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Lucyfersam
I've got to agree with Seige, the concept of Johnson's suddenly getting all paniced because they're working with magically active people seems a bit extreme. A Johnson usually meets with an entire team anyway, which almost invariably includes some awakened people, and they haven't gotten paranoid and run away yet.

I also see no reason why it would be any more obvious when a social adept is using his powers than a combat adept. DE, I would be interested to hear your reasoning and what/why you would consider to be an appropriate way to have them work.
mfb
i would have them work this way, myself (first three powers below Under Discussion).
Demonseed Elite
I always have a cap. The cap varies on the job, though, and how desperate the employer is. Tripling a fee isn't likely to ever happen in any of my games; chances are, before a Johnson even got close to that, they'd start offering different incentives (corpscrip, stock, gear discounts, favors, etc.). And at some point, the Johnson is going to realize he could get someone else to do the job for cheaper, most likely. A smart face doesn't push their luck too far.

I also would like to add that I don't see anything wrong with IA: Negotiations, and I don't mind if that makes the book, as long as it's handled well. Just as I'd consider a Physical Adept with IA: Athletics to be getting an edge from a magically-infused physique, I'd consider a Social Adept with IA: Negotiation to be getting an edge from a magically-infused empathic sense. It doesn't necessarily make him better at the job than a mundane face who has a higher Negotiation because he had more skill points to work with.

Nor is a Johnson necessarily going to be off-put because he's dealing with a Social Adept face. He may not even know, as has been mentioned. But Johnsons don't allow themselves to get continuously "ripped off" on deals. Either they wise up because it's coming out of their cut (if the Johnson takes his cut out of the employer's offer) or they get replaced by their employers, who are sick of paying increased rates for their jobs (if the Johnson makes a set fee/salary). If one particular face is making his job difficult, and he looks into that face's background and finds out he's dealing with a Social Adept, he may be averse to dealing with that person in the future, feeling he's getting magically manipulated.
Siege
DE's got a point in some respects - effective mundane faces have one benefit.

They don't suffer from Social interaction penalties associated with cyber-junkies.

Social adepts will bypass the cyber penalty and be that much "er" than their mundane, non-cybered compatriots in one-trick effectiveness.

Mundane faces will make up the difference in construction - they will still have one less cost to calculate for in the character creation stage. Which translates into more money or skills or stats.

And mundane Faces don't have to worry about magic loss or registering as magical on Astral scans - "geek the mage" is a fairly generic response if nobody wants to take the time to identify what kind of magic the PC has.

And fair is fair, I'm pretty sure corps will make a point to start hiring Social Adepts to handle difficult negotiations, like those with pesky shadowrunner teams.

-Siege
Demonseed Elite
In my games, any Johnson who knew he was negotiating with a Social Adept would qualify in the "Suspicious" category (+2 to TN) on the Social Modifiers Table on page 94 of SR3, because he'd be suspicous of just what kind of mojo might be influencing him. Granted, he'd have to know he was dealing with someone magical first, but some Johnsons do their homework first, have people watch for that sort of thing, or look into it if they find themselves on the short end of too many commissions.

This is assuming the Johnson isn't a long-standing social acquaintance of the runners. If he were, he'd know in advance what he's dealing with, and likely factors it in before negotiating prices with the employer (corp, organization, what have you).

And there are some Johnsons and some jobs you wouldn't want to be caught dead using an adept to negotiate for you. Not everyone is magic-tolerant. Mandatory magic registration and licensing is still a hot topic in many places for a reason.

So, thinking as a group, which would be better? On one hand, you could have a Social Adept Face with 6 Negotation, 6 Street Etiquette, and maybe +2 IA in both (which is a decent chunk of his Magic Rating points, I'm sure). He'll be good, but he's also lacking skills/money/attributes compared to a mundane face, and he could make a Johnson who knows he's a Social Adept edgy, resulting in a +2 to the Negotations/Street Etiquette TNs. And some Johnsons might flat-out refuse to deal with him if they learn he's a Social Adept.

Or you could have the mundane face who has 6 Negotiation and 6 Street Etiquette and a bunch of other skills. He won't have as many dice at his disposal for the test, but he's far less likely to make any Johnson edgy, he's more versatile in who will deal with him, he doesn't have to worry about maintaining his Essence/Magic Rating, etc. If Mr. Johnson has someone scan him, he's going to show up as Mr. Joe Shadowrunner, with no special alarms being set off, no reason to be on edge.

Both have their benefits, but I wouldn't say either makes the other obsolete.
Drain Brain
I'm waiting for the player argument that goes: "My character is a Face and an adept, but he doesn't know that he's magically active!"
Siege
I'll have to wait and look at the description in the book.

I still find it difficult to believe adepts are going to be broken into categories - physical, social etc. Enough to the point a Johnson would recognize and be suspicious of a Social adept over a Physical adept versus some sort of Aspected wizzer, mage or shaman.

-Siege
Siege
DE already hit that one Brain. grinbig.gif

All it takes is an Astral scan from a suspicious Johnson to tip the runner's hand, at least until he can learn how to Mask.

And depending on how the reputation rules work, that history may or may not follow the runner around.

Otherwise, yes - if the target of the Negotiations doesn't know the adept is, in fact, an adept, (s)he wouldn't have any reason to be suspicious, above and beyond dealing with vile criminal scum.

-Siege
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
I still find it difficult to believe adepts are going to be broken into categories - physical, social etc. Enough to the point a Johnson would recognize and be suspicious of a Social adept over a Physical adept versus some sort of Aspected wizzer, mage or shaman.


No, I don't think they will be explicitly categorized or anything. It's more about a Johnson doing their homework. Most professional "street Johnsons" deal with groups they know, and would know the person is a Social Adept, most likely. Most professional "corporate Johnsons" will do their homework first, digging into a group's background before hiring them, in which case it might show up that the adept has magically-enhanced social skills (which would be part of the reason he's hiring the group to begin with, but that doesn't mean he won't be suspicious of dealing with them).

