Question:

If you layer more than two types of armor (if it's even possible). after the second highest number, should you still half the amount?

Example:

PC has Quickness 5

Secure Clothing (3/0)
Secure UltraVest (3/2)
Real Leather Jacket (0/2)

Do I ignore the fact that he has a Secure shirt on (only count the Vest and Jacket since one could wear both) and give him 3/3 (3+0/2+1) and only consider the Secure clothing if someone wants to do a called shot to his legs, or is all this layering possible and he has a 4/3 (3+1+0/2+1+0) with a +1 TN to Quickness rolls?

I'm wondering because I have a PC who thinks he can wear secure clothing underneath a jumpsuit and wear a Secure Long Coat over both and walk around with his Force 5 sustained Armor focus. Not counting the Clothing, this gives him 10/10 (I can buy wearing a jumpsuit and long coat, but clothing underneath?), and with clothing an 11/10. I know I'm harping over one point here and the TN penalty is gonna be big for him, but c'mon, this is getting ridiculous.

Help please.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you layer more than 2 pieces of armor, you walk around looking like a punching bag and that the third piece of armor (the one on the bottom) only adds 1/3 of it's rating. Am i imagining things?

EDIT: I just looked it up. Page 285 in SR3. Only add the rating of the top layer to half the rating of the next layer. I guess i WAS dreaming that thing about 1/3.

I believe you can only layer two items, but that some things like security helmets and riot shields can be stacked on too. I think form fitting armour has special rules in this department but I'm not sure. The best you can do with the basic book is heavy security armour with a helmet and large riot shield, with maybe a securetech ultra vest underneath (since I don't buy layering something other than a vest with security armour). The result is 7 (security armour) +1 (Helmet) + 2 (Large Riot Shield) + 1 (Half Ultra Vest) / 6 (security Armour) + 1 (Helmet) + 3 (Large Riot Shield) + 1 (Half Ultra Vest) = 11/11, before adding on spells. The force 5 armour spell would take it up to 16/16.

Note that the spell causes you to glow, which can be a serious problem. Also, your TN penalty would be 13 - quickness, which would be a killer.

JaronK

FFBA adds to the armor rating normally, but the points it adds don't count towards encumberance. If the FFBA puts your armor rating over your quickness, you don't get penalties because it's like spandex. It's so close-fitting you barely even notice it.

Page 51 in CC. FFBA doesn't count towards combat pool loss.

Some people interpret the rules to mean that only the highest two ratings count for layering, while others interpret them to mean that you take half of the rating for the second and subsequent pieces of armor. The latter explanation makes more logical sense to me, but opinion is very divided on the issue. Now, if you are the GM, and you don't like a lot of layering, then you might want to use the first interpretation (only the highest and second-highest rated layers count).

Note that the highest two ratings could be different for impact and ballistic. For your example of:

Secure Clothing (3/0)
Secure UltraVest (3/2)
Real Leather Jacket (0/2)

- The character would have 3 (highest) + 1 (3/2 for next-highest, rounded down) for 4 ballistic armor; and 2 (highest) + 1 (2/2 for next-highest) for 3 impact armor.



Some things to keep in mind:

Layering is plausible with things like form-fitting armor (underwear), a Sleeping Tiger line suit (clothing), and a secure jacket (outerwear). But things like trying to layer a secure jacket and a long coat, or secure clothing and an jumpsuit, will be more problematic. I guess it depends on whether you see the jumpsuit as being more like clothing, or more like outerwear.

Remember that none of this armor is hardened. If he gets shot with a Streetline Special, he still has to roll against 2 (the lowest a TN can get) L. If someone stages damage up to Deadly, he has to roll 8 net successes to stage it down to nothing. Ranged combat pits the attacker's skill and Combat Pool against the defender's Combat Pool and Body, so a high ballistic armor rating won't help you enough if your Combat Pool and Body are low. Excessive layering can whittle down your Combat Pool, and since this guy has a sustaining focus, I am assuming he is a mage, and doesn't have a super-high Body. So he is hardly the tank that he imagines himself to be.

Not only is the glowing aura of an armor spell the equivalent of wearing a bullseye on your chest (as far as drawing enemy fire, especially with the prevalent 'geek the mage first' mentality), but a sustaining focus will be a problem when you are in an area with wards. You either keep turning it on and off, or risk alerting the enemy mages when you smash through a ward with your active focus.

