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Wutasumi
I was just curious if anyone has seen any preticularly bad Min/Max combos used, legal or not.
Sabosect
Aspected human sorceror with 1,000,000 nuyen.gif
Tal
Not necessarily min-maxed.

Can't remember the speicifics, but I've seen a troll sammy with well over 40 combat pool...
toturi
Bad Min-Max... is that bad as in very good or bad as in bad?
mrobviousjosh
Troll Close Combat Adept with Killing Hands. They're scary. And yeah, the aspected magician that gets 50 Spell Points from the million and has money left for a foci or two.
Herald of Verjigorm
2nd edition human sorcerer with 1,000,000/45.
GlassJaw
I'm somewhat new to SR but doesn't the 1 mil nuyen somewhat require a bit of min/maxing? I mean isn't the point of that much cash to load up on all sorts of cyber and bioware? Plus, if you have access to some of the expansion books, you can spend a lot of time digging through them. I guess I'm just looking for some opinions on the high-money option.
Wutasumi
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Aspected human sorceror with 1,000,000 nuyen.gif

Whoa! eek.gif
Wow, that is bad. Especialy sence elementals are useless if you have a few sammies.
(Or a good rigger)
Shadow
I made a troll who could do 30S with his Spurs.
Wutasumi
Ok, I HAVE GOT to see THAT!

Starting chara right?
Tanka
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
2nd edition human sorcerer with 1,000,000/45.

Buzz! 1mil nets 50 spell points in 2nd Ed.

*plays 2nd a lot still*
Wutasumi
Second was fun...

HATED the BBB though.
Tanka
I didn't mind the core in it. Save for trying to cram anything and everything in it at one time, though... (Eratta for SSC, updates on all the 1st Ed. books, et cetera.)
Glyph
The one million represents resources, not raw nuyen - it goes towards 'ware, contacts, etc. It is not cheesy in and of itself, any more than taking 30 Attribute points or 50 skill points or being a full mage is. For some archetypes, such as deckers and riggers, it is practically required. For others, such as street sammies, it is highly recommended. For sorcerers, it is really the only option if you want to go the magical foci route.

Some amount of min-maxing is good, since you are creating a criminal specialist, who has been surviving at a dangerous job for a while, who has the potential to break into the big time. I think there is a difference between min-maxing to be good at your function, and min-maxing in a cheesy or game-breaking manner. Roleplaying and min-maxing are not mutually exclusive. In fact, a character who is well-written and built effectively will probably be the most fun, since you can enjoy the roleplaying as well as things like combat or decking. The latter, because Shadowrun IS a very lethal game, where the cold, unforgiving dice are unmoved by your 10-page character background.
Wutasumi
QUOTE (Glyph)
I think there is a difference between min-maxing to be good at your function, and min-maxing in a cheesy or game-breaking manner.

Notice how it says WORST MIN/MAXING EVER.

Hmmm... Which one of these could THAT mean? wink.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph)
The latter, because Shadowrun IS a very lethal game, where the cold, unforgiving dice are unmoved by your 10-page character background.

Unless you worship and Sacrifice to the Dice Gods. eek.gif biggrin.gif
Shadow
QUOTE (Wutasumi)
Ok, I HAVE GOT to see THAT!

Starting chara right?

Pretty much. Dual, dikoted, cyber spurs and a 17 strength, walla.
Tal
-Shudders- That is scary.
DocMortand
indulge a GM who's still learning the ropes of min-maxing - exactly how did you get 17 str as a starting char?
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Aspected human sorceror with 1,000,000 nuyen.gif

That's not necessarily munchy.

I did that once (a mage); justified it in his character background by saying that he was forcibly enrolled in a Mitsuhama thaumaturgical training program and had to break out, and that the experience left him with a personality where he only trusts himself, and that manifested in him only gaining sorcery (because elementals qualify as "help" in his eyes.) And if he does things himself, he needs a wide range of tools, hence the 50 Force points.

See? Not all that munchy.
mmu1
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Oct 14 2004, 11:32 PM)
indulge a GM who's still learning the ropes of min-maxing - exactly how did you get 17 str as a starting char?

Probably troll with max strength + muscle replacement or appropriate bioware (Alpha), bonus attribute point (STR) thrown in for good measure.

Oops... Missed the need for other cyber... I need more practice.
Wutasumi
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Oct 14 2004, 11:32 PM)
indulge a GM who's still learning the ropes of min-maxing - exactly how did you get 17 str as a starting char?

