It won't stop you from being spotted full stop, but can obscure the playing field a bit.
It won't stop you from being spotted full stop, but can obscure the playing field a bit.
For funsies, replace the FAB II with FAB III
QUOTE (2XS @ Nov 4 2015, 04:43 AM)
How would a mundane counter magic, apart from APDS rounds? Like an infiltrater who needs to sneak past Astral watchdogs, or maximize your resistance to mental manipulations? Is there a way for a mundane to hamper someone's ability to use magic, like maybe a manatech grenade that adds background count or something?
I was going to answer, but don't feel like arguing.
Think perception tests, think imitating those ignored by astral watchdogs. Think what Attribute is targeted and quit making it a dump stat.
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 5 2015, 12:13 AM)
Think perception tests, think imitating those ignored by astral watchdogs. Think what Attribute is targeted and quit making it a dump stat.
^^^ This.... SO. Much. This...
The absolute most powerful character I've ever seen in SR in terms of survivability and stopping power is a stealth specialist sniper. It's SR's version of Skyrim's stealth archer, complete with the same qualities to make the game trivial.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 5 2015, 10:15 AM)
The absolute most powerful character I've ever seen in SR in terms of survivability and stopping power is a stealth specialist sniper. It's SR's version of Skyrim's stealth archer, complete with the same qualities to make the game trivial.
Bullets... The great Equalizer...
Yup, I had to..
Perhaps I should've been more specific.
So I'm putting stuff into Willpower, taking the Magic Resistance quality, and have a low Essence; is there anything else I might be missing?
I prefer to hide-in-shadows kind of sneak rather than "bluff" sneak, though doing so when you can be spotted sneaking by an invisible watch dog on another plane of existence makes it problematic. I think there's a drug that would let me astrally perceive so I could at least tell which way the magical beasty was looking, though I can't quite remember if you gain astral perception or if it caused you to astrally project.
Anyone have something constructive they'd like to add? Find some kind of magical Kryptonite that gave their (non-cyber-zombie) a significant edge when battling magic users?
So I'm putting stuff into Willpower, taking the Magic Resistance quality, and have a low Essence; is there anything else I might be missing?
I prefer to hide-in-shadows kind of sneak rather than "bluff" sneak, though doing so when you can be spotted sneaking by an invisible watch dog on another plane of existence makes it problematic. I think there's a drug that would let me astrally perceive so I could at least tell which way the magical beasty was looking, though I can't quite remember if you gain astral perception or if it caused you to astrally project.
Anyone have something constructive they'd like to add? Find some kind of magical Kryptonite that gave their (non-cyber-zombie) a significant edge when battling magic users?
I wasn't being a condescending douchebag, but trying to point you toward concepts from the edition I know best that you apparently are not playing, which I am not sure still apply.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
Deepweed forces an awakened to astrally perceive, Shade works on mundanes, but forces even a mundane to astrally project.
You as a mundane suddenly projecting might be a really bad idea as it just opens you up to even more magic based attacks while your body back on the physical suddenly goes limp.
One on One with a mage you will face some difficulties, but that doesn't mean you can't win.
First thing is cheat.
Direct LOS at close to medium range between you and the mage is bad for you, unless you totally outclass them in the initiative department via souped up reflexes, because if the mage can see you he can blast/control/other you in a number of ways.
Use your smartgun link and guncam to shoot around corners.
Yes he can still drop an AOE type spell, but try to pick your terrain to limit these options.
Sitting next to something the mage won't want to wreck with an AOE will force them to more targeted options.
Again Smoke grenades can still help to some degree as can the fab based ones mentioned above.
There are a number of discussion threads about moving in stealth against astral observations, it may pay to look through some of them.
Snipe from a distance when possible, unless he has some binoculars handy he probably wont see you from a quarter klick out.
This may run into probs with the GM since he wont want the whole game devolving into SniperRun, but argue for its judicious usage given special circumstances and don't abuse it.
Use numbers to your advantage. There are a limited number of mages and other things magical in the world, use superior numbers to overwhelm/overload/distract them.
It may mean hiring street ganger muscle to storm the far fence thus drawing security's attention while you sneak in the side entrance or even just walk in the front door via a disguise. Or have a miniswarm of small drones harass the spirit while you go by.
Give the magical elements more than they can handle. Just be sure to have any forces keep well spread out so a single AOE spell or ability does not negate them in one blow.
Technology doesn't have drain, use that fact. They have fireballs, you have grenades. They have mind control, you have a plethora of drugs that can mess someone up.
A buddy with a chemistry degree, some dmso and some grenade making skills can give you some fun toys to add to your arsenal and you probably won't pass out from chucking just a few unless your aim is reaaalllly bad.
