Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Sniping and Surprise
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Krieger
I think it pretty much goes without saying that an experienced sniper can be one of the most lethal components of the game. I'd just like to clarify something.

Here's my train of thought:
A sniper set up several hundred meters from his target will not provoke a surprise round, since the act of shooting a single bullet won't be heard or seen by the target. The only way to have a chance of dodging or taking cover from a shot like this lies in magic. Combat sense is ruled out, since all it does is allow you to add Combat Pool dice to your Reaction test, which you won't be making anyway. That leaves Sixth Sense, which says "Adepts with sixth sense possess the ability to immediately sense personal danger and leap into action with startling suddenness." (p. 151, MITS). Now, since I'm sure that a sniper bullet heading for his left ear is considered "personal danger", this would allow our poor target to make a Reaction test to react to being shot.

Am I on the right track here, or am I just spouting nonsense?
Tanka
It does make sense. Another thing that might work is something like Detect (Bullet) on a wide area, thus alerting the person it's centered on to notice it and react by a sudden leap/drop/whatever.
toturi
QUOTE
Combat Sense provides an instinctive sense about an area and any potential threats nearby.


While there is no defination of "threats nearby", it is still possible to use Combat Sense against a sniper, provided that the GM rules that he is close enough. Personally since there is no Canon defination for "threats nearby", I would say that Combat Sense works since the bullet would enter the "threat" area and give the person with Combat Sense a kind of Spider Sense a split second before it hits.

And I'd allow both Combat Sense and Sixth Sense to stack.
Voran
Yeah it seems the only real way to protect versus snipers in the game is through magic. Overlapping magical shields, spirits and adepts. I forget what it was called exactly, but I think its in the 2nd ed Corporate Security Guide/handbook/whatever the hell it was called. It had security adepts who were focused towards protecting others, they had some adept powers that gave bonuses to their target.
DrJest
From my admittedly out of date point of view:

As a GM I would definitely allow a physad's Sixth Sense to warn against a sniper attack. Yes, he's a long way away, but (and here I get really fragging mystical) his intent is right in the adept's face, a mental connection that links them together. And yes, that's just a pseudo mystical mumbo jumbo excuse to give a character some warning wink.gif

Taking another tack, since the PC's are the "heroes" of the story, I use a time-honoured cinematic technique of the inadvertent giveaway, letting the characters make a Perception (6) test to spot some oddity (was that the flash of sunlight on a reflective surface? Is that someone up on the roof of that building?)

And last but not least, there's that old classic of "heroes are lucky fraggers". To simulate that, I'd make a Karma Pool test against a target number based on how good the sniper is (off thetop of my head, low-grade hitman, 5; pro merc, 8; Blackwing, 12) for the PC to coincidentally pause when not expected, bend down to pick something up, or whatever.

One technique my old original character (you know... the one that nobody lets me play anymore because he earned 248 Karma over his career and he's just too damn hard compared to everyone else frown.gif ) uses is the classic anchored Detect Bullet/Bullet Barrier combo. Supplementary to that, and because I am just that paraniod, I usually have a really drek-for-Force watcher tailing me when I'm expecting trouble to warn me if someone is going after my gear astrally.
Jr. Woodchuck
QUOTE (Krieger)
Am I on the right track here, or am I just spouting nonsense?

Sounds good to me. ...and is a good reason why Snipers never appeared in my game. Having Snipers appear in your game is instant death for your characters, if you do it right.
Artemus
QUOTE
Sounds good to me. ...and is a good reason why Snipers never appeared in my game. Having Snipers appear in your game is instant death for your characters, if you do it right.


Right, I have to agree with that. Unless the characters are expecting trouble a well placed sniper in a meet will spell certain death to at least one character. Not only do they have to be expecting trouble, they have to actually find the sniper. A camouflaged sniper or one with an invisibility spell would certainly spell doom for the characters.