Also remember that the quickness penalty counts towards movement and every skill linked to quickness. How do you function with + 5 to all quickness skills AND -5 to your actual quickness. As far as clothing goes I only allow two items but remember, you can always add the cloak.

P.S. Also I believe nothing stacks with security armor. Could be wrong but I know you can wear nothing under it because it is custom tailored to fit like FFBA.

I think it's just military armour that specifically says you can't wear it with anything else. I'm sure you could wear FFBA with security armour if you want.

Zeel de Mort's right. It's military armor that's totally exlusive. I'll post a page number in a second.

EDIT: Page 51 in Cannon Companion

EDIT AGAIN: Security Armor is decribed in SR3, page 284. It doesn't say anything about not wearing any other armor with it.

If the Guy's using magic it's obvious he's not going to be using his pistol's skill, so the quickness penalty won't mean much as he can just burn his opponent's away with a Manaball (Will Linked).

I know of at least one person who built a character entirely around strength-linked skills (Heavy Weapons at long range, melee for close) so that he could pile on 40 points of ballistic armor on his cyberlimbs (+8 to total) and still layer armor like crazy, plus a riot shield. He had no Combat Pool at all and something like a +16 to quickness but since he used an Ingram Valiant and a Claymore it didn't mean a thing. And the cyberware added 4 to his Troll's Body so he got to throw almost 20 die against anything hitting him. The Fragger could casually soak his from an Assault Cannon.

40 points? What was he wearing?

You can actually hit 60 points of cyber-armor if you go all the way, 10 to each limb, and 10 to front and back Torso. That'll give you plus 12 to your armor rating although for some inexplicable reason cyberarmor adds to combat penalties even though FFBA doesn't.

Come to think of it if you use Ablative (Illegal at Chargen) you can get 60 doubled points of Armor and add 24 each Impact and Ballistic to your default Armor. Coupled with an Armor Spell and some nice basic Armor you could probably make a Tank for whom even APDS ammo is about as Effective as a thrown Tomatoe.

A Torso cannot support 20 points of armor. An obvious one only has 7 CF; 20 points (10 on front and back) is 10 CF, and that's assuming either Ballistic or Impact. An obvious skull can only support 4 points.

So assuming you somehow can miracously afford all of these limbs and all of that armor (in both Essence and nuyen) at character creation -- and somehow manage to make the cost actually worthwhile since all that armor is worhtless without a high Body to take advantage of it -- the most overall armor you can have is 11/0 or 0/11 or 6/5 or 5/6 or something in between depending on how you purchased the armor.

So yay, your max Ballistic armor is going to be about 17 (since you're now stuck at an overall Quickness of 4, so anything more will make you a walking target) with a Long Coat and Form-Fitting Body Armor. Maybe a bit more with a shield since that wouldn't be outrageous since you're already an idiotic character to begin with. Good for you. 'Course, the lowest an attack will get is a Power of 2, so a Light Pistol is now as deadly as a Panther Assault Cannon to you. Here's to hoping you managed to get a really, really high Body score so you could soak it up each and every time... 'cause you still need at least 8 dice to completely soak a 2D attack, plus match almost every successes your opponent makes.

And so to answer the questoin in the topic "How much is too much" there's no such thing as too much if you can still move

The slower a tank like that is, the easier he is to pelt with Great Dragons. (The projectiles, not the creatures... although he'd be helpless against them, too.)

The answer to the question is, of course, as much as you can layer without losing combat pool or incur Quickness penalties.

If the guy goes around with that much armor, have the enemies try to run him over with a Citymaster. He'll fail any kind of dodge test and get hit by the Citymaster. Even if he soaks all the collision damage you can have the Citymaster park on top of him and pin him under a wheel.

Ah yes, then it's batting practice time. Just make sure he can't do something irritatingly effective and levitate the van.

Don

If I see someone levitating a citymaster, I'm the frag outta there. That'd be, what, a +100 TN modifier? How much do those things weigh? The armor on them is 1250 kg alone.

Use anything that does naval damage. I hear sea sabers are effective.

