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Die blaue Reiterin
The title says it all. Does all or some of the players in your game have a strong bias for a specific weapon ?

In my gaming group, some of the players are really fond on katanas ( and now that they've seen kill bill, I just don't want to think about it ). Sometime, they just won't stop telling you how good and cool katanas are... grinbig.gif Anybody in the same situation ?
JaronK
All my non-combat characters (riggers, deckers) go with the shotguns. They're versitile, and even with low skill you can blow the hell out of someone.

JaronK
Arethusa
I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months, but christ, too many katana.
Rock-Steady
Ak-97 and Colt M-23 Assault Rifles. Cheap and customizable.

MGL-6 Grenade Launcher.

Cougar Short Blade.
John Campbell
I actively target people carrying katanas.
FlakJacket
Ah katanas, the 'Shoot Me Now Stick'. Shotguns all the way over here.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
Wait? A katana is considered cool? I'm always the last to know these things.

That said, I'm all about the shotgun.
Hasaku
I like my weapons like I like my characters, compact and feisty.

Says the guy with a dwarven Adversary shaman and a penchant for P-90s.
Adarael
My coolness-factor weaponry has almost always been as follows:

Under-Hand Spur - I.E. it springs out from the bottom side of your forearm, along the palm of your hand. Lateral cutting surface parallel to the plane of your hand. Nearly every cybered character I've made has had one of these.

Steyr Aug-CSL - Granted, in 3rd edition it takes four skills to use properly, but it's all about the total assassin weapon.

The Colt Manhunter.
We *love* our colt manhunters. Yessss.
Number 6
Apparently my face needs to trade his Ares Alpha for a shotgun purely for style points.
Moonstone Spider
Gods, if I want a sword in SR I'll take a Katana just because it's better than any other sword but I'll try to get my GM to agree that it's actually a Shamshir, Scimitar, or Sabre (depends on the character design) and just happens to have the same game stats as a Katana.

Weapons I see the most are:
Melee: Katana
Pistol: Ares Predator
Shotgun: Defiance T-250
SMG: Ingram Smartgun
Assault Rifle: AK-98
Grenade: Splash with something horrible inside.

Rarely do heavy weapons come into play.
Phaeton
I just have my GM make stats using CC for the NICW from Red Faction II. biggrin.gif
Siege
Hey, the Ingram Smartgun is a beautiful weapon.

Although for non-cybered critters, the HK MP-5 is a nice substitute.

-Siege
danbot37
there's the ever popular non lethal methods too... I've seen a lot of ares preds loaded with gel rounds, and then there's the super squirt's loaded with gamma scopamaline laced DMSO.
Modesitt
I'm immensely disappointed in the shotgun selection in SR. Even with the CC, we have not given pump action shotguns or double barreled shotguns.

Now, if it hadn't been possible to make them with the CC weapon creation system I'd be REALLY irritable. I'm just really amused that the only 'break action' weapons in SR are a El Chiro shotgun-pistol and missile/rocket launchers.

I DO NOT HAVE MY BOOMSTICK, THEREFORE I AM NOT HAPPY.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Modesitt)
I'm immensely disappointed in the shotgun selection in SR. Even with the CC, we have not given pump action shotguns or double barreled shotguns.

Now, if it hadn't been possible to make them with the CC weapon creation system I'd be REALLY irritable. I'm just really amused that the only 'break action' weapons in SR are a El Chiro shotgun-pistol and missile/rocket launchers.

I DO NOT HAVE MY BOOMSTICK, THEREFORE I AM NOT HAPPY.

No pump-action shotguns? I thought that somewhere in CC there were stats for one of the dual-mode gas-op Benelli shotguns...And don't forget the Street Sweeper! It's break-action, too...Although it's a ganger weapon and mildly stinks.

Personally, I want a made-for-troll break-action double-barrel firing anti-tank rifle slugs...Or just .700 Nitro Express. grinbig.gif
Modesitt
QUOTE
No pump-action shotguns? I thought that somewhere in CC there were stats for one of the dual-mode gas-op Benelli shotguns...And don't forget the Street Sweeper! It's break-action, too...Although it's a ganger weapon and mildly stinks.


I think the RL Spas is a dual-mode, not sure though. We DESERVE a true pump action shotgun! The street sweeper also doesn't really count - It's a muzzle loader. I suppose we'll have to satiate ourselves with Reynen's work.

Oh, and I take back what I said about making a double barreled shotgun in SR. You can't. A break action gun can only have one shot in it(Pg. 74 CC). Later in that paragraph, it says that you can offset these reductions with Improved Ammo Capacity.

