A natural 20 in d20 is only an auto-success on to "to hit" rolls and saving throws, it doesn't apply to skills, and the 5% chance of auto-success is no big deal, a SR character with a skill of 6 has a 5% chance of making one success against TN 17 - that's not automatically going to succeed at everything combat-related, but it's damn close.

That said, I doubt you're going to be able to recreate the SR feel using d20... I like both, but I don't see the point in using one to play the other.

Still, if you absolutely must try, look at d20 Modern / Future as a starting point. They're designed to be more gritty than standard D&D.

Not only what you mentioned, but there's the whole level and class-based stuff to deal with, as well.

Really, that's been stated before? I guess I must have refuted it before, too, in that case. No, that doesn't make the hitpoints problem go away. Mid/High level runners, especially once they've got some decent gear and ware, can rack up a Fort save high enough to still make them all but invulnerable to small arms fire.

Lowering the limit of Massive Damage doesn't help when the Fortitude Save DC is still low enough for more powerful characters to manage it every time. But if you make the Save DC higher, the mage-types don't stand a chance of surviving any decent hit from rifles, shotguns, etc. Massive Damage starting from maybe 5 with a DC of Damage Caused just might work, but that'll still leave unarmored mid/high level trolls invulnerable to anything but the BFGs.

The hitpoint problem is taken away by using the VP/WP system without VPs -- the "ultralethal/ultrarealistic" system mentioned in some d20 books. That way your hitpoints don't increase unless you increase your Constitution or get feats/magic/ware that directly increases your WP (HP).

Wow is that brutal. I think that that will result in a lot of dead level 3 characters. Magic missile from a level 3 caster averages 7 damage. Geeking the mage becomes even more important in that setup than it is in SR since you will go down in two shots.

Let's be silly here. One round, one success, base damage 20D, Body 24, 15 Armor. We're not going to bother Dodging, because that's a different matter entirely.

5D. That means nine successes are needed to stage to nothing. Troll will expect eight successes, and will still take a Light. This seems absurd until you realize that the armor on the Troll is greater than the Power of most sniper rifles. The troll is probably as wide as he is tall, counting all gear. Furthermore, if we drop the armor by a single point to 14, suddenly the Troll is taking S damage.

I'd like to see how your troll stops the panther round while still moving.

~J

He said he was being silly to prove the point. A troll's not going to stop a Panther assault round unless he gets fantastically lucky on the die rolls and has ridiculous stats on top of that. And that assumes the shooter only scored a single success on the attack.

And I'm not saying you need to care. But if someone wants to keep the balance and feel of the game the same when crossing over to d20 (if indeed such a thing is possible), hit points simply have to go because they are less deadly.

My problem with the d20 system is that it's designed to emulate video games (which, admittedly, the original D&D helped inspire). There is almost nothing believable in the system itself. It relies on a win-or-lose dice mechanic with no margin of success, it relies on levels and classes (even the so-called "classless systems" still use 'em). And it's wound mechanic (whether hit points or vitality points; they're the same damn thing, only on a different scale) is a dead-or-alive mechanic.

I think the main reason people dislike the d20 system isn't so much because it's popular, it's because they don't *like* the mindless videogame style of gaming. They prefer games that at least try to be somewhat believable, complete with a lack of reliance on two-dimensional and ill-conceived classes, include different levels of success, and rely on a wound mechanic that actually causes problems while wounded.

While Shadowrun's system definitely has its fault, it reflects reality and believability far more than the d20 system ever could.

Of course one of the charms of Shadowrun's system is that it's multiple systems rolled up in one. If you get bored with the magic system, you can start playing a decker, rigger, or sammy and, lo' and behold, you're practically playing under a completely different yet similar system. That's just cool, even if overly complex.

If people prefer to stick with d20 games, more power to them -- but they're the ones losing out the more exhilirating and rewarding gaming experiences. And to be frank, I'd much rather see Shadowrun stay in a niche market than have it saturated with the types of players that are attracted to the d20 system.

Yeah. It's close-mindedness. It's not like any of us who hate the idea of d20 Shadowrun have played D&D for TWENTY FRAGGING YEARS or anything.

No you're the one who is wrong here: Look at this thread to find out why (it's not directly aimed at explaining the difference between ranged and melee, but ranged attacks are explained in detail).

I'm sorry, but there is nothing you can do for them. They will have to be shaved, sterillised and destroyed.

You might try one more shot at explaining to them. It sometimes helps if you kill one of their number first as an example. Otherwise, they fully deserve their punishment, of a lifetime of D20 gaming.

Yeah, because I'm a 10th-level Smart Hero/5th-level Tough Hero/3rd-level Charismatic Hero/2nd-level Fast Hero person myself, and I'll totally stomp all over a puny little 1st-level Dedicated Hero who stands no chance whatsoever of defeating me with his pitiful BAB and skill selection. Just like in real life!

Just like in real life? Why do so many gamers try to make this comparison? I've not ever played an RPG that was anything like RL, and I simply wouldn't want to play such a game. Hell, I can't figure out the whole Sim craze. Okay fine, so D20 SR wouldn't be SR... so what? D20 can be played in the SR world, using D20 mechanics, and that is better (IMHO) than being stuck with only playing D20 hack'n'slash in a fantasy enviroment for the balance of your RPG career. Assuming you like your friends and want to keep gaming with them, and assuming you care about them having fun (as much as or more than you do about yourself having fun) then you try to find a happy medium.

Sheesh.

That sounds pretty good, what's the tech level? One could always mix and match, but...

D20 already has a subdual damage system, I think. So no need to add that. I personally like Constitution working directly as your Hit Points more, because with just CON bonuses to HP, you won't see the kind of variation as you see with the Body attribute in SR.
And that's probably how I'd run Drain in D20, if I had to.

It's a superhero game (although the mechanics are applicable to any time period or power level), so the tech level is pretty abstract - you'd still have to use some other setting (d20 Future, maybe?) for the gear, although some of the superpowers could probably be stolen and re-labeled as cyberware.