Drones are good but can be expensive. While they can not be directly mind controlled or manabombed, physical spells will chew them up but they are replacable whereas you are not.
Again, numbers play a part here.. keep harassing the mages with mooks/devices so they pile up the drain and can be easy pickings by the time you decide to step in to finish them.
Spirits will be a bit more work since drain is not an issue for them, but there are tons of energy based toys like tasers/S&S/lasers and such that can help disrupt a spirit just fine.
Again a pile of mooks/drones armed with these can disrupt low to moderate force entities or at least keep the bigger ones occupied while you go about your business.
You might complain about how using mooks/devices is not your style, but remember you against a spirit is the same as a lone soldier against a tank, it's two totally different categories of abilities clashing.
You have to be prepared to adapt your tactics accordingly.
There is no one 'magic bullet' (except for the one through the back of a mage's head) that can cure all your magical woes, otherwise everyone would be using it already.
You as a mundane suddenly projecting might be a really bad idea as it just opens you up to even more magic based attacks while your body back on the physical suddenly goes limp.
One on One with a mage you will face some difficulties, but that doesn't mean you can't win.
First thing is cheat.
Direct LOS at close to medium range between you and the mage is bad for you, unless you totally outclass them in the initiative department via souped up reflexes, because if the mage can see you he can blast/control/other you in a number of ways.
Use your smartgun link and guncam to shoot around corners.
Yes he can still drop an AOE type spell, but try to pick your terrain to limit these options.
Sitting next to something the mage won't want to wreck with an AOE will force them to more targeted options.
Again Smoke grenades can still help to some degree as can the fab based ones mentioned above.
There are a number of discussion threads about moving in stealth against astral observations, it may pay to look through some of them.
Snipe from a distance when possible, unless he has some binoculars handy he probably wont see you from a quarter klick out.
This may run into probs with the GM since he wont want the whole game devolving into SniperRun, but argue for its judicious usage given special circumstances and don't abuse it.
Use numbers to your advantage. There are a limited number of mages and other things magical in the world, use superior numbers to overwhelm/overload/distract them.
It may mean hiring street ganger muscle to storm the far fence thus drawing security's attention while you sneak in the side entrance or even just walk in the front door via a disguise. Or have a miniswarm of small drones harass the spirit while you go by.
Give the magical elements more than they can handle. Just be sure to have any forces keep well spread out so a single AOE spell or ability does not negate them in one blow.
Technology doesn't have drain, use that fact. They have fireballs, you have grenades. They have mind control, you have a plethora of drugs that can mess someone up.
A buddy with a chemistry degree, some dmso and some grenade making skills can give you some fun toys to add to your arsenal and you probably won't pass out from chucking just a few unless your aim is reaaalllly bad.
Drones are good but can be expensive. While they can not be directly mind controlled or manabombed, physical spells will chew them up but they are replacable whereas you are not.
Again, numbers play a part here.. keep harassing the mages with mooks/devices so they pile up the drain and can be easy pickings by the time you decide to step in to finish them.
Spirits will be a bit more work since drain is not an issue for them, but there are tons of energy based toys like tasers/S&S/lasers and such that can help disrupt a spirit just fine.
Again a pile of mooks/drones armed with these can disrupt low to moderate force entities or at least keep the bigger ones occupied while you go about your business.
You might complain about how using mooks/devices is not your style, but remember you against a spirit is the same as a lone soldier against a tank, it's two totally different categories of abilities clashing.
You have to be prepared to adapt your tactics accordingly.
There is no one 'magic bullet' (except for the one through the back of a mage's head) that can cure all your magical woes, otherwise everyone would be using it already.
QUOTE (2XS @ Nov 6 2015, 12:38 AM)
Perhaps I should've been more specific.
So I'm putting stuff into Willpower, taking the Magic Resistance quality, and have a low Essence; is there anything else I might be missing?
I prefer to hide-in-shadows kind of sneak rather than "bluff" sneak, though doing so when you can be spotted sneaking by an invisible watch dog on another plane of existence makes it problematic. I think there's a drug that would let me astrally perceive so I could at least tell which way the magical beasty was looking, though I can't quite remember if you gain astral perception or if it caused you to astrally project.
Anyone have something constructive they'd like to add? Find some kind of magical Kryptonite that gave their (non-cyber-zombie) a significant edge when battling magic users?
So I'm putting stuff into Willpower, taking the Magic Resistance quality, and have a low Essence; is there anything else I might be missing?
