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John Campbell
QUOTE (toturi)
I believe my emphasis was appropriate since anything can be designated by a GM to be two handed. A penknife can be two handed, if so designated by a GM. The only in game keywords in that quote were Polearms and Reach of 2.

The meaning of the sentence involves all of the words in it, not just whatever "keywords" you choose to cherry-pick from it to support your point. You're overlooking the use of ambiguating words like "most", which implies that not all Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed, and "includes", which implies that other things besides Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed, and the explicit statement that the GM can add anything else he wants to the list of two-handed weapons (that the GM can do anything he wants is always implied, so I think the fact that they made it explicit here is meaningful).

Your interpretation of that sentence as saying that Reach 2 weapons and Polearms and only Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed is not supportable by the wording. What that sentence actually says is, "The GM can declare anything he wants to be two-handed, but we'd suggest he start by looking at the Polearms and Reach 2 weapons." IMAO, the katana, which is explicitly described by canon text as being two-handed, is another pretty solid candidate, especially since that, by happy coincidence, agrees with normal real-world usage of the weapon.

As I said, I'm nice... I allow use of katanas one-handed with no penalty beyond loss of the two-handed Power bonus. It'd be entirely supportable by canon to enforce the full penalties for using a two-handed weapon one-handed, though.
toturi
QUOTE (John Campbell)
Your interpretation of that sentence as saying that Reach 2 weapons and Polearms and only Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed is not supportable by the wording. What that sentence actually says is, "The GM can declare anything he wants to be two-handed, but we'd suggest he start by looking at the Polearms and Reach 2 weapons." IMAO, the katana, which is explicitly described by canon text as being two-handed, is another pretty solid candidate, especially since that, by happy coincidence, agrees with normal real-world usage of the weapon.

It is a Canon description, not a Canon game mechanic.
JaronK
Well, if we want to just go with that discription, a whip is two handed... and that's rediculus.

A katana is a two handed weapon. It can be weilded one handed, but that's not how it was meant to be weilded.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Phaeton)
I just have my GM make stats using CC for the NICW from Red Faction II. biggrin.gif

So you do. I still need to finish that…

~J
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Number 6 @ Jun 5 2004, 02:41 PM)
The Daikatana is a creation of fantasy video games based on the no-dachi, a larger, very rare, and less well-made katana.

No, the Daikatana is the creation of John Carmack's D&D game. It just happened that Romero later used it in a game (in said game, Romero caused the destruction of the gameworld because he aided a demon in gaining omnipotence in return for what the demon promised would be information leading to the Daikatana).

Edit: and yes, no-dachi are real. The Daikatana was the mystical "ultimate sword" of this particular D&D game, though, and as such is not a no-dachi, at least no more than the Rod of Seven Parts is a rod or the Hand of Vecna is a hand (they are, but they're also rather a lot more). Incidentally, as far as I can tell Daikatana literally means "large katana".

And I doubt that there has never been a time in history when a bushi tried to compensate for underendowment elsewhere by using a no-dachi in personal combat. I also doubt it worked very well, but people do all sorts of silly things.

~J
John Campbell
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And I doubt that there has never been a time in history when a bushi tried to compensate for underendowment elsewhere by using a no-dachi in personal combat. I also doubt it worked very well, but people do all sorts of silly things.

I suspect that you'd be rather fatally surprised if you were to go into a duel against someone wielding a no-dachi expecting it to not work very well in single combat. Functionally, there's very little difference between a no-dachi and a claymore and a zweihander... and the Germans wrote entire books about using zweihanders in personal combat.
Shadow
QUOTE (toturi)
Arethusa, relax. It would seem that RoUS is conducting a low intensity irritation campaign, going after him with a big hammer isn't going to work. Perhaps you could mirror image him?

Well he could, but Rous has actually played the game. Since Arethusa is intent on rewriting the rules and going on about how horrible they are, one would expect him to have some first hand knowledge of them.

I would think it terribly frustrating to debate the meaning of the rules with someone only to find out the person had never actually played the game, or at least such a little amount to be virtually none.

I am not saying he (Arethusa) can't know about the game. But come on, to propose that you are qualified to re-write the rules and you have only played the game once? Be real.