I'd just pull out a pair of SMGs and launch four 9-round bursts at him and load it up with tracer rounds and just two regular rounds. Your TN will almost be guranteed to be 2, so almost all of your attack dice will be successes. He'll then have to soak four 2D+(successes) and he'll run out of Combat Pool pretty quickly unless he's stupid enough to rely solely on his Body to hold it off.

I wasn't aware you could use a laser sight when firing two weapons...

And wouldn't 9 rounds be full autofire? I mean, HV weapons can shoot 6 round bursts, but 9?

Nothing says you can, nothing says you can't. Ultimately, it's a GM call, just like Smartlinks and akimbo firearms. And, yes, 9 rounds, at least by canon, would have to be full auto. Don't know how you could throw out 9 round bursts, much less four of them, but that's at least not possible per canon, far as I know.

No, there is something that says you can't. You can't use any targeting devices when using two weapons. It's not a GM's call anymore than saying that you never suffer drain when casting a spell is.

About the bursts, I was a little stoned on pain killers when I wrote that. I intially had short bursts in mind then changed my mind to full-auto ones with tracers without changing the rest of the post. In any case, even a troll with Body 11 isn't going to be able to make 8+(however many you made) successes he needs to completely ignore the attack. Since he wasted all his funds and Essence on cyberlimbs and armor, he's not going to have much of anything else to rely on... and most implants that grant extra Body (Dermal Sheathes, Bone Lacing, etc.) are incomatible with more than two or three limbs if memory serves.

Let's see, four obvious limbs, an obvious torso, and an obvious cyberskull takes up 6.25 Essence and costs 425,000 nuyen. As alphaware, that's 5.00 Essence and 850,000 nuyen or 425,000 nuyen used. The ballistic (10 in each limb, 14 in the torso, 4 in the head) and ablative (10 in each limb) costs 425,000 nuyen on top of that. All for Quickness 4, Strength 4 (or as appropriate to race), and 11 points of Ballistic Armor.

Pretty much a waste considering a single capsule round can still take him down.

Yes, but tracers still only work at ranges beyond Short and they only give a single -1 TN mod.

Also I was thinking how you could put out 4 3-round bursts but forgot to edit.

Or as clarified in the Advanced Rules on page 94 of the Cannon Companion:

Oh, I'm sorry. We're talking Fantasy Land where characters get to have MilSpec armor, too.

Damn rewritten rules

Frankly, it's kind of stupid that you don't get the laser sight modifier if both weapons are firing at the same target.

Though "imaging systems" isn't very specific. It doesn't really preclude cybernetic vision magnification, because if it did, the same logic would inidcate that you couldn't use cybernetic thermo or low light when using two guns.

Well, if it precludes imaging scopes, it should preclude vision magnification since they're essentially the same thing. The rules even refer to imaging scopes.

"Imaging systems" is a specific type of weapon accessory. Vision mag works "in the same manner" as a specific type of imaging system. Thermo and low light work in a manner that is the exact same as the imaging systems of the same name. I'd have no problem with a GM call that you can't use cybernetic vision mag, but I think there's a case for ruling the other way, as well.

The rules on two weapons are already so bad that there is virtually no reason to ever use them. The rule might as well be "you can have a gun in each hand, but you can't fire both as one action". Since if you're dumb enough to do it for a foe beyond your short range, you're probably going to just generate two misses.

Well, considering all the other examples they included (and they were just inclusions, not an all-encompassing list), I'm sure they intended vision magnification to be one of them. Mechanically and descriptively, they're identical to the scopes... just one's a cybernetic version while the other isn't. Notice how they also listed both smartgun links and goggles, too.

That's not my point. My point is that reading immediately leads to the same arguments being equally valid for thermographic vision which is something I'm assuming everyone pretty much believes should work, reguardless of the number of weapons you're firing. The list doesn't specificly preclude any cybernetic vision systems for the simple reason that it doesn't say anything about them. It's a pretty logical step to disallow the vision mag, but that same logic step can also be used for disallowing other vision mods which I'm guessing most people think should apply. Which really just bats it back to a GM call.

Gotcha. I still think the context is pretty clear; anything that modifies the actual target number via technology is right out. Range finders, laser sights, and imaginag scopes are all included there. Thermographic vision and other visual mods, while they do come into play, aren't really modifying a targeting modifier but a general vision modifier that applies outside of shooting someone.