Johnsons don't really hire from a blank slate, they base their choices on runners' reputations, which usually also includes what they do.
Drain Brain
Nuts... My bad...

I must confess though, I'm not as concerned about this as I am about the other things - what you might call "fluff." I am eagerly awaiting all the path expansion and other, more "theoretical" data we are due to receive. That's going to be the interesting bit, methinks. Also, seeing what in the way of powers have come out of the work of the various personages hereabouts, if any.
Siege
DE - how would a "social adept" be easily identified as being any different from a physical adept?

With hermetics and shamans, there is a clear and easy distinction. Either you have a Totem mask or you don't, although this doesn't inherently prevent a hermetic from faking a Totem's mask. (interesting mental note)

Unless social adepts are going to be a (sorry) "class" unto themselves, a social adept isn't going to be any different from a physical adept. Or how would you classify an adept with the following powers? Other than "confused", naturally. grinbig.gif

Reflexes 2 (3)
Traceless step (.5)
IA: Negotiations +4 (1)
IA: Stealth +4 (1)
(L) Killing Hands (.5)

-Siege
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
DE - how would a "social adept" be easily identified as being any different from a physical adept?


They wouldn't be, but I'd assume the Johnson does his homework and knows who he is hiring and what they do. They don't hire blind. If he's hiring a group that he did his homework on and knows he's hiring a group that includes an "adept who is known for fast, quiet, and lethal, as well as a sharp negotiator" then when he finds himself talking to that adept, he's going to have an idea to expect something.

Johnsons do this stuff for a living, after all. For some of them, their pay is dependent on how well they out-negotiate the shadowrunners. For the rest, their continued employment usually hinges on their ability to get a good deal for their employers.

Also keep in mind that the adept you just listed doesn't have any IA for Etiquette, making him no better at that than a mundane face, but he is going to have less skill points, most likely, to invest in Negotiation and Etiquette.
Herald of Verjigorm
The other thing to keep in mind is that anything PCs do, NPCs can do at least as well at GM discretion.

So, facial adepts are the group's new trick? What if the opposing negotiator is one as well? Or if you don't want them that common, how many of the adept powers will help when the meet is done via the Matrix?

Until I see the rules, I can't see if it's overpowering. Even if they are overpowering, there are always workarounds that reduce, remove, or even reverse an advantage. If nothing else, a well placed taser hit by an "unrelated troublemaker" should give a completely unfair advantage to the Johnson.
Siege
Like Herald noted, it's a matter of "wait and see".

I've yet to see a non-augmented Face in a game. One group uses a cyber-junkie with either skills or skillchips, I don't recall.

Mine tend to be adepts with high levels of Negotiations and Etiquette.

However, I haven't seen the specialist face + other stuff, although I've been dying to try one just for giggles.

-Siege
RangerJoe
The way I see it, there's a sort of economic arms race afoot when folks start thinking about social adepts.

An adept using something like IA: Negotiations is not a threat to a Johnson the way a mage with control thoughts is. He is simply a tougher negotiator. In response to this, I see corps training their Johnsons to be tougher negotiators, or even employing a social adept of their own.

Another solution might be adding a base time to a negotiations test. Even though the opposed test only takes two dice rolls, I see high-powered negotiations taking quite a while as the characters haggle. Johnsons might circumvent an adept's ability by insisting on a meeting which only lasts a fixed period of time ("Look chums, I can't be here in Matchstix all evening. I have a beautiful elven mistress to get home to.") If the negotiations drag over, because of the insanely high skill levels involved, the negotiations fail.

Before anyone jumps on it, Negotiations/Fast talk checks would have a shorter base time. Hence fast-talk.
RangerJoe
I'd welcome such new rules (advanced negotiation) with about as much enthusiasm as I've welcomed the rigger advanced vehicle rules. (take that as you will)
Siege
There has already been heavy discussion on how Johnsons could or should be resistant to Mind Control and Mind Probe spells.

Not to any meaningful conclusion, as far as I know.

-Siege
Synner
To waylay further speculation let me just say that "social adepts" in SOTA64 will be referenced simply as "normal" adepts walking one of the "new" Paths we introduce - one that channels their magic towards social interaction, empathic communication and metahuman expression.

Regarding the whole abuse of IA: Negotiation issue, it strikes me as odd that nobody's touched on the opposite side of the equation. Imagine what a GM can do with a "social adept" Johnson or fixer... devil.gif (I know I did, look for a tongue in cheek reference).

All in all I think the new powers and abilities, we will be introducing will actually place adept players in a bind of sorts. If they go for the "random cool power" approach, they'll end up with a jack-o-all-trades who's passable in a number of fields. But if they want to be top of their particular game they'll have specialize and ignore most of the powers unrelated to their field of choice.
mfb
just like 'normal' adepts, in other words.
JongWK
QUOTE
I still find it difficult to believe adepts are going to be broken into categories - physical, social etc. Enough to the point a Johnson would recognize and be suspicious of a Social adept over a Physical adept versus some sort of Aspected wizzer, mage or shaman.


They won't be "broken" into categories. Adepts follow Ways, which tend to focus which powers you'll be getting (but not limiting you to them).
FlakJacket
Well the book mentions ways but they weren't exactly much more than an introduction and these are ways X, Y and Z. Never really used them myself, didn't really saw much point in them. :/
Synner
One of the reasons Ways have been relegated to a secondary role, if any at all, in many games is the fact that that there has been very little to give them a playable context in SR3. That and the fact that, unlike the different paths of full magicians, Ways don't actually provide benefits in terms of game mechanics.