Anyways, I am sure you will come back with some whity retort like shut up.
Kagetenshi
You do realize that it's possible to get a grasp of the rules by, y'know, reading them? And if you've got the time to spend to run through dry runs with characters, you can get an idea of how they actually end up working?

~J
CircuitBoyBlue
One cannot understand the rules by reading them. Indeed, reading them is in fact an impediment toward understanding them. Do not attempt to understand the rules; rather, understand them. Zen is achieved not through taking the steps to perform an action, but through simply performing the action.

Oh, wait. I'm full of shit. Of course it's possible to understand the rules by reading them, that's what the sourcebook's FOR.
Xirces
Someone mentioned that, according to the rules, whips should require two-handed use as a reach 2 weapon. It's pretty obvious that isn't the case since whips are listed as a off-hand weapon (cc, p96).

However... the same table lists the katana as a primary weapon (note the total absence of any specific two-handed weapons in that table) which would indicate it can be used single-handed. Having completely ruined my own point I'll go eat some more mushrooms.

It's pretty clear that, as with most of the rules, that the SR designers were swayed by too much popular culture to think about how things work in the real world. It's a sad indictment of geek culture (in particular) that RPGs, movies, anime and computer games seem to draw on each other for evidence of how things work and they merely perpetuate myths between themselves.

If it was written that the katana is two-handed and can be used single-handed with a penalty then some screaming samurai wannabe would be going -

"but, but, but... EVERYONE knows that real samurai used daishi so I've got to be able to use it single-handed, and please add some rules for using two weapons at the same time because then I can be like Drizzt. Cool."
Adarael
Xirces:
QUOTE
I've just re-read this and is it Wakazashi or Wakizashi?

The crap thing? Either, really. Generally the more accepted way is 'wakizashi,' at least in terms of how common it is. But since there's no universal method to romajization, it can be either. And I'm not sure offhand what the kanji is, or I'd give it to you.

Arethustra:
I'd blame the popularization of the nodachi as an anti-personnel weapon not so much on video games or anime so much as Akira Kurosawa's 'Seven Samurai', due to Toshiro Mifune's character using one in that in his efforts to be a 'real' samurai - which, it should be noted, he most certainly was not.
Lantzer
I'm voting 'Other' for the Ruger Warhawk.

For the Mage or decker with a low initiative and shooty skill, the big-arse revolver says it all. 'Like I'm gonna need more than six shots!"
Hasaku
It's been a while since I've seen it, but I could have sworn he shortened his no-dachi sometime during the film.
Zazen
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You do realize that it's possible to get a grasp of the rules by, y'know, reading them? And if you've got the time to spend to run through dry runs with characters, you can get an idea of how they actually end up working?

You get an idea, but I've found Arethusa to rely a little too much on those rough ideas. He's got the kind of personality that speaks too confidently when unequipped for a discussion. That annoys people.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Adarael)
The crap thing? Either, really. Generally the more accepted way is 'wakizashi,' at least in terms of how common it is. But since there's no universal method to romajization, it can be either. And I'm not sure offhand what the kanji is, or I'd give it to you.

??

Er, that didn't work. http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/fg=r/inli...%cf%c6%ba%b9?TR has a picture of them.

~J
Zeel De Mort
Well, the kun reading of the first character in that link can be either WaKi or WaKe, so you could also say it could be read as wakezashi. I'd agree that wakizashi is the most common and best reading of it though.

I'd also say you should be able to use a katana one-handed in SR without any penalty despite what the flavour text says in SR3, just cos I love it. smile.gif
Mystical_X
My characters always seem to have at least one set of throwing knives on them, but now that i think back i think that i have actually thrown one only once or twice. mostly i use them as a really small melee weapon (good for sneaking up behind and sticking in people)

I think some of their coolness factor , to me anyway, is that my uncle works in a circus doing the "Wheel of Death" thing. he could hit an apple dead center with a knife at 20 yards.
Kagetenshi
But can he do it at 15, 12, and 10 as well?

~J
Mystical_X
QUOTE
But can he do it at 15, 12, and 10 as well?

~J


yea, but my aunt would never let him in the kitchen because he couldn't chop anything without cutting himself (and he tended to juggle the steak knives, but thats a different story dead.gif ).
Kagetenshi
That's pretty impressive. Being able to hit with the point from any given distance is amazingly difficult.

