Table of Contents

(Revised) Firewall Rule

New Matrix Action: Breech Defenses (2nd Draft)

New Hacking Program: Battering Ram

New Matrix Action: Monitor Defenses (3rd Draft)

New Matrix Action: Prevent Breech (2nd Draft)

(Revised) Matrix Perception (2nd Draft)

Runs against a Host




This thread is to hash out an idea I have to “fix” 5e’s Matrix rules.

My intention is not to completely rewrite the rules, although I admit that might be necessary.

I am starting this thread because designing in a vacuum is a very bad idea *cough* CGL *cough*. And I am not likely to get a playtest together to try them out.

If you are going to post suggestions, I request that you keep it to one suggestion per post so that as these rules become more fleshed out I can edit this post with a table of contents of sorts linking to the rules alterations.

Firewall is the Threshold for all Matrix Actions Against a Device / Host

I am aware this causes issues with hosts and high Firewall ratings. See next two posts.

No longer is an owners stats involved in Matrix Defense.

This makes Firewall more meaningful. The MCT Blue Defender now really means you get something for a Data Processing of 1.

Return to the Table of Contents

New Matrix Action: Breech Defenses (2nd Draft)

Complex Action
Cybercombat + Intuition [Sleeze OR Attack] vs. Firewall

This is an exception to Firewall = Threshold rule

With persistence, luck, and sheer audacity, a hacker can temporarily reduce a targets Firewall.

Success reduces the targets Firewall, for the action user only, by 1 for (net hits) Combat Turns. If the Firewall was already reduced by the action user, the duration equals the current net hits if greater than existing duration, or the existing duration + one Combat Turn if current net hits is less.

Return to the Table of Contents

New Hacking Program: Battering Ram

Increases the Firewall reduction of a successful Breech Defenses action by 1 (2 total).

Return to the Table of Contents

Titan, you said that the stats of the Firewall are not affected by the stats of the user. What about the Nixdorf Sekretär that has a built in rating 3 Agent? Does that Agent stats get added in to boost the firewall?

Hmm... Good question. This is a prime example of the purpose of this thread. I would never have thought of that.

I'll have to double check the errata. I know there was something about the Sekretar no longer having a full blown Agent program. I'll look into it and adjust as necessary.

EDITed to add: It is on page 38 of the Shadowrun Missions 1.2 FAQ. The change is the Agent only has the Computer skill. I think I have an idea of how to include agents into the mix.

New Matrix Action: Monitor Defenses (3rd Draft)

Interrupt Action
Initiative -10

Through careful monitoring and troubleshooting you can detect, and perhaps thwart, breeches.

This action allows you (or an Agent program) to add your Intuition (Agent Rating) to the monitored devices Firewall to resist Breech Defenses actions for the Combat Turn.

If any hits are rolled on the defensive test, the Breech attempt is detected, regardless if it succeeds.

Return to the Table of Contents

New Matrix Action: Prevent Breech (2nd Draft)

Complex Action
Cybercombat + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Attackers Cybercombat + Intuition

Reduce the attackers Breech net hits by the net hits of this roll.

Return to the Table of Contents

Well an enterprising hardware geek could hardwire a program carrier into a commlink and put in an Agent. Hell put a Virtual Machine in the Program carrier. The program carrier allows you "run a program permanently". So this your commlink now can run one cyber program. Virtual Machine allows you to run an additional two programs. Those two programs can be Agent and Encryption. This version of Agent can be a a full fledged agent and not a crippled one running on the Sekretar.

The funny thing about this... it is ALL completely legal. The program carrier carries a Availability of 2, the electronic packs needed to install it on your commlink, and Encryption are Availability "-". Finally, the Agent is Availability "3 * Rating" so you can get up Rating 4 at character creation.

Later on in game you can get an Attack Dongle... So when a Hacker does try to wreck your drek, your commlink is hammering him back.

That remains to be seen.

In the errata discussions, it is talked about that devices other the decks (and RCCs in limited form) can't run cyberprograms - even on program carriers.

Nothing even remotely official yet. Just talk. We will have to see if this ends up being legal or not.

EDITed to add: Here is a SR5 author declaring s/he doesn't allow Virtual Machine in a Program Carrier (in anything other than a Deck) on their table and guesses it shouldn't be allowed.