SR2's Awakenings did a pretty good job of explaining what they are and how they affect the manner in which adepts develop powers, but not that many people have the book. SOTA will be revisiting the Ways and bringing some insight into what makes different ways, well, different... and how this impacts characters, their outlook, style and what type of powers they manifest. If you're the type of person who thinks of his shaman as a "mage with extra totem bonuses", then this isn't really going to affect the way you play adepts. But if you're the type that likes to roleplay a certain mindset and have a character with a specific focus to orient his somatic magic then Ways will be the perfect way to do it.

Hopefully the material in SOTA will give you a "unique" perspective on the different ways and enough of an idea of how they mold a character and make for a good roleplaying gimmick to make them more user-friendly and interesting.
Kagetenshi
But if you're the kind who role-plays it, the Ways are too general to be useful anyway. I mean, the silent Way, the artist's Way, and the warrior's Way are all concepts that are extremely common, in my experience, amongst players who have never heard of Ways or read a word of MitS.

~J
Glyph
As far as an adept versus a mundane face, the mundane still has an edge - at least starting out. Half (at least) of being a face is contacts, and the mundane will have higher resources to spend on lots of Level: 2 Contacts.
Deacon
I don't see how the social Adept is being punished, ultimately, at character creation. A face spends Priority A (wow, imagine that, some of us still use priorities and not point-build for characters!) on resources for contacts anyway, and now it comes to a choice of where Priority B goes. Hmm, if the face wants to skimp on skills or characteristics (very easily overcome later on through the application of karma), they can go magical and get even more power into their social-mongering. So it comes down to a choice of putting Priority B into magic, where the benefits are immediate and long-lasting, or into attributes or skills, which can easily be made up for later on.

Tell me, again, how the social adept 'loses out' compared to a mundane face?

I'd imagine for point-buy it's the same thing. The face spends the points he was going to spend on starting resources anyway and then puts the points into being an adept. And makes up the deficiency in his starting skills or attributes with karma. A starting face only needs two skills anyway: Negotiations 4-6 (depending on power level) and Etiquette 4-6. You might want Interrogation or Intimidation, but that's all a face really needs.

What I want to know is, when does the 'fuck-the-samurai' movement end, and when do the sammies start getting stuff to put them on an even playing field with the mages and the adepts?

Don't give me any crap about how in Shadowrun, it's all about the magic. It's all about the technology too, otherwise there wouldn't be any cyberware and we'd all be limited to playing adepts or mages. This is a cyberpunk genre, crossed with fantasy I'll admit, but cyberpunk is about the technology and how we interact with it. But lately all I've seen is, if you want to be really good in this game, you have to have magic.

Let's take the GM out of the equation for a moment. Sure, a skilled GM can easily equalize the game by throwing bones to the mundanes and telling the mages to go hose themselves. But even then, the mundanes with cyber still get screwed even in the rules. Social interaction and cyberware rules hose the samurai while the mages don't suffer. Sure, we can have the airport security include a security mage -- but the PC mages don't have to let on that they're magical. Well, yes officer, I'm a mage, but so is 10% of the population of the UCAS, why are you harassing me specifically?

But let poor Mr. Samurai try to sneak his smartgun link through security and watch the fun.

Ah, you say, but the mages have to deal with magic loss! Yeah, if they get hurt. Which, nine hundred and ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a million, they won't. They're too busy hiding behind the samurais whose job it is to take the damage. Meanwhile poor Mr. Samurai gets to deal with Cyberware Stress, Bioware Stress... more things which drain the funds away from the poor samurai.

Mages have initiation, which they can take even if they can't find a group. Just costs a little more karma. Poor Mr. Samurai has to find a cyberdoc that he can trust who's good enough to put the cyberware in without fubar'ing the system up more than it was before. Let alone being good enough to let the samurai use the 'essence holes' that were left behind. I swear, if I ever find out who wrote the rules for surgery in Man & Machine, I'm going to hit them with a brick. Those rules in one fell swoop made it ten times harder to play a samurai.

Poor Mr. Samurai has to spend karma on attributes. He has to spend karma on firearm skills, on melee skills in case the CorpSec Adept Team closes in to hand-to-hand range, on stealth and athletics, on vehicle skills... the mage has to spend karma on two skills. Sorcery and Conjuring. Enchanting, I suppose, if the magician wants to get involved with increasing his power cheaply that way. The adept, in the meantime, has less to focus on because he's so specialized... and doesn't need to spend karma on increasing skills anyway, since they started out the game much higher than the samurai could ever hope to get.

Ah, but you say, the samurai starts with more power thanks to his cyberware! Yes, it's cyberware that he'll never be able to afford to upgrade thanks to the wonderful rules in Shadowrun Companion about the average pay scales, let alone the fact that the Man & Machine surgery rules fuck the samurai up the ass sidesaddle when it comes to getting upgrades. And it's nothing a magician can't get!!! The magician or adept can get the cyberware that they need that their own spells and power can't duplicate for them... and here's the kicker... they suffer no loss of power for doing so. That's right! Geas those magic points away, soon enough you're back to the same level that you started at with the same kind of cyber that used to make poor Mr. Samurai unique, or spend some of those starting resources for foci to make yourself even MORE POWERFUL!!!

No! Ignore the GM behind the curtain! We are not talking about the GM's responsibility here. The GM can make any rules he wants to. If it were truly up to the GM to balance the game, why are we making the rules? This is not a discussion of how GMs should intervene, blah blah. This is about the rules themselves. House rules do not exist for purposes of this argument -- the GM, in his house, may in fact choose to run a completely different game that solves all these problems and we would know nothing about it. We are stuck with the rules as they are written.