~J
Noctum
I have to say that I'm fond of Twin Cougar Fine Blades, with an Ambidexterity 8 Physad, with Edged Weapons 6, improved combat ability(Edged) 6, and counterstrike 4 Geased. your swinging 15 dice on the attack before combat pool, and 19 dice on defence before combat pool. Now thats some nasty stuff.
CircuitBoyBlue
I gotta say, even if Mystical X's uncle COULD only hit the target with circus-grade precision from 20 yards and not from 10, 12, and 15 as well, I'd still be impressed. That guy's coolness factor would still be leaps and bounds above me, anyone I know, or anyone that anyone I know has ever met. And that's cool.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (Noctum)
I have to say that I'm fond of Twin Cougar Fine Blades, with an Ambidexterity 8 Physad, with Edged Weapons 6, improved combat ability(Edged) 6, and counterstrike 4 Geased. your swinging 15 dice on the attack before combat pool, and 19 dice on defence before combat pool. Now thats some nasty stuff.

Actually (and check my math) I believe that's 18 dice on attack, 22 on defense before combat pool. You get half your improved ability dice on the offhand, too.
hobgoblin
just to add some fuel to the fire, was there noe a modern swordmaker that made some sowrds useing classical europena designs and the metal folding used on katanas? i belive he found that the european styles swords performed just as well as a katana in the tests.

i do suspect that if europe had not moved on to rapiers and gunpowder we would have seen similar gains in metal tech as the ones in japan...
Shadow
Hobgoblin, European swords (of an equal time period) are superior to Katana’s in everyway.

*gasp* did someone just say that?

Katana's are great swords, and very pretty, but they are the simplest form of sword. The blade curves during the folding process. It is a natural side effect of it. Advanced manufacturing techniques are needed to keep the sword straight, and therefore make it stronger.

Katana wielders (and by the way, Katana is the modern name, it literally means sword) had to practice for a long time before they were ever given anything more than a practice sword.

This was to make them better. right?

No.

It is because if you hit something with a Katana at the wrong angle you will shatter the sword. Contrary to popular belief they cannot cut through car, nor deflect bullets.

The greatest Katana's ever crafted (at least as generally accepted) were made about 200 years ago. And they were folded a whopping 30 times.

Anyone can find this out with a little research, I recommend it.

-Shadow

*hating the mythology around Katana's more by the minute, the truth is so much better*
hobgoblin
thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns wink.gif

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways smile.gif
Siege
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns wink.gif

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways smile.gif

Damn, somebody better tell the SEALs they're wasting time learning the knife. grinbig.gif

-Siege
mcb
Every time someone mentions sword use in a game universe were guns are present I always think of the seen where Indiana Jone shoot the swordsman. Swords are great in a good game of D&D but in Shadowrun they seem very much style and fluff. There seem to be very few incidence were the sword is more usefull than a firearm.

mcb
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 7 2004, 04:56 PM)
thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete  these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns wink.gif

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways smile.gif

Damn, somebody better tell the SEALs they're wasting time learning the knife. grinbig.gif

-Siege

heh, i see the grin but i want to comment that i see a knife as usefull but anything big (like say a sword or similar) is just silly to bring onto the modern battlefield. even more so to the urban one where concealability and flexibility is what you want and big items have a bad habbit of being very low on either...
Kagetenshi
They're quieter than even suppressed guns, they outperform guns at extremely short distances (extremely tight terrain would be the place for this), and they don't run out of ammo.

Shadow, not entirely correct. The curve of a good katana has some rather nice aerodynamic properties, so it's hardly just the effect of the manufacturing technique and nothing more. Furthermore, show me a sword as sharp as a proper katana that won't shatter when you hit something with it badly.

Katana are not the überweapons that some make them out to be, but they're quite nice swords, and in several ways outperform European swords (the reverse is also true).

~J
Siege
Generally speaking, you won't find many scenarios where a sword is better than a firearm in real life. Although every once in a while, somebody does run out of ammo and hth combat is joined -- I recall a story in Korea about a company of men who learned bayonet fighting and successfully engaged a Chinese unit after their ammo was expended.

That being said, modern weapons and future weapon platforms are ill-suited to the rough-and-tumble nature of melee combat.