Improved Ammo Capacity only applies to Cylinder and Internal magazine. Even the CC rules don't allow a double-barreled shotgun.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Modesitt @ Jun 4 2004, 08:11 PM)


I think the RL Spas is a dual-mode, not sure though.

Yeah, the Franchi SPAS 12 can be operated as a pump action or a gas-operated autoloader. There's a little button in the fore-end that closes off the gas system, for use with low pressure ammunition that isn't powerful enough to cycle the action.

I'd allow a 2(b) shotgun. Firing both barrels at once would count as a short burst, I suppose.

Popular weapons? Dikoted swords and Cougar fineblade long knives...
mcb
It might be tempting to give a double barrel the damage bonus for the short burst without the recoil penalty. Since with a double barrel that has two triggers both barrel can be fire at exacly the same time thus both rounds have left the barrel before the shooter has to deal with the recoil.

Although not all double barrels can fire both barrels at the same time, double barrels with a single trigger have to fire one barrel after the other.
cutter07
QUOTE
All my non-combat characters (riggers, deckers) go with the shotguns. They're versitile, and even with low skill you can blow the hell out of someone.


Plus great for crowd control. Sucker those gang members to follow you throw a doorway, hall, or other bottleneck then BOOM!. 2 bursts of area effect 13D buckshot is good stuff. smile.gif
cutter07
While the SPa-12 is a pretty sweet running design it has a major flaw. As such its been recalled. Heres the details


http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recal...nchi%20SPA%2012

FRANCHI
MODEL SPAS 12, SAS 12 and LAW, SHOTGUN

RECALL: Your Shotgun May Fire When You Take It "Off Safe"!!!

A limited number of SPAS-12, SAS-12 and LAW-12 shotguns, formerly imported by the bankrupt F.I.E. Corporation, may accidentally fire when the "CARRY SAFETY" (the large rotating safety lever located on the right front side of the trigger guard) is rotated from the "ON SAFE" to the "OFF SAFE" position.

Franchi urges all owners to immediately cease all use of these shotguns. Carefully unload the chamber and magazine, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and return the shotgun to American Arms, Inc.

American Arms, Inc., the Franchi factory authorized service center, will replace the potentially defective rotating lever safety system with a new push button cross bolt safety system. The service work, replacement safety system, and shipping are FREE OF CHARGE.

Send your shotgun carefully packed and insured via the United Parcel Service Company to:

American Arms, Inc.
Franchi Recall
715 E. Armour Rd.
N. Kansas City, MO 64116

If you require additional information or have any questions on this recall, call (816) 474-3161.
Panzergeist
Monowhip. Ever see Johnny Mnemonic? But, honestly, individual weapons aren't nearly as cool as combinations of weapons. My ultimate baddass character would have a monosword weapon focus, a dikoted short sword, and a monowhip implanted in his SURGEd prehensile tail, and a pair of custom-made semiautomatic heavy pistols with homemade explosive incendiary ammo. And some grenades and c-12.
Shockwave_IIc
Nothing says, "Don't ^!# with me" more then a SPAS in my eyes. You don't even need a skill to make the other person scared, just a clip from this thing firing on burst and you become pizza topping.

And that ability is cool....
Smiley
Scoff at katanas if you will, but if you slap some dikote on those bad boys, you're laying down a heaping helping of damage with every swing. And, like someone else mentioned, they're better than the other swords. Why NOT take one if you want to swing a sword?
Person 404
Actually, at least the way I interpret the rules, they're 'better' in that they're wielded two-handed, which conveniently explains the +1 power over other, (I assume) one-handed swords. Granted, people usually value the +1 power potential over the free hand, but it is there.
Lilt
QUOTE
So, in your game, which weapon always come back for no other apparent reason than its 'coolness' factor?

Well most of these choices aren't going to be purely because of coolness factor. Katanas are about the nastiest melee weapons, Shotguns do a lot of damage... That there's game mechanics, not nessecarily coolness factor.

Then-again, it could be argued that katanas were given a higher damage code *because* of their 'coolness factor' with japanese fanboys...
Xirces
"Katana: The two-handed "samurai" sword..." (sr3, p275)

When using a two-handed weapon with a single hand apply +2TN and -2Power (CC p98).

When using a sword with 2 hands you get +1Power (CC, p99), therefore swords are actually better because you can choose how you wield it and either get additional power or have a knife in your off-hand and get more dice... Plus, they're only half price.