But I do see where you're going. I'm just a firm believer in going with the context instead of the literal word.

Another way to look at it is that modifiers which are very specific to one weapon (smartlinks and range finders are, sort of) can't modify the target numbet since two weapons are firing. Imaging systems don't work because they're right there on top of the gun and you'd have to look through two scopes at once to get the bonuses. A global vision modifier, such as that provided by cybernetic vision may or may not fall under the umbrella of what isn't allowed, by GM fiat

As I understood it, the reason that you could not apply targeting mods to two weapons is because when you are firing two weapons at different targets, you are not so much aiming the weapons with your eyes but pointing them. Aiming a gun at one point requires a decent amount of concentration that doesn't work with more than one gun. Try focusing on two seperate spots at once - it doesn't work. However, it wouldn't be as bad if both guns were aimed at the same target. I'm tempted to houserule that some but not necessarily all image mods work with two guns only when both are aimed at the same target...

If you want to fire two weapons at once do this:

1)Get a cybernetic finger extension for your trigger finger giving you like, an extra inch or two of reach. Alternatively, you could superglue a piece of flat metal to the underside of your trigger finger.

You could also be a troll.

2)Take two SMGs and superglue them together.

3) Cut off the trigger guard

4) Make up an edge called Ham Fisted That gives you really big hands, and make sure your character has it. If you are a troll, ignore this.

5) grab, aim, fire.

You could fire both weapons at once, be able to aim through a scope on one (the weapons are going to be shooting at basically the same area so it won't matter very much TN wise), and with the fact that you can have two gas vent IV's, a natural strength of 12+ using strength boosting cyber/bioware, and two underbarrel weights you get a grand recoil modification of 12, giving you 4 bursts without any recoil whatsoever.

You'd also get 4 10S shots if you you the Ingram with 7M base damage and no FA mode.

Far as I'm concerned this is all canon because your dual SMGs would technically be two weapons but also qualify as one really big fraggin' weapon.

And for my on-topic portion of this post...

For the walking armored tank, have him fall down a man-hole.

Also, have him conveniently trip over a branch (with the Quickness penalties he'll surely fail) and fall face first on a on a freeze foam mine filled with knock-off freeze foam that works the same, but just isn't porous enough to allow breathing. Oops. Sorry buddy, looks like you just died in an embarassing way. But cheer up, we can always melt you down for scrap or use you as a battering ram.

And can't you just have the mage just bug zap his brain?

That's the funny thing about most munchkins. Not only do they create characters with glaring weaknesses, they can't even metagame properly. They work the character for the best numbers, winding up with a crazy-quilt background of fractured logic to (attempt to) explain it. But they don't metagame enough... they don't think through what the actual in-game advantages will be. If you min-max to the point of cheesiness, you tempt the GM to respond with an equal amount of cheesiness, either out of vindictiveness, a desperation to salvage their campaign balance, or a desire to "challenge" the character. If you're good beyond a certain point, all you do is cause the opposition to increase along with you. It's better to be really good at something, and well-rounded in a few other areas, than to be totally unstoppable in one area.


But as I pointed out, this guy is hardly a tank. It would be more fun (and humiliating) to have a few gangers with Streetline Specials take him down than to break out the Panther Cannons and Citymasters.


One quibble on tracer ammo - the TN bonuses are cumulative, so a 10-round full-auto burst with 3 tracer rounds in it would have -3 TN.

Ah yes, I'd thought of the hidden life trick. Unfortunately that grants you regeneration, which could be problematic with all that cyberware..

Quickened/tattooed armour spell would work though, it's not like such a character would be subtle.

A nasty combo would be an adept who is either a serviteur or the recipient of a spirit's Hidden Life power, in a suit of heavy hardened military armor (including helmet). Add 11/11 to twice Essense (which would be even nastier if it was a shapeshifter adept, although most 'shifters would probably be too claustrophobic in military armor), and keep in mind that it's all hardened armor. The only thing worse that I can think of would be a great dragon who was the recipient of a spirit's Hidden Life power.

I've never been able to figure out why FFBA comes with no penalties, due it's it's great close fit, while armor that's actually built into your body somehow carries a hefty penalty.