Full Version: do lasers have recoil?
| QUOTE | ||
Plastic will need the exact same levels as flesh, the two share much in common for purposes of lasers. Ceramic... I don't know. Lasers put the energy at the surface, which with metals is ok due to the explosion and fire, but with ceramic that doesn't happen. We use ceramic blocks to absorb the beam when we have to cut something thin that requires a heavy beam power. When we've finished the job we go over and wipe the black scars off the surface, which are totally undamaged. However, we also run water through the blocks (which would not stop the beam from blasting metals that absorbed it). |
In other words, you deal with low powered lasers that do not generate armor defeating effects comparable to SR lasers.
How much more power do you need to get those effects? How much energy per unit time will cause any armor to ablate in such a way to injure the meat below it?
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| In other words, you deal with low powered lasers that do not generate armor defeating effects comparable to SR lasers. |
I've said that since the very first time we talked about this.
| QUOTE |
| How much more power do you need to get those effects? How much energy per unit time will cause any armor to ablate in such a way to injure the meat below it? |
I don't know. It's not just about power, it's about frequency, absorbency, vapor, melt, and reaction. It's about not destroying your resonator chamber, mirrors, or blowing up the air before it hits the target.
Here my current thinking. Use multiple resonator chambers that all aim at the same point (and have a center HeNe that does the auto focus and provides a laser target). You wouldn't have to worry about the air exploding or resonator damage (unless you get the lens dirty or knock out the alignment - but let's not go there). You could even use multiple frequencies then to optimize the materials it damages.
My understanding is that SR lasers are not anti-vehicular (even the Firelance), so ceramic penetration isn't the biggest issue in my mind.
SR lasers are, indeed, not AV.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| My understanding is that SR lasers are not anti-vehicular (even the Firelance), so ceramic penetration isn't the biggest issue in my mind. |
They ignore ballistic armor and halve impact armor - including the ceramic hides of military grade armor or ceramic trauma plates of other armors. Not AV per se, but more armor piercing than APDS.
The Ares Redline Laser Pistol has a Damage Code of 12M at Short range. Since it is not AV, it penetrates slightly better than a FMJ HMG round. Thus we'd expect it to eat right through at least 1cm of RHS at 5 meters. The Heavy Laser Plus has a DC of 18M, thus it should penetrate as well as light cannon non-AP rounds, ie at least 1" RHS at 150 meters.
Since the Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser is not AV either and only does 15S, it penetrates less at short ranges than the Heavy Laser Plus.
Since the Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser is not AV either and only does 15S, it penetrates less at short ranges than the Heavy Laser Plus.
You should be able to create an armor modification that uses crystal "plates" made from something similar to solid state lasers such as Nd or sapphire only impregnated with molecules that refract the beam and scatter it over a larger area, thus reducing the effective power. I have to look at the armor customization rules to make something reasonable, but for a few hundred thousand nuyen you could essentially defeat the armor piercing effect. It would probably degrade rather quickly, as well.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| what would the utility be, snowRaven? i can't see any advantage to that, off-hand. |
Well, by using a reverse coil on the firing rod, I was hoping to significantly reduce recoil. If you build the first gun into a second coil and apply the power in a precisely calculated way, maybe you could even eliminate recoil entirely on a pure gauss gun.
As for speeding up a regular bullet using a coil - to acheive a higher speed with a smaller gauss gun, thus making manportable weapons of this kind pack a higher punch.
Basically it was just a mental exercise though =D
So, anyone? I'm especially interested in the twin coil system.
outer coil pushing the inner coil forward, after the inner coil is pushed backwards when launching the projectile. If it's possible to match the acceleration of the two, they should remain more or less stationary. (I assume that the magnetic fields would interfere with each other if the coils were actually overlapping, so imagine a system like this:
-----------------:______----------------- <--- recoil dampening coil
gauss gun coil ::::::::::::::rod::::: ---> pushing in this direction from recoil
-----------------:______-----------------
the two solid lines is were the gap between the coils are, along with the firing and loading system.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Aug 26 2004, 11:27 PM) |
| You should be able to create an armor modification that uses crystal "plates" made from something similar to solid state lasers such as Nd or sapphire only impregnated with molecules that refract the beam and scatter it over a larger area, thus reducing the effective power. I have to look at the armor customization rules to make something reasonable, but for a few hundred thousand nuyen you could essentially defeat the armor piercing effect. It would probably degrade rather quickly, as well. |
Not quite the laser ablative armor I was thinking of, but same effect.