I also like the Karma pool idea. I might use that in my games.
Derek
Also, here is something you might not want to think about. Most gamers are not combat vets, but the characters might be. In fact, most characters have some experience with combat. What does this mean?

Well, you (you personally, not your character) when walking down the street might be scanning places for possible sniper positions, looking for dangerous areas, and generally walking in such a way as to make yourself a "hard target" On the other hand, people with experience in combat, or good training, do exactly such a thing. Trust me, I know, having been shot at before.

So, while you might not be describing your character doing such things, he probably is, and thats where the combat pool falls in. That combat pool is the game mechanic that descibes the scanning for danger areas and generally keeping yourself safe.

So, give the characters the benefit of the doubt, and let them use some of their combat pool when being shot at by a sniper. Explain it as I described above. If, of course, the player specifically states that he is walking down the middle of the street focused directly ahead, than don't give him any benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, do.

It's this aspect, the benefit of the doubt, that allows us to role-play. That is, play roles that we might not be able to in real life. For example, if someone is playing a mage, and he doesn't describe exactly what hand motions he uses to cast a spell (since the player in real life probably doesn't know how to cast a spell), you don't penalize him. Likewise, if a desk bound never-seen an angry look much less a shot fired in anger person is playing a combat hardened vet, you won't expect the player to know everything there is know about combat.

Derek
Wounded Ronin
Prolonged exposure to .30-.06 rounds may be hazardous to your health.



I figure that if a given character is targeted by a sniper, it's kind of cheesy to let them use their full pool to make a dodge test. I'd just leave 'em to karma the body test or else let them HOG. Once characters start to get too much karma it's nice to let them waste some of it resisting a .30-.06 round in the buttocks so things can actually get dramatic instead of predetermined later.

But then again, there have hardly ever been snipers in my campaigns. Specifically because it's one of those things that realistically you can't do much about, and as such it's less fun for the purpose of a game. I figure it is potentially a good way to help "eat" excess karma pool.
Voran
Ooh. Another Hawai based person! Heh, anyway, I agree with Derek's sentiment. Its important not to overlook that pretty much always your characters are going to be more skilled than your players. As a real person, I know pretty much nothing about combat, tactics, firearms, whatever. Its important to build situations that characters can get out of, and doesn't penalize a player for not having a certain type of real world experience.

Snipers are best used a plot devices, NPC whacks another NPC triggering a story. Cause any semiskilled hitman NPC versus a PC is pretty much going to win a surprise shot every time, unless there is magic involved.

toturi
There is a reason why snipers are so deadly. If snipers feature prominently in your game, expect your players to build their PCs to be able to "resist" sniper attempts.
Crusher Bob
A sniper is not some magical one hit wonder. To sucessfuly hit a specific target, you have to know where there target will be at a specific time. You then need a place that provides a good shot angle. If they will not be at a 'fixed' location (like giving a speach behind a podium) you need a place that provides a variety of good angles. (This is harder than it seems). Then you have to be able to hit the target once they are there. (Really helps if you have a spotter or to to talk to you, so that know what the target is going.

Notice that your target is smart he will tend to avoid 'exposed' areas that have a lot of potential shot angles, or at least minimize his exposure by walking quickly, or similar. Also, if the area is know ahead of time, you can analyze where the likely locations for a sniper to be are, and then be ready to supress them. If going to the meet in an exposed location, see if you can get a map of the area. Plot likely sniper locations as artillery target reference points. leave your friendly neighborhood clip fed auto-mortar behind. Get sniper fire? Use you spatial recognizer cyber ears, or just acarreid version to pinpoint his position ang give him 6 rounds of 60mm HE. Sure it dosen't help the first guy, but it sure helps all the rest of the team. If you don't have an auto mortar, you can leave set up your own 'counter sniper' and have him scan the likely locations...

