Reagan. You know, he's a very debateable man. Some love him, some hate him. Economically he was terrible, quadrupling the national debt in 8 years (took a Democrat to balance that budget... but then we got another Republican in the office and there goes the budget again... sigh). He also hammered the heck out of public education. And yet, despite the senior Bush's claims, it was Reagan's policies that resulted in the collapse of the USSR, I'd say, breaking us out of the Cold War.
JaronK
Full Version: Ronald Reagan, SDI and Shadowrun
| QUOTE |
| Yes, all that crap. There is nothing to praise and little or nothing to respect. |
Yes I'd put your warped opinion (versus the proven facts stated) above the 99% of the US population that loves the guy. Yeah you got it all figured out.
Cutter, you realize that popular opinion can be wrong? Like, say, in 1933 in a certain famous European republic?
Should we now open a thread titled "Ray Charles, black music in the CAS and Shadowrun" ?
It would not be really that bad of an idea. Maybe we should do a NSI story about the ghost of Ray spotted in Nashville on the anniversary of his death. Or even better have a law suit between the Ray Charles Copyright holders and a musician that summons Ray's Ancestor spirit to help him write songs!
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| the 99% of the US population that loves the guy. |
You mean the 52% who approved of him on average over his presidency, a mere 4% over Nixon's average and 23% under Kennedy's? Or the 73% of people who liked him as a person during the end of his presidency, as compared to 89% for Johnson, 84% for Eisenhower, and 76% for Carter during comparable periods? That 99% of the US population?
~J
| QUOTE (Omega Skip) |
| My cousin (the archetypical physics major) once told me a very interesting way how the missile shields that are currently under developement could be rendered almost useless. I believe he got his inspiration mostly from "Metal Gear : Solid", but the numbers he showed me were pretty scary... Basically, what he was saying was that ICBMs are solid fuel rockets, and that current missile shield systems try to lock on to the missile's heat signature and maneuver the kill vehicle on a collision course. He told me was that if there was no heat signature, there'd be nothing for such a system to lock on to. Right now there's nothing that could just fling an ICBM across the Pacific or the Atlantic or any other considerable distance, but with maybe ten to twenty years of research and materials engineering, a magnetic rail accelerator (more commonly known as a railgun) could conceivably produce enough energy to throw a nuclear warhead far enough to come close to the ranges of modern ICBMs. |
A projectile traveling through atmosphere at sufficient velocities to describe an intercontinental ballistic arc will produce a detectable heat signature, regardless of propulsion method.
ICBMs are already ballistic missiles, anyway (that's what the "BM" stands for). The rocket only burns in the launch phase, imparting the initial velocity to get the missile to the target, after which it burns out and the warhead continues on its way in an unpowered ballistic arc. All your cousin's theory does is change the method of imparting that initial velocity... it affects nothing at all in the re-entry phase, where most of the SDI schemes, IIRC, are supposed to track and intercept it.
| QUOTE |
| Like I said, he then continued to tell me all sorts of things about how difficult it is to build an actual railgun (energy sources, materials for the rails, accidental welding, etc), let alone one powerful enough for this kind of action. But consider this: Germany is developing the Transrapid, a magnetic rail train using a very similar technology, one that could conceivably be converted for military use. Germany doesn't have nuclear capability, but China does. And Germany has exported Transrapid technology to China, where there's already a magnetic rail train commuting in Shanghai, I think. |
There's a significant difference between a maglev train and a railgun. Totally different technologies.
Railguns aren't all that hard to build, though. I know a couple people who've done it. Googling around a bit should turn up any number.
It's probably more the difficulty of building a railgun on that scale.
~J
~J
And making them both feasible, economically efficient, and tactically viable. There is a reason no one's really implemented them as a military weapon yet. We're years away from magnetic rail accelerators being naval weapons and we will never see them used as small arms, despite all those bad computer games.
| QUOTE |
| You mean the 52% who approved of him on average over his presidency, a mere 4% over Nixon's average and 23% under Kennedy's? Or the 73% of people who liked him as a person during the end of his presidency, as compared to 89% for Johnson, 84% for Eisenhower, and 76% for Carter during comparable periods? That 99% of the US population? |
99% today, not then. But you must be right, everyone and thier dog must be flying thier flags at half mast for someone else. After all his only use was to throw money away on national defense, which by your argument sounds like we haven't had an enemy is 50 years. If your not french already you should move to France, you'd fit right in.