That's him being a penis. I mean seriously, how does being able to run two programs on a Commlink equate to being broken?

Also he is just one person, and NOT the Voice Of God when it comes to Shadowrun. Hell, that's just HIS house rule and NOT official Errata for Data Trails.

I think he's just butthurt that someone found a way to wreck his precious Deckers and make them irrelevant in a combat situation.

** EDIT ** As was brought up on the thread you linked, running a Virtual Machine makes the commlink more liable to being bricked. That is enough of a downside in this edition.

So the cell phones of 6 decades from now are less powerful than my current cell phone?

Sorry I was meaning to say running two cyber programs. The commlink can run half it's rating (round up) in Commlink programs... AKA the worthless ones.

This is going outside the scope of this thread.... But, pfffttt. It's "my" thread and I'll allow it.

**Before I go any further, I want to try and make it clear that I do NOT necessarily agree with the rulings, I'm simply relaying them.

First off, with the possible exception of 4e, Shadowrun has always had a hard time keeping up with technology. (Decks in 3e were essentially Commodore 64s that had to have a hardline connection to the Matrix to work) I don't blame the writers here. Computer tech is the quintessential "moving target." How many people would have guessed 'fridges and thermostats would need an internet connection to work fully a decade ago?



No**. The (semi) official explanation is that commlink apps are computationally intensive programs that are more advanced than PC programs are today. i.e.: The AR and VR games are more intensive than the MMOs and PC games today. So you can run Device Rating / 2 "PC+" games at one time on your commlink.



Easy there, tiger. I wasn't presenting that as a "this is how it has to be" argument. I was using it as an example to illustrate my point that commlinks may get neutered in the future. That "even the writers don't want it to work," so don't be surprised if it is errata'd away. On the one hand, I get were they are coming from**... I mean they made cyberdecks so craptacular, they have to reduce the usefulness of commlinks to pull them away from being a better (in terms of cost and availability) hacking device than a cyberdeck.
An argument could be made that they should just fix cyberdecks, but these are the same people who ruled that cyber programs couldn't be copied - not because "we are trying to maintain a semblance of balance among the archetypes," but because "you (player characters) aren't able to defeat the copy protection." (I could rant about the dumbness of that statement for at least a day...) This is also the group of people that created a revised vehicle speed chart "in" Rigger 5.0 that never made it into the book - and they still haven't even released an Alpha version of an errata for players to download. You have to go digging through the forums to find a post by the author of said chart to even get a half assed version of it. Not to mention how I could rant about how they should have spent more time fixing the problems of the Core vehicle speed chart rather than create a whole new system to replace it... (In the authors defense, s/he claims they weren't allowed to fix the core material.)

Well... That was longer than I intended.... Anyway, the take away here is: "If you want to keep your sanity, don't try to apply any logic to the rules." It'll just end up hurting you in the end.

Updated some of my proposed rules.

My mind is telling me that I am missing something... But I am not seeing it. Can anyone tell me what holes are in my proposals?

My question about this is why would this affect the PC's initiative if he has an Agent running on his commlink? If he has no Agent: VERY fair, hell, with the speed of cyber combat, if you're not spending all your action, it's a fragging discount! If you've got an Agent it should be all that it's doing until it detects a breach, and then "It's Hammer Time!"



Except the Fridge and Thermostats don't need a 'Net connection to fully work. They need that connection so you can connect to them remotely. If your ISP went down you'd still be able to connect to them if you were on the LAN, like I can do with my Philips lights.




Except the AR/VR games are NOT cyber programs. They're commlink apps and NOT cyber programs. A better analogy would be commlink apps are android games and cyber programs are Adobe Acrobat, full on Photoshop, or Maya (what Hollyweird is using for Special Affects). VERY CPU/GPU intensive programs.



If they want to make commlinks even more worthless than they are now, then by all means let them. If I ever play 5th edition, then I'll ask the GM to allow me to run my commlink with Virtual Machine and two cyber programs. It is NOT game breaking. Hell for a 'Run my mage would just TURN OFF his commlink's wireless. A micro transceiver would work just fine for comms. If they allowed it then there would be a reason for 'Runners to take the risk of using wireless.