I prefer to hide-in-shadows kind of sneak rather than "bluff" sneak, though doing so when you can be spotted sneaking by an invisible watch dog on another plane of existence makes it problematic. I think there's a drug that would let me astrally perceive so I could at least tell which way the magical beasty was looking, though I can't quite remember if you gain astral perception or if it caused you to astrally project.
Anyone have something constructive they'd like to add? Find some kind of magical Kryptonite that gave their (non-cyber-zombie) a significant edge when battling magic users?
Murky Link, maybe...
You could take arcane arrester instead of Magic resistance though it is a Metagenic quality.
EDIT: Corrected the post about arcane arrester.
Good stuff. While I might prefer to avoid using distractions (I've been on a real "Batman" kick lately) I think they'd be consistent with the character in certain situations. I plan on using groups of small, chameleon coated drones for situational awareness and battle-tac bonuses, but detecting/avoiding astral observers is throwing me for a loop.
I'll try searching, here and in Google.
I'll try searching, here and in Google.
Part of your dilemma is anything that could let you detect astral entities either gives you away (say using a Lucifer lantern/using MADs to perceive/project) or gives you warning far too late (the astral mosses that glow when an astral entity passes very close)
Tisoz had very good advice in imitating those the astral watchdogs ignore.
Remember the astral entity does not have an inate sense of your intentions, it can not tell you are there to rob the place.
To them you are just another murky grey shadow among other shadows going through the place.
Astral surveillance is mostly there to detect and deal with magical threats, as a mundane you are sort of off their radar unless they have specific orders otherwise.
Physical security is generally left to physical forces because it's cheaper and easier to use a couple of normal guards and slew of cameras than keep loads of mages on call. Your magical security forces will usually be 1-2 mages and even then they are again more about maintaining a watch for magical stuff.
So yeah, if there is a huge fire elemental guarding a hallway that is there to stop everyone going through, then that is a problem, but how often are you really going to see that when a couple of security checkpoint can do the same job easier?
Having said spirit playing doorman also means that no one else is getting through unless they have been given a list of exceptions.
So maybe they do not bother anyone wearing a particular item/badge/uniform because again they are not going to 'know' who is actually working for the company or not in most circumstances.
Find out what they allow through and use that to gain entry, because hey if the spirit is told not to mess with anyone wearing the ruby lined badge they won't mess with you so long as you have one, even if you totally do not look like you belong their otherwise.
Something a live guard probably would raise a question with if your street troll waved the ruby badge at him after hours without a damn good story to back it up.
If it is one of those situations where the spirit is set to not let anyone through full stop, ie the mage set them to guard the hall and let none pass thru at all until daybreak , then break out the tasers & lasers and serve it up with a little shake 'n bake or wait for shift change with the first rays of the morning sun.
Tisoz had very good advice in imitating those the astral watchdogs ignore.
Remember the astral entity does not have an inate sense of your intentions, it can not tell you are there to rob the place.
To them you are just another murky grey shadow among other shadows going through the place.
Astral surveillance is mostly there to detect and deal with magical threats, as a mundane you are sort of off their radar unless they have specific orders otherwise.
Physical security is generally left to physical forces because it's cheaper and easier to use a couple of normal guards and slew of cameras than keep loads of mages on call. Your magical security forces will usually be 1-2 mages and even then they are again more about maintaining a watch for magical stuff.
So yeah, if there is a huge fire elemental guarding a hallway that is there to stop everyone going through, then that is a problem, but how often are you really going to see that when a couple of security checkpoint can do the same job easier?
Having said spirit playing doorman also means that no one else is getting through unless they have been given a list of exceptions.
So maybe they do not bother anyone wearing a particular item/badge/uniform because again they are not going to 'know' who is actually working for the company or not in most circumstances.
Find out what they allow through and use that to gain entry, because hey if the spirit is told not to mess with anyone wearing the ruby lined badge they won't mess with you so long as you have one, even if you totally do not look like you belong their otherwise.
Something a live guard probably would raise a question with if your street troll waved the ruby badge at him after hours without a damn good story to back it up.
If it is one of those situations where the spirit is set to not let anyone through full stop, ie the mage set them to guard the hall and let none pass thru at all until daybreak , then break out the tasers & lasers and serve it up with a little shake 'n bake or wait for shift change with the first rays of the morning sun.
You know I was thinking, if you can force the spirit to physically manifest and the have a dragonfly with a one or two shot aerosol dispenser for FAB III. Use the gangers to manifest and then squirt. The spirit is going to either disperse or be let go so as to save itself. Sure, it's expensive, but as your party is non-mages (or if there is a mage in the group he does NOT crash at the rigger's place), it won't affect you.
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