BTW the amount of energy you'd need for a railgun that size would be alot less practical when just zerging more missle then our missle defense at the time could handle. It would also be more expensive and chances are the great force placed on a projectile that size would destroy anything inside. Lastly would be very very very easy to spot from spycraft in space. Overall its a pretty dumb idea.
And you get this number where? Do you work for Gallup? Do you have access to some other source of national polling data none of us do?
I'm curious, what is the deal with the French? Is there a reason everyone hates them? If so why? They lost to the Nazi's? So did just about everyone else. They dont like America? Uh...no one else likes America. Even our allies dont like us. I would really appreciate some sort of reason why this guy (Kagetenshi I presume) would "fit right in".
The French get made fun of ostensibly for two reasons:
1. They didn't lose to the Germans, they surrendered without a much of a fight. Never mind that this was the result of a major tactical blunder with the Maginot Line. Never mind years of Maquis sacrifice afterwards in aid of the Allied war effort.
2. They abandoned America's righteous crusade in the Middle East for oil interests. Those bastards!
Really, they're picked on because of their arrogance (undeniable; such is De Gaulle's worthless legacy, unfortuantely) and because they're an easy target for the ignorant. Not everyone hates them— only the same types of people who suggested 'bashing some rag heads' after 9/11.
1. They didn't lose to the Germans, they surrendered without a much of a fight. Never mind that this was the result of a major tactical blunder with the Maginot Line. Never mind years of Maquis sacrifice afterwards in aid of the Allied war effort.
2. They abandoned America's righteous crusade in the Middle East for oil interests. Those bastards!
Really, they're picked on because of their arrogance (undeniable; such is De Gaulle's worthless legacy, unfortuantely) and because they're an easy target for the ignorant. Not everyone hates them— only the same types of people who suggested 'bashing some rag heads' after 9/11.
The Junior Conservative Handbook clearly states on pg 3 paragraph 2 that all Americans love Reagan.
Cutter, respecting the position he held is not the same as loving the man. Also, 99% of America doesn't fly a flag so you might need a better gauge to use in your measurements. My flag isn't at half-staff, it is one you fly off your porch so I can't.
Cutter, respecting the position he held is not the same as loving the man. Also, 99% of America doesn't fly a flag so you might need a better gauge to use in your measurements. My flag isn't at half-staff, it is one you fly off your porch so I can't.
Alright thanks. Thats about what I figured, but it's nice to get second opinion.
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| 99% today, not then. But you must be right, everyone and thier dog must be flying thier flags at half mast for someone else. After all his only use was to throw money away on national defense, which by your argument sounds like we haven't had an enemy is 50 years. If your not french already you should move to France, you'd fit right in. |
Funny, the most common reaction I've observed (admittedly not indicative of the US in general) was to sing "ding, dong, the witch is dead" (yes, someone actually used that phrase). I'm not quite as extreme in my dislike for the man, but most of the flags I've seen are not at half mast.
As for France, I do fit in passably for someone who doesn't speak French. It's a nice place, still trying to learn how to make a proper crepe. My personal lineage, however, traces more to England, Scotland, and Germany.
And while I don't believe Arethusa's comment was directed at me, my numbers were from Gallup polls.
~J
| QUOTE (cutter07) |
| 99% today, not then. But you must be right, everyone and thier dog must be flying thier flags at half mast for someone else. After all his only use was to throw money away on national defense, which by your argument sounds like we haven't had an enemy is 50 years. If your not french already you should move to France, you'd fit right in. |
Funny, the most common reaction I've observed (admittedly not indicative of the US in general) was to sing "ding, dong, the witch is dead" (yes, someone actually used that phrase). I'm not quite as extreme in my dislike for the man, but most of the flags I've seen are not at half mast.
As for France, I do fit in passably for someone who doesn't speak French. It's a nice place, still trying to learn how to make a proper crepe. My personal lineage, however, traces more to England, Scotland, and Germany.
And while I don't believe Arethusa's comment was directed at me, my numbers were from Gallup polls.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| And while I don't believe Arethusa's comment was directed at me, my numbers were from Gallup polls. |
I was responding to Cutter07's comment that you belong in France. Sorry for the confusion. Man this gets confusing with all these different mini topics cropping up.
I knew you were. Arethusa challenged Cutter's numbers (I think) and I decided that that was probably a good time for me to show where I got mine.