Actually, the pricing of cyberprograms is so damn cheap, that these programs ARE the copy protection broken programs and that "price" is what it costs to maintain them so that they actually continue to work. I mean, come on, 250 for a cyber combat program? That's cheaper than what a full on COMMON program use to be in 4th edition.

Remember to buy Black Hammer (in 4th edition) at Rating 6 use to cost 6000 for a full on version. A Hacked version "only" set you back 600 , AND you had to spend time/money to maintain it! Now though, programs don't have a rating, they just have a bonus/Special Effect to your Attack/Defense rating. For example: Biofeedback is the new Black Hammer. It's cheaper, AND you don't have to maintain it. It's just assumed that you've got a hacker connection that you paid to get a log in to download the latest version of your programs.

Agents have their own Initiative. Kind of like drones operating autonomously. Data Processing + Rating + Dice based on the mode the device is running. (2D6 if AR, 3D6 if the owner is running it Cold Sim, 4D6 for owner running it Hot.)
It is the only way they could act without anyone operating the device.



We, the players, were instructed to look at it as any Matrix actions taken use the equivalent of Android apps. Matrix Search? Chrome / Firefox / Your favorite browser app. Edit File? The equivalent of Word / LibreOffice / OpenOffice or Picasa / Gimp, etc..
Commlink apps are more advanced versions of PC / Mac programs we run now.
Cyberprograms are so advanced and computationally intensive that players can't even fathom it.

Remember, I'm not saying this is proper, or logical. It is just what we are "supposed" to think about SR5 programs.

Except you can't run Edit on a SR5 commlink. That's a cyber program.

Except who said anything about running the Edit cyberprogram?

Hmm?

You need to stop trying to pick a fight so hard, and take that time to instead think about what is posted.

I said using the Edit File Matrix Action which you damn well can do on a commlink.

Whoa dude! Calm down. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just replying to your posts. Hell, it seems I'm the only who is doing so.

I just made a mistake.

(Revised) Matrix Perception: (2nd Draft)

Matrix Perception only works on Icons within 100m of the observing Persona, OR on the same Grid / Host outside of 100m with a -2 Dice Pool modifier. The only exception to this is Icons running Silent outside of 100m can't be detected by Matrix Perception, even if they are on the same Grid / Host

There are no longer any automatic results. However, should the observer not be under any stress they can buy hit(s) as normal.

To find an Icon that is outside 100m and on another Grid / Host (or on the same Grid / Host without taking a -2 Dice Pool modifier) requires a Matrix Search action. An Icon running Silent in this case is considered Hidden/Actively Erased for this test.

Return to the Table of Contents

Titan,

I would also put something in Matrix Perception that makes Wrapper actually effective.

** Rough Proposed amendment to Matrix Perception **

Wrapper programs due to their nature of overwriting Matrix Iconography, are only seen through with an opposed test of Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Logic + Sleaze. If the Persona doing the perceiving gets one net hit they realize something is wrong and try again. If they get 2+ net hits they blow through the Wrapper program and see what the icon really is.

--------------------------

EDIT

Is there a Perceive in Detail in SR5? I did a quick word search in the PDF, but I turned up nothing.

Observe in Detail: pg 165 Core book, 2nd Printing.




As for Wrapper, I have an issue with it. It isn't the concept, I get it. It is like Matrix Concealment. Trying to hide Icons on your Persona, rather than items on your person.

My problem is how it interacts with the Matrix as it was designed. Let me explain.

First, unlike real world (in-game, that is) perception, you simply can not gain any information the Matrix doesn't already have. In order for you to be able to see through that Dodge Charger Icon to see it is really a fully armed Panzer Tank - means the Matrix already knew that ahead of time, since any info you get is transmitted to your system via the Matrix.

Second, if Wrapper really does override Matrix Protocols in order to not call out deadly weapons like normal, that is a GOD level violation, and should accrue Overwatch Score.

So it is a muddy area for me. For it to work, either Wrapper can not be seen through by others (like spoofing the MAC address of your computer) which is too overpowered, or it can be seen through - and that means writing exceptions that have to be observed and such.

I'll have to think on it - but it will take a while.

OK, so I was silly and got the wrong search terms. Thanks for the heads up.



Maybe to blow through a Wrapper program, you have to do a Observe in Detail check and if you get one net hit (with the test I detailed above), then you blow through it.