But that only applies when going to the meet or similar, how do you prevent yourself from being taken out while going to the grocery store?
Don't be predicatble.
If you goto the store every tuesday at 6pm then the sniper has to only be on station 5 minutes before you get there and then leave. If you randomize your schedule as much as possible, then the sniper has to 'hang around' a lot more increasing his risk of detection. (Be extra careful about part of your schedule that are almost fixed, like say, picking up the kids from school). Where possible, use multiple routes and choose one randomly just before you go.
Move fast.
It's much harder to hit a mobile target, don't loiter.
Employ telltales and couter surveillance
Someone needs to watch you for a while to know your schedule, think of yourself as a target and find the places someone watching you would be likely to hang out. Bribe the 7-11 clerks, leave hidden cameras, (and simlar stuff). Rent out the apartment that would be the perfect place to shoot you from yourself. rig up a fake sin for the 'renter' they are in another country (or something). Rig the place with discrete electornic security. If ye sniper breaks in and plans to shoot you, your pokect secretary rings and asks: intrusion detected detonate mines in apartment kill-box (Y/N)?

The real defense against the sniper is not resiting the first bullet, but trying to minimise the chances of the first bullet ever being fired. Notice that almost all assinated heads of state were done at very close range, it's usually much easier to get close to someone and shoot them with a pistol that it is to shoot them from a long way away.
Austere Emancipator
Crusher Bob has a lot of good points. Successful sniping is not that easy. If a character cannot be found, it's damn hard to shoot him. Knowing when and where is probably the toughest bit. Once the sniper has that, you're pretty screwed, realistically. If you've got a place and a time (with a 6 hour margin of error), and the location is not thoroughly inspected beforehand by people friendly to the mark or guarded heavily, you have to be pretty sucky compared to your mark not to succeed.

Heads of state are more difficult because they've got massive safety detachments and can indiscreetly scout the neighborhood well in advance of going there. They've always got a hundred pairs of eyes nearby checking out the area, and as many guns to wield against would-be snipers. They've also got a massive intelligence organization trying to find out about the threats before they bring the fight to the VIP. Generally speaking shadowrunners don't have any of that, only their shadowy lifestyle.

For those who believe PCs should get their Combat Pool when they're sniped because they're used to that sort of threat: Be sure to give that to NPCs with similar mindsets. Using this ruling, you should also ignore the "A character cannot use Combat Pool against attacks by someone who has surprised him" for such characters. And if your players whine about NPCs doing Neo-dodges when a PC opens up at them with a FA shotgun from behind a corner, remind them of the alternative.
nezumi
While Derek has a good point, it seems to me like that should result in a penalty to the sniper, not a bonus to the target. Increase cover modifiers, don't let the sniper get a full 3 turns to aim, things like that. Turn that TN of 3 attack into a TN of 5. That should give your PCs at least a decent chance of surviving an attack, on top of all the other issues people are bringing up (it's hard to know where a person will be when, etc.)
Derek
QUOTE (nezumi)
While Derek has a good point,

Of course I do...heh biggrin.gif

What I am trying to say, and I think you all got it, is that runners aren't your average everyday ordinary joes. Some of them are combat hardened vets, and they will automaticically take some of the precautions Crusher Bob mentioned, even if the players of said characters don't specifically say they do.

However you want to rule it, whether penalties to the sniper, allowing a suprise test, allowing combat pool, etc... a sniper should not automatically take out a combat hardened shadowrunner. A newbie on his first run, maybe (of course, that first time runner might be even more paranoid), but someone who lives a life of paranoia, such as a runner, no.

Derek
twofalls
Excellent thread. I'm very glad to see some folks taking the sides of the PC's with regards to this topic. Trying to make the game feel like a real situation should take second place to fun. Having your character shot out from under you by a sniper isn't fun. Shadowrun = game after all.