I'm afraid anyone taking a katana is actually choosing the worse option and therefore is taking it for style and concept only, which is a good thing, of course, as we don't like munchkins, powergamers and metagamers. smile.gif
Siege
The fanboy factor is why I always opted for the Ares Monosword.

Although I gotta admit, the combat axe was pretty cool too. grinbig.gif

-Siege
toturi
QUOTE (Xirces)
"Katana: The two-handed "samurai" sword..." (sr3, p275)

When using a two-handed weapon with a single hand apply +2TN and -2Power (CC p98).

When using a sword with 2 hands you get +1Power (CC, p99), therefore swords are actually better because you can choose how you wield it and either get additional power or have a knife in your off-hand and get more dice... Plus, they're only half price.

I'm afraid anyone taking a katana is actually choosing the worse option and therefore is taking it for style and concept only, which is a good thing, of course, as we don't like munchkins, powergamers and metagamers. smile.gif

I have always taken the weapon description for katana to be fluff. I have taken anything listed under the Two Weapon Melee Table (Primary or Secondary) to be a single handed weapon.

Moreover, I have also followed the Rules for Using Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

QUOTE
These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.


So basically anything that uses Polearms as a skill or has a Reach of 2(or greater) are two handed. Fluff does not a game rule make.
John Campbell
QUOTE (toturi)
Moreover, I have also followed the Rules for Using Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

QUOTE
These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.


So basically anything that uses Polearms as a skill or has a Reach of 2(or greater) are two handed. Fluff does not a game rule make.

One moment... let me adjust the emphasis on your quote more appropriately....

QUOTE
These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.


That's not exactly the hard and fast rule you're trying to make it out to be, is it?

I personally operate on the theory that the katana already has the two-handed Power bonus factored in, and allow use of it one-handed without the extra point of Power. Western bastard swords and other hand-and-a-half blades use the same stats and rules.

That's just my house rules, though... I suspect the nihophile fanboy bonus is the more accurate description of the motivation behind canon. That also explains the bo staff's nonsensical damage bonus, I think.
Zephania
OK if you are going to start penalising players for useing the Katana one handed what do you do when they use it in one hand and have a wakazashi in the other as the traditional samurai did?
Cochise
Savalette Guardian ... Dunno why ... I simply like it ...

Then there's the Uzi III .. Whenever a certain player mentions this weapon all players at the table get very nervous. Has something to do with an elven ganger with a SMG skill of 4 taking down two "Wolverine"-Clones (elfish and trollish cyberverisons of good old Logan) in two consecutive actions.
Ever since that day, the Uzi III is a feared weapon, albeit being burst only
Xirces
QUOTE (Zephania @ Jun 5 2004, 04:58 PM)
OK if you are going to start penalising players for useing the Katana one handed what do you do when they use it in one hand and have a wakazashi in the other as the traditional samurai did?

Nowhere in the SR rules is such as thing as a wakazashi.

As far as I was aware (and someone will probably correct me) but the traditional Samurai primarily used the katana two-handed. The wakazashi is a companion blade, kept on the self for ceremonial purposes and when keeping the katana would be impractical or impolite - such as dinner at your friend's house. The katana would be left at the door and the wakazashi would be kept on the belt (a combination of "just in case" and a semi-religious thing - compare the Kris and the Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kinda like checking your heavy pistol at the door of the club whilst keeping the holdout in the boot holster.

Not that I'm a Samurai expert by any means (but the stuff I've picked up is from, what should be, pretty good sources).

(edit: I've just re-read this and is it Wakazashi or Wakizashi? - I've also used the latter but got a sudden crisis of confidence when it came to spelling smile.gif )
cpcarrot
I was under the impression that the Katana and the wakazashi were the standard combination weapons of the time. Very similar to the rapiar and the dueling dagger of medieval times... The Katana was designed as a single handed weapon certainly and has no where near the length to justify it being used two handed... (It could be but from a purely fencing point of view this would not prove very effective). There was a larger version of the katana known as the Daikatana which was essentially a much bigger two handed blade which may be what you are thinking of...
John Campbell
Katanas are hand-and-a-half weapons. They're short enough and light enough to be used effectively one-handed, but have a two-handed hilt, and can also be used two-handed, for extra speed and power.

And if you think that using a katana two-handed is not effective, all I can say is that you should try facing one in the hands of someone competent sometime. They don't have the reach of the big greatswords (have I mentioned recently that Shadowrun way overrates Reach?), but they're fast and maneuverable and hit plenty hard.