My justification for this, If you see a "normal person", acting normally, walking along the street and when you do a Matrix perception test, you see he has a commlink and a taser... all perfectly legal, so you're not going to give him a second glance.

Later on you see another "normal person" walking along, but something about him is tripping your "Oh drek!" sense, and you scan his Matrix icons and only see a commlink, some cyberware (like eyes, ears, etc... all perfectly legal), and a taser. You decide to do a more in-depth check (because you're on alert) and get the net hit needed to blow through the Wrapper program for his taser and see it's an Ingram Smartgun. You can then start looking at the rest of the icons that say they're perfectly legal...

A 'Runner would be smart enough to either rip out the wireless in his gear all together, or have it turned off while he's walking about in "normal" life. A Gang Banger wouldn't be as intelligent.

------------------------------------

EDIT

Titan, I am wondering if you're going to come up with rules for custom cyberdecks and/or commlinks.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you talking form factors, like what Data Trails tried to do? Or are you talking full on "grab all the components, and bash together your own cyberdeck" that doesn't have to conform to the off the shelf decks?

If the later, that is a dangerous road for me to go down. I really can't stand the SR5 Build and Repair rules - or lack thereof. And I know just enough about "engineering" (in the game rules sense) to be able to hack together a reasonably accurate rules system >> that will piss everyone else off <<. To some, it won't be harsh enough. To others, it will be too harsh. (("What do you mean it takes my character months / years to build a house all by their self?" Because it does, ask me how I know.))
For example, off the top of my head, I would say to build a cyberdeck (or any electronic device, for that matter) would require an Edge test at the moment of assembly with a Threshold of the Device Rating of the device. Why Edge? Because it represents your Luck at not getting a component that is DOA. Now, this roll can be mitigated by taking the time to bench test every component. It would require a Hardware Shop (with a Facility granting bonuses of some sort) and extended tests per component (off hand, I would say an extended test per Device Rating) to make sure each component works right...
And then... "more." Something I would have to spend more time fleshing out.

Is that something you really want to see?




Now, back to Wrapper.

I must not be explaining it well... It isn't the game mechanics that I have an issue with. Your suggestions work fine. Alternatively, I could eventually come up with my own that "feel" better to me (regardless if yours are better or not)... But it doesn't change the issue I have with Wrapper. And that is for it to work anything like it is written now, "breaks" the logic of the game world.

See the Matrix takes a piss on the whole concept of Matrix Concealability. The SOP (Standard Operating Proceedure) is to take an item classified as "deadly weapon" and shift it outside your PAN so that it can always be identified quickly. Now we can debate what a deadly weapon is, but that is outside the scope of this discussion. The Matrix does this regardless of Legality. Let us say that a character (player, or otherwise) is carrying a Ares Predator V with wireless ON. It doesn't mater if they are completely SINless, have a fake SIN with proper fake licenses, or a real life, proper, citizen with a real SIN, real legitimate licenses to Carry and even Concealed Carry the Ares Predator. The Matrix still says "Hey EVERYBODY! This person is carrying an Ares Predator V!!!!" This can be mitigated by switching the weapon to run Silent, but then someone "spending" 1 hit on a Matrix Perception knows there are Icons running Silent in the area. It the Ares Predator is the only one, it is fairly vulnerable to being spotted, and then it is back to the Matrix shouting "Ares Predator here!!" for any who spot it.

You can take issue with that if you want. I won't blame you. To me it fits exactly into my view of how intrinsically fucked up the game world of 2070s is. Are you in line at your favorite Stuffer Shack with a hottie in line in front of you? Want their Commcode? Don't bother chatting them up, just "spend" one hit on a Matrix Perception test, and (as long as they aren't running Silent) bam! You got it. You can even "spend" a second hit to get the Grid they are on to help you judge just how out of your league they are (if they are on a Global Grid, gotta bring your "A game"). If they are running Silent, you will need to spot their Persona first, but if you do, then they are essentially no longer running Silent for you.
Want their address? That could happen - GM approval required for this one - because a SIN is required, by law, to be broadcast at all times. Address is part of the SIN. Now, it is debatable if the address is broadcast at all times... But I can totally see it happening.

