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JaronK
Of course, I'm refering to the Remmington Roomsweeper. It seems to be halfway between a pistol and a shotgun... can I throw it into a concealable holster? I'm playing around with a pint-sized elven decker with a lot of curiosity and moxy, and, when the first two get him in trouble, a shotgun to bail him out.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
If it's classed as a pistol, I'd say yes. I don't remember the Roomsweeper offhand.

~J
Req
It's classed as a pistol. Conceal away.
Arethusa
The roomsweeper is classified as a shotgun, despite its pistol size concealability. By the rules, despite having a higher conceal than most heavy pistols, you can't. Why? Because the rules are insane, of course.
booklord
You know there is a point where one could just put the rules aside for a moment and just use common sense. Wouldn't this qualify as one of those times?
Kagetenshi
No.

~J
A Clockwork Lime
Actually, it's classified as a heavy pistol, including the ability to use heavy pistol ammunition ("in which case the weapon does 9M damage"), and is perfectly acceptable in a concealed holster. It just uses the rules (choke, shot, etc.) for shotguns.
JaronK
Hmm. Well, my decker only has shotguns skill, not pistols... will that be an issue? I'm sorta confused as to where it counts as a pistol and where it's a shotgun.

JaronK
A Clockwork Lime
It's one of those weird ones where you're basically okay with either skill as long as you settle on which skill your character is going to use with it. It's really up to your GM, though.
Ecclesiastes
I allow any weapon with a conceal of 4 or better to be used in a concealed holster.
JaronK
Hmm, so you allow a standard shotgun, the 250, in a concealable holster... rock!

JaronK
Smiley
If you want to use the pistol rules and be able to conceal it, you're gonna need the pistol skill. If you want to use the shotgun rules and use your shotgun skill, you shouldn't be able to conceal it. Using only the rules that are convenient (i.e., pistol rules to be able to throw it into the concealable holster, but shotgun rules to fire it) just seems cheesy and wrong somehow.
Moonwolf
Well, the Ares Predator 2 and 3 both have conceal 4, for some reason.
Arethusa
QUOTE (JaronK)
Hmm, so you allow a standard shotgun, the 250, in a concealable holster... rock!

JaronK

Right. Because it made so much more sense with conceal 6 shotguns and conceal 5 SMGs not being allowed.
Nikoli
On a troll, a shotgun SHOULD be concealable.
Phaeton
rotfl.gif Amen to that.
TinkerGnome
Depends on WHERE you are concealing it.
A Clockwork Lime
QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 20 2004, 02:05 PM)
QUOTE (JaronK @ May 20 2004, 03:47 PM)
Hmm, so you allow a standard shotgun, the 250, in a concealable holster... rock!

JaronK

Right. Because it made so much more sense with conceal 6 shotguns and conceal 5 SMGs not being allowed.

It's a good thing, then, that the standard rules make no mention whatsoever of Concealability with regards to what weapons can gain the +2 bonus a Concealable Holster grants. Only pistols, regardless of their Concealability, gain the bonus.

The Remington Roomsweeper is one of the odd ones in the rules. They're classified as heavy pistols, they use heavy pistol ranges, and they use heavy pistol calibers and clips apparently. They just happen to use shotgun rules when shooting one, including the ability to use shot (which, apparently, is readily available in a heavy pistol caliber). It's up to the GM to decide if they can be holstered or not and what skill you use, but the rules as written heavily suggest they can and that you use Pistols when doing so.

If you want to bitch about something, bitch about how they organize weapons by range instead of by class with range simply given as a stat.
JaronK
Quick other thing about shotguns... I read something about this, but now I forget. With shot, do you actually have to pay Flechette prices for the stuff, or can you just pay standard ammo prices for the shot? 100 ny for a single shot seems steep for what's basically just some pellets.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
First off, it'd be 100 for 10. Second, shot rounds cost the same as normal rounds. It's in there somewhere.

~J
Nikoli
Flechette is just that, shot shells are different, less areodynamic.

Shot and Solid are the same, flechette is more
JaronK
Err, yeah. 100 for 10. I knew that.

But anyway, where does it say that? My poor decker's so strapped for starting cash he can't afford an armour or attack program (thank goodness for high evasion and masking... it fits with the character anyway).

JaronK
Ecclesiastes
QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Depends on WHERE you are concealing it.

Exactly. A shotgun could be concealed along the length of your back or something.
Req
QUOTE (Ecclesiastes)
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ May 20 2004, 01:19 PM)
Depends on WHERE you are concealing it.

