I do actually disagree with you here Kanada. There are numerous reasons, both IC and OOC, for a mage (or shaman or adept) to trade one or two points of magic for implants.

The actual Magic Attribute doesn't come into things often once Initiation comes into the picture. Force of spells and spirits, range of effects, etc. which aren't likely to make an extreme difference to an Initiate. A case can be made for keeping the actual Magic stat down when it comes to magic loss tests (higher=easier to lose magic) as well. An Initiated mage doesn't lose a lot in the trade when all things are considered.

I've already expressed my opinion of this, here.

In short, I think you can feel your Magic Attribute just as one can feel their muscle Strength. When you have a flu and everything feels like it weighs a ton it doens't matter if you can still lift 80% of your previous abilities because you still feel weaker. Game mechanics do not express this detail for any attribute, but I feel it is implict in what they represent. Magic attribute is also visible to other magic users; they can see your weakness.

I'm not saying the Awakened will never get 'ware, just that it is much less often than mundanes.

And I never claimed that the ratio of 'wared awakened-to-mundane would even be close. I just stated that there are some very good reasons, from both in game (even given the ability to 'feel one's magic') and from a min-max point of view, for an awakened character to get implants.

well I managed to find the very first char that was created in sr2 using 50!! points <I repeat, this was done by mistake, we believed this was what it should be>..
and below I got one of the current players to fax me his char sheet, I copied what was legible on it..
the gist of the matter is, to me, while the first one is strong etc etc he doesnt `break the game` as I would expect a street sam would with 8 times starting max resources <8 million>. & the second one the one made for sr3 to me isnt overpowered at all.. mileages may vary.. only his initiative is a little high but since in sr3 they nerfed initiative passes thats not a huge deal anymore..
well here goes..

Sr2 character made with 50 points, sorry this is the last sheet I could find which was after playing for a while so he is as last used <7 or so years ago >

Jorge Sanchez aka red shade
human, M, age 22
Racial bias, japanese, orks, 3/2
Home town:Seattle
Karma pool 3.3 , good karma 11.7
Attributes: (with all modifiers) Body 2(9) , Quickness 1(, Strength 5(,Charisma 2, Int 6, Will 6, Essence/magic 6, Reaction 7(9) initiative 9+4d6
Dice Pools
Combat: 13

Skills:
Astral perception, Combat sense +3d6, Improved Reflexes +3d6, killing hands S, Pain Resistance 9 boxes, impr. attributes & skills. Improved senses, low light and thermographic vision. Armed combat 4 Specialisation mono whip 8 (16), firearms spec assault rifle 9, stealth 1(7), athletics 1(7), Wing tsun kung fu 6, first aid 3, 2-wheeler control 2, computers 1.

equipment:
Defensive:
secure ultra vest, secure jacket, forearm guards, hvy sec armor, security helmet with magnifyx10, low light, thermo, ultrasound, smartgun, tranceiver, track signal 5, signal locator, hud display 100 Mp, respirator, chem seal.
offensive:
Ak-98 assault rifle, smartgun, range finder, gasvent3, shoulder padding, <-1/-2 tn/-4 recoil>, grenade launcher. about 30 odd mini grenades stock.
colt manhunter, ucas permit, laser sight & sm gun link.
Dikoted ares monosword 10S
Monowhip 10 s 1/2 impact. in finger compartment.
enchanted but not bonded & never used monowhip, weapon focus 3.
ammo : 492 bullets, 25 flechette, 25 gel, 20 rubber bullets, 40x expl ammo, 8x apds bullets 1x law
misc gear:
Bug scanner 12, c3, weight1, jammer rating 6, white noise gen rat 6, signal locator 8, wristwatch comp 200 MP +phone flipup screen <water resistant>
tortoise fuchi cyber 6
3 port phones one of them legal. one custom 1500 nuyen powerful lamp
camera, micro cam corder conc 8, micro recorder conc 9, micro transceiver conc 18. some software, jewelry, docwagon basic, high lifestyle,
car: mits. nightsky
also inflatable magic invis undetectable >30 m motorboat <never used, comes from a published adventure.. kept to remind gm some things shouldnt be used in game>
last ditch:
4 lvl 8 antidote patches, 2 lvl 6 stim patches, trauma patch.

character was created twice, first time he was killed within 10 game minutes by a single sniper shot using regular ammo.
as said this was made by error as we then believed resource points= poits to spend. however as a 50 pts char should have been TOTALLY overpowering if you are only supposed to use 6.. but he wasnt..even though he had been munchkinised a bit..so we started seeing that the canon adept just didnt suit the playing style we wanted for him <close combat version of a street sam with no chrome or bio whatsoever.. only magic>
since then we adopted the 35 point rule with a few restrictions as stated in a previous post. I expect he would be even less overpowered in sr3 since weapons have increased deadlyness, gas vents are better so the tn for saving against automated weaponry in general has increased...< a BIG deal to someone who has to run in the open..and note athletics doesnt really help you dodge.. nor much in real life (play paintball once.. it will free you from many misconceptions.. I still cannot fathom the reason for the +2 vs running targets at close range..) >

now below is a 35 point SR3 adept created & being used but not really munchkinised..

