I think we've been over this before.

Even though it doesn't get quite as ridiculous as this guy initially thinks, any reason for such a good surgeon to be running the shadows is going to be pretty cheesy.

my native language is english. and, yeah, i'm aware of how ridiculous this argument sounds, in text, but that's still the way the sentence reads to me. if i had written it, and intended that options be used no more than two times in a single surgery, i'd have--well, i'd have used exactly the phrase i just used. "Unless otherwise stated, the same option can be used no more than two times."

i'm not gonna say you guys are all wrong, or anything. but it honestly never occured to me, nor quite a few of the people i play with, that "twice" in that context didn't mean "more than once". if it were just me that'd read it that way, i'd change my mind and agree that it really did mean twice, and no more. because i'm not the only one, i'm less inclined to do so.

I honestly don't know how you can read "twice" as "more than once." While the two are similar, they are not the same. I won't go in to semantics of word definition and how this can be that but that can't be this (square = rectangle rectangle != square argument).

It's your game, but "twice" means "two times."

*shrug* call it adaptivity. you hang around people who misuse the language enough (eg, 90% of the english-speaking world and 99% of the US), and you start automatically shunting everything through a little interpreter that translates things people say into what you think they mean. i don't say "twice" when i mean "more than once", but i've heard it used that way.

I just had this really funny idea of making a sammy that says "twice" whenever he means more than once.

Teammate looking at bullet-ridden body: "Geez, how many times did you shoot him??"
Sammy: "Twice."
Teammate: "uh.."
Sammy: "Somethin' wrong?"
Teammate: "No, no, not at all.."

heheh.

HAH! i knew i wasn't insane! you know why it says "twice"? because it's talking about the two negative options a surgeon has to list on his procedure. it doesn't state, anywhere, anything about how many times a positive option can be used.

aHA... that, indeed, does make sense.
Yowzer. 60% essence reduction just from precise surgery? Does that seem just a tad bit... excessive to anyone else?

no, only 40% reduction. 60% multiplier.

heh, just to bring further ridicule onto myself, i'll tell you all about my first character, when i read "80% less" as "80% reduction," for alphaware.

Ah, yes, that's what I meant... heh.

As for your first character...
Well... I'm guessing it wasn't a long time before your GM caught that little misconception, eh?
If not, then I can definitely see you scoring one for the technology side of the "tech vs. magic" debate... Haha

hilariously, the GM never noticed. the fact that he had all of the cyberware never came up.

*Manages to avoid spilling Mountain Dew on the cat* All of it?

~J

I'm guessing you were only using the main book, so "all the cyberware" would be almost affordable as alphaware with 1 mil to spend. I also doubt you would buy boosted reflexes and wired reflexes when eeh rules say they don't work together (but I may be wrong about that one).

For what its worth, this actually came up in a conversation with Rob Boyle a while back and he confirmed the text meant "two times". Nothing official or anything, we were just chatting at a con about what a pain editing can be, but apparently he gets mails about the "twice thing" every so often, though he hadn't figured out why people were having a problem since the English was spot on and clear.

Just for the sheer goofiness of it - a doc probably could operate on himself, with benefit of a pain editor and being jacked into a Valhalla Medical Drone, provided the GM allows for a full sensory shunt and what boils down to drone rigging the medi-unit.

Although I have to second the "cutting into the brain while still conscious" would just be a little absurd...unless it's a Star Trek plot device and a nubile woman is lurking in the background...

-Siege

back to the topic, I've mentioned elsewhere that I've never seen a reason not to fuse the archetypes and toss in some phys-mage love for maximum locked and loaded potential. It gets worse when you remember that technically, phys-mages are allowed to select a tradition from mits or any other sourcebook and are entitled to all its bonuses. But I think my favorite part is roleplaying a Coyote Samurai.

Eh - Phys-mages can be fun, but I've found they tend to be more trouble than they're worth to put together.

Oh, bizarre thought - "Facial Sculpt" and "Cognition" - now you really can have two conversations going on at once...

Gawd, wait until the next adept release and we get body sculpt...

-Siege

Re-reading the M&M, I think it is possible to implant cyber for free. Since there is no limit to the amount of times a positive option may be used, then with basic cyber with 20 Essense Reduction, you'll have 100% reduction, 0% multiplier. Of course, you need a Rating 20 Medical facility for that.

true, they can be an awful lot of work to assemble, but if you have the time and the inclination, they're not only totally munched as start characters, but a heck of a lot of fun to run... especially when you start using your cyberware as talismans for geasing.

"I'll geas all six levels of magical power to a gold cross covered in bone"
"Sounds like a nice exotic talisman."
::implants a gold cross into character's forehead and attunes it::


----
And the GM will be grinning as you try to get a doc who can roll that many successes, even with a medical facility that snazzy.

