Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shapeshifter Adepts
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
WalkerUrza
Hey, could someone explain to me why it was ruled that shifted shapeshifters can't use adept powers?
Namergon
I think the reason would be that their adept powers are linked to their human form.
Personally, I think something is wrong with this rule, partly because the magician shapeshifter can still summon spirits and cast spells in animal form. As a GM, I think I would houserule the following:
- when learning a power, an adept shapeshifter must state in which form it works.
- for each power, the adept shapeshifter can buy an "option" or "extra" that reflects that the shapeshifter trained himself to use this power also in the other form. Maybe the cost would be 25% of the original cost of the power.
- If the adept shapeshifter had taken a geas option on this power, the geas is now applicable on the use of the power in both forms. If the adept doesn't want to have a geas option in one of his forms, he has to fully re-learn/buy the power (full cost).
- The GM would have final say on which powers can believably (sp?) be learn in animal form. Also, maybe some (new?) powers could be used to accomplish things an animal form wouldn't be able normally (like speaking, or using tools).
WalkerUrza
But it's the same spirit as it were, it's all the same essence, what the book has done was say, Shapeshifters are all mages, because a shifter adept is impossable. Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still... I mean things like quick draw as a say an tiger shapeshifter doesn't make sense...but improved ability brawling *specialized in claws or bites* would... With my group it's a house rule that all powers work in shifted form, but if the form can't physically use or do the power then... your SOL... but yeah...
toturi
I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too.
Mr.Platinum
I know Shapeshifters can cast spells in there Doggy form, that sif your making a Physical mage, since we are on the topic of adepts.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too.

Er? News to me.
shadd4d
Check out the 3rd ed companion. It states they heal stun. The example is a magician recovering from drain.

Don
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too.

Say it with me,

QUOTE
It ain't dead till you take the head.


-Siege
booklord
I believe the part you're refering to is how fast a shapeshifter can recover from physical damage caused by drain.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 14 2004, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE
Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too.

Say it with me,

QUOTE
It ain't dead till you take the head.


-Siege

Amen to that.

In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage.

Merry Christmas.

Whil you're making your PC's have nightmares about this, Vampires regenerate, and are no longer dual natured. They also now permanently add their essence to all their physical attributes. Their "Enhanced Physical attributes" poiwer doesn't have a uses per day or a duration, it's always on. Time to kick the living piss out of someone, Vampy style. They also show a much higher chance to be magically active. Regenrating vampire physads, Welcome to your nightmare.
Misfit Toy
It's one of those rules I always ignore. Always. Because it's simply ludicrous. Shapeshifters are naturally animals. If adept powers were limited to any form, it should be their animal form, not the mockery they can transform into.

You just have to accept the fact that the designers apparently smoke a lot of crack or something... and things start to make more sense.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Misfit Toy)
It's one of those rules I always ignore. Always. Because it's simply ludicrous. Shapeshifters are naturally animals. If adept powers were limited to any form, it should be their animal form, not the mockery they can transform into.

You just have to accept the fact that the designers apparently smoke a lot of crack or something... and things start to make more sense.

I pretty much agree with you totally, [articularly like you said, animal IS their natural form.
WalkerUrza
Yeah it's a rule that my group ignores too, but still... It's annoying as all hell when you go to a site that *doesn't* ignore that rule... I guess it's time to start doing a lot of convincing and badgering untill he gives in mabey? *snickers*
Siege
I'd argue that a bimorph doesn't have a true form, per se.

Shapeshifting is what the creature does -- it may lack social skils and knowledge associated with humans, but the (skill? Spell? Ability?) is inherent and natural.

Of course, I may read Terry Pratchett too much...

-Siege
Joker9125
QUOTE
In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage.


That is a rule my group ignors completely. the ability to regenerate stun damage is way to munchy. Seriously that in itself combined with thier normal powers would make them horribly overpowered and nearly unbeatable.

Personally I would rule that they dont regenerate stun damage for game balance purposes.

QUOTE
I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous.


