Yo.

Had a report that there's a lot of pointless swearing here, and lo and behold, there is. Please try to keep it somewhat PG-13, folks. You can discuss adult issues without resorting to four letter words for emphasis.

Thank you.

Told.

Better to be small than be a big man who can't substansiate his arguments.

Um...I think that there needs to be an emoticon for dripping with sarcasm. Anyone have any ideas? On a completely related note does anyone else think that some folks take these discussions a little too seriously? This is a forum for discussing a fictional game right? Sometimes I can't shake the feeling that I have stumbled into some sort of online church or something.

You mean this isn't an online church? Damn, I thought I was reforming.

Killing may never be a good act, but it can be justifiable and sometimes even necessary. Rape, however, is a crime that specifically requires I derive pleasure from the suffering of another human being. Would I rather be raped than killed? Sure. Does that make a rapist who's never killed anyone better than a soldier? Hardly.

*shakes his head and tries to forget ever clicking the link*

One can say what one will about how sick and depraved the troll player is. But frankly, I would much prefer he get his craps and giggles playing a game with adults than committing the acts in real life. He may snigger and give one of those "Oh jeebus, that's AWFUL" laughs, like when you hear a really racist joke. But I really doubt he'd ever do something like that.

Keep in mind a lot of people get humor out of stuff like that not because they enjoy or relish the thought of such dirty deeds, but because the flat-out shock value inspires "Oh, no he didn't" laughter. Racist jokes again. It's a morally gray area, granted, whether we should be laughing in any way towards dark, sick stuff like that, but it's certainly not horribly repugnant or disgusting.

Then again, I don't know this player. I just hope that if the guy really IS that sick, then the GM has sense enough to take him out of the game and call the proper authorities.

Laughter is often an initial pyschological reaction to shock, pain, terror.
My favorite example is the SS during the 30s and 40s when they were killing Jews and undesirables (before the gas chambers, when they had to, amongst other things, shoot them). Often times they would be laughing, but while many people assumed they were just sadistic f*cks (which they were) it was also an involuntary reaction to the sheer insanity of gunning down unarmed civilians.

Which is why every scar on my body (along with the mental ones) has an accompanying laugh track. I happened to hit my head today pretty hard, and even though it hurt like a mother, my reaction consisted of laughing my ass off.

Go figure.

And murder is not even comparable to rape. Not even close.

The player is a cool guy. He doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't do drugs, doesn't steal, doesn't rape, and is generally an all-round nice guy. The CHARACTER he is PLAYING, however, is not a nice guy. His CHARACTER has his own set of morals which don't exactly match the rest of the world. His CHARACTER doesn't see the harm in killing people who deserve to be killed, locking up a girl in a room who has done far worse to other people, or other things we would find totally distasteful. The character does, however, feel that people who are "innocent" don't deserve such treatment. Please note these are the CHARACTER's motivations, morals, and actions and not the PLAYER's.

This, folks, is FICTION. In fiction, sometimes people do things that others would find distasteful. How many people think the scene with Mr. Blonde and the cop in RESERVOIR DOGS is a cool scene? Or "Sheperds we shall be, for Thee my Lord for Thee..."? Or "...and you will KNOW my name is the LORD when I lay My vengence upon thee!"? Or any of the things John Wayne or Clint Eastwood did in their movies? How about RoboCop? The novel Neuromancer? The comic book character The Punisher? How about the racist-spewing Ed Norton in AMERICAN HISTORY X? These aren't exactly good guys. That's why they're called anti-heros.

Remember folks, fictional violence good, real violence BAD. When you can't tell the difference between the two, then it's time to put the books away and start seeing a shrink.

The Abstruse One

PS. Since adding the gang girl to his "harem", he hasn't really brought her up at all. He's never said he's raped her, put her out on the street, or anything like that. He just has her locked in his basement.

I question is whether we have to swear at all on this forum. It's one of the major reasons why this forum is #3 out of the forums I visit (Peginc and Fanpro being #s 1 and 2).

Don

If it's a character thing and the player's not nuts, then it's fine, if your group can handle it. As far as gaming goes, that's not even that bad... take a look at some of the stuff White Wolf's world of darkness goes into and encourages on a regular basis.

That's why I consider WW WoD games a mostly crash course on tragedy method acting.

so anyway, food fight was fun for me too.

*post deleted*

Rule number 1. This is a fictional game.
Rule number 2. These are fictional characters.
Rule number 3. This is not real.
Rule number 4. This is roleplaying.
Rule number 5. You are not your character.



So put the rules together and what do you get? People pretending to do unreal stuff to make believe characters, for fun, and excitement, even if it may be perverse.

So what if his troll is a bastard.

Locking some gang girl in a basement is nothing compared to my entire group of sick weirdos.

They've used children(kidnapped from a shadow ops medical research center) as bartering chips with ghouls and a rival corporation to the previous.

They've brainwashed and enslaved nearly 20 people bought on a slave trade market to be used as pawns, soldiers, fodder, and manual labor. (I don't think anyone has openly said they've used them for anything sexual)

The Samurai with an explosive fetish once had a cat and a grenade with a remote detonator was sewn inside it by his own medical skills. He used it for an assassination tool of a middle management's wife and daughter.


