This board. I think the thread got locked eventually.

~J

Holy Christ, but that's an amusing thread.

It is an interesting thread. Have to say I agree with AH in that I always felt that, except for a point or two, Aina worked better as Hecate than Alachia.

And Usmondo still baffles the heck out of me. I really can't imagine Dunklezahn having invited a Heavenherd to the discussion, nor could I imagine a Heavenherd, former Blood Wood Elves, and a Great Dragon all having a nice chat. Also, Usmondo's comments don't really match ones that would come from a Heavenherd in Azania. At the same time, he doesn't appear to work for Mujaji, since he mentions a rivalry with the Rain Queen. So, that leaves me baffled as to what he represents, unless the "Watchers" just keep an eye on what is going on down there.

For Usmondo, try Mynbruje.

No. Well, probably not.

That's what you kept saying to Alachia as Hecate.

Wait I know! Why don't each of you write a list or support your cases in some way that is meaningful?! That would be so cool, if you're up for the challenge that is...

For Hecate, or for Umsondo?

Well, since we've done Hecate at least fifty times and had an offical answer and since Tenebris just brought up Hecate to invalidate you, why not Umsondo?

Okay. For my case, I present the fact that Umsondo has no textual references to Mynbruje, Questors, Questors of Mynbruje, or the like. At the very best, one could point out that Umsondo bears at least a superficially similiar appearence to an impartial mediator among those at the Aztlan Conference, which I submit is inconclusive evidence.

Invalid -- for there is no direct textual reference to Alachia in that context either.

I build my case on tone and on respondents, and on manner of response ... but it will have to be on a section by section basis. Give me until tomorrow?

Granted. State your case no later than 11:59:59 PST Wednesday, September 1st, 002004.

~J, insufferable since forever

Alachia has the backing support of being mentioned in other places in Shadowrun canon, and the word of Lou Prosperi. I will await your response, but I repeat that at best the appearence is superficial.

Ona side note: Hell, we can't even proove Alachia, that's why there's a debate!

Another Passion has also been mentioned in SR canon -- and that, temporally just before the Aztlan file.

Vestrial was never mentioned by name, and some people still dispute that.

Vestrial, the mad Passion? The one that talks to Harlequin?

Wait, are you saying Mynbruje is a Passion? Using the Matrix!

ミンブルユ

The dragon does. Mynbruje is specifically noted in Earthdawn as being able to move from mind to mind. And I notice I didn't have to name the other Passion.

Edit: I'd never thought to write a Passion's name in katakana before

I'm not suggesting it could not use the Matrix, just that Avatars and Totems using it is a fearsome thought...

The first site receive when I Googled Mynbruje was Earthdawn Japan.

Last note for today: Aztlan was also the sourcebook with the first hints of the otaku, before Denver was released.

Didn't Denver and Aztlan come out nearly at the same time? With Denver just before it?

Aztlan and Denver were both released pretty close together, I remember that -- and the product number for Denver is 7212, while Aztlan is 7213....although that is probably more to do with when they were started, rather than when they were finally published.

I could swear I bought Denver in the fall, and Aztlan came out earlier in the following year right after Nigel died (Feb. 95-96),

Just got word from my peeps. Here's what they have to say:

High Tech and Low-Life, or another book?

~J

That's the one I have a stack of.

Not sure. That would be my guess (unless there's another poorly selling SR artbook out there).

A pity, that was a decent book.

~J

Oops -- I guess you're right, Kanada Ten, as to order of release: I always get thrown by that teasing otaku reference in the back, and reverse them.

Anyway, here's the first part of what you asked for: Aztlan pp.12-13, annotated. I've still got to transcribe one hell of a lot of handwritten notes to get the rest of it up. I'll get all the in-page links working as soon as I can -- Internet cut out again today and right now everything but that page is a mess. Even the Mynbruje page is still missing some important items. If you feel it's worth starting up a new thread for, go ahead.

Oh, the Overview's not up yet either. It's really only to summarise the assumptions I'm making, so here they are:

Big D, Wordsmyth, Laughing Man - obvious
Lady of the Court - Brane Deigh
Hecate - Alachia

These are more speculative:
Umsondo - Mynbruje
Jungle Cat - Awakened jaguar, but what else? possibly questor of Jaspree?

Mynbruje, shmynbruje. The Watcher is clearly Bahl'al, Mad Goat of the Fens.

~J

Tenebris: I hate to say it, but that background is awful. It's hurting my eyes.

But remarkably, when I had WebDeveloper remove the bg, the page is actually worse.

Highlight the text that you're reading -- it makes it tolerable.

I'll wait 'til you're done for a rebuttal. If it makes your typing any easier, copy and past the actual transcript quotes from here.

Appreciate the offer, Ancient History, but I've had that for years -- needed it for my own referencing. It's the editing of the notes into something generally legible that's taking the time.