Troll = +4
6 str points added = duh
Muscle replacement 4 = +4
Bonus/exceptional STR = +2
STR enhanced cyberarms = +1

Hell, if I tried, I could make a troll with a STR of 25 easy.
mfb
6 base +4 race +1 exceptional +1 bonus point +4 muscle replacement +1 suprathyroid.

edit: alas, i am beaten. seppuku.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Wutasumi @ Oct 14 2004, 06:31 PM)
I was just curious if anyone has seen any preticularly bad Min/Max combos used, legal or not.

Do you really want examples of terrible Min/Maxing? How can you do a terrible job of Min/Maxing, unless you don't know the rules? Are you wanting examples of people who don't know the rules? Any player who deliberately min-maxes is trying to emphasize his strengths, allowing other characteristics (deliberately chosen) to be weak. With deliberate choice, in order to achieve a certain type of character, how can it ever be terrible? It's just his/her choice. Sometimes choices made for role-playing reasons can look like terrible min-maxing.

That said, I'll give some examples of character creation. You decide if these are terrible.

Maximizing Quickness so Armor can be as high as possible, but only taking a 1 in Body.

Being a gregarious and outgoing player, with great role-playing skills, and then playing a huge cyber troll (charisma 1, no social skills) that wants to talk in every situation.

Taking 1,000,000 nuyen in resources, and spending it all on contacts. Started his first run living on the streets and had to buy his secure vest and a pistol during his first run.

Maximizing Magic (Priority "A") but only taking legal spells (none above Force 2).

Maximizing Magic (Priority "A") but roleplaying the character as not believing he was magical (no Sorcery or Conjuring skills).

I've deliberately done 3 out of 5 of these.
DocMortand
QUOTE (Wutasumi)
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Oct 14 2004, 11:32 PM)
indulge a GM who's still learning the ropes of min-maxing - exactly how did you get 17 str as a starting char?

Troll = +4
6 str points added = duh
Muscle replacement 4 = +4
Bonus/exceptional STR = +2
STR enhanced cyberarms = +1

I hate to ask, but is 17 about the max you can get with starting chars?
Wutasumi
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Oct 14 2004, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (Wutasumi @ Oct 14 2004, 06:31 PM)
I was just curious if anyone has seen any preticularly bad Min/Max combos used, legal or not.

Do you really want examples of terrible Min/Maxing? How can you do a terrible job of Min/Maxing, unless you don't know the rules? Are you wanting examples of people who don't know the rules? Any player who deliberately min-maxes is trying to emphasize his strengths, allowing other characteristics (deliberately chosen) to be weak. With deliberate choice, in order to achieve a certain type of character, how can it ever be terrible? It's just his/her choice.

That said, I'll give some examples of character creation. You decide if these are terrible.

Maximizing Quickness so Armor can be as high as possible, but only taking a 1 in Body.

Being a gregarious and outgoing player, with great role-playing skills, and then playing a huge cyber troll (charisma 1, no social skills) that wants to talk in every situation.

Taking 1,000,000 nuyen in resources, and spending it all on contacts. Started his first run living on the streets and had to buy his secure vest and a pistol during his first run.

Maximizing Magic (Priority "A") but only taking legal spells (none above Force 2).

Maximizing Magic (Priority "A") but roleplaying the character as not believing he was magical (no Sorcery or Conjuring skills).

I've deliberately done 3 out of 5 of these.

By worst, I mean from game balance prespective.

And sadly, like i said, 25 for a troll is about the max.
toturi
Max(6)+ Cyclops(+5) + Muscle Augmentation(+4) + Bonus Attribute(+1) + Suprathyroid Gland(+1) = 17

See? Simple.

Actually, mfb, you aren't beaten. Depending on how you read the rules, the Exceptional may or may not figure in the boosts, so you get the benefit of the doubt. Whereas Wutasumi's Str Enhanced Cyber Limb +1 is definately out, since the cyberlimb Strength replaces the Base Strength(Bonus Attribute and all that) and that, without additional Essense loss, is 4+4+3 = 11.

QUOTE
25 for a troll is about the max


Almost but not quite. Base Troll(Cyclops metavariant) 6 + 6 = 12

Exceptional Attibute - RML + 1

Ghoul + 1

RML is now 14. Attribute Boost Maximum is 2 x RML = 28. Null sheen

EDIT: Fortune is right. Cyclops Strength bonus is 6, see below.
Wutasumi
Look, I'm going to clear this up for once and fucking all.