However, in SR, spirits and nasty things highly resistant to gunfire abound. Which begs why any sane person would attack one in melee, but there ya go.

Now, a good stick and/or knife skill set would be highly useful in a variety of scenarios, although learning those skills takes more time and effort than most agencies are willing to devote, apparently.

-Siege
Shadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
They're quieter than even suppressed guns, they outperform guns at extremely short distances (extremely tight terrain would be the place for this), and they don't run out of ammo.

Shadow, not entirely correct. The curve of a good katana has some rather nice aerodynamic properties, so it's hardly just the effect of the manufacturing technique and nothing more. Furthermore, show me a sword as sharp as a proper katana that won't shatter when you hit something with it badly.

Katana are not the überweapons that some make them out to be, but they're quite nice swords, and in several ways outperform European swords (the reverse is also true).

~J

This is pretty much what I was saying.

The person I responded to said something about how Uber Katana's were and I was just trying to shed some light.

From my reading (and I could be wrong) the curve of the blade was 'left in' because the original sword was made to be used from horse back. And they found when striking down from the mount, the shock of impact was less, and they were more likely able to retrieve their blade, if it was curved.

If you look at most Calvary weapon (saber' come to mind) they are curved.

Yes Katana's are excellent swords. Is each and every one imbibed with the spirit of a 100 slain samurai and capable of cutting through metal. No. Not even one. And no matter how much anime says otherwise, it never was that way. Ever.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
When it comes down to it, a katana is pretty much the Flechette ammo of the melee world, while western blades are the APDS ammo. A katana will slice through flesh and light armor as if it were butter, but European blades were designed to punch through equally masterfully-forged steel armor.
John Campbell
QUOTE (mcb)
Every time someone mentions sword use in a game universe were guns are present I always think of the seen where Indiana Jone shoot the swordsman.

Of course, the swordsman's big problem in that scene wasn't that he had a sword and Indy had a gun. At that range, the gun has no significant advantage. The swordsman's problem was that he was wasting time showing off instead of just killing Indy. If he'd simply thrown a blow to the head, it would've been all over before Indy got his gun clear of the holster.
Shadow
Accept that Indy was about thirty feet away from the guy, and he had a .357 with a 6 inch barrel. He could of put 6 holes in the guy before he got close enough to use the sword, let alone throw it.
Zeel De Mort
Well as I recall the swordsman was a good 5-10m away at the time.


Anyway, in SR terms an advantage (at least for my character) of katanas and the like over firearms is that I can do more damage in a single hit than with any regular firearms (I don't own a panther cannon, but even so I could probably surpass that with enough drugs). So they're handy for taking out spirits and things when the usual full auto from your assault rifle does nothing.

Likewise for barriers (both normal ones and those created by spells).

Generally though firearms can take care of most of your problems. smile.gif
A Rodent of Unusual Size
The guy also demanded Indy's attention while doing the asinine flashy moves. If he had just charged, it would have been a different story.
mcb
http://www.indygear.com/gear/guns.shtml

Interestingly enough it probably wasn't a 357 in the shooting of the movie or in the story. The above link talks about all the different handgun used in the filming of the movies.

Also Raiders of the Ark was set in 1936 the 357 Magnum was only introduced in 1935 so the likely hood of Indy having aquired such a new revolver would be unlikely though possible.
Moonstone Spider
Just to back up Shadow some more and dispel even more Katana-Worship, the kind of folding used on Katanas was Stolen by the Japanese from the middle east, where it was used for centuries before them. Hence a real metalsmith will call folded metal "Damascus" after the city famous for it's folded steel blades. Even the ancient Vikings used folded swords. The fact is that we did see the same folded grains in the metal of many European swords.

However Europe didn't use the highly stylized ritual combat of the East, in Europe it was pretty much kill the other guy by any means possible. As such swords really weren't used much, Axes were vastly cheaper and just as effective for a grunt soldier, and pikes were quite superior in group combat.

If I had to point to a single sword as superior to all others I'd go with the Gladius. It was manufactured primarily in Toledo, Spain, and as such used Damascus-style folding. The Roman Legions carried it and managed to kick the ass of pretty much every other army they ever met. Part of that, of course, was tactics, but I doubt they were using highly inferior equipment in all those wars.
Kagetenshi
And the kind of propellant used by European firearms was stolen from the Chinese. That doesn't make it any less effective.