~J
~J
Before any confusion gets out of hand, yes, my comment was directed at cutter's 99% of what I can only guess must be the 100 People, No Reagan Haters Allowed Club (We're Allowed to Have One!).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I knew you were. Arethusa challenged Cutter's numbers (I think) and I decided that that was probably a good time for me to show where I got mine. |
Ah well alright then. I guess I am just going to shut up for awhile then.
I'll go right ahead and say that I don't have gallup figures on hand, but I would definitely be willing to wager any day of the week that not 99% of the population loves Reagan, not 99% share his views, and even that less than 99% have any respect for the man whatsoever.
Given recent political polarization, I'd say that slightly less than half the country adamantly share his views, and about the same number adamantly oppose them.
I'm proud to say that I'm in the second group, and if you insist on telling me, Kagetenshi, or anyone else to go back to France because of their political views, Cutter, I'm going to have to ask you to find a time machine and go back to Stalinist Moscow, where that sort of behavior was acceptable.
Given recent political polarization, I'd say that slightly less than half the country adamantly share his views, and about the same number adamantly oppose them.
I'm proud to say that I'm in the second group, and if you insist on telling me, Kagetenshi, or anyone else to go back to France because of their political views, Cutter, I'm going to have to ask you to find a time machine and go back to Stalinist Moscow, where that sort of behavior was acceptable.
99% is rediculous, he was a contraversial president who's economic policies made hell for a lot of folks. At my graduation (rehearsal was tonight, I graduate college tomorrow) the speaker's comments about Reagan were funny as hell and certainly not praise... after all, it was a Theater graduation at a University of California, and Reagan's Policies as Governer and President still haunt the school today. Something like 94% of arts funding since he became president is now gone (and yes, I'll blame that one on him, since both Bushs have followed his policy lines), and it was directly his actions that resulted in massive tuition increases across the board at the UCs.
Most people don't like to take potshots at dead men, but the truth is that Reagan, while he did some nice stuff, also screwed a lot of stuff up in ways no other president has come close to (though the current Bush administration's budget policies are moving in that direction).
Now, it's easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight and criticize, but the truth is during his time the Soviet Union was scarey indeed, and many believed in both his policies towards them, and in the so called "Trickle Down Economics" that he believed in (though you have to wonder about a policy of "if we give a lot to the rich, it will help the poor more). Still, your 99% number is pulled right out your ass. No politician since Washington has come in with numbers like that. Even Kennedy after his assassination didn't pull in that.
JaronK
Most people don't like to take potshots at dead men, but the truth is that Reagan, while he did some nice stuff, also screwed a lot of stuff up in ways no other president has come close to (though the current Bush administration's budget policies are moving in that direction).
Now, it's easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight and criticize, but the truth is during his time the Soviet Union was scarey indeed, and many believed in both his policies towards them, and in the so called "Trickle Down Economics" that he believed in (though you have to wonder about a policy of "if we give a lot to the rich, it will help the poor more). Still, your 99% number is pulled right out your ass. No politician since Washington has come in with numbers like that. Even Kennedy after his assassination didn't pull in that.
JaronK
And, I might add, all that France bashing was childish at the beginning of the war, and looks REALLY stupid now, when we've been forced to admit they were right all along (their objection was that there wasn't adequate proof of WMDs in Iraq, and that unilateral manuevers by the US were a terrible idea. There weren't any WMDs, and now we're begging the UN to clean up our mess. Score one for the Parisians). I was deeply embarassed by the imbiciles who were supposed to be representing the American public when that whole "Freedom Fries" crap started. I can understand an uneducated fellow pulling a manuever like that, but when Senators pull that crap, it embarasses our country as a whole. I expect my senators to be dignified to some degree, regardless of their political orientation.
JaronK
JaronK
Not to nitpick, JaronK, because I agree with all your points completely, but
A) Washington didn't have 99% approval ratings
B) You listed two things the French were right about, it should be score TWO for them.
C) It was a member of the House that pulled the "Freedom Fries" crap. Bob Ney, MY congressman
Unfortunately, he ran unopposed.
A) Washington didn't have 99% approval ratings
B) You listed two things the French were right about, it should be score TWO for them.
C) It was a member of the House that pulled the "Freedom Fries" crap. Bob Ney, MY congressman
Unfortunately, he ran unopposed.
Well, Washington was elected with 100% of the electoral votes, so that's about as close as it comes (I believe Jefferson would have had a similar vote in, but one man voted against him, on the grounds that only Washington should have gotten 100%). That's why I listed him as the only one in the 99% range. Also, there are VERY few people who would seriously criticize Washington today, and Cutter was talking about current approval ratings, not approval ratings at the time of his term.