Again, great thread. smile.gif
Krieger
It really doesn't matter if the players are combat hardened military vets who have been under fire from more people than live their entire neighborhood at once, they still won't be able to see or hear a bullet coming from even 100m away when the person on the other end is also said military vet, trained not to be seen or heard. While I realize this isn't necessarily an easy thing to pull off for the sniper himself, as Crusher pointed out so well, I just can't see a "combat ready" character getting out of a situation like that without relying on Magic or constant paranoid surveillence within a 1 km radius of themselves at all times. IMO, there really is no excuse to give said character any dodge at all unless they do.

If you think this is too deadly (which it is - it's "one shot one kill" for a reason), Bob provided many solutions to the problem that will at least make it harder to be hit, and the Magic proposed earlier will also help. As a GM, I would never throw an all-out sniper at a team unless I knew they could handle it.

Also, to further illustrate Austere Emancipator's point, I'll throw out that for Presidential security, specifically, they send out their own team of Secret Service snipers a day or two beforehand to check out the area where the President will be. They spend an entire day detailing the best locations for a sniper, lines of sight, the whole kit-'n-kaboodle. Then, on the day the President is actually present, they set up their own snipers to cover the area. If you plan on lobbing a couple bullets at the President, you damn well better be able to hide, and you damn well better have one hell of an escape plan.

...hello Mr. Ashcroft. biggrin.gif
mfb
krieger, you can't see a bullet coming from five meters away. what you're dodging is intent. and if you suspect there's a sniper in the area, you can attempt to dodge that intent without ever knowing where he is.
Krieger
But what I'm saying is that even if you know for a fact that a sniper is in the area, unless you have some mystical force working for you, you can't know when or where the bullet is coming from, or even that is is coming until it hits you or the trash can next to you, and therefore can't dodge it. If you don't see or hear the bullet leave the gun, you really have no chance of dodging. It's hard enough to dodge a bullet that you see coming. The way I've always rationalized dodging in SR is that you see someone's finger tighten on the trigger or their mouth tighten in anticipation (enter "intent") and jump to one side, because once they pull that trigger that bullet will be across the room before you can finish blinking, or in most cases in a nice fleshy pillow. If you can't see them, you can't infer intent.

Granted, I've never had any kind of real life experience with any of this, so if anyone can add some insight there, please do.
Bane
Edit: I guess I'm a slow typer. the following was meant to come after mfb's post.
True, if you want to take it literally. I think what he meant was that you can't see intent, as you put it, from 500m away. It's pretty easy to judge what will happen when that ganger is pointing his gun at you, and thus pretty easy to dodge. The same is not true for someone pointing a gun at you from really far away, and from a place that is hidden from view.

Now, I'm not saying that a veteran runner can't take precautions -- of course he can. If he does, it's going to be that much harder for the sniper to shoot him. But a character cannot take the same precautions he takes when facing someone with a gun pointed at him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, when no apparent threat is visible. Just because there's the possibility of getting shot doesn't mean he knows when it will happen, or from what direction. And if he doesn't know that, I think it'd be pretty hard to dodge.
Derek
QUOTE (mfb)
krieger, you can't see a bullet coming from five meters away. what you're dodging is intent. and if you suspect there's a sniper in the area, you can attempt to dodge that intent without ever knowing where he is.

Exactly, mfb.

Not to toot my own horn, but I just had the dubios pleasure of spending 7 months in Iraq. While there, I developed some reflexes and reactions that I am now trying to get rid of. For example, loud noises bother me somewhat, and even in the middle of Hawaii, at my home, I still am a little suspicious of things. I'm smart enough to realize that these are traits that aren't conducive to daily life in my normal existence, and thus, I am trying to lose those types of reactions (until I get (un)lucky enough to back to Iraq)

I also realize that if I lived (or worked) in a combat zone for my normal existence, I would have highly developed survival reflexes like described above. No, I wouldn't see a bullet coming from 100m away, but I would know where to walk to be the least exposed, and where to look out for danger areas. Most players don't have this experience, but many characters do, so even if the player doesn't describe his characters actions as such, the character is probably doing something along those lines, and you should give him the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not he gets some type of roll, whether combat pool, etc...