Since inproved reflexes isnt compatable with any other form of magic or cyberware that does the same thing I would rule that improved reflexes wouldnt work with the animal form it would have to work with human form only. If nothing else but for game balance.

House ruleing that all(or most adept powers work in animal form) and allowing shapeshifters to regenerate stun creates the most munchkin of all character types

So by some of the rules ive seen tus far you could create a starting character like this

Tiger SS physical mage earth elementalist
In animal form

Body 7(edge bonus attribute point body)
Quickness 6
Stregnth 6
Charisma 2
Intilligence 5
Willpower 6

Skills
sorcery 6
Brawling 5

Psyad powers are
4 points of magical power geases so it only works in animal form
Improved reflexes 2 with the talisma geas of an earring
counterstrike lvl 2 with talisma earring geas as well

so now we have a mage that can throw around force 4 elemental manip spells with a constant 13 dice and regenerate the stun damage at the end of every combat turn, has a pretty good body and with a decent armor spell sustained can take alot of damaghe down to L and can regenerate nearly any physical damage done to him (except having his head cut off) and on top of that he has 5 INI Die so he will go before most if not everyone else he is facing. Raises hands in air in frustration at the munchkinness of this. Heaven help the GM if this character gets even 30k and 20 or so karma. Surely I am not the only one that sees any type of problem with this?

Yes i do realize he will be facing alot of moifiers from drain and whatever physical damage he takes during that turn and large groupes of people and nukes will still kill him but that is true for any character, but he still has a HUGE and I mean HUGE advantage over a normal munchkin mage mage or munchkin street sam.

P.S. not sure if the totem modifiers for an earth elementalist would work with a pysical mage
BitBasher
The earring geas is a bit of an impossibility to pull off since you can't get a piercing. You regenerate.

Drain does not follow normal regeneration rules, stun or not, it comes back at a box per minute.

No, I don't see a problem with this. Shapeshifters, like ghouls and metavariants are Optional Rules. Decline the option if you think it's too mucnhy, because in most games it is. Regenerating creatures work best as NPC's or in specialty games where everyone is paranormal.

Worse is an NPC Vampire. A nice adept vamp can wear a LOT more armor than a PC can because his quickness will be in the 13-23 range if his essence is full, *not* counting adept powers, and his body and str can be in the 13-23 range as well. Add in his 4x running multiplier, and the fact that astrally you cannot see a single thing wrong with him unless you spend an action to percieve, unlike the shapeshifter that looks like an animal astrally. The vamp can get the same 5d6 initiative. And by canon, the vamp can have cyberware as long as it was implanted before he was infected. See DNA/DOA for reference, the character "Nemesis". The rules that allowed this have never been contradicted in later books. THAT's horrific.
KillaJ
A little off topic, but could anyone tell me where the rules are for a vampire npc?
Zeel De Mort
p46 of Critters, which you get when you buy the GM screen.
KillaJ
Much obliged.
Zazen
QUOTE (Joker9125)
QUOTE
I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous.


Since inproved reflexes isnt compatable with any other form of magic or cyberware that does the same thing I would rule that improved reflexes wouldnt work with the animal form it would have to work with human form only. If nothing else but for game balance.

Glyph likes to point out a more compelling reason that this is powerful: shifters use Reaction for attacks in their animal form. Giving them level 3 Increased Reflexes is giving them +6 melee dice.
WalkerUrza
*BOOM* and the question is still not answered for me *pouts*

Oh well, Short of being able to talk to the people behind the rules, I can't actually get a straight answer... Speculation and house rules are all nice and all, but it'd be usefull to know the *real* reason behind how the rules are.
BitBasher
We already stated there is no good reason. It's like asking if a tree falls in the forset with noone to hear it makes any noise. There's no right answer.
Glyph
It's like asking what the point is of giving 'shifters an Essense of 8, when their starting Magic rating is still 6, and they can't get cyberware. Not much point to it. It makes sense for their NPC counterparts, though (since they add it to their physical Attributes in animal form). But that gets into yet another of my old rants about shapeshifters - how I hate it when there is one set of stats for NPCs, and one for PCs.
Cochise
QUOTE (shadd4d)
Check out the 3rd ed companion. It states they heal stun. The example is a magician recovering from drain.

