Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Elemental Effects
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Botch
In earlier threads it is stated that mundane can effect spirits by causing elemental effect damage.

What causes elemental effect damage and what exactly is it?

I know of flamethrower, some people have mentioned taser and laser, but until I fully understand it I don't know whether to except them.
Lindt
If I was to spray a sprit down with liquid Nitrogen, that would be elemental damage. Its anything that isnt effectifly balistic in nature (that includes fists, clubs ect). Lasers, flames, electricty, extreame hot or cold.
Kagetenshi
Blowtorches.

~J
Dashifen
splash grenades or capsul (sp?) rounds loaded with the correct substance might (i.e. spalsh grenades loaded with distilled water against flame based thingies) also I've seen people get creative with the Wujen elements of Wood and Metal as well (course I make them use unrefined ore to count as metal, otherwise that nice katana counts as Metal).
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I've seen people get creative with the Wujen elements of Wood and Metal as well (course I make them use unrefined ore to count as metal, otherwise that nice katana counts as Metal).

Not to mention those nice bullets.
Lindt
Guess I should start carrying some granite sling stones eh? See this is where that line gets fuzzy. Can I throw a rock (lets say there are stones around and I pick up a rock and throw it... its an earth element, but does it count indifferent.gif )?
Apathy
There's a huge nuber of discussions in the forums about what should be considered elemental damage and what shouldn't. There's lots of disagreement between individual posters, but here's how I rule it:

Water Cannon/Fire Hose: Yes
Flamethrower/Blowtorch: Yes
Acid: Usually no (most acids are heavily processed/not natural enough)
Metal: Usually no (I'll only count it if they somehow used unrefined ore, and if they did I'd adjust the power of the slug/shrapnel downward)
Electrical/StunBaton/Taser/etc: Yes
Blast: I treat concussive waves from large explosions as elemental blast damage.
Capsule Rounds filled with whatever (water, etc.): No
Poison: No
Radiation: Not sure/Maybe?
Light: I treat lasers and elemental light damage
Kagetenshi
Radiation creates background count, so at the very least it's indirectly damaging it.

~J
Lindt
So I need to carry a supersoaker for my next sprit battle.... entertaining.
Botch
So what element are in use then?

Trad. elements would be Fire, Earth, Water, Air, Wood, and Metal. Were does light and electricity come from? Electricity is just too new as an element.
Lindt
Not really, lightning isnt exactly new. Night is light.
Botch
Oh, and which traditional belief system listed electricity or lightning then? Can you summon electricity or light elementals?
Garland
Not as elements, exactly, but plenty of belief systems reserved a special place for lightning and thunder. Zeus, Thor, thunderbirds, etc. And there are storm spirits.

As for light, it's a potent force: what do things that go bump (such as vampires) in the night fear? Light. From a Christian standpoint, what signalled the start of creation? Light. There aren't any associated spirits, for this one, though, that's true.

What I find a little less defensible is the elemental effect Blast. Huh?
Botch
QUOTE (Garland)
Not as elements, exactly, but plenty of belief systems reserved a special place for lightning and thunder. Zeus, Thor, thunderbirds, etc. And there are storm spirits.

As for light, it's a potent force: what do things that go bump (such as vampires) in the night fear? Light. From a Christian standpoint, what signalled the start of creation? Light. There aren't any associated spirits, for this one, though, that's true.

Zeus and Thor are/were gods, this is godpower not a taser. So for electricity it would be a HT power line or an actual lightning strike.

Storm spirits = Air spirits

My thinking is, if there isn't an aligned spirit/elemental then there isn't an element effect.

Is fear enough to cause damage? If so there is room for the argument that you could chase an earth elemental off with a leafblower.
Garland
Gods or not, lightning is/was was a recognized, feared, and much storied natural force. And a lot more common than dangerous manifestations of Earth, for instance.

A leafblower wouldn't cause damage to an earth elemental (well, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that supports that it would). Sunlight does cause damage to vampires. They're scared of it for a reason.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Garland)
What I find a little less defensible is the elemental effect Blast. Huh?

Air.

And being trapped under a large rock ain't happy. Rockslides, landslides, etc.

~J
Botch
Yes, because they are specifically allergic to it. What about everything else that sunbathes or just prefers not bumbing into things. Dogs, bugs, spiders, et al, don't have an elemental effect but people are scared of them and there are more of us than there are vampires.

My point about lightning is linked to the leafblower. A hurricane is dangerous and damaging, so is lightning. A leafblower isn't, so why would the reletively low power level of a taser be of any use.

Before you say it, yes tasers hurt humans, but so do bullets and they don't count against s/e
Botch
Sorry, back to the leafblower, what force level (intelligence/stupidity) would an earth elemental have to be to fall for the follow.