The rules fuck the mundanes in the ass painfully and without remorse, and then we're left wondering why people choose to play mages and adepts and leave the mundanes behind in the dust. No! Ignore that GM lurking in the shadows! According to the rules, the samurai is the weakest character type, even at character creation! Why then do we go and take the few benefits of playing a mundane -- cybernetically enhanced or no -- and give them to the magician or adept?!?

I want to see these things in Shadowrun, and I don't mean in just my game. Like I said, in my game I can do anything I want, but in Bob's or Fred's game or in Shadowrun Missions, I've got to do what the books say I can do.
I want to see more cyberware.
I want to see neat stuff that sure, might give you cancer, but if the mages take it, ROBS THEM OF ALL THEIR MAGIC!!! Too bad, Mr. Magician, this is NOT FOR YOU!
I want to see martial arts rules that make SENSE.
I want to see a corrected surgery system that helps the samurai, not hinders them.
I want to see rules for constructing AND IMPROVING your own gear, from your own micro-transceiver to your maglock passkey.
I want to see armor that works against mages. FAB-IV Bacterial Fiber woven with kevlar.
I want to see ways for mundanes to detect mages even when they're not casting spells.
I want to see vehicles that don't fall apart the first time a troll sits on it.
I want to see cyberlimbs that give value for their cost.
I want to see cyberlimb upgrades that don't cost ten times as much as the equivalent bioware/cyberware version for the meat body.
I want to see fixed cyber headware radios.
I want to see weapons that have other properties than just more ways to kill someone. I want to see weapons that have a PLACE in the world.
I want to see rules that give something back to the mundane, that tell the magician to go shove it, and tell the adept to quit crying about how, with his 12 dice in Pistols and reflexes and Body the same as the samurai, they still can't do everything a samurai can do.
And dammit, if you folks aren't willing to do it, I AM.
Deacon
QUOTE (Lucyfersam)
A metamagic technique, the name of which I do not remember, but requires centering and basically acts a mnemonic enhancer.

Yes, let's take away the mnemonic enhancer -- karma reduction for samurai/decker/rigger skills, one of the best things about being a mundane -- and turn around and hand it to the adepts. I _really_ want to see cool stuff for mundanes that robs magicians of all of their magic (and not the pansy point of magic they lose for bioware) if they take it. Too bad Mr. Magician, THIS IS NOT FOR YOU!!!
Crimsondude 2.0
Wow.

I think...

I like your comments, Deacon.

Of course, I seem to be in the minority here for most of those sentiments.

OTOH, I have been reading someone's thorough redo of Initiation that is much better (and just cooler) than MitS, so I actually want to play a mage for the first time in over, what, a decade?
Deacon
Yeah, but that's my point. It's someone else's re-do, it's not a book re-do. I don't want to put all this stuff on a website somewhere; that's not official. I want it in Shadowrun.

Of course they can't re-do all this stuff because it would call for a fourth edition... not to say a fourth edition isn't needed. But I'd imagine that if one were done, it would be a total game revamp, not something like third edition where all the extra rules pooch the player so badly that they're a hindrance more than a help.

I'd just like to see mages and adepts get the short end of the stick for once, and in a completely rules-specific way. Sure, a GM can use events or circumstances in his game to bend the magic character over and bugger him in the ass, like enforcing Geasa, having his NPCs target the mage specifically, etcetera, etcetera... but this is all GM-controlled bushwah. I want to see the rules hand the magician his ass, for once.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Deacon)
Of course they can't re-do all this stuff because it would call for a fourth edition... not to say a fourth edition isn't needed.

i think we should skip directly to fifth edition, personally. grinbig.gif

magic can merge with machine, just not very well, i mean, for pi's sake people it says on the back of the BBB

"where man meets magic and machine"

not magic OR machine
hobgoblin
deacon, why if you find the rules so broken do you then play the game? or is it the setting that keeps you comeing back? im tired of seeing posts like that where people bitch and moan about the rules and still play the game, to me that sounds anything but logical...

but then i try avoiding the comparison of the real world vs the game world even tho they are supposed to be set in the same world so to speak. its not a rl simulation, its a game. and games most of the time go for fun to play over anal realism...
Synner
QUOTE (Deacon)
QUOTE (Lucyfersam @ Sep 2 2004, 06:45 PM)
A metamagic technique, the name of which I do not remember, but requires centering and basically acts a mnemonic enhancer.

Yes, let's take away the mnemonic enhancer -- karma reduction for samurai/decker/rigger skills, one of the best things about being a mundane -- and turn around and hand it to the adepts.

I fail to see your point, both my combat sorcerer and detective adept character had mnemonic enhancers installed for a while now. It both cases it cost the character significantly less than the new advanced Metamagic (which means to pick it up requires a minimal 2 Initiations and buying up a Centering skill to an effective Rating). If you're going to gripe about something make it something reasonably unbalanced.
Kagetenshi
Can they stack?

~J
Synner
IIRC there's nothing specifically forbiding it but don't hold me to it since my HD melted down I don't have the drafts on me.

As I've mentioned before they work in slightly different ways, but even assuming there was direct overlap, you're looking at spending the Karma cost of 2 initiations and buying up a new Centering skill to get a similar effect to a new level of mnemonic enhancer (at only 0.2/level Bioindex/Essence cost for adepts)...

Also note this is an adept-specific metamagic - mages do not get this ability - the adept is using his magic to somatically enhance his intellectual faculties.

Adepts in particular have long been far more limited in scope and potential development (with regards to their magic abilities) by the type of powers available. I believe that for the most part with SOTA64 adepts will remain specialists (and consequently less versatile than a samurai who fills up with nano, cyber, bio and genetech) but will find new fields of specialization open to them beyond the traditional sneaker/assassin/combat monster niche.
Demonseed Elite
I do sort of agree with Deacon's post, in spirit, though not to the zealous extent he writes it. Not that it has anything specific to do with SOTA64, but there does seem like there has been a lot more developmental focus on things magical, rules-wise, than things technological. Probably because it's easier. The magic rules are less cumbersome than the cyber/decker/rigging rules, and there's also no need to worry about being "technologically accurate" with magic rules, since it's all made up anyway.