PC: Ok, I got a plan they're going to find this cat. (insert evil chuckling) I snap it's back leg, and then drop it off outside their window.

GM(me): After a few minutes a few lights come on in the house, and the window opens. A little girl sticks her head out and sees the injured cat yowling for help. She wakes her mom up and they go to help the cat.

PC: I wait for it.... When they pick up the cat I press the detonator.

GM: You sick F*ck..... (rolls dice) The cat explodes killing them both, and you have the entire event on footage.


End story. There's always someone more sick and twisted out there than you. Don't bother trying to stop them, but if you don't like what they do. Don't look.

I agree with the last part of Arethusa's post.

But a professional intelligent runner, with a sick fetish could keep his 'dark secret' hidden from his group for quite a long time if they do it well.

My character would shoot the bastard that kept sex slaves. Work slaves are so much better. They even do windows.

Back to where we were before the mention of the troll...

There is a reason why Cyberzombies where robes and mumble things about eagles and spirits in my Tabletop games...

And a reason why combat mages where Hardened military armor with foot anchors built into the suit

I can't believe the enormous tangent that got created over the stupid troll character and his harem. The guy is just RPing his character. Who cares?

How do you convince the goons that this is a good idea?

Control manipulations.

So, how different is this troll from say, the local yak boss who runs a bunraku parlour staffed by girls yanked off the streets and forcibly implanted with the chipjacks and personality chips?

In no particular order (and with no accompanying quotes so odds are no one will have any flippin' idea what I'm referring to):

I always seek cover in a gunfight.

-------------------------------------------------------

Despite 13 years (off and on) playing Shadowrun, I never played or ran Food Fight. I did use the random crap table in a gunfight one time where a pc and a npc were in a gun battle in a yacht firing autoshotguns and assault rifles through a galley wall. That was kind fun until the boat started sinking (then it got real fun). I think I might have just seen The Adventures of Ford Fairlane.

-------------------------------------------------------

Maybe the troll has got some sort of Black Snake Moan thing going on.

-------------------------------------------------------

Its always fun jumping in on a 4 page topic. "Hey, Food Fight!" "Hey, Prison Rape!" There's no telling what its going to be about when you get to the end.

-------------------------------------------------------

I've always felt that how groups handle certain topics is best left to the group dynamic and to the individual players. Every group is different, every group has a different maturity threshold. There are groups I have played with that I would be comfortable exploring some pretty dark material, some I'd prefer we just kept it to initiative and roll to hits. I don't think there's any subject in the whole of human history that couldn't be included in a game if the players were capable of handling it with maturity and respect.

-------------------------------------------------------

I think I could save money buying nuts separately and mixing them at home.

-------------------------------------------------------

Gangers with SMG: 5 is a little excessive. One mutant that sleeps with his Ingram I can buy. A whole book club of them is pushing it.

-------------------------------------------------------

The moral complexity of Shadowrun (at least, as I have always played it, as compared to say TGTSNBN) is one of the things that keeps me coming back. I grok that, man. I really do. Paradoxically, I find it more challenging-- and therefore vastly more entertaining-- to play moral characters in a complex world. Some of my SR characters have been among the most "good guy" I've played. (And some have been real bastards.) And some of my good guys have done terrible things, and some of my bastards have had their odd moments of heroism.

My current character is an ex-con, ex-BTL addict samurai, who when the job came along, really latched onto the idea of saving a kid from organleggers. I even caught some flak from my group for being the sam who didn't shoot anybody because when we hit the chop shop, I went straight for the kid and got her out safely rather than engaging guards in firefights. In character, I said, "We get paid more to save the girl than we do to kill organleggers." But at the same time, sometimes its nice to do the right thing, even if it is kinda on accident.

Beyond the sex, rape in all forms is generally about the shifting power dynamic. The troll is effectively powerless against Mr Johnson, the next Mr Johnson, the corporations that back them, et al. Unable to cope with the sensation of being powerless, our troll decides that he needs to place himself in a position of power over others.

The rapist's need to find a place of power, unleash violence, and prove prowess and virility are all underlying causes in the overall damaged psyche. There are literally thousands of articles on this subject from a medical and psychological standpoint. If you don't have access to medical journals or a university library, try googling "Rape Power Dynamic".

Obviously not everyone who is screwed by a Johnson (wow, that sounds sick given our side discussion) is going to become a rapist. While the Shadows certainly attract a certain psychological profile, prone to violence and social disobedience, I find that most shadowrunners want to vent their agressions on the individual directly responsible for their position. Perhaps that comes from the players who are not in the actual position, and whom would prefer to kill someone who removed a notch of coolness from their character.

funny... The way I Gm, everybody has quickly learned to seek cover straight away when a firefight starts. And I am Gming SR4, with an ork sammy who rolls 22 dice resisting damage. Last session he took two shotgun shells in the chest and only got a stun wound. (the goon was shooting from behind cover and only got 1 net hit)

...OK this was a couple nights ago, but what I discovered, was having a well designed and described sculpted matrix can really mess with the team's decker's head.