Don

*huh?* Must have missed that one ... Care to quote?

Whether or not stun is regenerated is always heavily discussed ... just as the question whether or not regeneration only kicks in upon reaching (physical) deadly *Text can be interpreted that way*
Cochise
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Drain does not follow normal regeneration rules, stun or not, it comes back at a box per minute.


Wrong ... physical Drain is regenerated at 1 box per minute ... There's no mentioning normal Drain. And that's one of the major points that usually leads to the big discussion about regenerating Stun Damage, since this point can be taken as argument for and against healing Stun.
WalkerUrza
*quoted right out of SR companion*

Regeneraion:

Shapeshifter characters regenerate in roughly the wsame manner as shapershifter critters (see the rules on p. 13, Critters)

Regeneration makes shapeshifters virtually immune to death from injury. unless they suffer massive amounts of damage or damage to the brain or spinal cord.

Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules. If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn.

Wapon foci can permanently slay shapeshifter characters. If a shapeshifter takes a Deadly damage from a weapon focus, or damage from a weapon focus pushes the creature into the Deadly rage on the condition monitor, the shapeshifter must make an Essence Test with a target number equal to twice the Force of the focus. If the shapeshifter achieves no successes on this test, the character automatically dies. Even 1 success allows the shapeshifter to make the Regeneraton Test as above.

A shapeshifter magician who survives Deadly damage must still check for magic loss per standard rules. Additionally shapeshifter magicians regenerate the Physical damage caused by spellcasting Drain at a rate of 1 Damage box per minute. If a shapeshifter takes Deadly Phyical damage from Drain, the player chareacter rolls 1D6; the character does not regenerate on a result of 1 or 2.

Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3)

Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form.

Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons.
Tyron
Back in my earlier years of Shadowrun GMing, and before I knew the rules that well, I had a munchkin player in my Harlequin's Back game whom insisted on playing a Tiger Shapeshifter adept, with Killing Hands at Deadly. After trying to persuade him away from that character, I finally gave in because I just wanted to start the bloody game.

After seeing the carnage that character wrought, I understand perfectly why that rule is in place(I wish I would have known about it back when I was running that game sarcastic.gif ).

Cochise
QUOTE
*quoted right out of SR companion*


Thank you wink.gif
Now let's see where the problems lie biggrin.gif
Note: I'm not necessarily using these rules as I'm going to show now, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be interpreted in several ways.

QUOTE
Regeneration makes shapeshifters virtually immune to death from injury.


This refers to death from injury and not mere unconciousness due to "deadly" stun.

QUOTE
not unless they suffer massive amounts of damage or damage to the brain or spinal cord.


Albeit being an interesting flavour information, this is normally of no importance for the damage system, since SR combat usually doesn't provide detailed info on what you actually hit, but it indicates a connection to a specific type of damage (physical in this case).

QUOTE
Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules. If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn.


Now this is the interesting part. First of all note that there actually is no reference towards Stun Damage, which some people take as indictaion, that Stun can be healed.
However you have to note as well, that this paragraph only deals with regeneration upon hitting deadly physical damage and nothing else. First we learn that shifters have to roll a die when getting to D physical. Then we learn that when massive tissue damage is involved die die result changes.
Finally we learn that any other result (and this appears to refer to the die roll) the damage vanishes. So this paragraph says nothing (and I mean nothing) about automatically regenerating physical damage below D level. It doesn't deal with Stun either and it doesn't say that shifters cannot be k.o.ed ...

Just to be sure, let's have a look at two other quotes .. One from Critters and one from SR3:

QUOTE (Critters @ page 13, Regeneration)
A creature with the Regeneration power cannot be killed by any damage except that which injures spine or brain.


Again, nice fluff, but it also indicates that the damage we're talking about is physical in nature ...