I do think the game needs a fourth edition that totally revamps how the game handles the whole technology vs. magic thing. The third edition rules were very much just a gloss-over of the second edition, and the game needs a serious revamp sometime in the near future, in my opinion. Not only because of the rules, but also because the feel of the game has changed a lot over time.

Not that I think it's going to happen right away, but I do think it'd be a good thing. With the way the game works currently, it's much more difficult, develop-wise, to focus work on the technological aspect than the magical aspect. And while the magical aspect is more exclusionary to certain characters, the technological aspect hasn't been equally so.
Lucyfersam
I have always found the fact that magic can interact with technology to be one of my favorite parts of SR, so in that respect at least I am in complete opposition to Deacon's post (I don't really feel like dealing with the rest, some I agree with, some I don't). The direction I've always viewed the SR world as heading (in the extreme long term, probably not significantly within the time range we'll ever play in) is the absolute integration of Magic and Technology, as the magic cycle rises the % of people who are in some way magical will rise, and new ways to combine magic and technology will be developed. It can never really happen in game as allowing mages to use cyberware with less magic loss would be unbelievably broken, but as a concept it is important. If rules started going in the opposite direction, things that were even worse for mages, it would go against that overall concept.

As far as the idea of doing a massive revamp of this sort of thing in a 4th edition, that would destroy one of the biggest things SR has going for it, which is the world continuity. If you radically change the way magic works, a lot of the history that has been established would no longer make sense. I like having that world setting and history to work out of, and doing something that would be incompatible with it would be the worst thing (short of switching to d20 ;-}) that could be done to SR.
hyzmarca
The simplest way to bridge the gap between magic and technology would be to introduce a Sixth World version of Earthdawn's Blood Charms, magical implants that are powered by the blood of their owners and can replicate various magical effects.
Deacon
Okay, I seem to have hijacked this thread pretty well... which was not my intention, but... -meh- :shrug:
QUOTE
Original by hobgoblin:
deacon, why if you find the rules so broken do you then play the game? or is it the setting that keeps you comeing back? im tired of seeing posts like that where people bitch and moan about the rules and still play the game, to me that sounds anything but logical...

I care about this game. The game is broken. Then people like Synner come along and break it more. This Is Wrong. So I bitch because I want these people to realize that, what they're doing in their stupidity, is breaking the game even more than it is already.

I am perfectly willing to go to the lengths needed to fix the game. What's needed is a revaluation of the core concept and either a joining of mages and mundanes, or a complete split. The way the game is going, a joining is needed, with all characters having access to magic, but then the choice of going technological (thereby losing magic, but gaining greater power) or magical (but losing raw physical power) is presented. Ways to get around this choice, like Geasa, need to be removed from the game, or modified so that they can no longer be used this way.

It sounds like this is what we already have. We do not. Cyberware would give amazing powers and abilities than magic could not. But at the same time, magic would give powers and abilities cyberware could not. And the player is left with the choice. Do they install the cyberware and impact their ability to use, and to be affected by, and improve, their magic? Or do they eschew the technology which would make them so temporally powerful, and concentrate their abilties on the magical aspect of it? Or do they go half-and-half and try to be a jack-of-all-trades sort of character?

In my system, there would be no mundane-vs-magical argument. All characters would have access to magic. It's the question of what choices you make how to develop it.
QUOTE
but then i try avoiding the comparison of the real world vs the game world even tho they are supposed to be set in the same world so to speak. its not a rl simulation, its a game. and games most of the time go for fun to play over anal realism...

At no time did I ever call a real world vs game world comparison into my argument. My argument is about basic fairness in the game rules. Players are being conned into playing a 'class' which, according to the rules, gives them no special abilties, no features which the other 'class' cannot duplicate. At the same time a small elite is being handed the world. This is not about the real world. This is basic fairness.
QUOTE
Original by Synner:
I fail to see your point, both my combat sorcerer and detective adept character had mnemonic enhancers installed for a while now. It both cases it cost the character significantly less than the new advanced Metamagic (which means to pick it up requires a minimal 2 Initiations and buying up a Centering skill to an effective Rating). If you're going to gripe about something make it something reasonably unbalanced.

True, this isn't as unbalanced as it seems, except that it's yet another thing that the mundanes cannot do, that the mages can. Any sort of discount on skills should be available to both the mundanes and the magically-active. This new 'advanced metamagic' is just another symptom of a game which you, Synner, are breaking even more. If you want to make it so that a mundane can get the same cost break on skills that this power would seem to give, then this would not break the game further.

If the mundane has to pay the same amount of karma into the system, so be it. Two magical grades and Centering to, say 6, is a minimum of 19 karma and six skill points in starting skills, plus six points of knowledge skills from Intelligence. (The rules never state that Centering cannot be taken at character creation.) So a mundane who's willing to pay 20 karma and take 6 points in, say, Mnemonic Entrainment Techniques (an active skill we'll tie to Willpower), plus 6 points in Mnemonic Memorization (a knowskill), should be able to get this bonus as well. 20 karma and six skill points at chargen is nothing compared to the discounts he'll get later on down the road...
QUOTE
Original by Lucyfersam:
I have always found the fact that magic can interact with technology to be one of my favorite parts of SR, so in that respect at least I am in complete opposition to Deacon's post

Don't get me wrong, I am not against the interaction of magic and technology. What I am against is the fact that the recent developments, rules-wise, have empowered the adepts and the magicians and have given nothing to the mundanes. And then the recent book takes what was considered a mundane-specific field and gives it to the adepts.