As far as I know, Xirces is entirely correct. While you can fight with the katana in one hand and wakizashi in the other, and it was done, it wasn't done commonly. It was worthy of note when Musashi did it, for example (Musashi also fought duels to the death with sticks, oars, and shinai, so he wasn't exactly a stylistic traditionalist).
otomik
QUOTE
Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kirpan
For some it's very practical sharp and carried on the belt, for others will have it unsharpened and concealed in a way that doesn't allow easy access (activists on either side will tell you it's only one of these but it's really a mix).
Jot Singh Khalsa is a fairly famous knifemaker
You can sometimes see a similar attitude in Mormons towards firearms due to persicution early in their history.
Xirces
QUOTE (otomik)
QUOTE
Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kirpan

Thanks.

I got a thorough grounding in Sikhism during my school days as it was (probably) the second most common religion at my school at the time, so the favourite for comparitive religious studies, but for the life of me I couldn't recall (but it was 15 years ago and I've had a heavy afternoon).

Number 6
QUOTE (cpcarrot @ Jun 5 2004, 12:41 PM)
I was under the impression that the Katana and the wakazashi were the standard combination weapons of the time. Very similar to the rapiar and the dueling dagger of medieval times... The Katana was designed as a single handed weapon certainly and has no where near the length to justify it being used two handed... (It could be but from a purely fencing point of view this would not prove very effective). There was a larger version of the katana known as the Daikatana which was essentially a much bigger two handed blade which may be what you are thinking of...

The katana is a two-handed weapon, you can do some stuff with it one handed but it negates all the benefits, incredible speed and cutting power. I take aikijutsu, which has some katana kata, and all the strikes are 2-handed. The Daikatana is a creation of fantasy video games based on the no-dachi, a larger, very rare, and less well-made katana. As mentioned the wakizashi was a ceremonial blade, or used as last-ditch defence when visiting someones home (where you typically left your katana at the door).

The length of a katana varied a bit based on the time period. During the era of the feuding clans katana blades, and their handles, were quite a bit longer. The reach helped you in mass battles and the longer handle gave you more torque on the cut. Later, Tokugawa and beyond, the blade and handle became shorter since a fast draw became more important if ambushed, and there were less wars.

Campbell is right, Musashi is far from revered in many Kenjutsu circles, then and now. The two-sword style was/is considered 'unfair' and disrespectful to the katana. Musashi's use of boken for most of his career came off as contemptuous of his opponents, again was an unfair advantage since it was lighter and therefore faster, and also was much more dangerous than the katana. A katana could cleanly sever a limb, leaving the samurai some years of life or at least a clean kill. Boken shatter bones, almost guaranteeing a slow, lingering death. Musashi was the original 'samurai' min-max munchkin, and was treated like it.

This is all real-life, I don't really know what the intentions were in-game.
Glyph
Actually, a normal sword is better than a katana if you use the advanced combat rules. According to pg. 99 of the Cannon Companion, using a one-handed weapon with two hands gives you +1 to the Power of the attack - making a sword wielded two-handed capable of doing (Str + 2)S damage.
Omega Skip
Err... wouldn't increasing the power make it ((Str+3) M)? Since damage codes are (Power (Damage Level))?
A Rodent of Unusual Size
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months

This explains much.
Glyph
QUOTE (Omega Skip)
Err... wouldn't increasing the power make it ((Str+3) M)? Since damage codes are (Power (Damage Level))?

Yeah, you're right. Got the two confused there. But that still makes a sword as good as a Katana.
Cain
QUOTE
Oh, and I take back what I said about making a double barreled shotgun in SR. You can't. A break action gun can only have one shot in it(Pg. 74 CC). Later in that paragraph, it says that you can offset these reductions with Improved Ammo Capacity.

Improved Ammo Capacity only applies to Cylinder and Internal magazine. Even the CC rules don't allow a double-barreled shotgun.

Umm... Okay, point of order here. Specific-case rules always win out over general ones. If a specific example allows you to do something, then you can in that situation, even though a more generalized rule contradicts it. So, you *can* have Imrpoved Ammo Capacity with break action, despite the apparent contradiction. Since a double-barred shotgun isn't inherently broken, I can't see any problem with it-- certainly not in relation to what I could do with shotguns under the CC rules!

But to bring things back on topic-- the weapon I see most used for the "coolness factor" alone is the katana. Most everything else mentioned have excellent uses in many circumstances-- monowhips are good for low-strength characters, Ares Predators are so common as to be unremarkable (and untraceable!), and shotguns are way too versatile to ignore. A close second are machine pistols, which are generally used to spray lead and not much else.
Zazen
I really like the staff. It looks awfully cool in kung fu flicks.
shadd4d
I'll never forget my best friend's phys ad, ambedexterious, with weapon foci in both hands. They were knives, modelled on the cougar fineblade longblade.