Worst min maxing isn't refering to idiots, it's reffering to people who do cheap shit like 25 STR troll with a katana that now EASILY does D+ damage.
Fortune
QUOTE (toturi)
Max(6)+ Cyclops(+5) + Muscle Augmentation(+4) + Bonus Attribute(+1) + Suprathyroid Gland(+1) = 17

If he was an Adept, he'd still have PPs left for Increased Strength or Strength Boost. biggrin.gif
toturi
Yes, I know. My Edited post on the subject touches on the point you made.
Fortune
QUOTE (toturi)
Yes, I know. My Edited post on the subject touches on the point you made.

Yeah, but you could add the Adept portion to the bio-bunny you made for an even better brute.
toturi
Et tu, Brut?
Fortune
Ok...depending on how a few rules work (no books at hand)

Troll (Cyclops)
Strength.............6
Race..................+6 (I'm sure Cyclops is +6)
Exceptional Strength Edge...+1
Bonus Attribute Point Edge..+1 (some people rule that these two can be used like this)
Muscle Augmentation....+4
Suprathyroid Gland.......+1 (combined, these take 3 Bio-Index (-1.5 Magic - Cultured they are 2.25 BI, or -1.125 Magic)
Increased Attribute: Strength Adept Power...+4 (only up to magic rating - costs 2 PP)
Attribute Boost: Strength Adept Power...+4 up to +8 (depending on whether this power follows the rules as above - cost .25 PP/lvl)

So we (possibly) have a Strength of 27-31 (more if Geased!). smile.gif
toturi
Fortune:

The permanent boosts from Bio and Incr. Attribute can only be total 7(boosts cannot exceed Racial Max)
Glyph
Shadowrun is a game where dice contests play a big role in things, so even more than high Attributes, you can min-max by slinging tons and tons of dice.

Examples:

> Gnome sorcerer with Bonus Attribute Point/Willpower for 9 Willpower starting out (albinism would give one more point, but is really not worth the disadvantages), shamanic, Dragonslayer Totem, manabolt: 6, fetish for lower Drain, and two manabolt foci, both at rating: 6. He slings 21 dice with those puppies, before adding Spell Pool. He also has a low Drain to soak and 9 dice to do it with.

> Night one adept who takes a hit on 1 point of Magic to get a smartlink II and cybereyes with vision magnification (both alphaware), enhanced articulation, and a reflex recorder for the Ares Alpha. His skill is assault rifles/Ares Alpha: 5/7. His powers are blind fighting, improved ability/assault rifles: 5, and two more power points of powers. He rolls 14 dice and up to 7 Combat Pool dice for his Ares Alpha, which is tricked out for max recoil compensation.

> Dwarf adept of the magical way (you need A resources, so it only works on the point system) with powers of magical ability: 3 and improved ability/edged weapons: 6. He has edged weapons: 6, enough Pentjak Silat to get close combat for edged weapons, and the ambidexterity Edge at 6 or 8 points. Add a reach: 0 weapon focus/Force: 6 (such as a kris or katar) - bound with your 18 spell points, and this sicko rolls 27 dice before Combat Pool, ignoring reach penalties.
Fortune
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 15 2004, 03:57 PM)
The permanent boosts from Bio and Incr. Attribute can only be total 7(boosts cannot exceed Racial Max)

Magic is not subject to anything likethat rule, though Bioware, being counted as natural, is subject to the rule that it can never increase an Attrubute past the Maximum Attribute Rating. I only have +5 in modifications from bio (I would chuck in another +2 if I could find it!). You'll not that the troll's Maximum Attribute Rating is (6+6+1 x 1.5 round up) 20, which can then be modified upwards via Magic. smile.gif
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Glyph)
... and two manabolt foci, both at rating: 6 ...

I've never allowed a character to use two Manabolt foci at once. That's just my preference. A Power Focus, a Combat Spell Category Focus, and a Manabolt Focus, okay. Perhaps make a Force 1 Ally spirit, for one more die. wink.gif
mrobviousjosh
I don't know how bad this is but, at least for impact armor, taking 12 points of Mystic Armor, which stacks with other armor, makes for hella impact protection; though it's kinda costly using priority B and all.
Tanka
QUOTE (Wutasumi)
Look, I'm going to clear this up for once and fucking all.

Worst min maxing isn't refering to idiots, it's reffering to people who do cheap shit like 25 STR troll with a katana that now EASILY does D+ damage.