"Leave foul creature, before I destroy you! I hold the mighty power of Air, what you feel is the but the forerunner of your doom!"
Garland
I'm not suggesting Earth shouldn't be an elemental effect. It's got a long established tradition as one (especially in the context of rpgs).

What I am saying is that there's just a much tradition and reason for the inclusion of Lightning and Light as elemental effects.

Blast has always seemed a little strange for me, though. Kagetenshi points out "air," and I assume he means that's where tha damage is in "Blast." This is pretty damaging to everyone's argument here.

It suggests that Blast is some subset of Air/Wind, and Lightning might be as well, as Botch suggested storm spirits were. Would this mean that Light is some subset of Fire? Hmmm... Not separate categories as I like, but still elemental effects.

Well, at any rate, we know what the books have to say on the matter, regardless of anyone's personal preference.
Kagetenshi
In the Jewish tradition, electricity is a subset of fire.

Metal is unquestionably an element, as indicated by the existence of Artificer.

~J
Garland
No kidding? That's pretty cool. Either way would really make sense, depending on how a person wanted to look at it.

Um, according to the Horrors book, didn't Artificer come about as a monstrous earth elemental being subverted/possessed by a Horror?
Kagetenshi
Nope; monstrous metal elemental being subverted.

The metaplane of metal is, however, accessed through the metaplane of earth, IIRC.

~J
Botch
My understanding of traditional "elements" is that they are "purest" or essence of the thing. So wouldn't the arguement about not using swords fall apart if you include metal as an elemental category or would it only include gold as a suitable metal.

The alchemists quest to change base metals into gold had nothing to do with wealth, but the pursuit of "perfection". Whatever you do to gold it is always gold (well, upto 60 years ago, anyway) melt it, hit it, leave it alone for ages, put it in water, it always returned to be being gold. The best alchemists in the dark ages were mostly priests as god is Perfection and if you could change something into gold, the closer you would be to understanding Perfection. Thus closer to god.
Kagetenshi
How long has Aqua Regia been around? From the name, I'd guess at least World War I-era.

~J
Botch
Ok, 60 is a bit conservative, but not by much.

I was just checking out the explosive threads and K-10 mentioned a type of frag grenade. Explosive surrounded by gravel. Would this be an elemental effect?
Austere Emancipator
New elements (as in what you have on the periodic table) have been discovered from residues found in Pt ang Au dissolved in aqua regia since 1802. So at least 202 years old.

[Edit]
QUOTE (http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/copper.htm)
Aqua regia, in German Königswasser, appears to have been first prepared by Andreas Libau (Libavius) around 1600. Libau discovered concentrated hydrochloric acid, while strong nitric acid was discovered by the "False" Geber around 1300.
[/Edit]
Botch
I wish I listened to myself when I said no more flip comments. frown.gif

But it still stands as correct about the Alchemists from the Dark Ages. Anybody ever check out the work of Roger Bacon (can't remember how to spell his name in church latin).
Austere Emancipator
No worries, I'm just a Googlephiliac.
Kagetenshi
Technically speaking you’re still correct, as you can precipitate gold out of aqua regia.

In the end, what counts as elemental metal is entirely up to the GM. I might declare it to be a pure ferrous or precious metal.

~J
Espiritu
Or you could allow the noble metals such as silver, gold, and copper and the like to harm.

Traditionally silver has always been mythical in perspective. Just my two cents on a conversatoin that is mostly over my head.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Noble%20metals
Austere Emancipator
If you allow Fe or Ag to get around Immunity to Normal Weapons, then no gunbunny need look very far for potential spirit-killing weapons. Silver and iron bullets are both very feasible, not particularly difficult or expensive to manufacture and decently effective compared to conventional projectile designs.
Kagetenshi
Note the requirement for pure fe, carbon steel would not qualify. It’d probably still be a bit on the easy side, though.

~J
Lindt
pfff Pb. Hot lead. Back on topic. Im gonna put it as non-'material' damage. Note the quotes, so a flame thrower would work, as would a firehose, as would a laser, but someone hucking a lump of marble wouldent.
Kagetenshi
So Earth doesn’t work at all?

~J
Austere Emancipator
Pure Fe would be better for bullets than carbon steel. Far, far better. Slightly more expensive, perhaps, but makes up for it by being easier to cast into bullets.
Garland
One could require that for pure Fe to affect a spirit that it be "cold" iron, if we're following traditions of effectiveness. How hard would it be to hammer that bullet into shape rather than cast it?
Austere Emancipator
Extremely difficult. Impossible, even. The silver that kills werewolves (and other critters) has no such requirements, though.
Espiritu
I'd personally allow the use of metals that were of Noble origins to be used in rounds capable of effectivly harming an elemental. Since Silver, gold, and copper can easily be cast into bullets without changing their chemical properties in any way, I see it as fitting. If someone want to carry around a clip of Silver bullets I wouldn't scoff since it is still of it's original elemental properties...now the process of smelting may be a different story all together... I'd definetly say that rounds laced with Oricalcum(sp?) would definetly hurt ANY elemental type if it were shot at it.