Ouch.

Don

@Die Blaue Ritterin: Du weisst, dein Name hoert sich sehr kommisch an.

DAD, III
CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (Cain)

Umm... Okay, point of order here.

QUOTE


Check your Robert's Rules, there, chief. Section 23 clearly states that a point of order is only in order when the rules of debate have been breached. Had that been a legitimate Point of Order, then Zazen wouldn't have been allowed to make any points until the original Point of Order had been disposed of, but since your dispute was with the content rather than procedural nature of the shotgun argument, it was out of order. Sorry.

As a side note, I'm not really a dick. It's just that when I was in student government in college, I was Parliamentarian, and I was also president of Model United Nations. When other people misuse RR, I damn well let them know it.
Sahandrian
Some of my players would prefer the katana, but I'd rather be dual-wielding some full Auto weapons. I prefer a FA-modified Uzi III, but the Steyr TMP works, too.
toturi
QUOTE (John Campbell)
One moment... let me adjust the emphasis on your quote more appropriately....

QUOTE
These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.


That's not exactly the hard and fast rule you're trying to make it out to be, is it?

I personally operate on the theory that the katana already has the two-handed Power bonus factored in, and allow use of it one-handed without the extra point of Power. Western bastard swords and other hand-and-a-half blades use the same stats and rules.

That's just my house rules, though... I suspect the nihophile fanboy bonus is the more accurate description of the motivation behind canon. That also explains the bo staff's nonsensical damage bonus, I think.

I believe my emphasis was appropriate since anything can be designated by a GM to be two handed. A penknife can be two handed, if so designated by a GM. The only in game keywords in that quote were Polearms and Reach of 2.
Arethusa
QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size @ Jun 5 2004, 04:05 PM)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 4 2004, 05:25 PM)
I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months

This explains much.

For the love of god, can you possibly grow up, you insufferable child? Must you jump at any opportunity to start a fight wherever possible? Do you think before you talk, or does this bullshit simply stumble out on its own? Is it within your capacity to please shut the fuck up with your obnoxious, inane drivel?

Exercise some self control and drop the ad hominem bullshit. You are completely fucking out of line, and I have had enough.

QUOTE (Number 6)
The katana is a two-handed weapon, you can do some stuff with it one handed but it negates all the benefits, incredible speed and cutting power. I take aikijutsu, which has some katana kata, and all the strikes are 2-handed. The Daikatana is a creation of fantasy video games based on the no-dachi, a larger, very rare, and less well-made katana. As mentioned the wakizashi was a ceremonial blade, or used as last-ditch defence when visiting someones home (where you typically left your katana at the door).

The length of a katana varied a bit based on the time period. During the era of the feuding clans katana blades, and their handles, were quite a bit longer. The reach helped you in mass battles and the longer handle gave you more torque on the cut. Later, Tokugawa and beyond, the blade and handle became shorter since a fast draw became more important if ambushed, and there were less wars.

Campbell is right, Musashi is far from revered in many Kenjutsu circles, then and now. The two-sword style was/is considered 'unfair' and disrespectful to the katana. Musashi's use of boken for most of his career came off as contemptuous of his opponents, again was an unfair advantage since it was lighter and therefore faster, and also was much more dangerous than the katana. A katana could cleanly sever a limb, leaving the samurai some years of life or at least a clean kill. Boken shatter bones, almost guaranteeing a slow, lingering death. Musashi was the original 'samurai' min-max munchkin, and was treated like it.

This is all real-life, I don't really know what the intentions were in-game.

That's not entirely correct. The nodachi is not a creation of videogames, as it was originally an anticavalry field weapon. Its use by single individuals as a personal weapon, however, is directly a result of bad videogames and anime. It was not simply a larger, shoddily produced katana.

As for longer tsuka being an issue with iaido, that's really not very true. It varied more because of fashion and personal taste (and, to some degree, need), but shorter tsuka reportedly don't help on drawing, and many iaido practitioners have done and do just fine with tsuka between 12" and 16". If anything, it helps in close quarters, where a longer weapon is a liability. Certainly, in a time period with little field combat, that could be a compelling factor.

As for Musashi, well, in a lot of ways, he was a very similar figure, in terms of philosophy and approach, to Bruce Lee. And both men take a lot of flak, despite being very well respected as revolutionaries.
toturi
Arethusa, relax. It would seem that RoUS is conducting a low intensity irritation campaign, going after him with a big hammer isn't going to work. Perhaps you could mirror image him?
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