To bring it back to Wrapper: The only item(s) it really needs to be used on are deadly weapons. It you want your cybereyes to look like a cyber-hat, for example, you can just use a Change Icon action to do that. There is something said about the Matrix eventually fixing Icons to fit its' designed structure, but there isn't anything detailed about it. I imagine it works something like Overwatch Score. (3d6 OS-equivalent every 15 minutes, Matrix gets tired of your impertinence at 40) Not that there will be Convergence, but eventually the Matrix turns your cybereyes Icon back to what it is supposed to look like.
Wrapper, on an item that isn't a deadly weapon, would just be a permanent version of Change Icon, in that it is permanent as long as Wrapper is running.

The problem comes about when someone tries to run Wrapper on a deadly weapon. The moment you use it to make the Matrix ignore the fact that your deadly weapon is deadly, you are violating Matrix Protocols on the level of GOD attention. If a successful Hack on the Fly action - that doesn't alert anyone else that it was performed - can accrue OS, then making a deadly weapon not appear as deadly should definitely do so as well.
That assumes, of course, that others can penetrate the Wrapper effect. If anyone else can see through the Wrapper effect, that requires the Matrix to know that its' protocols are overriden. If Wrapper can fool the Matrix enough to ignore the fact that its' protocols are overriden, then it can't been seen through by anyone else.

That is my issue.

Indeed... Well said, Titan...

Though I do not have a lot of issues (there are a few) with the Matrix itself, Wrapper is definitely weird, when it comes to its usage. In all my years of playing SR5, I have never used it. It is so much easier to just not have wireless active/use a throwback device. At that point, you have no need of it at all.

As for Customization/creation rules for Cyberdecks... I do miss such things, on occasion. But in the grand scheme of things, I think they are more trouble than they are worth.

The only reason I brought it up is because cyberdecks are so damn expensive and the really good ones are really hard to get. I can see a decker and or rigger making their own decks so they can can keep the price to something they can afford and to not have a big honking neon sign saying "Hey guys! I have an illegal cyberdeck here! It's serial number/MAC address is..."

Pphhheeeeewwwwww.... That is a whole 'nother can of worms.

The price of cyberdecks is an attempt at game balance (between archetypes). Like I said in the Power Points thread CGL did a shit job of it... But there it is.
That is also the reason they should have given for the SR5 ruling of "you cannot copy / clone programs," rather then the crap "you can't break the copy protection."
Add to that that I would have to keep the cost to make close to the price of a comparable deck in the book, or else we have a situation that makes it possible for a character to make more than a single run (probably much more) per each item made when they sell it. Potentially throwing the whole economy out of wack.
Just as a bad analogy to compare it to: Imagine what would happen if, given several game hours, the Street Sammy could come out of the back room with 2 Barret Model 122's (pg 40 Run & Gun) when they went in with only 1? Some might be more comfortable with ammo, so how about if same Sammy could turn 10 rounds of APDS into 1000 with just a couple of hours of game time?

That is a tightrope I don't feel like walking any time soon...

Sorry to bring that up, but the price point of decks bugs the drek out of me.



Understood.

With that said, how about making commlinks being able to accept (Device rating / 2; round down) number of modifications. The first mod follows the rules in Data Trails, the second one requires 6 packs worth of parts and the third one requires 12 packs worth of parts. Add on to this the ability to add in a second commlink dongle.

Also I would allow a hacker to make a "supersized" program carrier that could carry up to three programs. This would cost 12 packs worth of parts and would take a week's worth of time.


Where I'm going with this is this: The above would allow a down on his luck hacker (or one who wants a bit more "stealth")** to mod a commlink with two commlink dongles (Attack and Stealth), and the ability to run 3 cyberdeck programs. He would have to find (or most likely steal the respective dongles), but he could make himself a ghetto deck.



** == By "stealth" I mean the ability to have the legality of a commlink, but with the capabilities of a mid range deck (depends on the dongles you manage to buy or steal). The Attack and Stealth dongles can be turned off so when Lone Star scans you he only sees the commlink and not a deck.

I get where you are coming from, and understand your points. I tend to share them.

Here is the problem though: CGL has already learned they made Commlinks "too good" when compared to Cyberdecks, and you are trying to make them better.

Remember, I get where you are coming from.

But your suggestion puts a "ghetto deck" just about at the level of a max starting deckers deck (without Restricted Gear quality).