Shadowrun's problem is that, at character creation, you get a choice. Do you want to fubar yourself right at character creation by taking magic and losing out on resources/higher attributes/more skills, or do you want to take the one-time-only deal of ever having magic? This is the problem. I've already shown how, with a bit of karma, a magician can easily replace a mundane for most tasks, so it seems like an obvious choice.

So, in order to counter this choice, most GMs introduce 'class' limits into their games. No more than one or two magically-active PCs. I have no idea why the GM wants to bugger his players like this, but -meh- :shrug: If the players like getting buggered, that's their perversion. The rules make it obvious that the magically-active PCs will win in the end.

This is where the GM has to enter into the equation. He has to set it up so that his game world is oriented against the magical PC, in order to make it fair. He first has to limit the number of mages/adepts. Then he has to introduce situations that let the mundanes shine through the haze of the aura of the magically-active. Social restrictions. Prejudice. Magically-devoid areas where the mages can't use their abilities. (Mana warps, by the way, do not restrict adepts.) He must also throw the mundanes 'bones' in order to let them upgrade their skills, abilities, and gear/ware/vehicles. This is all fine and dandy, a GM can do all this. Or the GM can run within the rules and make his game a living hell for the mundanes.

SOTA2064, as I've heard it described, removes any incentive for someone to play a mundane character. Let's Give The Adepts The Abilities To Be The Face. This was an incorrect thing to do. Adepts have become the super-class, the being that replaces the mundanes. Why choose to be a mundane at all now? You'll get there faster as an adept. And with less problems to boot.

So let's give to the mundanes. Let's give abilties that fubar the mage, to the samurai. Let's give them cyberware which does neat things for mundanes but fuxx0rs the magically active. Let's give them armor which is resistant to their abilities. Let's give them weapons which can affect the things that only the mages can throw at us. Barring a complete re-write of the game, these are just patches used to add fairness to the argument. Let's give the mundanes the ability to compete with the mages, or let's give them things the mages cannot have.
QUOTE
Original by hyzmarca:
The simplest way to bridge the gap between magic and technology would be to introduce a Sixth World version of Earthdawn's Blood Charms, magical implants that are powered by the blood of their owners and can replicate various magical effects.

No, at this point I think a complete rewrite of the rules would be in order. I don't think a rules rewrite would destroy the continuity of the game; in fact, it would probably add to it, enabling the writers to concentrate on setting continuity. There is nothing inherently wrong with the way magic works; the problem, as I've stated before, is the fact that magic is supposed to be rare, yet is not. All PCs should have magic, like in Earthdawn. The question becomes how you use it. Do you choose to develop it outwards, casting spells and summoning spirits? Do you choose to focus it inwards, improving your body and mind? Do you choose to lessen it for the trade of tremendous physical power? Do you choose to invest it in the devices and automata you create, as a 'rigger'? Do you choose to integrate it with the machina soul, as a 'decker'?
Deacon
In my above post it looks like I contradict myself.
QUOTE
Let's give abilties that fubar the mage, to the samurai. Let's give them cyberware which does neat things for mundanes but fuxx0rs the magically active.

QUOTE
All PCs should have magic

The first is what can be done barring a complete rewrite of the basic concept of the game. I'm not asking for a rules change, I'm asking for a concept change. A paradigm shift, if you would, from a dichotomy of haves and have-nots to a unity of haves amd how you use it. It would really be a lot like the conversion of D&D from the jagged, uneven 2nd Edition Advanced rules to the new, streamlined D20 rules. And no, I'm not suggesting we convert to the D20 ruleset. No no no no no.

If we have to maintain the dichotomy of the haves and the have-nots, then at least let us reinvest in the have-nots to restore the balance of power. Let us give the same abilties, in some form, to the have-nots. Let us give abilties the haves cannot have, turning the have-nots into haves as well. Otherwise we're just giving people no reason to be the have-nots.
audun
Deacon: So what you want is game balance? A balance between cyber and magic? Do what everyone else do, put game balance into the setting, not the rules. Ever heard the battle cry: "Geek the mage!"
Without a sensible GM the game sucks anyway.

And bitching about rules you haven't seen yet for breaking the game... + personal attacks. Please behave!
Synner
QUOTE (Deacon @ Sep 5 2004, 10:22 AM)
I care about this game.  The game is broken.  Then people like Synner come along and break it more.  This Is Wrong.  So I bitch because I want these people to realize that, what they're doing in their stupidity, is breaking the game even more than it is already.

Well, I'm sure myself, and more to the point the people who've been writing Shadowrun for years now, are mature enough not to take offense at this well thought out, intelligent and obviously constructive opinion underlining our obviously limited understanding of the true nature of the game and the way people play it... sarcastic.gif

What I do take offense is that you have absolutely no idea about what I actually think or what I intend to bring/introduce to my Shadowrun writing and still manage to make inane and uninformed remarks like the one above. For instance you'd probably be surprised that I'm a firm advocate of not introducing adept powers that replicate cyberware functions. Not that it matters because you obviously feel strongly about speaking your mind about stuff you haven't even read.

I do suggest however that when you surface from bout of self-righteousness, you take the time to look through the archives on DSF and the old DSF for the number of threads on the subject of adept abilities and limitations, and peoples' opinions on the need to expand what was until this point one of the least developed runner specialties (Physical/Somatic/Magical Adepts have had less pages dedicated to them in the 5 published magic rulebooks -including BBB- than any other character type), and consider the number of posters who have asked, demanded or whined about the need to add more versatilitiy to adepts (just consider this thread for starters).

QUOTE
True, this isn't as unbalanced as it seems, except that it's yet another thing that the mundanes cannot do, that the mages can. Any sort of discount on skills should be available to both the mundanes and the magically-active. This new 'advanced metamagic' is just another symptom of a game which you, Synner, are breaking even more. If you want to make it so that a mundane can get the same cost break on skills that this power would seem to give, then this would not break the game further.