Anyway, I've cleaned up the first part a bit, and gotten some more written, including that overview. Sorry about the background: I'd completely forgotten I was fire-toning it. For now I just skipped the background and went one-colour ... and that defines the full extent of my html skills.

Overview
Extended introductory annotations
Part 1 of in-text annotations

Oh, and I also got the Mynbruje page somewhat cleaned up, although it is still missing the Questor Powers.

I'm sick and might not be on to debate this later, so I'm saving a few things for when you're done.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of Umsondo as Mynbruje either, but the idea that Umsondo is Azanian still leaves a lot of questions too. We know that the Heavenherds exist in Azania, and are elven, and are most likely led by immortal elves (all this comes from Cybertechnology).

If Umsondo is an immortal elf, and is a Heavenherd, I can't imagine him being invited to the Aztlan discussion, at least not without more fireworks. None of the other people involved in the discussion are friends of the Therans, and most were downright enemies of the Therans (Dunkelzahn certainly has no lost love for the Heavenherds). While fireworks do hop around during the Aztlan discussion, no barbs are ever aimed Umsondo's way, which would be odd if he were a representative of what would basically have been the main enemy (aside from the Horrors) of everyone present. But, who knows, maybe the Heavenherds have mellowed out over time. That is possible, given that Cybertechnology mentioned that the Heavenherds can perform cybermancy, but do not, and are only interested in the pure knowledge of knowing and possible act to stop others from performing it.

But we're still left wondering what the Watchers are and what exactly they are watching. And more importantly, where their loyalties lie, assuming they are loyal to anyone or anything besides themselves. Are the Watchers just Heavenherds that were leftover from the collapse of Thera?

The phrase used is “The Watcher”, not “A Watcher” or “one of the Watchers”. I see nothing indicating that there is more than one.

~J

But there is something that implies there could be more than one. It's in the exchange about Domingo Ramos.

Umsondo seems to be a neutral third party. There's insufficient evidence to point to him conclusively as a Heavenherd elf, but he's probably affiliated somehow. My guess is he runs interference between Mujaji and the Heavenherds, keeping the peace (and the nation) together. But that's just a guess.

When Alachia came to power in the Blood Wood, a certain faction (using Messias as a cover or excuse) left the Wood, and eventually formed Thera. They're a legitimate power (the Heavenherds and Therans managed to kill four great dragons, after all), so I think they rate in on a meeting.

Hell, Ehran and Lady of the Court manage to remain civil, and the Two Tirs have no love spared for each other. The Therans are just another branch on the old family tree.

[/edit] The Watchers might keep an eye on "trouble areas," Ramos would be in the position to know what AZT's up to (as was Dunkie), but may not be able to do too much about it. If he is a Watcher.

Inconclusive, as people still refer to things like “Another Nixon” or “Another Vietnam” without necessarily meaning it literally. However, I do concede the plausibility now; guess I hadn’t read that section closely enough.

~J

Yah, I share the same two likely theories that AH has.

1) The "Watchers" are remnants of the Theran Heavenherds. Particularly ones that were posted at Thera's far-flung outposts when Thera collapsed (Araucania and Aznan, aka Amazonia/Aztlan and Azania). They survived because they were so far from the chaos. The reason that Domingo Ramos is floated as a possible Watcher is because it wouldn't be unreasonable to think some survived in South America if some did survive in South Africa.

2) The "Watchers" are immortals assigned to keep an eye on potential trouble spots related to the Fourth World. Umsondo, in this case, would appear to be keeping an eye on Mujaji and the Heavenherds in Azania. Ramos would be suggested as possibly being a Watcher keeping an eye on Aztlan.

Answers to the questions/comments in AH's spoiler. They were extensive, so I just decided to give them their own webpage: and thus include objections right in with the theory.

A few more points elaborated on the existing pages. Sorry, I keep finding notes and references.

I'm typing as fast as I can! Regardless, this has to be done within two weeks!

Nitpick on that most recent posting, Tenebris:

Absense of positive evidence actually does mean that you are forced to assume the negative, scientifically speaking. While it is true that a lack of evidence does not *prove* that something is not the case, it tends not to be a good idea to cling to ideas for which there exist no evidence. I mean, I could propose that theres an invisible demon sitting next to me poking me with an incorporeal trident and using magic to obscure all known means of detection - and you couldnt *prove* that he isn't there. The fact that you can't prove the contrary does not make it a reasonable assertion, however.

True, and fair enough. I probably should have specified "solely", to parallel the specification in the original point I was answering ("there's no evidence that points to Umsondo as Mynbruje simply from respect"), and added that positive evidence does in fact exist: that's what the main slab of commentary is for. Would that work for you?

I also had added one part to that particular comment in which negative evidence exists to suggest disproving of a different hypothesis: that USMONDO is an immortal elf. Sigh - that's what happens when typing, updating, and reading are happening simultaneously.

Again, sorry about the previous background.