Derek
mfb
krieger, bullets move too fast for you to see. and most bullets move faster than the speed of sound, which means that by the time you hear the sound of the gunshot, you've already been hit or missed by the bullet. it is impossible to dodge a bullet that has already been fired--you can't even sense it.

and, yeah, if you're not expecting a sniper, you're not going to be able to make him miss you. if you are expecting a sniper, however, or you have reason to believe you might run into one, you should be able to dodge, even if you can't see him.
Bane
Okay, before this goes further I think a clarification needs to be made. There is definitely a difference between dodging intent and dodging a bullet. In fact, it's much like the difference between sexual abstinence and condom use. Bear with me.

You can try to avoid an event all you want. In the case of avoiding a sniper's bullet, things like limiting your exposure to outdoor environments and open spaces, walking quickly, etc., these things all make it harder for the sniper to act on his intent. Game mechanics-wise, things like forcing the sniper to be closer than he originally planned, increasing target numbers, getting less rounds to aim, etc.

However, when the time comes for an event to actually happen, if that bullet is heading towards you it means your preventive measures have failed. when this happens, the best thing the character can do is slap on some armor and take it like a man. biggrin.gif

I realize there is a difference between what a player would do and what a character would do. The GM can take this into account any way he chooses -- I listed a few options earlier in this post. The fact remains that intent and a bullet are two very different things.
Krieger
QUOTE
by the time you hear the sound of the gunshot, you've already been hit or missed by the bullet. it is impossible to dodge a bullet that has already been fired--you can't even sense it.

...which is why snipers are so deadly, and the reason that you have to dodge on intent. But, like I said, unless you can see the person firing the gun, you can't infer intent, and therefore can not dodge.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Krieger)
QUOTE
by the time you hear the sound of the gunshot, you've already been hit or missed by the bullet. it is impossible to dodge a bullet that has already been fired--you can't even sense it.

...which is why snipers are so deadly, and the reason that you have to dodge on intent. But, like I said, unless you can see the person firing the gun, you can't infer intent, and therefore can not dodge.

.. or likely survive.
Krieger
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 4 2004, 03:59 PM)
if you are expecting a sniper, however, or you have reason to believe you might run into one, you should be able to dodge, even if you can't see him.

No, no you shouldn't. Like you said, you can't sense a bullet, and once it's fired it either hits or misses.
mfb
actually, krieger, that's untrue. if you're versed at all in the way snipers work--be it through study or through actual combat experience--you can figure out where snipers might be placed, and then dodge based on that. if you figure out that there's a sniper in the bell tower over there, and duck and weave every time you cross a space that's exposed to the bell tower, you should get to make a dodge test.

the real problem, here, is that SR basically ignores a certain skillset that applies in real life. weeks, months, and years of training go into combat survival in real life--things like avoiding snipers, room-clearing, movement under fire, whatever. in SR, all that training and experience is bundled up into one combat pool--and mages have the best combat pool. if there were skills and stuff that boosted combat pool, SR would make a good deal more sense.
Krieger
QUOTE (mfb)
if you figure out that there's a sniper in the bell tower over there, and duck and weave every time you cross a space that's exposed to the bell tower, you should get to make a dodge test.

I would say this is represented by Athletic dodging, and in this case you would absolutely get to roll your dodge tests. But that's because you know he's there. This is a new element in our little debate. I completely agree with you.
Bane
QUOTE (mfb)
actually, krieger, that's untrue. if you're versed at all in the way snipers work--be it through study or through actual combat experience--you can figure out where snipers might be placed, and then dodge based on that. if you figure out that there's a sniper in the bell tower over there, and duck and weave every time you cross a space that's exposed to the bell tower, you should get to make a dodge test.

the real problem, here, is that SR basically ignores a certain skillset that applies in real life. weeks, months, and years of training go into combat survival in real life--things like avoiding snipers, room-clearing, movement under fire, whatever. in SR, all that training and experience is bundled up into one combat pool--and mages have the best combat pool. if there were skills and stuff that boosted combat pool, SR would make a good deal more sense.