You are obviously missing the point, which isn't saying much since you're taking the trouble to critique something you haven't even read and are basing a number of you posts on assumptions you're pulling out of your hoop.

Let me try to put this in a way you should be able to understand then: a mundane does not need "Mnemonic Entrainment Techniques" or a "Mnemonic Memorization" or anything else to "beat" the skill learning effects of Cognition. As written a Mnemonic Enhancer rating 2 (Bio-index 0.4 for 30k nuyen) is better in this particular effect than Cognition, plus it can be upgraded and Cognition's game effects are stable.

Some may ask why introduce Cognition at all then - to which I'd answer that it is logical and obvious development of adepts who follow one of the paths touched upon in SOTA64 and one of the options for adepts who want to remain cyber-free. Strictly speaking, for the tweaker's/munchkin's perspective, it will still be a "better" and "cheaper" option to pickup a mnemonic enhancer than Cognition if what they're looking for is a skill learning boost.

QUOTE
(The rules never state that Centering cannot be taken at character creation.)

Unfortunately one of the most common misconceptions... I suggest you go reread MitS (p.72) before making another well-grounded pronouncement like that... just goes to show.

Centering requires people have two skills. A "creative skill" which you may already have (see p.72), and buying a new Magical Skill called Centering which is only available after you pickup the metamagic and conditions use of the creative skill. You may ignore the rule, many people gloss over it, but it's there and always has been in SR3 as an integral part of the magic rules and yet another limit/cap on a magician's karma expenditure.

QUOTE
SOTA2064, as I've heard it described, removes any incentive for someone to play a mundane character. Let's Give The Adepts The Abilities To Be The Face. This was an incorrect thing to do. Adepts have become the super-class, the being that replaces the mundanes. Why choose to be a mundane at all now? You'll get there faster as an adept. And with less problems to boot.

Once again you're the one coming to a rash and uninformed conclusion. You assume adepts are transformed into a jack-of-all-trades "class" and you ignoring what I've reiterated several times above regarding the limits imposed on adepts if they don't specialize and most importantly whether or those limits are balanced with say a cybered character's augmentations and/or an unenhanced face's network of contacts and social skills (which you have no way of knowing until you actually read the book).

Not only that but you ignore the potential for SOTA64 to carry lots of new toys and gear for mundanes (which it does in the Spy and Law Enforcement sections) as well as touching upon various advantages and disadvantages of a character's magic and tech options in those and related fields - much in the way SOTA63 explained Magic's limited and specialized interest on the battlefield. You assume something about what's written without having read it, so I suggest you wait before making further unfounded deductions.

Like any character adepts will continue to be limited by specialization. Adepts who pick and choose "random" powers, rather than focus on one field, will be slightly less effective than a specialist. On the other hand a specialist will be focusing on the abilities most useful for his area of expertise and ignoring a large number of the 90+ powers now at his disposal (which in turn cancels the whole jack-o-all-trades thing out the window).

Regarding your battery of comments on the problem of Magic and its pervasiveness, it simply strikes me that you obviously aren't playing your magical countermeasures to their fullest or are simply ignoring the in-built limitations magical development entails (either that or your playing in a high-karma game which bends the development curve). Magicians may potentially be more powerful, but 9 times out of 10 so are their counters. Even passive magical countermeasures (like wards, watchers and spirit guards) will ruin a mage's chances of doing something a normal or cybered mundane could do just as easily in the field. And that's not even getting into some of the new nasty surprises introduced in SOTA64 (amazing, who would have thought blind stupidity might have thought of some of those too?).

You even miss (or chose to miss, whichever you prefer) the obvious point of why some GMs cap the number of magician's. According to the default "canon" setting, magic users are rare (the fact that the percentages in the shadows being inflated has been covered to death and explained consistently in the game) and if a GM feels he needs to enforce max numbers on PC to maintain consistency in his particular game so be it. Magicians are still only 1% of the population (which is a lot considering), and depending on your game having a team of two shamans, an adept and a mage running around maybe cool or may bend the way the GM intends to master his game. Either way he's entitled to enforce whatever he wants in his game, and his players choose to play in it or not. I have yet to see a player fault a GM's limits on magic user characters if he chooses to bring up the "rarity card".
Deacon
Then, in the interests of enlightenment, I shall table my argument until I read the book.
Demonseed Elite
A lot of the ways you can balance the prevelance of magic, even in the games normal rules, are also "soft techniques." They aren't the same hard-and-fast rules of limitation that a lot of the technology aspects have, like Essence or maintenance costs. This may seem like the gamemaster is doing the balancing, and to an extent that is true, but those balance techniques do exist in the game.

Like Synner said, enforcing rarity is one possibility. It's not a hard rule from the rulebook, but the rulebook does make it clear how rare mages are, and so if you're team is made up entirely of magically awakened, something might be wrong and the GM should step in to maintain the spirit of the game. Also consider things like background count, which is often saved for special notation in seriously bad cases (heavy pollution zones, etc) but could exist nearly anywhere. Most of the downtown Sprawl could have low levels of background count, which makes life harder for mages, but doesn't bother the street sam at all. Or the costs and difficulty involved in healing injury without invasive surgery or medication. If the mage loses the next paycheck because he's undergoing careful medical treatment, while everyone else healed up last week, well, he loses a paycheck.

Also remember that these "soft rules" can benefit technological characters too. If your characters are finding that the costs of cyberware/gear maintenance/replacement are getting too prohibitive, you could always have the next Johnson offer gear discounts, access to high tech gear, etc. as part of the job reward. That may not appeal to the mage or adept, but if 3/4 of the team uses cyber, it could be appealing to the team.
Kagetenshi
Not saying that it wouldn't still be broken, but Deacon, even if everything you say is true, there's still reason to play a mundane. Sub-1 Essence ain't exactly conducive to magicuse, and rigging>magic.