Is the current metalurgical conversation based on how to harm "earth" vulnerable targets?
Austere Emancipator
Quick note about silver prices (yes I'm aware nobody has claimed it's expensive, just saying). Currently (as of 15 minutes ago...) it goes at $6.27 per troy ounce in NY. That means about $2.09 per "Heavy Pistol" bullet, or $0.78 per "Assault Rifle" bullet, assuming it's pure silver. Assuming the good ole $1 = 1 nuyen.gif holds, that means the silver for a Predator mag-full only costs 32 nuyen.gif, which is pretty insignificant when regular ammunition already costs 30 nuyen.gif.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Quick note about silver prices (yes I'm aware nobody has claimed it's expensive, just saying). Currently (as of 15 minutes ago...) it goes at $6.27 per troy ounce in NY. That means about $2.09 per "Heavy Pistol" bullet, or $0.78 per "Assault Rifle" bullet, assuming it's pure silver. Assuming the good ole $1 = 1 nuyen.gif holds, that means the silver for a Predator mag-full only costs 32 nuyen.gif, which is pretty insignificant when regular ammunition already costs 30 nuyen.gif.

That's a false assumption, you're comparing the price of raw silver not counting the materials and manufacture of the powder, casing and shell. Multiply that a good bit and that would be the actual cost of the bullets.
Lindt
But seriously, who commericially produces pure silver ammo? Do it yourself. So a clip of silver (sucks to be a were-something now) is what.. 40 bucks?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (BitBasher)
That's a false assumption, you're comparing the price of raw silver not counting the materials and manufacture of the powder, casing and shell. Multiply that a good bit and that would be the actual cost of the bullets.

I said nothing about the actual price of the bullets, let alone the price of the whole cartridge. I only mentioned the price of the silver for the bullets. That's rather insignificant. Since we're talking about simply casting them into a bullet shape and loading them onto a normal casing with normal powder and primer, they shouldn't be any more expensive than certain other "special" ammunition types (explosive comes to mind).
RangerJoe
So far my GM hasn't balked at the fact that my latest PC carries a clip of rock salt shotgun shells and elemental (pure-- that's +3 on the outside ant +2 on the inside) iron shotgun shells. The rules I use are (-1 power -1 DL flechette) for the rock salt rounds and (-2 power flechette) for the iron rounds. Now, bear in mind that these rounds are designed for use against critters with weaknesses to certain materials, not for use against manifest spirits.
Kremlin KOA
okay people, slight reference to ED here, but based on spells from the elementalist you get

Flamethrower= use on water things
Water blaster, use on fire things
Sand blaster, use on Air or Earth things, it does both high power air and sand, thus earth and air things will be immune to one of the things hitting it, and horribly vulnerable to the other...
Kagetenshi
But there aren't any restrictions as to what elemental effect hurts who. A flamethrower will hurt a fire elemental and a water cannon will hurt a water elemental.

~J
Shalimar
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But there aren't any restrictions as to what elemental effect hurts who. A flamethrower will hurt a fire elemental and a water cannon will hurt a water elemental.

~J

Which is pretty stupid.
Bigity
I wouldn't allow any kind of bullets to get past it really, unless some Enchanter specially made each one. I also wouldn't allow tasers and thrown, hand-sized rocks.

I'd allow things such as flamethrowers, firehoses, causing mounds of rock and earth to fall on top (or be flung at) of the spirits, or liquid nitrogen, or a cut power cable stabbed into its eye.
Apathy
If I remember correctly, elementals have a vulnerability to their opposing element, though. So a flame thrower damages both, but damages water elementals more. (I could be mis-remembering this, so somebody else will have to tell me if I'm smoking crack again...)
Espiritu
I'm sorry but that is just retarded to allow flamethrowers to harm a Fire Elemental. I'd only allow fire to harm fire if someone could suck up enough oxygen around the elemental to snuff it out....and then I'd still give it a body test based on the estimated power of the attack to resist! An Earth elemental could be crushed by rocks and the same would happen...hell I'd want to say that some of those attacks may just heal it.
Bigity
I dunno, that kind of thinking seems more appropriate for A&D (undead and cure spells), and Final Fantasy (casting Bolt on a lightning critter), and not really in the "spirit" of Shadowrun.

If an elemental was immune to fire, it would have the Invulnerability to Fire power.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012