Yes, but now the GM does not need cyberzombies anymore.

Cyberzombies are like Dragons.

When you see one, you know you've gone too far.

-Siege

Really? Canon doesn't think so. Remember SotF?

Anyway, you can now have a Essense 6 samurai who is loaded with everything in the books, be afraid of the mundane, be very afraid.

And once you see one, you see the other. Often in the same novel.

Tot, did you see what Synner said, by the by?

Yes, I did. But I am going by mfb's defination that the Twice option only applies to the Negatives, just for the sake of argument. I would stick the Twice to both Positives and Negatives personally.

Well, by the very way that the surgery rules work, you can't have more than two negative options. I mean... a surgeon can get zero successes, or botch, but they can't get negative successes.

what Bokujin said. the highest-rating gear available is delta-equipped, which is rating 8. moreover, the max rating availble to shadowrunners is 6, so you self-surgery cyberdocs are going to be limited there, too.

edit: bah, i hate being wrong. the shadowFAQ guys say the 2-repetition limit applies to all options.

Besides, even if you could the 8 Essence reduction options would raise your surgery TN by 16. And you need to get 10 successes to install the thing. None of that's happenning any time soon.

With Standard grade and full options, a character can get up to 6.67 points' worth of cyberware. To match the Essence cost of Standard grade and full options, an adept needs 12 karma (3 to join an initiatory group, 9 to initiate with a group and an ordeal).

With Alphaware and full options, a character can get up to 8.3 Essence points' worth of cyberware. To match the Essence cost of Alphaware and full options, an adept needs 34 karma (3 +9 +10 +12).

With Betaware and full options, a character can get up to 12.1 Essence points' worth of cyberware. To match the Essence cost of Betaware and full options, an adept needs 78 karma (3 +9 +10 +12 +13 +15 +16).

With Deltaware and full options, a character can get up to 13.3 Essence points' worth of cyberware. To match the Essence cost of Deltaware and full options, an adept needs 115 karma (3 +9 +10 +12 +13 +15 +16 +18 +19).

It could be done by burning 10 Karma.

By the way, mfb, the Karma thing? You are off by quite a bit. Base Magic 6, Geas all, Power Points value 8. Exceeds Basic.

Inititate once to match and exceed Alpha.

Initiate 4 times to match Delta. 47 Karma.

Are surgery options available to starting characters? If not, that screws with your numbers, as the Sammy would gain no benefit from the options on his initial cyber.

toturi, an adept whose power points are all geased operates is significantly fuxx0red. a samurai isn't going to have to worry about his cyberware turning off in the light of the full moon. in addition, a sam who takes a D hit can get surgery done to get all his cyber back in good working condition (replacing it completely, if necessary). an adept who takes a D hit is going to lose a full power point more than 50% of the time--more, if he's initiated at all.

surgery options are available to starting characters as edges, if the GM allows. to be honest, i can't imagine why anyone would take essence-reducing surgery options on anything less than betaware, but that's just me.

i suppose if your GM is letting you get deltaware, he'll allow you to take geasa like that.

Heh, deltaware was so rare in my campaign that - well, in point of fact, there was I think precisely one piece. And that came after the runners had done a "personal favour" run for Richard Villiers as part of a long storyline leading up to the breakup of Fuchi, when the samurai negotiated taking payment in kind rather than in cash (with complete barefaced cheek he asked for delta'd MBW-4. Villiers laughed and said "That's two and a half million nuyen's worth of pay". The samurai replied "Not to you, you make it." I actually thought that was a fair point, and let him have it).

Wait, no, someone stole some delta-grade cyberyes from a corp assassin, but they didn't get the full essence reduction on them because they were second hand.

With 35 points:

IA: Stealth 6, IA: Athletics 6, IA: Unarmed Combat 6 (if I read your post correctly), Astral Perception, Combat Sense 3, Enhanced Perception 6, Improved Reflexes 3, Improved Sense (pick sixteen), Killing Hands (Deadly), Missile Parry, Rapid Healing 6, Improved Quickness 3, Improved Strength 3.

I would call that fairly insane, even if you drop IA: Unarmed Combat and kick up Body.

~J

Fairly? Might as well tell the Sammie he gets free Delta.

The trick that seemed to work for us most of all was the Bonus Force Points edge (SRC p.32 - sorry, I don't have the page reference for the 3rd ed SRC). That gave the Physad a total of 12 points to play with.

So to return to my theoretical gunkata physmage:

Improved Reflexes 3 (5), Improved Pistols 2 (1), Improved Unarmed 2 (1), Improved Senses (Flare Comp, Lowlight, Scent, Hearing) (1), Sixth Sense 4 (1), Mystic Armour 2 (1), +2 Quickness (1), Magic Rating 1 (1).