QUOTE (Critters @ page 14, Regeneration continued)
Check for this type of damage whenever the creature takes Deadly damage or its cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condidtion monitor. To determine whether a creature dies from Deadly damage, roll 1D6. A result of 1 indicates that the creature is indeed dead. If the damage is from weapons that cause massive tissue damage (fire, an explosion, and so on), the creatues dies on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result the creature suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn


Yes, there's no explicit distinction between damage types here (no "physical" or "stun" before damage), but if you really want to take that as indication that stun can be healed, that also means that any shifter who's knocked out, will have to do his regen-roll and can be killed if he fails.
But then there's the same reference to tissue damage in the next sentence as in SRComp. And yet again "For any other result" the shifter regenerates. That doesn't deal with wounds below D level either ...

Now for the SR3 quote:
QUOTE (p. 126 SR3 @ Healing Stun Damage)
No medical treatment really helps to recover Stun Damage, nor does any magical spell currently knowm to man


O.k. This doesn't say that Stun couldn't eventually be healed by other magical sources (as the critter power), but it indicates that Stun isn't healable except when resting and you'd normally expect an explicit mentioning somewhere, if that really was the case. None of the above sources said something like that.

QUOTE
A shapeshifter magician who survives Deadly damage must still check for magic loss per standard rules. Additionally shapeshifter magicians regenerate the Physical damage caused by spellcasting Drain at a rate of 1 Damage box per minute. If a shapeshifter takes Deadly Phyical damage from Drain, the player chareacter rolls 1D6; the character does not regenerate on a result of 1 or 2.


Now this as paragraph that actually includes all damage level below physical deadly, since it exlicitly says that physical Drain is regenerated at the rate of 1 box per level. But again no mentioning of normal Drain (=Stun)


Conclusion: Unless we get an Errata on that one, it's still highly debatable whether or not Stun can be healed via Regeneration.
Since the rules only deal with Regeneration upon reaching D physical, it's even doubtful that physical damage on lower levels is really regenerated (as most groups that I know of handle it).
Glyph
Most people believe that Deadly damage is detailed as the exception to the general rule - in other words, it is the only time when a 'shifter might possibly not regenerate. Otherwise, it seems kind of illogical for a being with rapid healing to be able to fully heal Deadly damage but not heal lesser damage. It would make sense if it only turned damage from Deadly to, say, Serious. But they heal completely. Yet if they take a Serious wound, it doesn't heal? I don't think so.


The problem with disallowing stun damage to regenerate is that it makes regeneration too easy to circumvent for everyone. My personal house ruling is that stun damage from things like blunt trauma, tasers, or gas regenerate like other physical damage, but stun damage from fatique or spellcasting Drain regenerates at the same slower rate given for regenerating physical Drain. Strictly by the rules, though, all stun damage regenerates. If something that is explicitly stated in a previous edition is not explicitly stated in the new edition, then I generally assume it to mean that it is no longer the case.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Since the rules only deal with Regeneration upon reaching D physical, it's even doubtful that physical damage on lower levels is really regenerated (as most groups that I know of handle it).
Not exactly. The rules only deal with regeneration NOT happening upon reaching D physical. Hence the last line of that paragraph... "For any other result...the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn."

Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result"
Cochise
QUOTE (Cain)
Most people believe that Deadly damage is detailed as the exception to the general rule - in other words, it is the only time when a 'shifter might possibly not regenerate.


I'm aware of that. Still the above presented interpretation is possible.

QUOTE
Otherwise, it seems kind of illogical for a being with rapid healing to be able to fully heal Deadly damage but not heal lesser damage.


The question there would rather be: Does Regeneration only kick in when the creatures life is really threatened? It's still a somewhat "magical" trait. And magic doesn't necessarily behave "logical" ...

QUOTE
It would make sense if it only turned damage from Deadly to, say, Serious.  But they heal completely.  Yet if they take a Serious wound, it doesn't heal?  I don't think so.


see above ...