The one I was refering to was simply their opposition of United States action, which was what caused that whole freedom fry crap in the first place, as well as a sudden alarming trend, mostly among conservatives, to behave as though France was the new Nazi Germany or USSR. Yes, the French have a poor military record, but the French Resistance Fighters were extreamly brave and crucial to the war effort, and the French Revolution in many ways lead to the American one. Not to mention the Louisianna Purchase was rather helpful to America at the time, and it was sold extreamly cheap to us by the French.
And yeah, he was a house guy. Close enough really. He was your fault though? For shame! (Says the Californian with the "Gubernator")
JaronK
The one I was refering to was simply their opposition of United States action, which was what caused that whole freedom fry crap in the first place, as well as a sudden alarming trend, mostly among conservatives, to behave as though France was the new Nazi Germany or USSR. Yes, the French have a poor military record, but the French Resistance Fighters were extreamly brave and crucial to the war effort, and the French Revolution in many ways lead to the American one. Not to mention the Louisianna Purchase was rather helpful to America at the time, and it was sold extreamly cheap to us by the French.
And yeah, he was a house guy. Close enough really. He was your fault though? For shame! (Says the Californian with the "Gubernator")
JaronK
The Frensh Revolution started 12 years after the beginning of American and 7 after its end, but we can thank them for their support selfish that it was.
Sorry, I phrased that wrong. It should have been "the French support in many ways made the American Revolution possible, and the effects of the French Revolution helped make the American one a success in the long run, both by teaching us lessons about what directions not to go and by making Democracy/Republic a more generally accepted governmental type." But I was being lazy.
Not to go too far with this, but it's worth pointing out that we didn't really get the Louisian Purchase out of any sortof French benevolence. Napoleon was strapped for cash and had all this 'useless' land: boom, giant US. More an academic nitpick than anything significant, though.
I was just pointing it out so the kiddies here will not get confused. Some of us are old and have an excuse to be. 
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Not to go too far with this, but it's worth pointing out that we didn't really get the Louisian Purchase out of any sortof French benevolence. Napoleon was strapped for cash and had all this 'useless' land: boom, giant US. More an academic nitpick than anything significant, though. |
That and it more than halved the territory he needed to protect. Also he thought the French holdings in the Caribbean were enough and held similar strategic value.
And some of you are old enough to remember the signing.
Napoleon was being a politician... generous, but only so far as it supported his country. He wasn't supporting us by giving us a low price just because he thought we were cute, he was doing it to strengthen ties with the US, to screw England, to support his war effort, etc. It was still very helpful, and he could have tried for more cash.
And luckily, I'm young enough to still know everything.
JaronK
And luckily, I'm young enough to still know everything.
JaronK
*shakes head*
You guys crack me up....
Political "is so/is not" aside, no one mentioned the "damage shift" power for Horrors? Shame, shame...
As for damage codes, Austere Emancipator calculated some out for nukes.
You guys crack me up....
Political "is so/is not" aside, no one mentioned the "damage shift" power for Horrors? Shame, shame...
As for damage codes, Austere Emancipator calculated some out for nukes.
| QUOTE (cutter07) | ||
Gee like bluffing the CCCP from turning the US into a crater, strengthing our miltary (which Clinton undid), fixed the tax code for low-middle incomes, kept the oil trade flowing during the Iraq-Iran war, and practically striking the death blow to the Eastern Bloc? You mean all that "crap"?  Even the democratic party knows better then to speak his name in vain. |
It's controversial whether or not he killed the USSR. That idea seems to me as arrogant as saying that the US "lost" China in 1949, as if China were ever ours to lose.
I was only a little kid when Regan was president so I can't really address his legacy. But I know many people who really hated him, so obviously his legacy isn't entirely one-sided. When I read historical or political articles on him he sounds reckless and pro-rich-people.
Anyway, this is really off topic. Can we please stop bringing up Regan?
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Anyway, this is really off topic. Can we please stop bringing up Regan? |
At least until the Shedim thread.
-Siege
| QUOTE (KillaJ) |
| I'm curious, what is the deal with the French? Is there a reason everyone hates them? If so why? They lost to the Nazi's? So did just about everyone else. They dont like America? Uh...no one else likes America. Even our allies dont like us. I would really appreciate some sort of reason why this guy (Kagetenshi I presume) would "fit right in". |
I like how everyone convieniently forgets the French Resistance.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||
I like how everyone convieniently forgets the French Resistance. |
How is he forgetting the French Resistance?