This is true. However, can you imagine a character "ducking and weaving" down a street in broad daylight all the time, just on the off-chance there is a sniper waiting for him? What Krieger said is true: If the character has a good reason to believe someone is aiming at him, he can take preventive measures like ducking and weaving. To think that a character is doing this constantly is ridiculous.
mfb
well, that's the thing. in real life, people duck and dodge based purely on the knowledge that there might be someone in that bell tower, because that bell tower is the best spot to snipe from.

and, no, characters shouldn't be ducking and weaving down the street all the time. if they're going somewhere to do something illegal, though, and there are spots around where snipers might be placed? hell yes they should be ducking and weaving as they make their three-to-five second rushes from cover to cover. at least, that's what i learned, even in the minimal amount of combat training i got as a non-combat arms soldier.

i'm not saying you should get a dodge test if you're walking down the street to the grocery store and someone takes a shot at you from the roof of the building across the street. but if you're in a combat environment, and you're not an idiot, i think you probably should.
BitBasher
QUOTE
in SR, all that training and experience is bundled up into one combat pool--and mages have the best combat pool.
I have a little problem with this. Combat pool has nothing to do with training nor experience. At all. Combat pool is purely attribute based. A rookie in the same physical and mental condition as a veteran will have the exact same combat pool, yet the vetern will waste him in skill levels and tactical abilities (all skills in SR terms).
Krieger
QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 4 2004, 04:15 PM)
and, no, characters shouldn't be ducking and weaving down the street all the time. if they're going somewhere to do something illegal, though, and there are spots around where snipers might be placed? hell yes they should be ducking and weaving as they make their three-to-five second rushes from cover to cover. at least, that's what i learned, even in the minimal amount of combat training i got as a non-combat arms soldier.

This is where we get the movement modifier to Ranged Combat Tests. They still don't know when to jump out of the way.

Although, I can see them being able to roll Athletics if they explicitly say that's what they're attempting to do (or if they don't, if you're a nice GM biggrin.gif), and gain the dodge dice from that only.
Critias
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
in SR, all that training and experience is bundled up into one combat pool--and mages have the best combat pool.
I have a little problem with this. Combat pool has nothing to do with training nor experience. At all. Combat pool is purely attribute based. A rookie in the same physical and mental condition as a veteran will have the exact same combat pool, yet the vetern will waste him in skill levels and tactical abilities (all skills in SR terms).

Right. Which is what MFB was complaining about, too, it looks like.
Zeel De Mort
QUOTE (mfb)
if there were skills and stuff that boosted combat pool, SR would make a good deal more sense.

Like Small Unit Tactics, and Tactical Computers/Combat Sense you mean?


If your character has some reason to believe there may be a sniper in the bell tower, and moves quickly/changes direction/etc when crossing the sniper's potential field of view, then yes, you could probably use combat pool and make a dodge test. But like people said, you're not likely to spend your whole life thinking there's a sniper out to get you and dodging and weaving whenever you're in open spaces. Or if you do there's something a bit beyond paranoia going on there!

If the sniper is half decent he will catch you somewhere you may not expect it, like outside of any combat situations, when you're on your way to buy a newspaper. Even there you can use some military knowledge skill of your choosing to lessen the chance that he'll get a good shot at you, just by walking on the right side of the street, staying between pedestrians and so on. So he'll get lots of pluses to his target numbers, but you still wouldn't get to dodge the shot unless you knew exactly when he was going to fire it. i.e. if you could see him, or he'd already fired and missed, or you had some magical effects going on, something like that.
Derek
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)
. But like people said, you're not likely to spend your whole life thinking there's a sniper out to get you and dodging and weaving whenever you're in open spaces. Or if you do there's something a bit beyond paranoia going on there!