QUOTE
The problem with disallowing stun damage to regenerate is that it makes regeneration too easy to circumvent for everyone.  My personal house ruling is that stun damage from things like blunt trauma, tasers, or gas regenerate like other physical damage, but stun damage from fatique or spellcasting Drain regenerates at the same slower rate given for regenerating physical Drain.


A very common solution ...

QUOTE
Strictly by the rules, though, all stun damage regenerates.


"Strictly" by the rules? Reread what I have presented wink.gif

QUOTE
If something that is explicitly stated in a previous edition is not explicitly stated in the new edition, then I generally assume it to mean that it is no longer the case.


You simply interpret it that way ... biggrin.gif

________________________________

QUOTE (BitBasher)
Not exactly. The rules only deal with regeneration NOT happening upon reaching D physical.

Still wrong, since it doesn't state anywhere that regeneration does occur before reaching D level. This paragraph deals with what happens at D level: The creature may or may not regenerate.

QUOTE
Hence the last line of that paragraph... "For any other result...the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn."

Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result"


The problem there: "For any other result" => What result? The only thing in that paragraph that actually has some sort of a "result" is that die roll.
Have a look again:

QUOTE
Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6.


Simple Do-When- instruction. Limited to the occurance of reaching D level.

QUOTE
On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules.


First reference to result of die roll (not the injury!)

QUOTE
If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2.


Second reference to result of die roll under special circumstances.

QUOTE
For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn.


Third reference to the result of the die roll ... => Sorry, that paragraph still doesn't really deal with damage below D level.
toturi
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
Since the rules only deal with Regeneration upon reaching D physical, it's even doubtful that physical damage on lower levels is really regenerated (as most groups that I know of handle it).
Not exactly. The rules only deal with regeneration NOT happening upon reaching D physical. Hence the last line of that paragraph... "For any other result...the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn."

Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result"

The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes".
CoalHeart
Just knock the shifter out and use the three seconds to jam it's mouth full of C-12 and stand back as you detonate it.


I think that counts as massive brain trauma.


Also You shuold be able to do a called shot for the head of a shifter to do localized damage to the soft squishy gray matter.

I don't know. I haven't had a problem with players against shifters so far. But I generally don't allow anyone to play as one.
Zazen
QUOTE
The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes".


The "any other result" mentioned there is referring to the die roll, though. You don't roll a die for non-deadly damage.
toturi
The "any other result" is any other result whether it is a Light/Medium/Serious Wound or a 1 or 2 from a Deadly Wound.
Misfit Toy
When it comes down to it, it's retarded to argue that plugging a shapeshifter full of holes with a full burst from a HMG will disappear at the end of the turn, but clubbing one with a baseball bat leaves him for dead. Argue the semantics of the exact wording all you like (because we all know how wonderfully worded the rules are to begin with). It won't change the stupidity of the argument.
Cochise
QUOTE (toturi)
The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes".


I'm perfectly aware of what BitBasher tried to say there. I have responded accordingly and showed that this "basis" is non-existant.

QUOTE (toturi)
The "any other result" is any other result whether it is a Light/Medium/Serious Wound or a 1 or 2 from a Deadly Wound.


Sorry, but are you trying to tell me that the third use of the term "result" suddenly includes a reference to something that the whole paragraph didn't deal with?

Taking a wound (of any level) is the result of a fully resolved attack (skill test, dodging where applicable and damage resistance). But the whole paragraph doesn't deal with that "result". It only deals with a situation where this "result" is already fact and then provides a rule with a result of its own (rolling a die). This new result is referenced exactly three times. Where would that sudden change of reference come from? Exactly! Nowhere, except when you start interpreting something into that actually is not part of what the whole paragraph deals with.

_______________________

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)
When it comes down to it, it's retarded to argue that plugging a shapeshifter full of holes with a full burst from a HMG will disappear at the end of the turn, but clubbing one with a baseball bat leaves him for dead.