Exactly. A shotgun could be concealed along the length of your back or something.

Um, I don't think that's where he was going with it. ohplease.gif
Nikoli
Talk about busting a cap
Shrike30
I always envisioned the Roomsweeper as being a little bit like a chopped down semiautomatic rifle (feeds from an internal magazine rather than a tube mag, etc) with a pistol grip and an awfully short barrel, firing .410 gauge shotshell. That's not totally out of the range of believability (although i'd wonder why the hell anyone would bother). Not using a tubular magazine means that you can keep the gun much shorter than you could otherwise, although it gets noticeably bulkier.

The closest thing we've got to a Roomsweeper today is the Thunder Five... a 5 shot, .410 gauge revolver that probably rolls in around Conceal 4. 9M would be a good base damage value for that, apply shotshell rules if you load 'em.
Arethusa
What do you mean? A tube mag practically is an internal mag.
kevyn668
I thought the Roomsweeper fires in SS mode and was pump action.
JaronK
I'm not at home right now, but I could swear it's SA.

JaronK
kevyn668
<checks excel file created for use at work> Shit. You're right. Was it always? SR1? SR2?

That pic on the cover of SR1 and 2 has lead me astray!
Kagetenshi
Maybe it just pumps really quickly.

~J
Arethusa
You guys know that there are pump shotguns that can also switch to gas operation, right?
Smiley
Remington Roomsweeper: Conc. 6, Ammo 8(m), SA, 9s(f)
Kagetenshi
Like the Franchi SPAS line? Yes, we do.

~J
Kagetenshi
Like the Franchi SPAS line? Yes, we do.

~J
eidolon
QUOTE (booklord)
You know there is a point where one could just put the rules aside for a moment and just use common sense. Wouldn't this qualify as one of those times?

There have been several times in the relatively short time I've been reading through these forums when I wanted to just ask: Why don't you just make a call, and be done with it? I've always thought the most important part of GMing is knowing when to ignore the rules and just make a call. Not being able to quote them and relate every single one to a RL physics equation.
Kagetenshi
And during a game, that's what we usually do. When we've got time to give the matter proper thought, though, why not do so?

~J
Smiley
A little extra input from some other GMs who might've had similar questions helps a lot.
Arethusa
More to the point, when the question specifically pertains to canon rules, the answer will do the same. Of course it's within the GM's purview to modify horribly broken rules on the fly, and if you're even craizer, to modify them on your own time in some silly revisionist project, but that's pretty much an unspoken caveat.
xizor
apparantly you CAN put a smg in a concealable holster by cannon, its mentioned in the write up of the summit line parkas
QUOTE
the summit lines major selling point is that each coat features a built in concealable holster for wepons as large as a smg

page 48 top right hand corner in the cannon companion

yay grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
Nope. That just applies to that particular iteration of the holster.

~J, feeling snarky
xizor
but it does open up the possibility of making a concealable holster for a smg doesnt it?
A Clockwork Lime
Actually, it doesn't. As previously mentioned, you can put just about any weapon in a concealable holster. The +2 bonus, however, only applies to pistols; for anything else, it's treated as a standard holster. The only thing the Summit Line blurb does is limit the size of the weapon to that of an SMG.
Arethusa
Uh, I'd say the wording is sufficiently vague as to be interpetable in either direction. And let's not talk about realism. That shotgun has a conceal of 6 for fuck's sake. Reality ceases to apply.
Kagetenshi
Reality does not cease to apply. It just beings to apply very selectively wink.gif

~J
Xirces
Is the "size of an SMG" defined anywhere - common sense would say that means Pistols, SMGs and Tasers, but since you can get Assault Rifles and Shotguns more concealable than an SMG, does that mean they're smaller..? smile.gif
mfb
i'd go with the default Conceal ratings listed in CC for the different weapon types in the creation guide. i've always ignored the 'pistols only' rule, limiting it instead to base Conceal 4+. it's an easy change, and it alleviates some of the hurting that happens in my skull when i start thinking about SR rules.
toturi
I just follow the rules, my head don't hurt at all.
Siege
Doesn't the Secret Service or US Marshals have a very compact shotgun?

Visual reference: "The Replacement Killers" -- one of the bad guys carried the weapon during the assault on the forger's lab.

-Siege
Nikoli
Defendant: "It was only a little shotgun."
District Attourney: "Your honor, the term is 'Sawed-off'"
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