Actually, though, people do spend long periods of time (years+) doing that very thing, as a survival skill, because their daily life requires it.

Anyways, combat pool is a poor way to model it, but its what we have. Come up with a better way and use it. But don't assume that a sniper automatically kills people every time he shoots. They don't. You can take my word on this one.

Derek
mfb
krieger, it's more than a simple TN mod. you're actively attempting to not be hit--to me, that sounds like dodging. like i said, you're dodging intent; intent can be discerned from simply knowing that there is probably someone nearby who has a gun and doesn't like you. the athletic-dodging-only thing doesn't really work, for me, because this sort of training is wholly unrelated to the ability to (say) run fast, or climb a rope, or do other athletic stuff. if there were some magical Combat Experience skill that you could roll, instead of Athletics, i'd probably agree with you. since there isn't, i don't.

and yes, zeel, like i said--if you're just walking down the street, not in 'combat mode', then no, no dodge for you.
Krieger
Good point. I always got the impression that Athletics was pretty much anything involving a test of physical prowess, short of any other skills, like running across the mouth of an alley in a weaving-bobbing sort of way so as to avoid getting shot. That was my reasoning. I'm gonna have to stand by it, though. You might look at it as running that much faster or high-stepping your way there; I don't know, I'm not exceptionally athletic myself, though I can throw a mean frisbee. biggrin.gif

Okay, I just though of a slightly better rationalization:
A person who is more athletic would have a better time dodging (i.e. not falling over while trying to duck and dodge his way across the alley as fast as possible), and this is represented by the Athletics roll to see how well you can dodge (represented by the amount of dodge dice you get off the test). Is that better?
mfb
er, well. i agree that athletics would be one way to gain CP for that. it's just that there are a lot of other factors which should come into play, most of which are related to training/experience. because training and experience do not affect combat pool in SR (except in SUT), i don't think it's fair to limit CP useage to what you can get from athletics.
Krieger
Hmm... I can definitely see that, but it is just a shitty situation to be in, after all. I mean, what about the sniper's training and experience? Wouldn't that kind of cancel out the other person's training? I guess that would leave it at whatever CP the target can scrounge up from an Athletic test. I'm not so sure about that one, though, having never experienced said training or... experience. Damn redundancies.
Zeel De Mort
mfb: Fair enough. Then I think I agree with you. There's a case to be made for getting a dodge test if you're in "combat mode". Possibly, as a house rule, with a modifier on it depending on the situation. By the book, the sniper, if he's ambusing you, is quite likely to surprise you and thus deny you your combat pool. So again, since combat pool doesn't really guage all these things too accurately, you may want to house rule that certain other military/security knowledge or active skills apply in some fashion.

Derek: I never said that people automatically die every time the sniper fires a shot. He still has to hit the target which, if it's moving, behind some kind of cover, and possibly even camoflagued etc, could be quite difficult. But if he does hit, and has surprised the target, it's not looking too good from there.

True if you spend a long period of your time in a combat zone then you'll constantly be doing your best to avoid being a target for snipers and thus making yourself harder to hit, but in terms of game mechanics you can't always claim to be expecting a hit and thus get to dodge all sniper shots.


Anyway, I guess we're more or less agreed on these things. So what would be a reasonable way to model "combat experience" as a skill?
Krieger
Maybe complementary knowledge skills in some way? I'd get into it more, but I really have to finish off this project I was supposed to be working on for the last hour, and then I need to leave, so I'll let you guys hash it out for a while.
mfb
to a point. there's not much you can learn that will help you negate a target ducking and weaving in three-to-five second rushes. all you can do is up your ability to quickly acquire and fire on a target, which means raising your rifle skill. snipers' training is geared more towards camouflaging, infiltration/exfiltration, and other things that will keep your position hidden for as long as possible. if the sniper is good, he can fire on targets all day long, and no one will know exactly where he's shooting from.

i'd make Combat Experience work basically the same way as SUT, to be honest. i'd allow characters with the skill to use CP in surprise situations. the limit on how much CP could be used during surprise would be limited in two ways: first, no more than 1/2 of your Combat Experience skill; second, no more than 1/2 of the success the character got on the surprise test.
Krieger
Actually, the impression I got is that sniper training is well rounded, spending equal time on shooting, spotting, hiding, cam'ing, etc, though the main emphasis is definitely on shooting and hiding.
Zeel De Mort
Also, while we're at it, anyone have any house rules relating to surprise tests? I'm not entirely happy with the way they work in some cases.