I don't feel like doing the math right now, but I suspect it will be comparable in price.

This is primarily because you are missing one point. Namely "a Cyberdeck doesn't need Attack and Sleaze." Sure, it is nice to have... But a well built Decker should be "geared up," so to speak, for one or the other.

And if it happens to be Sleaze, you can get an acceptable "ghetto deck" for 401 although, admittedly through pretty cheesy rules. (2 parts packs to add Persona capability to a Stealth Tag to give you a 0 / 3 / 3 / 3 device.) You can't run cyberprograms on it, but most of them simply add 2 dice to one action anyway.

Since the attributes are only limits in most cases (Firewall is an exception), that device should do pretty well. (Especially when you consider the potential cheese-factor of a Rigger Jumped Into the device raising the limits by the Control Rig rating - to effectively make the device 2 / 5 / 5 / 5 with a Control Rig of 2 - with the Firewall only being 3 for any rolls.**)

** I expect this to get Errata'd at some point.

Agreed... I would prefer that the cost of Cyberdecks be cut down to just 10-20% of listed price, but that is just me.

Right now as the rules as written, you can get a 0/6/6/6 or a 6/0/6/6 device rating 6 (which is the same as a Fairlight Excalibur) with the ability to run at least one cyber program (two if you put virtual machine in the program carrier) at character creation and NOT need Restricted Gear. Best point... that "beast" will only cost you 113,980 . That's only 3730 more expensive than a Azteca 200 and with the dongle turned off (or not inserted into the commlink) then the device is 100% legal!

I see you are familiar with one of the reasons (perhaps the primary reason) the authors of Shadowrun 5e are pulling back the usefulness of Commlinks, and why if program carriers will still be installable on Commlinks, Virtual Machine will not be.

And you somehow think Commlinks should be better in SR5? Seriously?

If the developers wanted cyberdecks to be useful, then they should have made them have some unique feature that commlinks don't have. They should have just not allowed the Attack and Stealth dongles. With those added in, they drekked their own bed. Now they have to sleep in the slimy, stinking mess.

As for Program Carriers... you said it yourself, a hacker doesn't NEED cyberprograms. They're just useful buffs. If Program Carrier is still allowed they can still have the one program that will make all the difference.

As for Virtual Machine: I don't see how they can disallow it. If they allow program carriers to be installed on a commlink (or any device really) and Virtual Machine is a cyberdeck program (and a legal one at that). How would someone go about putting the two programs into the Virtual Machine... universal data port.

Wow...

Now you are arguing against your own points....

If you ever wondered why I accused you of trying to pick a fight... This is a prime example.

Tell me about it. When I looked over the SR5 cyberdeck prices, my first thought was "Ok, knock a zero off all these prices and they start sounding a bit more reasonable."

Indeed... and while you are at it, cut back the Cyberware/Bioware prices as well...
They got crazy...

Okay, I think is about time the SR4 players take the discussion of collapsing the SR5 in-game economy out of the thread made to flesh out my vision for the SR5 Matrix.

Seriously people, the exit is that way. ----------------->

Before you ask:
I know you are SR4 players because you clearly come from a system where (a version of) Karma Buy is the standard generation method.
And to prove I know you are discussing collapsing the economy, I challenge each of you to make half a dozen SR5 characters using the (standard) Priority system with all of your suggestions. Divide Deck prices by ten, as well as cyber / bio ware, or whatever you find fair. Then make sure to have a character on each Resources Priority with the extra one being a second Resources Priority A character. And just for Janessa, one of the Priority A Resources characters can't be Awakened.
Then start your own thread to tell me what you learned.

Actually that's why I changed my mind about custom built decks. I'm just trying to bring SOME sanity to deckers, and this is somewhat tied to your attempt to make the Matrix sane.

I mean seriously, take away a Rigger's Proteus Poseidon RCC and he can get a CompuForce Taskmaster and NOT suffer a complete collapse of his ability to be a rigger. Take away a Sammies best guns (as the smart sammie will have wireless yanked from his cyberware) and in a game session he can have enough firepower that he's back in the game. Take away a Mage's power focus and yeah, he'll be hurt, but he can still sling spells and summon spirits. Take away a Decker's deck (i.e. he gets into a BAD Matrix fight and his deck gets bricked) and he's SCREWED!