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| Well, by using a reverse coil on the firing rod, I was hoping to significantly reduce recoil. If you build the first gun into a second coil and apply the power in a precisely calculated way, maybe you could even eliminate recoil entirely on a pure gauss gun. |
No, the second coil would just kick the gun back harder - it would be ejecting the inner coil, producing another outward moving projectile to compensate for.
If it was that easy, gunpowder weapons could get out of recoil by using two powder charges - one to propel the bullet, one to cancel the recoil. But that doesn't happen, does it?
To minimize recoil effects, just draw out the application period of the recoil. Give the recoiling barrel some room to travel while being damped by springs, hydraulic pistons, friction, etc., stretching out the time over which the recoil is applied.
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| outer coil pushing the inner coil forward, after the inner coil is pushed backwards when launching the projectile. |
To expand on my last post...
What does the outer coil push against when it moves forward against the inner coil?
The outer coil might cancel the inner coil's movement, but the outer coil had to apply an equal and opposite amount of effort against something else to achieve that. For example, it might thrust against the weapon's user's hand and body.
You can use the outer coil as a replacement for a hydraulic piston or other recoil absorbtion mechanism, which works by soaking recoil over a period of time, but you won't make recoil disappear.
You can negate recoil with a second barrel, it just requires firing two identical shots in precisely opposite directions at the exact same moment. Not fun for the squad behind you.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| You can negate recoil with a second barrel, it just requires firing two identical shots in precisely opposite directions at the exact same moment. Not fun for the squad behind you. |
Excellent point.
With a very large weapon, the barrel (coils and all) and large parts of the firing mechanism could be on rails inside the outer shell and another set of coils. Normally it would be locked forward, with maybe 50cm of rails to move on towards the rear of the weapon. On firing, the recoil would push it back on the rails, initially causing very little recoil on the outer shell. Then the coils would start decelerating it and pushing it back forwards, spreading the recoil over some fraction of a second, making it perhaps slightly more comfortable.
However, you could obviously get the exact same effect with a set of springs or something else significantly lower-tech (and way cheaper), and you're making the gun significantly heavier and bulkier. The G11 basically operates sort of like this, and to an extent bolts on recoil-operated weapons, slides on pistols and a whole bunch of very basic parts of firearms have the same effect.
However, you could obviously get the exact same effect with a set of springs or something else significantly lower-tech (and way cheaper), and you're making the gun significantly heavier and bulkier. The G11 basically operates sort of like this, and to an extent bolts on recoil-operated weapons, slides on pistols and a whole bunch of very basic parts of firearms have the same effect.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| With a very large weapon, the barrel (coils and all) and large parts of the firing mechanism could be on rails inside the outer shell and another set of coils. Normally it would be locked forward, with maybe 50cm of rails to move on towards the rear of the weapon. On firing, the recoil would push it back on the rails, initially causing very little recoil on the outer shell. Then the coils would start decelerating it and pushing it back forwards, spreading the recoil over some fraction of a second, making it perhaps slightly more comfortable. |
So you're basically talking about a field artillery carriage, here?
| QUOTE (Req) |
| So you're basically talking about a field artillery carriage, here? |
Austere also mentioned the G11. Here's a digram of the H&K G11 assault rifle. The mechanism "floated" inside the frame - the recoil didn't hammer directly into the soldier's shoulder, but was first damped as it slid back inside the frame.
http://www.hkpro.com/image/g11recoil.jpg
Here's how the G11 worked in action ('Real' video):
http://www.hkpro.com/video/g11-3-80.rm
Windows Media Player:
http://www.hkpro.com/video/g11-3-128.mpg
Overall webpage:
http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
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