Jack, age 17, Human Male
Home Town: Seattle or Tokyo
Karma pool 0.5, Good Karma 3.5
Attributes(all inc) : Body 9, Quickness 9, Str 9, Cha 2, int 5, will 6, Essence/magic 6 , reaction 7 , initiative 13+4d6 <the + initiative power of adept has improved in sr3.. it now equals wired>
Dice pools
Combat: 10

Skills
Astral perception, killing hands M, improved senses, taste, low light vision, thermo, pain resistance 6 boxes stun & phys, body control :1
Stealth 3, Athletics 4, Unarmed combat spec Bujinko N. T. 6, Edged Weapons->Katana 7 ? (13?) , assault rifles 4 in aka 98. , computer 3, Build/repair Katana ->4 Negotiation 3, bike 3, car 2
lang skills English 4 Spanish 2 Japanese 2 german 2. Knowledge skills Acad. knowledge 6th world 4, Fishing 4, Acad. knowledge Biology 5. Backgr knowl. 4 <special etiquette skill relating to .

equipment:
Defensive: sec jacket, lined coat,camo full suit..
offensive: Dikoted Katana, some 18 assorted mini grenades 6 off 6 def 6 concussion, 20 shurikens, 20 thr knives,

Misc.
binoculars, flash light, climbing and survival gear, subvocal micro, ultrasound detector/emitter 6, phone, table top computer.
car:yamaha rapier <cant drive tho>

uh where were the adept points spent in the second one

Looks like most of them went into attribute increases and Improved Reflexes 3. It does seem a little fishy, though; it'd be much better if the guy would actually ennumerate the adept's powers and how much he paid for each of them.

That said, I find already that you're really squandering your points. You've got skill in Edged Weapons *and* unarmed combat, plus Killing Hands. You have 12 levels of Pain Resistance when you almost never need more than 2-4. You've spend large numbers of points upping your stats to their Maximums right at chargen, which I guess isn't *bad*, but is indeed very suboptimal.But even with all those PPts, you still haven't boosted your Stealth or Athletics, the two cornerstones for adepts.

But even so, your adept is still ridiculously powerful. He's got an initiative that can be matched by none short of the most tricked-out post-chargen street sam, for starters. you can hand anyone their ass with two completely seperate melee skills, and even if you happen to get hurt you won't be taking any wound mods until you're deep into Serious wound territory, and even then it's only a +1. You have the Body and Str of a troll, the Karma pool of a human, the Quickness of a tricked-out Elf, and you have natural vision and sensory mods that beat out all of 'em. The only thing you can't instantly succeed at are Stealth and Athletics tests, and that's only because you decided to be godlike powerful in two completely seperate melee skills.

Tell me again this guy isn't powerful?

besides which, this just proves that you can make a sub-par character. anyone with half a mind towards using his power points wisely can create a horrible monstrosity with that amount of points.

I'm not even sure this guy is sub-par, actually. It would take a heavily tricked-out million-nuyen sam with 'ware from M&M unavailable at chargen to beat this guy in initiative, stats, and special abilities. Even then the sam wouldn't be able to beat him in the senseware department, and he would never be able to touch this guy in melee combat. The sam would have to go near the top of his power curve to even hope of challenging this very sub-optimal, generalist adept in combat, and only then by spending the vast majority of his Essence and insane amounts of cash.

Honestly I'd like to see what the other characters in this group look like, and why they're not completely outclassed by this sub-optimal character.

With 35 power points, you might as well start playing Champions.

-Siege

Yeah. I really think your game just suffered from the Adept not knowing what he was doing, or maybe a more experienced and creative Sammy player, or something. There's really just plain no way a 35 power point Adept shouldn't run around kicking ass like Neo (IE, the other players a very very distant second and third place, but very occasionally somehow managing to look a teensy bit cool).

With said Adept, being what he is, I say he is nasty. The real tricky thing is that A sam can be better,and when you are talking about 35 power points, you are or at least shouldn't be talking about normal chatacters. I can make a few scary street sams. Ones that have in some what normal looking,and have enough armour ro soak troll punches and laugh.

But really see what you can do with 6 million nuyen. that to me is about the same as 35 power points....

yeah but cynic the 35 point adepts were being played alongside STANDARD STARTING CHARACTERS

haha, i remember those. you had the crazy, arrogant, loudmouth six-million-nuyen samurai with -7.6 essence, and the colorless, personality-burnt-out-by-too-much-cyber cyberzombie with -2.25 essence (who is, judging from the picture, a pretty pretty ballerina).