I'm just trying to make it so that a Decker is not crippled if a bad roll of the dice happens.

Oh for fucks sake. Since you people have no God damn respect...




I get it. I understand. I don't disagree with you.

But here are the things you are refusing to consider:

1) You can't make the Archetype irrelevant.
The easier (read: cheaper) you make it for a "down on her/his luck Decker to get back in the game," the easier (read: cheaper) you make it for any other Archetype to become the Decker.
Is this a completely shitty answer? Yes. It doesn't change the fact the the Decker is an intrinsic Archetype to Shadowrun that can't be pissed away for a handful of nuyen.

2) There is no "simple" fix.
Even if you can somehow find the mystical answer to making the deck prices "sane" without making Tom the Combat Mage capable of taking over the Deckers' role after a few runs, you still have to take into account the entire game economy.
As I hinted at in my last post, adjusting the deck costs may require going all the way back (figuratively speaking) to Character Generation to adjust the Priority tables.
And then that has to be considered against the effect it has on the entire rest of the game.

In short, you want to make SR5 Deckers, just like SR4 Deckers, that people complained about and got us SR5 Deckers, that you want to make SR4 Deckers....

And yet, by not making it so a decker can get back into the game if they lose their deck YOU are not acknowledging the very real possibility that one bad roll of the dice can make the hacker irrelevant. If your street sammie gets shot up and is going to die he can burn a point of Edge and survive. The decker can't do that to save his deck... at least I don't think so. If I'm wrong I apologize.




Maybe the best way to fix this is to make decks partially cyberware and partially the physical keyboard. The keyboard is the "buffer" to protect the Decker's wetware and cyberware from Black IC. This way you protect the Hacker archetype without making it so the Decker is knocked out of the game on a bad night at the table, and make it so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can't be Hackers.

I mean if you want to look at the archetypal Decker, they ALWAYS spout cyber... and a lot of it. I remember the Neuromancer game, one of the first things you do is sell body parts to get more cyber. Right now, cranial cyberdecks are WAY too cheap Essence wise. I mean 0.5 Essence for the port to put in a cyberdeck... ridiculous. A Control Rig starts off at 1 Essence and Wired Reflexes also start off at 2 Essence.

Maybe you can go back to SR2 cranial cyberdecks. You had to buy every single component and they had to be balanced with one another. Now that might be a little too much to do in one sitting.

------------------------------------------------------

EDIT

Titan, I understand you're getting frustrated with bozos like me pissing all over the bulldrek SR Economy, but to fix the Matrix, you have to acknowledge that the price for cyberdecks makes it that a Decker can ever upgrade his gear, and if he loses his deck he might as well remake his character. A Street Sam (with internal Router) can just have the wireless ripped out of his wired reflexes (or just with wireless OFF) and a Decker can't do jack about his gear. A "typical" mage gives no fraks about Deckers as they MIGHT have a commlink, but that crap would be turned off during a run.

New to this thread?

Skip straight to the Table of Contents

Runs against a Host

With this proposed system, it might seem impossible to make a run against a host. And to be sure, it is more difficult. But fortunately, corps don’t work like individuals do.

Ideally, runners will do the necessary legwork (GMs discretion) to figure out the most vulnerable time to run against a host. For low rating hosts, like public libraries, this can be just about any time. For more secure hosts it will require timing it when the Spider takes their routine coffee break, or such.

If that is unsuccessful, or impractical, the runner has to rely on luck. The GM should make a secret Edge roll for the runner.

A Critical Glitch indicates the runner is spotted the moment they attempt to breech the Hosts’ defenses.
Otherwise, the runner has a number of Combat Turns equal to the Hits on the Edge roll + 1, unmonitored.
A Glitch reduces the number of Turns by one.

Return to the Table of Contents

Maybe part of the legwork is to try to get a temporary passcode. If the legwork is successful the hacker can just walk up to the front door and get in. Once the hacker is inside, then he can try to use his "l33t skillz" to get himself better access. Risky, but not as risky as trying it from the outside.

A "Hack on the Fly" might be the hacker trying to create his own passcode to get into the server. That would justify a decker having a Sleaze rating on his deck. A heck of lot more risky, but if you don't have the time or opportunity to get a passcode any other way.