For example let's say a few fairly average soldiers are ambushing a crack team of wired-to-the-hilt cyber mercenaries. The average soldiers have reaction 5 and the mercs have reaction 15. Despite being inferior to the mercs in stats, the soldiers have none the less managed to conceal themselves from the mercs as they move forward, and are waiting in ambush.

One soldier announces he'll fire a shot at one of the mercs and everyone resolves a surprise test. Despite having a -2 for being the ambushers (and possibly further mods at GM discretion, although it's still tn2), the soldiers ALL get beaten on the surprise test by the mercs. Thus none of the soldiers can take offensive action against any of the mercs, and in fact can't even take free actions since they were beaten by ALL their opponents.

So now the soldiers are stuck in their ambush positions, and can't do anything, not even use combat pool should the mercs shoot at them. Technically the mercs don't know the soldiers are there, and would at least have to make perception tests to be able to shoot back. Meanwhile the soldiers are frozen to the spot for a fraction of a second, presumably amazed by the superhuman reflexes of the mercs. That poor guy that instigated the ambush doesn't even finish the act of pulling the trigger.

It's a mess!

What can be done?
mfb
right. i was referring to the non-shooting part of the training. snipers negate their targets' attempt to duck and dodge by raising their weapon skill--more successes = better chance to hit, even against dodging targets.

we don't allow an ambushed character to make a surprise test at all, if the ambushed character does not detect the presence of the ambusher before the ambush is sprung.
Krieger
The way I read it was that... hold on, let me get the quote.
QUOTE
To resolve surprise situations, all participants must make Reaction Tests. (p. 109, BBB)

It doesn't leave much room for argument, as I see it.

If the ambushees successfully spot the ambushers, then the whole situation is avoided and appropriate actions are taken. If they don't, however, they still get a Reaction test, because they're reacting to the ambushers popping out of nowhere. And if the people being ambushed are a highly wired group of Mercs, yeah, the ambushers had better be up to par, or they have no business being there.
Zeel De Mort
Well true, but supposing the soldiers are really well hidden and the mercs, for some unknown reason, are really poor on perception, or just roll badly. If the soldiers are well set up, they could pull the trigger without popping up at all, they could be training their weapons on the mercs from a hundred yards away.

I don't mind the mercs thrashing the soldiers on the surprise test and being insanely fast, but it just seems odd that the soldier who forces the surprise test literally can't even finish pulling the trigger and the mercs know they're going to be surprised before it even happens.
mfb
well, the "no surprise check if you don't see them" thing is a house rule. your postulation is untrue, however--you can surprise someone who's looking right at you, as long as they're not expecting you to do anything surprising (like, say, shoot them). i call to the witness stand the movie Ronin, in which the infallible De Niro ambushes someone with a cup of coffee.
Zeel De Mort
Haha yeah I think Sean Bean's character is largely in that film just to make De Niro's look better.

It all works reasonably well if you can both see each other. I have no problem at all with the cyber monster completely surprising the average lowbie security guard, even when the guard was the one initiating the attack and the cyber guy wasn't expecting it in the slightest.

I guess the no surprise roll at all thing is as good and quick a fix as anything I can come up with in the short time I've spent thinking about it. Thanks.
Krieger
heh, how true, and what a great movie. Zeel, that's what we've been debating this whole thread, essentially. Replace "sniper bullet" with "assault rifle round" or "explosive device".
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012