Interestingly enough no one suggested something like that wink.gif
The primary suggestion is that shifters can be knocked unconcious as anyone else can be.
The secondary suggestion is, that even physical damage doesn't automatically vanish. It only vanishes under certain conditions. And that condition has something to to with taking Deadly physical Damage.
Btw. it's not very polite to suggest that people are retarted because they argue something. So I'd suggest that you quit doing that ...

QUOTE
Argue the semantics of the exact wording all you like


Huh? People are trying to argue with "what (official) canon says". So arguing the semantics is a necessity

QUOTE
(because we all know how wonderfully worded the rules are to begin with).


Actually the wording in question is extremly precise ...

QUOTE
It won't change the stupidity of the argument.


The argument as such isn't stupid ... and as with the reference to being "retarded": This is uncalled for ...
Misfit Toy
I never said people were retarded or stupid, I said the argument was. And it is. And it will continue to be so.
Cochise
QUOTE (Misfit Toy)
I never said people were retarded or stupid, I said the argument was.

Who's trying to argue with semantics now wink.gif
There isn't much difference between suggesting that certain arguments are "retarded" or "stupid" and directly saying that ther person voicing them is retarded / stupid.
It's more or less impossible to make a stupid / retarded argument without being stupid / retarded.

QUOTE
And it is.  And it will continue to be so.


You'd have to prove that claim ... Which you can't biggrin.gif
Misfit Toy
The fact that you can't tell the difference between having a stupid argument and being stupid pretty much says it all when it comes to arguing over semantics.
Cochise
QUOTE (Misfit Toy)
The fact that you can't tell the difference between having a stupid argument and being stupid pretty much says it all when it comes to arguing over semantics.

And that would be what? *eg*
I didn't say that I cannot tell the difference between "having" ( what you seem to consider) "a stupid argument" and "being stupid" wink.gif
I said that accusing others of leading such an argument as equally insulting as directly saying "you're stupid".
And that's a "semantic" difference wink.gif
BitBasher
The basis of my view is that the paragraph does not deal with when regeneration works, it deals with when regeneration foes NOT work. Unless the curcumstances in that paragraph are met, then regenration removes all the damage at the beginning of the next turn.

The paragraph basically tells us that unless damage meets or exceeds deadly AND the roll to regenerate fails, then in all other cases the damage is wholly removed at the beginning of the next turn. It tells us the specific cicrumstances in which regeneration does not work, and they are clearly laid out. If those specific conditions are not met then the regeneration does not fail.

The whole paragraph deals with the result of what happens when a regeneration roll is failed.
Apathy
Ok, I have a stupid question:

When he regenerates after being blown into various sized bits, what happens to all the spare parts? You chop off an arm and throw it out the window; three seconds later he has an arm again, but isn't there still a severed arm lying on the street outside?

This creates a possiblity for solving world hunger: Capture a cow shifter, tie it up, get dikoted chainsaw and remove an infinite number of flanks until the village is full. It's the ultimate sustainable resource!

The truly evil GM could allow each of the pieces to grow back into a full creature: PC-I hit him with the ATGM
GM-rolls some die...you hit him and he blows into a thousand pieces.
GM-rolls some more die...unfortunately for you, he makes his regeneration roll, and 1000 new very angry shifters grow from the various pieces

Of course, this would be silly, but what should happen? Since the shifter's limbs magically grow back, should the severed magically disappear when that happens?
Siege
Insofar as I am aware, they have not defined what happens to spare parts left over from a regenerating character.

It would be a hell of a catch for an organ-legger to capture a regenerationg creature and harvest it for spare parts to sell...

-Siege
Nikoli
If the parts are compatible with metahumanity.
LaughingTiger
I've always looked at like a scene from the very, very, very bad 80's movie "monster squad" or something similar.

They shoved dynamite down the wolfman's pants and blew him into a billion pieces. There was a gory pause, then the pieces all rolled towards each other, remaking the wolfman. Whatever wasn't splattered all over the alleyway, I'm assuming, was regenerated.

Need silver dynamite.
Cochise
QUOTE (BitBasher)
The basis of my view is that the paragraph does not deal with when regeneration works, it deals with when regeneration foes NOT work.