Alternatively, introduce a new edge of Bonus Adept Points, cost it and restrict levels to suit your campaign - say a maximum of 3 additional points.

Figures Of course, you can just create the edge if you want it available in your campaign. Say, 2pt of edge per additional Adept point, with a max of +3?

kagetenshi, why is this insane?

you end up with a 9 in all physical scores adept with initiative somewhat less than a street sam. & good close combat skills.

coupled with with a high unarmed combat and/or armed combat, which is as it should be for a physad.

remember the sr rules, unless you have a @@@ skill in unarmed/armed you will never kill anyone with it, imho a physad hacking away at you should be DEADLIER than a sam shooting at you for game balance.. why? that physad had to FIRST get there while you were shooting at him, check sr movement rules, that isnt as easy as it sounds. oh and this all without getting wound modifiers or he needn´t bother.

missile parry wasnt in the book, and even if it is, when was the last time someone not a physad shot an arrow at you???? or a dagger?
stealth 6... can you actually use stealth if it isnt really high??
athletics 6 seems a must for a physad, killing hands is good vs spirits and in stealth missions, when you actually roll for it, since nigh everyone has some kind of unarmed <and if not, they default> an unarmed skill of 6 doesnt kill people in one blow. never mind what you do with killing hands.. you have to connect first, & they get to oppose that.. THEN resist whatever gets through. to reliably kill people unarmed requires skills in the realm or 12 or so...

DS

Uh, check the other skills.

Combine those, DS and see how insane that is. Uber stealth to win Surprise Test. Target cannot use Combat pool or actively defend. Uber melee combat skill and Killing Hands.

I'd personally go the way of Pistol Adept with 35 PPs. ImpReflexes-3 + Quick Strike + IA:Pistols-6 + all of the above crap + Except/Bonus QUI + Smartlink-2 + ReflexRec:Pistols + Enhanced Artwink + MuscleToner-4 + a bunch of other bioware for a no-penalty 10 Armor, always acts first in every CT, has an init of 16+4d6, throws 14 dice with pistols + CP (at least 14), totally surprise-proof (30 dice on Surprise tests), and still retains every sense imaginable, insane physical abilities, plus a huge bunch of special abilities like the Astral Perception, Traceless Walk, etc etc.

Not to mention the fun you could have with a Magician's Path Adept!

[Edit]Didn't notice you don't allow firearms skills, no ware and no MitS powers.

In that case, go the way of the Ambidextrous Flying Ninja Monkey.
Astral Sense, Combat Sense-3, ImpRef-3: 10 PP
IPA:BOD/QUI/STR-3, IA:Edged/Stealth/Athletics-6, PainRes-6, Mystic-4: 20PP
Improved Sense (pick 10), Enhanced Perception-5: 5PP

A samurai will have to take Wired-3 or Boosted-3+Synaptic-2 to match the init, then take Dermal Sheath-1+Plastic Bone Lacing to match the BOD, then MuscleToner+MuscleAug-3 to match the QUI and STR, maxed out cyberears and eyes, DamComp-6, CerebralBoost-2 (for CP and Perception), Artwink+3 Reflex Recs for skills.

Going with Boosted/Synaptic, that's 7.75 Bio + 5 Cyber which would cause major complications, costs around 1.5 million, is unavailable to starting characters, and would still leave the Samurai way underpowered compared to the Adept -- worse armor, worse perception, lot worse skills, worse CP, no Astral Sense. Not to mention that the adept already has most of what he needs to excel right there, add Edged-6 skill + Ambidex + 2 Katanas and he's ready to rock with 18 dice, while the Samurai still needs at least the Smartlink-2 to be useful for anything.[/Edit]

ookay 35 pts for an adept, try this

How I spent

the result:

Body: 9
Quickness: 9
Strength: 12
Charisma: 4
Intellegence: 5
Willpower: 6
Magic: 6
Reaction: 13
Initiative 4D6

Combat pool 13

Skills
Athletics 6 (12)
Stealth 6 (12)
Unarmed 6 (12)
Thrown 6 (12)
Missile 6 (12)
ettiquette 3

bow attack after 2 aim actions from 400m, TN2 18 dice, base attack 16M physical most likely 15 successes, staging up to 16D+5 for the first shot,

You have IA: Missile Weapons listed twice.

I'd use the extra 3 Points for IA: Unarmed (or appropriate MA skill), which it appears is exactly what you've done.

If you're going to use a bow as an Adept, you'd do well to pick up Quick Draw, which pretty much eliminates the Ready Weapon drawback for bows, allowing 2 shots per Initiative Phase instead of only 1.

well fortune I was abiding by the restrictions of the previous post, QD not allowed.