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||||
How is he forgetting the French Resistance? -Siege |
No, not him. The people who make cowardly frenchman jokes.
Ahhh.
That's more stereotype than any real basis in fact. And, if pressed, most people making those jokes will admit it.
-Siege
That's more stereotype than any real basis in fact. And, if pressed, most people making those jokes will admit it.
-Siege
It's still boring to have your nationality insulted that way on a regular basis, no matter how stupid it stands, and more especially when a thread like Stealth Ships get locked for a lot less obvious issue.
Boring?
Tacky, tasteless and stupid might be closer to the truth. And Americans should have a better appreciation for that nuance, given our reputation overseas.
But unfortunately, maturity and common sense doesn't always apply.
-Siege
Tacky, tasteless and stupid might be closer to the truth. And Americans should have a better appreciation for that nuance, given our reputation overseas.
But unfortunately, maturity and common sense doesn't always apply.
-Siege
People were being very serious about hating the French like that, and it was stupid. Moral of the story: stereotypes spread like wildfire given half a chance, and hatred is a potent tool.
JaronK
JaronK
| QUOTE (Nath) |
| It's still boring to have your nationality insulted that way on a regular basis, no matter how stupid it stands, and more especially when a thread like Stealth Ships get locked for a lot less obvious issue. |
Well, maybe you know how Americans feel when they see their nationality insulted on a regular basis by everyone else, too. The French included.
Well, considering that most Europeans consider our country to be the largest threat to making sure I reach the supermarket in one piece, there may be something there.
Check out the first page. Yes, that's me who initiated the poll.
Yes, Americans make French and German jokes. OTOH, there a quite a few French people living in the student building who aren't as bad as the French as a whole are made out to be. They're people too.
Actually, I wonder if these sort of things make their way into Shadows of Europe. I do wonder if that books speaks to some degree about national pride, which is a large part of Europe (and a growing part of Germany, depending on who you speak with).
Don
Check out the first page. Yes, that's me who initiated the poll.
Yes, Americans make French and German jokes. OTOH, there a quite a few French people living in the student building who aren't as bad as the French as a whole are made out to be. They're people too.
Actually, I wonder if these sort of things make their way into Shadows of Europe. I do wonder if that books speaks to some degree about national pride, which is a large part of Europe (and a growing part of Germany, depending on who you speak with).
Don
Considering that Europeans are largely responsible for causing the Middle East to hate the western world.... well, it can just go back and forth. The simple fact is America is the only superpower at the moment, so they get the brunt of the world's hatred simply for that fact. I just think it's lame that people from other countries pout about because they receive the same kind of insults and snide jokes that their countrymen throw against Americans (not to mention the English).
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| I just think it's lame that people from other countries pout about because they receive the same kind of insults and snide jokes that their countrymen throw against Americans (not to mention the English). |
I use to find stupid critics of the United States boring too. Is being bored by human stupidity lame ?
Eh -- most of the Middle East hates the US for our continued and in some instances unreasoning support of Israel.
But if not for Bush's current foreign policy, the Irish would dislike the Brits, the Brits and French would mock each other and on and on and on.
Never mind Japanese tourists.
We just happen to have center stage at the moment.
-Siege
But if not for Bush's current foreign policy, the Irish would dislike the Brits, the Brits and French would mock each other and on and on and on.
Never mind Japanese tourists.
We just happen to have center stage at the moment.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Nath) | ||
I use to find stupid critics of the United States boring too. Is being bored by human stupidity lame ? |
Nah. But it would have come across better if you said so to begin with instead of just being bored/annoyed by a French stereotype. I think pretty much all negative stereotypes, while completely natural from a psychological point of view, suck. But it's just the way things are and I doubt if it'll ever change.
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| Considering that Europeans are largely responsible for causing the Middle East to hate the western world.... |
How do you figure? Last time I checked, it was the US and Britain who got that title... our little instalation in Iran of the Shah is one of the driving forces behind that hatred, and certainly the reasons for Iran's feelings toward us... the manuever we pulled during the Sr. Bush's term with Iraq and the whole "we won't do anything if you invade Kuwait... just kidding" thing is why Saddam hated us... we've definitely been a driving force in a few other countries too.
JaronK
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