One doesn't go without the other. If that assumption is correct I'll now demand the canon reference that tells us how regeneration works on Stund and physical wounds below D level ...

QUOTE
Unless the curcumstances in that paragraph are met, then regenration removes all the damage at the beginning of the next turn.


Give me quote where it says so ...

QUOTE
The paragraph basically tells us that unless damage meets or exceeds deadly AND the roll to regenerate fails, then in all other cases the damage is wholly removed at the beginning of the next turn.


I still cannot read that anywhere in said paragraph. All I see is the reference towards the die roll result.

QUOTE
It tells us the specific cicrumstances in which regeneration does not work, and they are clearly laid out.

Oh, the sentence you initially took very explicity says when regeneration does actually work: For any other result than 1 / 1,2 /depending on circumstances).

QUOTE
If those specific conditions are not met then the regeneration does not fail.


Yet another part I'd like to see quoted ...

QUOTE
The whole paragraph deals with the result of what happens when a regeneration roll is failed.


That's still incorrect. No matter how often you repeat it ... sorry ...

ShadowGhost
QUOTE (Joker9125)
Tiger SS physical mage earth elementalist
In animal form

Body 7(edge bonus attribute point body)
Quickness 6
Stregnth 6
Charisma 2
Intilligence 5
Willpower 6

Skills
sorcery 6
Brawling 5


One thing it looks like you're leaving out is that Shadpeshifters have to have two sets of Physical Attributes - Points must be assigned separately to human form physical attributes and animal form attributes. This character has already used 23 points, over the limit of 21 for Magician/Adept shapeshifter, and leaving human physical attributes at 1,1,1, for Body, Strength, and Quickness, after Shapeshifter racial bonuses.


This means Shapeshifters have *nine* attributes:

Charisma
Intelligence
Willpower (mental stats)

Body (human)
Strength (human)
Quickness (human)

Body (animal)
Strength (animal)
Quickness (animal)

Meaning to have one point in each attribute (before Shapeshifter form bonuses)you have to spend 9 points on attributes, leaving 12 points left over if the shapeshifter is a magic user of any kind.

Since Priority A must be assigned to resources, which is set at 5,000, this means you have 27 points for attributes (Priority B) to assign to your *nine* attributes; or if awakened (Priority B), then you have only *21* points to allocate to your *nine* attributes, as you take Priority D for attributes.

This helps balance out the extra powers that a shapeshifter has.
Apathy
QUOTE
Give me quote where it says so ...

I hope I'm not mis-quoting either one of you, but I don't think BitBasher's saying that his opinion is specifically stated in canon. I thought he indicated that the wording is sufficiently vague that it could be interpreted either way, and that his interpretation might make sense given the context of the overall uber-ness of regeneration.

To summarize (in spoiler to save space):
[ Spoiler ]


I personally hate the 'all or nothing-ness' of the regeneration rules. By Cochise's interpretation, Vamps and Shifters aren't much of a threat - you can drop 'em with a single stunbolt and be finished before the end of a combat turn. On the other hand BitBasher's interpretation makes them pretty much invulnerable.

A few options for home-rules:
1. Any regenerating creature needs to also list a vulnerability (silver, wood, whatever). Any damage done with that vulnerability have a 50% of not regenerating.
-or-
2. Creature rolls for regeneration every phase it has damage using (essence)D6 against TN4 (modified by wound modifiers, massive trauma, weapon foci, etc.). Each success represents one box of physical or stun recovered at the end of that phase.
-or-
3. Same as #2, but also make regenerating a complex action, so the critter has to break off combat/run away while healing.
-or-
4. Vamps have to drain essence to regenerate (requiring a successful attack), and shifters have to shift out of animal form and back into it again to regenerate (requiring 1 or 2 complex actions).
-or-
5. Creature spends their essence to regenerate, gaining 3 or 4 boxes on their condition monitor for every point of essence they give up. Essence lost this way is recovered at the same rate as essence lost by projecting mages.

Anybody have alternate suggestions?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012