Why a katana? There are worse things. No-dachi, for example. Dikote it and you have a (Str + 3)D weapon with Rch 2, making your Troll-type Rch 3 for combat purposes.
toturi
I think 12 points of Impact pretty useless, given that you still need to stage the damage down.
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 15 2004, 03:57 PM)
The permanent boosts from Bio and Incr. Attribute can only be total 7(boosts cannot exceed Racial Max)

Magic is not subject to anything likethat rule, though Bioware, being counted as natural, is subject to the rule that it can never increase an Attrubute past the Maximum Attribute Rating. I only have +5 in modifications from bio (I would chuck in another +2 if I could find it!). You'll not that the troll's Maximum Attribute Rating is (6+6+1 x 1.5 round up) 20, which can then be modified upwards via Magic. smile.gif

I think you might want to rethink that. Magic boosts are also natural, Attribute Boost is an exception since it is specifically stated that you can get up to 2xRML.
Fortune
I have no canon source, but I pulled this from the FAQ...

QUOTE
Q: Can Increased Attribute spells raise an attribute over the Racial Maximum?
A: Yes. It's a magic boost and is not subject to physical limitations.


I know the question specifically refers to spells, but the answer makes a general statement. I'm sure someone else will come up with a real quote.
Cochise
Just my 0.02 and more a side note:

The adept power increased physical attribute has some serious problems with wording. It uses the term "maximum", usually refering to racial maximums opposed to racial modified limit, but it's not quite clear which of the two limits actually is meant. Nor is there an explicit capping of that power within the text.
However there are three things that at least to me make it the better choice to limit that power to the racial maximum and have the doubling of costs occur at racial modified limit:

1. Like bioware, this power is considered as "natural" and it explicitly has impact on the karmic cost for attribute increases. So this might be taken as indication that this power could be capped at racial maximums as well (at least if you consider bioware to cap there)

2. The power cost doubles at that heavily argued limit. Now given the fact that according to the rules, a natural attribute normally should not exceed the racial modified limit except for rare occasions at least I'd say that it's more reasonable to have the cost doubling effect at the racial modified limit.

3. The attribute boost power and it's effect. The maximum attribute value attribute boost can provide is double of the racial modified limit, while the racial maximum is 1.5 the racial modified limit. Now to me it would look rather stupid if the enhanced physical attribute power was able to exceed the limit of that other power (which then would become more or less useless) and if the cost for that permanent increase was doubled just between that 1.5 and 2.0 margin (which is rather small for most metas except for trolls)
Morphling The Pretender
My fav min-max: A liberal application for BeCKs.

An adept with 6 in Edged Weapons, 6 in Improved Ability (Edged Weapons), a weapon focus level 6 katana (bonded with your karma at character creation) and Dikoted, Ambidexterity 8, paired off with any edged weapon you desire...

Makes for (Str+4)S with 24 dice behind it... without combat pool. And reach 1.

I don't have my resources on me, so I don't remember how much Karma this will leave you with. This is great because it defaults to the munchie argument: "It says that, since Adepts don't have spell points or karma at creation, they can't bond weapon foci. But now they DO have Karma!"
ES_Riddle
I think one of the biggest min/max mage things you can do is be a dwarf sorcerer from the gator tradition. Take resources A, and spend it on a mix of more spell points and foci. Included among the foci you should have an Increased Attribtue (Willpower) sustaining focus and a combat focus. Boost your Will to around 10 and keep it there, and then start chucking around simultaneous Force 6, Serious Damage Stunballs like it ain't no thing. If you limit yourself to two per turn, then you can put around 10 dice in each one and resist the drain with willpower alone.
Wutasumi
One of the bigger abuses I saw was the Sum to Ten rules in Second Edition.

Human=0
Non Magic = 0
Skills= 3 = 40
Rescorcuses = 3 = 400,000
Attributes = 4 = 30

Though, this is only REALLY bad if you don't use BeCKS.
mfb
what's so abusive about that...?
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (mfb)
what's so abusive about that...?

I'd like to know too. I've made worse using the points system:

1,000,000 nuyen (30 points)
30 attributes (60 points)
40 skills (40 points)
Human (0 points)

And that's not even bad either, for a street sam.
Nikoli
that's 130 pt build, so, what are the flaws you took?
Wutasumi
It's only bad if you use priorities.

You see, alot of GMs let people switch Sum to Ten with Priorities not realizing that you can make much cheaper characters.

BeCKS still takes the cake as the most easy to abuse system.
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