~J
Lucyfersam
I like some of the ideas presented in your argument, Deacon. Giving the non-awakened some way to interact with/counter magic could be a very interesting and useful development, if done right. From Synner's comments, it sounds like some of this may already appear in SOTA: 2064.

If you feel so adamantly about things, and are as willing to work to do something about it as you claim, then try submitting proposals to Fanpro. You have some very good and as near as I can see well thought out ideas (although they would be more effective leaving out the anger and personal attacks). While some of the developers read these forums, they are not the most effective way to try to bring about changes in the development process, trying to join the development team and putting forth your ideas in that forum would be far more effective.
mfb
incidentally, the wording on page 72 of MitS does not specifically forbid learning the Centering skill prior to taking the Centering metamagic. indeed, it's actually said that Centering is the original purpose behind many ancient dancing and singing traditions--in other words, people knew the Centering skill before there was such a thing as magic; it stands to reason that they could also learn the Centering skill before initiation. obviously, a mage with the Centering skill but no Centering metamagic won't be able to actually use the skill until he learns the metamagic, but there's nothing in the book that bars a mage or adept from learning the skill at chargen.
Synner
That is indeed a possible interpretation. Though I see nothing wrong with the reading, I would point out that the second paragraph on Centering states that "the creative skill can even be one that the initiate already possesses". The fact that the text offers nothing of the sort for the Centering skill strongly suggests it shouldn't be picked up at creation but at Initiation.

I'd also submit that not actually being able, as you say, to "use the skill until he learns the metamagic" means there's nothing to there to learn until you Initiate since this skill is an Active Skill which represents a "character's ability to use his creative skill to center" (something rather difficult to do with an ability you don't possess until you learn the Centering technique) - which is how I play it in my game.

Regardless of the interpretation, it's another karma/build point sink for magicians (or more to the point two karma sinks).
Birdy
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
A lot of the ways you can balance the prevelance of magic, even in the games normal rules, are also "soft techniques."  They aren't the same hard-and-fast rules of limitation that a lot of the technology aspects have, like Essence or maintenance costs.  This may seem like the gamemaster is doing the balancing, and to an extent that is true, but those balance techniques do exist in the game.



Soft techniques have a lot of problems:

+ Endless arguments with certain mage-loving players
+ They often seem "act of god"
+ They force even more work and discussion on the GM

QUOTE


Like Synner said, enforcing rarity is one possibility.  It's not a hard rule from the rulebook, but the rulebook does make it clear how rare mages are, and so if you're team is made up entirely of magically awakened, something might be wrong and the GM should step in to maintain the spirit of the game.  Also consider things like background count, which is often saved for special notation in seriously bad cases (heavy pollution zones, etc) but could exist nearly anywhere.  Most of the downtown Sprawl could have low levels of background count, which makes life harder for mages, but doesn't bother the street sam at all.  Or the costs and difficulty involved in healing injury without invasive surgery or medication.  If the mage loses the next paycheck because he's undergoing careful medical treatment, while everyone else healed up last week, well, he loses a paycheck.



Enforcing rarity makes character generation a looong discussion. Given the way they are stuffed and pampered as well as the current "fantasy is cool" wave, everyone want's to play something magic.

Ja, sure! As if a player will sit out x evenings because his character is "injured". It's even in the oh so important fluff-text that "most healing takes part between runs". So it's either integrating a "replacement mage" in the group (and then life with the question of: Why can't we contact the ErsatzMage?) or lifting the number restriction and having multiple mages in-group

QUOTE



Also remember that these "soft rules" can benefit technological characters too.  If your characters are finding that the costs of cyberware/gear maintenance/replacement are getting too prohibitive, you could always have the next Johnson offer gear discounts, access to high tech gear, etc. as part of the job reward.  That may not appeal to the mage or adept, but if 3/4 of the team uses cyber, it could be appealing to the team.


Another one that feels like "Act of GM" and leads to questions like "why can't Johnson supply magical goods also".


Sorry but the "soft" aspects are IMHO the major problem of Shadowrun (okay, maybe after the crappy game system) They benefit certain players and races/character combinations since enforcing them is "discussion-heavy" and will get others bored quickly. It might work with a large "force" of players where you can tell some to "join any group but this". It won't work in a small player community.

Birdy
Synner
On the other hand... mileage varies. I tend to be one of the GMs who enforces limits on magic user numbers in my groups and I've never had a problem (or time wasting discussion) in the 12+ years I've been playing the game (for the better part of which I've played weekly, with upwards of 50 players and groups averaging 4 players). Likewise I have never had a problem raised by players regarding soft techniques (except the sammy who always wanted his own street doc to go over and install any cyber loot to be on the safe side).

And for every Wired Reflexes system shot out and needing maintenance I can point to a 210k nuyen/10 karma Power Focus nuked by an astral mage, a low powered sustaining focus killed by a passive ward, and a 6000 nuyen magic circle that only got used once - it all depends on how you GM.
Salvation122
This thread is an excellent example of why FanPro should give Mike Jones lots and lots of money and license BeCKS as the standard character creation system for Shadowrun 4E, whenever it gets written. Balances that power curve quite nicely at average chargen powerlevels, though it's obviously not perfect.
Demonseed Elite
I've never had a problem with the "soft rules" in my groups either. Sounds like you have problem players. Even the soft rules are part of the game, and it's the gamemaster's stance on their use, not the players'. Every game has them, and Shadowrun is full of them, and the GM shouldn't allow themselves to be railroaded into something by the players. I mean, there's rules for playing drakes too, but the gamemaster shouldn't allow everyone to make a drake. It's all about setting the rules.
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