As for the gladius, I really can't say that I've seen anything to make me think they would be much to speak of. They were meant to be produced in large numbers and quickly, and that just isn't conducive to quality.

~J
Shadow
QUOTE (mcb)
http://www.indygear.com/gear/guns.shtml

Interestingly enough it probably wasn't a 357 in the shooting of the movie or in the story. The above link talks about all the different handgun used in the filming of the movies.

Also Raiders of the Ark was set in 1936 the 357 Magnum was only introduced in 1935 so the likely hood of Indy having aquired such a new revolver would be unlikely though possible.

I was just guessing on the revolver. Do to poor editing he actualy uses two different guns. One is a 1911 (I think) in the scene in Nepal. The rest of the movie he uses a revolver.

I don't know if they ever made .45cal revolvers, but I recall them hinting that was what it was.
CircuitBoyBlue
The trick to the gladius wasn't superior craftsmanship. They weren't meant to be struck against other swords in a parry. Roman tactics mostly involved quick, underhanded thrusts for the kill, meant to go get in under the shield of the opponent and gut him (or her, those kooky Romans were always killing civilians).
Siege
QUOTE (Shadow)
QUOTE (mcb @ Jun 7 2004, 11:00 AM)
http://www.indygear.com/gear/guns.shtml

Interestingly enough it probably wasn't a 357 in the shooting of the movie or in the story.  The above link talks about all the different handgun used in the filming of the movies.

Also Raiders of the Ark was set in 1936 the 357 Magnum was only introduced in 1935 so the likely hood of Indy having aquired such a new revolver would be unlikely though possible.

I was just guessing on the revolver. Do to poor editing he actualy uses two different guns. One is a 1911 (I think) in the scene in Nepal. The rest of the movie he uses a revolver.

I don't know if they ever made .45cal revolvers, but I recall them hinting that was what it was.

Actually, according to the website it was a Browning.

-Siege
Cain
While I'm hardly a katana-fanboy, it does bear mentioning that even the "common" katanas were made with the Damascus techniques. The "common" European sword wasn't, although their finest decidely were. Japan, being a relatively metal-poor country, simply couldn't afford to mass-manufacture blades like Europe did, they had to make the most out of their limited resources.

BTW, Shadow-- a blade folded 30 times would result in over a million layers. That just sounds wrong to me, somehow. Are you absolutely sure a katana was folded that many times?
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2004, 11:12 PM)

BTW, Shadow-- a blade folded 30 times would result in over a million layers.  That just sounds wrong to me, somehow.  Are you absolutely sure a katana was folded that many times?

I realize that question wasn't directed at me, but I've seen that number a few times. It takes a great skill to do something like that, obviously. I suppose it could be done.

Sword, katana, take your pick. I personally, like the claymore. Or a lance, but I guess that's fallen out of use in 2060...

Edit: Hmm...dikoted steel lance on a drone horse...with heavy security armor... lick.gif
Siege
Well, armor tailored to have a medieval feel.

Bike 6
Polearm (Lance) 5/7
Edged weapons (sword) 5/7


Bike
Riot Shield
Lance
custom-tailored armor
custom-designed bike helmet

Delusion -2 (Searching for Holy Grail)
Delusion -2 (reincarnation of Questing Knight)
Honor bound -2 (You know, Chivalry and all that drek)

I see a poser gang motif forming here. Or an adept with issues. grinbig.gif

-Siege
CircuitBoyBlue
You got the delusion wrong. Out-of-place chivalrous types harking back to a bygone era have delusions that cause them to charge windmills because "they might be giants"
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Shadow)
Is each and every one imbibed with the spirit of a 100 slain samurai and capable of cutting through metal. No. Not even one. And no matter how much anime says otherwise, it never was that way. Ever.

WHAT!?!?!

*jumps out window*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!
Kagetenshi
That's not true. It was exactly like that on June 12, 1732, and on alternate Sundays for three months thereafter.

~J
k1tsune
Muahaha. Just posting here to say.. I'm ba-ack!!
And I voted monowhip. Everyone wants a monowhip.



-k1tsune/Alex/whatever ya want to call me..
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